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19:42:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:42:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
19:42:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:42:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:42:59 <trackbot> Date: 24 January 2017
19:43:34 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m111076a5138536589c06d9b5c35ffb51 Meeting Number: 641 707 405 Next Meeting 31-Jan-2017, 20:00 UTC
19:44:23 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:44:30 <clown> agenda: this
19:44:42 <clown> agenda+ (All) update on AX API GH-ISSUEs
19:45:01 <clown> agenda+ GH-ISSUE-513: (All) Mapping of role="region" when it doesn't have an accessible name.
19:45:49 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1707 (Joseph/All) pending final review:  reworked mappings of roles none and presentation.
19:46:05 <clown> agenda+ (All) Specifying AAPI UIA interface in focus events table
19:46:15 <clown> agenda+ Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
19:46:23 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
19:46:34 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
19:46:42 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
19:46:48 <clown> agenda+ be done
20:00:16 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:01:17 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:23 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:04:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:04:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:07:07 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:07:07 <Zakim> agendum 1. "(All) update on AX API GH-ISSUEs" taken up [from clown]
20:07:19 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/513
20:07:42 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/513#issuecomment-273817749
20:07:52 <joanie> JS: Joanie raised this issue against Core AAM.
20:08:01 <joanie> JS: It's about role region when it doesn't have a label.
20:08:11 <joanie> JS: In that case, it shouldn't be treated as a landmark.
20:08:15 <joanie> RS: That's true.
20:08:26 <joanie> JS: But the Core AAM doesn't handle that.
20:08:30 <joanie> RS: It should.
20:08:44 <joanie> JS: Agreed. See the comment in the URL above.
20:08:59 <joanie> JS: I've since opened an issue against HTML AAM.
20:09:17 <joanie> JS: So that they treat regions without labels as if they were divs.
20:09:23 <joanie> RS: I thought they fixed that.
20:09:54 <joanie> JS: What they did is left it up to screen readers to do this check and filter.
20:10:00 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/79
20:10:19 <joanie> RS: Maybe because of JAWS. I think JAWS has such a check.
20:10:30 <joanie> JS: The URL above is for the issue I filed.
20:10:40 <joanie> JS: I also mentioned you (Rich).
20:12:28 <joanie> JD: Regarding Rich's comment that JAWS's check was why HTML AAM took this approach: You are correct, JAWS's check was explicitly cited by Steve in rswponse to my comment.
20:14:20 <joanie> JS: So what I'll put in the Core AAM is to map ARIA role region to the native host language semantic if there is no accessible name.
20:14:50 <joanie> JS: And section without an explicit role as github issue 79.
20:15:03 <joanie> JS: Where do we put the action for the test item.
20:15:10 <joanie> s/item./item?/
20:16:53 <joanie> RS: I have been working on writing test cases.
20:17:09 <clown> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#region
20:17:43 <joanie> JD: Since this is Core AAM and not the ARIA spec itself, should we put these sorts of tests in a separate area or otherwise make it clearly marked?
20:18:04 <joanie> RS: I'll make a special section for it on the wiki (URL above).
20:18:34 <joanie> RS: If you look at the harness page now, there's a special section for Core AAM.
20:18:34 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/514
20:19:40 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-form
20:20:51 <joanie> JS: There is someone from TPG (Matthew) who has opened the above issue for the similar case with forms.
20:20:56 <clown> "IA2_ROLE_FORM + object attribute xml-roles:form"
20:21:10 <clown> ATK:  ROLE_LANDMARK + object attribute xml-roles:form
20:23:04 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-form
20:23:08 <joanie> JD: So clarification: The above text from Joseph is in the case of role="form" regardless of whether there is a name or not?
20:23:21 <joanie> JS: Yes.
20:23:43 <joanie> JD: So this really is just a different flavor of the region without a name situation?
20:23:46 <joanie> JS: Yes.
20:23:53 <joanie> JS: Do we want to solve it now?
20:24:38 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:24:57 <clown> JD:  so, a region with a name is a landmark, but a region without a name is not..
20:25:21 <clown> RS:  There's a reason for that because people were making regions as if they were navigable chunks.
20:25:48 <clown> JD:  I don't understand what is different about a form.
20:26:13 <clown> RS: It's different because there is structured data associated with a form that get submitted.
20:26:24 <clown> RS:  that is not true of a region.
20:27:03 <clown> JD:  There were cases where forms were badly used, say when the entire page is a form.
20:27:22 <clown> RS:  So?  You could be the entire landmark on the entire page, and be done.
20:27:34 <clown> RS:  Also, you could give a name to the form, and it would still be bad.
20:28:05 <clown> JD: Even if we don't fix this in the Core-AAM, it should be addressed in the HTML-AAM
20:28:47 <clown> JS:  Matthew has opened such an issue against the HTML-AAM
20:28:58 <clown> RS:  I don't agree with Matthew here.
20:29:12 <clown> JD:  I do agree with him with respect to the <form> element.
20:30:05 <clown> JD: If there are a lot of nameless <section> elements, orca says, "region, region, region, …."
20:30:48 <clown> JD: I've added a hack to take care of this for <section>, and I think I would do the same for <form>
20:31:27 <clown> RS:  If we are talking about a form, then you still want to indicate that it is a form.  It has special functionality that needs to be communicate.
