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15:58:42 <behnam> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
15:58:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/17-alreq-minutes.html behnam
15:58:45 <behnam> RRSAgent, please set logs world-visible
15:59:02 <behnam> Meeting: ALReq Weekly Meeting, 17 January 2017
15:59:38 <behnam> agenda+ Justification; Najib, Mostafa, Behnam.
15:59:52 <behnam> agenda+ Changing document title to include "script"; Richard, Behnam
16:00:00 <behnam> agenda+ Status review of action items [6]
16:00:04 <behnam> agenda+ Review of GitHub issues [7] and pull requests
16:00:15 <behnam> Chair: Behnam
16:02:03 <mostafa> mostafa has joined #alreq
16:03:04 <najib> najib has joined #alreq
16:03:52 <najib> Warm and sunny hello from Rabat
16:04:24 <mostafa> Hello.
16:04:41 <behnam> present+
16:04:46 <mostafa> present+
16:04:49 <behnam> Zakim, who is here?
16:04:49 <Zakim> Present: behnam, mostafa
16:04:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see najib, mostafa, RRSAgent, Zakim, behnam, r12a, trackbot
16:05:23 <behnam> ScribeNick: mostafa
16:05:23 <mostafa> ScribeNick: mostafa
16:05:45 <najib> present+ najib
16:06:00 <behnam> agenda?
16:06:51 <behnam> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/57
16:06:56 <mostafa> Behnam: Najib has something for the discussion of justification
16:07:39 <behnam> Google Drive folder of images from Najib: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4AzjidUPzvZQUl1QnJaZDF5dFU
16:10:13 <mostafa> Najib: These images are from some old books from libraries in @@@.
16:10:30 <mostafa> … These are some examples of justification.
16:11:24 <mostafa> … You wish to not justify verses in lines in paragraph.
16:11:30 <mostafa> … It is not possible to do with CSS.
16:11:40 <mostafa> … Now it justifies the whole paragraph.
16:12:05 <mostafa> q+
16:13:23 <najib> Do you think it is a desirable property to not justify a part of a paragraph
16:13:33 <najib> inline part
16:16:38 <mostafa> Mostafa: The whole idea seems strange to me. Because a main goal in justification is to keep the look of the lines similar.
16:16:53 <mostafa> … To avoid too much space or kashida in one place and less in other places.
16:17:01 <mostafa> … This suggestion is against that goal.
16:17:14 <najib_> najib_ has joined #alreq
16:18:15 <mostafa> Najib: Generally, a quote from Quran is set in a different style that the rest of the text.
16:18:40 <mostafa> … And generally they don’t apply justification to that.
16:19:06 <mostafa> Behnam: What happens when a quote spans multiple lines, including lines that only include that Quran quote?
16:19:21 <mostafa> Najib: We should consult the books that do this for this question.
16:20:49 <mostafa> q+
16:21:37 <mostafa> … It is very popular in books that talk about Quran. There are many examples of this.
16:23:11 <mostafa> Richard: In the example with the red extract, I’m not sure but it seems like there is some spacing applied, even though it is very small.
16:23:36 <mostafa> … And in other examples they have some justifications for the verses in the forms of elongation or alternative forms.
16:23:41 <mostafa> q?
16:25:06 <mostafa> q-
16:25:29 <mostafa> Mostafa: What makes it harder is that a different font is used for these quotes.
16:25:40 <mostafa> … So these changes may just be a side effect of that.
16:26:03 <mostafa> … It makes it harder to extract the intetion of the designer.
16:26:42 <mostafa> … But if that’s a deliberate choice by designers to limit justification in quotes, we have to mention it as something that is used in some contexts.
16:27:45 <mostafa> Behnam: About mentioning that we need to say something about it or not, we need more examples to find a pattern and make a decision about it.
16:28:08 <mostafa> Najib: Maybe this is for emphasis.
16:28:43 <mostafa> … I saw another example (not in the images) where terms where in a specific style and their definitions in another style.
16:29:07 <najib> s/where/were/
16:29:30 <mostafa> Behnam: I agree that this is a kind of emphasis. But the question is are there any general that can define these common practices?
16:30:14 <mostafa> Najib: We can have this discussion when we have more example and information on this.
16:30:16 <mostafa> Behnam: +1
16:31:45 <mostafa> Richard: In my mind, the way to apply these limitations in Arabic would be like it is applied in InDesign: you select a range of text and apply different spacings and values for that range.
16:32:07 <mostafa> … Unlike in English where you apply the same setting regardless of text and font.
16:33:49 <mostafa> … In Arabic we have much more tools for use here. So they can be used with more control.
16:34:22 <mostafa> Behnam: I agree with wath Richard said. But I think we require more examples of this.
16:36:29 <mostafa> Richard: For browsers we will need to apply justification settings to bits of texts in paragraphs.
16:36:47 <mostafa> … I guess we will end of with having some properties for Arabic in CSS.
16:36:52 <najib> q+
16:37:45 <mostafa> Najib: In CSS I’ve seen two properties: text-align and justify. “justify” is a new one.
16:37:46 <najib> q-
16:38:02 <mostafa> … For “justify” we can select different justification methods.
16:38:36 <mostafa> Richard: The naming of these properties is confusing. The “justify” is mainly added for far east justification methods.
16:39:24 <mostafa> … We might want something to define spacing and other justification methods.
16:39:29 <najib> +1 to Richard for some properties for Arabic in CSS.
16:42:06 <mostafa> Mostafa: The way I see is that there are many more tools for justification for Arabic than in Latin.
16:42:30 <mostafa> … Obviously, the first step is for the browsers to recognize and use these methods for Arabic justification.
16:42:49 <mostafa> … And ideally the next step is to have CSS properties to control these justification methods.
16:43:01 <najib> +1
16:46:03 <mostafa> Najib: Some images are about poems. A lot of tatweel is used in their justification.
16:46:25 <mostafa> … Such justification in normal paragraphs is not desirable but it is possible in poems.
16:47:43 <mostafa> Behnam: In one of the images three lines of poems are shorter than the next two. Do you know why is that?
16:48:24 <mostafa> Najib: It is a music poem and the music in those three lines differs with the music of the next two lines.
16:48:30 <mostafa> … That’s a style of writing.
16:48:58 <najib> s/those/first/
16:57:13 <mostafa> q+
16:59:07 <mostafa> q-
16:59:41 <mostafa> Najib: In one of the images the last line looks unbalanced, because they rest of the lines have tatweel for justification and the last line does not.
17:00:04 <mostafa> … I guess the same justification should be applied to the last line of the paragraph to make it look like the rest of the paragraph.
17:01:04 <mostafa> Mostafa: Even if we do that we will still have difference situation and justification in the next paragraph. Also, usually justification is applied line by line, not the whole paragraphs.
17:03:05 <najib> Is it right to have a requirement that the last line should be "spaced" or "tatweeled" the same way as the rest of the paragraph?
17:05:03 <mostafa> … We can progress on this if we find examples in real world.
17:05:12 <mostafa> Najib: Examples from the books are all good.
17:05:29 <mostafa> … The problem only happens in digital tools.
17:06:30 <behnam> Action for Najib to collect more examples for Justification rules and patterns
17:06:30 <trackbot> Error finding 'for'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/users>.
17:06:37 <behnam> Action Najib to collect more examples for Justification rules and patterns
17:06:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-81 - Collect more examples for justification rules and patterns [on Najib Tounsi - due 2017-01-24].
17:07:04 <behnam> Action Behnam to collect more examples for Justification rules and patterns
17:07:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-82 - Collect more examples for justification rules and patterns [on Behnam Esfahbod - due 2017-01-24].
17:07:17 <behnam> agenda?
17:08:09 <mostafa> Behnam: Richard discussed the idea of having the word “script” in the title.
17:08:41 <mostafa> Richard: I brought it up because some people were confused by our title and asked us to make it more clear.
17:09:00 <mostafa> … We have the same situation with the Chinese document.
17:11:43 <mostafa> … People didn’t realise that we cover Persian as well.
17:12:12 <mostafa> Behnam: Changing the title to “Requirements for Arabic Text Layout” does not solve the problem then.
17:13:04 <najib> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/88#issuecomment-272485955
17:14:27 <mostafa> … Shervin had some comment on this issue. Maybe we should wait for him to hear his comment.
17:14:28 <najib> s/https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/88#issuecomment-272485955//
17:15:26 <mostafa> Richard: On a side note, instead of leaving a “+1” comment we should use Emoji reactions.
17:15:27 <mostafa> q+
17:15:41 <behnam> ack mostafa
17:17:25 <mostafa> Mostafa: I don’t care about which wording we chose, so if the current title is confusing, I agree with adding the “script” word. I read Shervin’s comment saying that it is clear in the text, but there is no problem with being clear in the title too.
17:17:40 <mostafa> … But like Behnam said, we might want to hear Shervin’s idea as well.
17:18:33 <mostafa> Behnam: I left a comment for Shervin to hear his idea about why suggesting to use “Arabic Text” instead of “Arabic Script”.
17:20:03 <behnam> agenda?
17:20:40 <behnam> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues
17:21:22 <behnam> https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/open
17:22:01 <behnam> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarnegar_(word_processor)
17:24:38 <najib> Is it available easily?
17:28:01 <behnam> rrsagent, please publish the minutes
17:28:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/17-alreq-minutes.html behnam
17:28:18 <behnam> RRSAgent, bye
17:28:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items