IRC log of dap on 2017-01-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-dap-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs world
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Zakim, this will be DAP
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ok, trackbot
14:56:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device and Sensors Working Group Teleconference
14:56:34 [trackbot]
Date: 12 January 2017
14:56:52 [fjh]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2017Jan/0001.html
14:56:57 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: das agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2017Jan/0001.html
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Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
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Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
14:57:41 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements
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Present+ Andrey_Logvinov
15:05:26 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
15:05:43 [fjh]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
15:06:06 [wanming]
Present+ Wanming_Lin
15:06:54 [fjh]
dom: have activated github digest notifications into list, nobody needs to do anything special
15:07:08 [dom]
Topic: Minutes approval
15:07:18 [fjh]
Approve minutes from 15 December 2016
15:07:19 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Dec/att-0007/minutes-2016-12-15.html
15:07:20 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 15 December 2016 are approved
15:07:24 [dom]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 15 December 2016 are approved https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Dec/att-0007/minutes-2016-12-15.html
15:07:34 [dom]
Topic: Shelving Network Service Discovery
15:07:35 [fjh]
CfC to shelve completed - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2017Jan/0000.html
15:07:43 [dom]
Frederick: CfC completed, WG Note published, home page updated
15:08:00 [dom]
Topic: Generic Sensor API
15:08:15 [dom]
Frederick: probably nothing worth discussing without Tobie on the call
15:08:36 [dom]
... Tobie was planning to do a bunch of work based on the garbage collection issue that was raised
15:08:47 [dom]
Topic: Wake Lock API
15:08:53 [dom]
Dom: reviewed
15:08:57 [dom]
Andrey: and merged
15:09:07 [dom]
... I have started the implementation of the new API in Chromium
15:09:32 [dom]
Dom: should we ping the TAG to let them know about the refactoring of the API
15:09:38 [dom]
Andrey: yes
15:09:49 [fjh]
https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/
15:10:36 [dom]
Dom: I'll ping them, putting Andrey in the loop
15:10:44 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to let the TAG know about the updated Wake Lock spec
15:10:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-783 - Let the tag know about the updated wake lock spec [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2017-01-19].
15:11:12 [dom]
Andrey: note that ReSpec has been updated, raising new warnings
15:11:48 [dom]
Dom: indeed; my other WG has been affected too; a bit annoyed by that change
15:12:07 [dom]
... but can help fixing bugs if anybody needs help
15:12:37 [dom]
close ACTION-782
15:12:37 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-782.
15:12:44 [dom]
Topic: Generic Sensor API
15:13:00 [dom]
Tobie: had a long meeting with the Intel implementors on Tuesday
15:13:32 [dom]
... goal is to release generic sensor, ambient light and the motion sensors in the main Chrome version pretty soon
15:13:40 [dom]
... which means I need fixing lots of stuff pretty quickly
15:13:46 [dom]
... we identified 4 areas that need work:
15:13:57 [dom]
... - garbage collection (which is leading to large API change, hopefully by tomorrow)
15:14:23 [dom]
... - open privacy & security issues that need non-normative additions (no clear timeframe)
15:15:23 [dom]
... - the permission model - but the editor has been on paternity leave, and there are still a lot of fluctuations in it
15:15:58 [dom]
... right now you have to add permissions to the main permission api, which isn't great, but not sure we can avoid it for now
15:16:18 [dom]
... - reporting mode issue which we discussed last time
15:16:49 [dom]
... there are disagreements and lack of clarity on whether there are or will be "push" sensors in shipping devices
15:17:19 [fjh]
q+ to ask about question of pull versus push
15:17:20 [dom]
... which might affect whether or not and when developers can set the reporting mode
15:17:41 [dom]
... also, there are platforms that make it difficult or impossible to expose sensors properly to developers
15:17:52 [dom]
... hoping to tackle those next week, with lots of write-ups
15:18:09 [dom]
... Google Devrel has started to make quite a bit of promotion on generic sensor api
15:18:25 [dom]
... want to talk with him to see if he can connect me with developers that have strong requirements around this
15:18:32 [dom]
... but I first need a solid write up
15:19:05 [fjh]
q-
15:19:17 [dom]
Frederick: not sure I fully understand the push issue
15:19:38 [dom]
... is that a sensor changing under you in how it reports its data?
15:19:44 [dom]
Tobie: there are a number of aspects
15:20:03 [dom]
... I wrote the spec with the goal of shipping a level 1 with a framework on which we can build in the future
15:20:24 [dom]
... and that provides an equivalent feature set to existing sensors API (a la device orientation)
15:20:36 [dom]
... and fixes the known issues of these APIs
15:20:54 [dom]
... one of these issues is to be able to read sensor data immediately, without having to wait for its value to have an initial change
15:21:06 [dom]
... and another was to allow setting the polling frequency
15:22:32 [dom]
... Now that led me to design an API with 2 reporting models: periodic - for sensors that support it, you'll get back data at the said frequency; ua-dependent - let implementors provide data as it sees fits, typically only when data changes
15:22:53 [dom]
... the latter allowing important battery saving
15:24:57 [dom]
Frederick: I'm hearing not all sensors / use cases are the same, and thus need different APIs
15:25:07 [dom]
... how can we manage this under a single API?
15:25:26 [dom]
Tobie: the polling frequency use cases are strictly useful for the motion sensor API
15:25:44 [dom]
Frederick: so the generic sensor supports both, and concrete sensors pick one?
15:26:00 [dom]
Tobie: more specifically, concrete sensors need to specify whether they support periodic or not
15:26:16 [dom]
... maybe this could be exposed more distinctly than a simple parameter - will need to think about it
15:26:44 [dom]
... in any case, I'm getting feedback that all sensors should allow poll-based reporting
15:26:54 [fjh]
q?
15:27:02 [dom]
... my issue is that this prevents battery optimizations
15:28:03 [dom]
Tobie: I guess "frequency" could be a hint rather than a setting
15:28:39 [dom]
... if a hint, it would be down to developers to determine if that provides the needed accuracy for their use case
15:30:37 [dom]
... In general, the more we can make decisions at the level of the generic sensor, the better both writing concrete specs and keeping them consistent
15:31:12 [dom]
... Another point worth mentioning: there is a new whatwg spec - infra - that specifies a number of abstract data structures
15:31:12 [tobie]
https://infra.spec.whatwg.org/
15:31:24 [dom]
... it makes it easier to spec things consistently
15:31:41 [dom]
... I'm relying on a bunch of things specified in there
15:32:09 [dom]
... (ordered lists, ordered maps)
15:32:35 [dom]
... it helps with using a consistent terminology and algorithms
15:33:08 [dom]
Frederick: so priority is garbage collection right?
15:33:10 [dom]
tobie: yes
15:33:17 [dom]
... bringing a really large spec change
15:33:32 [dom]
... then it will be much easier to close a number of smaller issues
15:34:03 [dom]
Frederick: how are we doing on the security/privacy sections? we had volunteers to help?
15:34:32 [dom]
Tobie: yes, so far, it's mostly about threat models which will lead to non-normative additions to the specs
15:34:40 [dom]
... e.g. keylogging via accelerometer
15:36:42 [dom]
Frederick: how can others help you?
15:36:53 [dom]
Tobie: I need to get back into the spec atm
15:37:37 [dom]
... I'll then write up executive summaries of known issues to look for solid feedback from TAG, developers
15:37:43 [dom]
... similar to the feedback we got on GC
15:37:57 [fjh]
s/atm/now/
15:38:07 [fjh]
s/GC/garbage collection/
15:38:48 [dom]
Topic: Ambient Light
15:38:55 [fjh]
ACTION-780?
15:38:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-780 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Accept pull request for ambient light -- due 2016-12-08 -- OPEN
15:38:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/780
15:39:17 [dom]
close ACTION-780
15:39:17 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-780.
15:42:23 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:42:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-dap-minutes.html dom
15:42:23 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
15:42:32 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minues
15:42:32 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'generate minues', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:42:56 [fjh]
s/rrsagent, gnerate minues//
15:43:06 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:43:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:43:46 [fjh]
Present+ Tobie_Langel
15:44:37 [fjh]
s’s/rrsagent, gnerate minues//‘’
15:44:42 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:44:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-dap-minutes.html fjh
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