20:31:50 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:32:08 <clown> JS:  BTW, in the the core-aam mappings its only UIA and ATK/AT-SPI that maps role form to landmark.
20:32:34 <joanie> JS: So the only ones we really have to worry about is UIA and ATK.
20:32:40 <joanie> RS: For?
20:32:52 <joanie> JS: The form role.
20:33:24 <joanie> JS: How do you know you're in a form in AXAPI?
20:33:36 <joanie> JD: Maybe there's a subrole?
20:33:51 <joanie> JS: Not mentioned in the Core AAM, but there might be one.
20:34:41 <joanie> RS: We should be able to check.
20:36:50 <joanie> JS: Let me try.
20:42:21 <joanie> JD: Should we open an issue against Core AAM to verify the AXAPI subrole, etc.?
20:42:39 <joanie> JS: We have tests for that, but I may look into it more.
20:42:51 <joanie> JS: What should we do about form?
20:43:11 <joanie> s/form?/form for ATK?/
20:43:36 <joanie> JD: I'm fine with either, but I want the mappings to reflect what the expected screen reader (i.e. Orca) behavior is.
20:44:03 <joanie> JD: If Orca should treat it as a landmark, expose it as ROLE_LANDMARK.
20:44:06 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:44:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "GH-ISSUE-513: (All) Mapping of role="region" when it doesn't have an accessible name." taken up [from clown]
20:46:30 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:46:30 <Zakim> agendum 1. "(All) update on AX API GH-ISSUEs" taken up [from clown]
20:46:44 <joanie> JS: There were a bunch of AXAPI issues.
20:47:05 <joanie> JS: We went though many of them last time.
20:47:24 <joanie> JS: The decision was to do the rest via testing to reveal the answer.
20:47:30 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/459
20:47:47 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/f4c807710bf1131aa3f460b0719e3aa996dc0f3d
20:47:54 <joanie> JS: Also, since Joanie has to do the WebKitGtk implementation anyway, she might be able to implement anything which is not yet implemented for Safari.
20:48:03 <joanie> JS: I have closed issue 459.
20:48:05 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/464
20:48:30 <joanie> JS: I have also closed issue 464 (related to aria-roledescription with an empty string)
20:48:47 <joanie> JS: This condition is not explicitly mapped, other than as an author error.
20:48:59 <joanie> JS: This will also be revealed through testing.
20:49:09 <joanie> JS: Any thoughts on any of that?
20:49:22 <joanie> RS: I don't think they wanted to see it mapped.
20:49:31 <joanie> RS: Matt and Joanie were very clear about that.
20:49:39 <joanie> RS: I think Bryan felt the same way as well.
20:49:46 <clown> <div aria-roledescription="button">
20:49:58 <joanie> RS: I understand their reasoning, and since I don't live with it every day, I'll defer to them.
20:50:31 <joanie> JS: Is the above valid as a test case?
20:51:04 <joanie> JD: But I thought you said issue 464 was about a roledescription value that was an empty string.
20:51:24 <joanie> JS: Ah, so this is another concern mentioned by James in this issue.
20:51:34 <joanie> RS: I can see James' point.
20:52:23 <joanie> RS: And the assumption is that we will have one-to-one correspondence between native elements and ARIA roles.
20:52:27 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-roledescription
20:52:38 <joanie> RS: We don't yet have that. This is one of the main reasons we're planning on an ARIA 1.2.
20:52:39 <clown> "The element to which aria-roledescription is applied does not have a valid WAI-ARIA role or does not have an implicit WAI-ARIA role semantic."
20:54:17 <joanie> JS: The above (from the spec) indicates that the meter element without a role specified cannot use aria-roledescription.
20:59:22 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163647
21:00:07 <joanie> JD: I agree with James' suggestion that the concern is things like <div aria-roledescription="button">.
21:00:48 <joanie> JD: Because the above maps to ROLE_SECTION, so Orca has no way of knowing it's a button.
21:01:32 <joanie> JD: In the case of the meter element, I know it's ROLE_LEVEL_BAR, and thus don't need an explicit or implicit ARIA role.
21:02:22 <joanie> JD: If we weren't in CR, I'd want to make the modification to the spec to make the restriction apply to just generic elements (as James suggested).
21:02:33 <joanie> RS: Agreed. But we're in CR. We can mark it at risk.
21:02:41 <joanie> RS: Do we want to mark it at risk?
21:02:45 <joanie> JS: No.
21:02:51 <joanie> JS: I want a test case.
21:03:01 <joanie> JS: Do you really think we'll not have enough implementations.
21:03:14 <joanie> s/implementations./implementations?/
21:03:31 <joanie> JS: I don't think Safari will implement this restriction; but what about Chrome and Firefox?
21:04:06 <joanie> JS: Unless we believe they won't either, I think it's premature to mark this as at-risk.
21:04:23 <joanie> JS: I'll test this in Firefox, at least.
21:05:51 <joanie> JD: Test nightly.
21:06:40 <joanie> JD: We won't know, however, if the exposure (e.g. via object attribute) is the result of refusal to implement, or the result of the default expose-everything via object attribute.
21:21:24 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:21:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:21:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:21:38 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
21:21:42 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop