16:44:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
16:44:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-dpub-irc
16:44:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:44:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
16:44:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
16:44:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
16:44:39 <trackbot> Date: 12 December 2016
16:45:37 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Dec/0012.html
16:45:54 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
16:46:16 <ivan> Regrets: Romain, Luc, Michael
16:55:57 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #dpub
16:58:26 <tzviya> present+
16:59:03 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
16:59:25 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
16:59:38 <ivan> Present_
16:59:48 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
16:59:52 <ivan> Present+
16:59:57 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:59:59 <pkra> Present+ Peter Krautzberger
17:00:01 <ivan> Present+ George
17:00:45 <HeatherF> HeatherF has joined #dpub
17:01:02 <HeatherF> another call is running a few minutes long; will join DPUB shortly
17:01:11 <George> George has joined #dpub
17:01:11 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC
17:01:43 <garth> garth has joined #dpub
17:01:46 <clapierre1> clapierre1 has joined #DPUB
17:02:01 <George> present+ George
17:02:16 <clapierre1> present+ Charles
17:02:19 <garth> present+ Garth
17:02:58 <George> This is how to take a note?
17:03:20 <RickJohnson> RickJohnson has joined #dpub
17:03:30 <RickJohnson> i remembered!
17:03:37 <ivan> Present+ RickJohnson
17:03:41 <Bert> present+
17:03:42 <HeatherF> scribenick: heatherf
17:03:47 <ivan> present+ HeatherF
17:03:59 <Karen> present+ Karen
17:04:01 <RickJohnson> present+
17:04:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
17:04:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
17:04:09 <HeatherF> tzviya: don't forget to present+ yourself!
17:04:27 <HeatherF> ... we're still waiting on various action items (edits) as well
17:04:27 <astearns> present+
17:04:45 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/12/05-DPUB-minutes.html
17:05:07 <HeatherF> ... minutes approved
17:05:22 <HeatherF> ... we were discussing locators, for those of you who weren't on the call or forgot
17:05:37 <HeatherF> ... New member: Rick Johnson from VitalSource/Ingrim Group
17:05:38 <ivan> Topic: Welcome Rick
17:05:42 <garth> Welcome Rick!  :-)
17:05:58 <Karen> Welcome, Rick!
17:06:01 <ivan> Welcome Rick
17:06:30 <clapierre1> me/ lol that was hilarious :)
17:06:40 <HeatherF> ... VitalSource has done a lot working on the EPUB spec
17:06:45 <ivan> Topic: Locators in PWP
17:07:15 <HeatherF> tzviya:  dauwhe has done a lot of edits; see the pull request in github
17:07:40 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
17:07:50 <brady_duga> present+ duga
17:07:56 <ivan> Present+ Leonard
17:08:12 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has joined #dpub
17:08:15 <HeatherF> lrosenth: Nick and Leonard did not connect last week; would like an extension to their action item deadline
17:08:27 <HeatherF> tzviya: would people be available to meet next week?
17:08:28 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
17:08:39 <HeatherF> ... on the 19th; will not meet the two weeks after that
17:08:40 <ivan> +1
17:08:40 <Avneesh> +1
17:08:41 <HeatherF> +1
17:08:42 <brady_duga> -1
17:08:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
17:08:42 <astearns> +1
17:08:46 <RickJohnson> -1
17:08:48 <cmaden2> +1
17:08:50 <Karen> +1
17:08:53 <Bert> +1
17:08:53 <clapierre1> +1
17:08:55 <garth> -1
17:09:07 <pkra> audio issues. brb
17:09:41 <HeatherF> tzviya: we should probably meet
17:09:59 <HeatherF> ivan: meeting on the 19th is fine, but will be starting vacation through to January on the 20th (which has implications re: action items)
17:10:12 <HeatherF> tzviya: meet on the 19th, no meeting the two weeks after
17:11:07 <HeatherF> ... are there any comments re: locators?
17:11:14 <HeatherF> lrosenth: no, hold off til next week
17:11:32 <HeatherF> tzviya: talk about the very early draft of the DPUB WG charter
17:11:38 <ivan> Topic: Very^100 Draft Charter
17:11:39 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/dpubwg-charter/
17:12:13 <HeatherF> ... Ivan, Garth, Ralph, Wendy, Bill McCoy, and Tzviya have all worked on this, but it's still very much a WIP; the parallel business group is also in draft stage
17:12:42 <leonardr> leonardr has joined #dpub
17:12:53 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
17:13:04 <HeatherF> garth: this charter is very tentative at this point; the model being the group wants to provide tentative input to this group
17:13:26 <HeatherF> ... the business group charter is getting fleshed out now. There is some possibility that the business group charter may be reviewable this week, or soon thereafter
17:13:57 <HeatherF> tzviya: if there are no comments, will be in shock
17:13:58 <leonardr> q+
17:14:03 <tzviya> ack le
17:14:35 <HeatherF> leonardr: still believe that we should not be referring to EPUB inside the WP document
17:15:06 <HeatherF> ... interesting email conversation with Bill McCoy on the topic; the idea that we might work on WPs separately from PWPs, in that EPUB is an excellent example of a PWP
17:15:25 <clapierre1> q+
17:15:35 <HeatherF> ... whereas with the WPs we have a lot of work to do re: compatibility with existing browser world, which has nothing to do with packaging
17:15:38 <ivan> q+
17:15:45 <Avneesh> q+
17:15:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:16:02 <HeatherF> ... it can be the same group, but it should be two separate recommendations; EPUB comes into play with the standardized packing of thsoe publications for specific market segments
17:16:06 <HeatherF> ... feedback?
17:16:09 <tzviya> ack cl
17:16:20 <George> q
17:16:23 <HeatherF> clapierre1: new topic - maybe hold off on me?
17:16:24 <tzviya> ack iv
17:16:32 <clapierre1> q+
17:16:39 <HeatherF> ivan: we do not disagree, even if it sounds like it.
17:16:54 <HeatherF> ... not sure if the comment on the PWP document that we are putting together, or if it's about the charter?
17:17:06 <HeatherF> leonardr: looking at the charter
17:17:47 <HeatherF> ivan: a practical reason we have to do it the way it's in the charter. It's not a technical reason; the way the merger discussion goes with IDPF means that IDPF members who may join one working group during the transition period
17:18:02 <leonardr> right - forgot about the WG limitation issue.
17:18:25 <HeatherF> ... this forces us to have separate kinds of work in the same WG. Whether the EPUB WG should be in the same WG might be necessary now.
17:18:46 <HeatherF> ... work on the DPUB ARIA is in the same category; these things require different expertise and different people, but they still must be in the same WG
17:18:53 <HeatherF> ... that's why the charter is structured the way it is.
17:19:22 <HeatherF> ... EPUB4 is a separate work item because WP and PWP are slightly different animals, and then we get to the question of handling EPUB as a profile
17:19:26 <tzviya> ack av
17:19:56 <ivan> q+
17:19:58 <HeatherF> Avneesh: when we talk about non W3C docs, and we talk about EPUB3, we need to specify accessibility guidelines as well
17:20:32 <HeatherF> ... there is a heading "non W3C documents" there is an "EPUB 3 overview" and we should add accessibility as another section
17:21:09 <HeatherF> ivan: that's a small problem on how to reference things We have six documents in the 3.1 package which will be published, including the accessibility doc.
17:21:31 <HeatherF> ... Listing all six in this place would be clumsy. Would like to have one master reference.
17:21:41 <HeatherF> tzviya: we have the umbrella spec which has all these
17:22:06 <HeatherF> ... the EPUB 3.1 umbrella spec covers everything in the EPUB3 family, including the accessibility spec
17:22:30 <tzviya> ack bi
17:22:38 <HeatherF> Bill_Kasdorf: want to address and stress the timing issue
17:22:42 <garth> q?
17:23:00 <HeatherF> ... presuming we're drafting language for a charter, but it won't be put forward for approval until we know the outcome of the joining of orgs
17:23:14 <HeatherF> ... so, this WG charter needs to address the future of EPUB
17:23:29 <HeatherF> ... if the combination does not go forward, then the charter wouldn't be the same
17:23:47 <HeatherF> ... the combination anticipates that a community group would be established to maintain EPUB3.
17:24:06 <HeatherF> ... the charter being approved needs to say it's in scope to discuss what happens to the EPUB spec
17:24:07 <tzviya> ack cl
17:24:11 <ivan> q-
17:24:29 <HeatherF> garth: it is reflected that way in the current charter draft
17:24:30 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
17:25:13 <ivan> q+
17:25:24 <leonardr> q+
17:25:24 <HeatherF> clapierre1: was also going to bring up the accessibility spec doc. In addition, see that we have the ARIA module, but highlighting more the accessibility focus in the charter to say we're looking at all aspects of accessibility would be good
17:25:35 <HeatherF> tzviya: what do we not already mention?
17:25:45 <HeatherF> ... see Success Criteria
17:25:58 <HeatherF> clapierre1: Would have liked to see it highlighted more.
17:26:12 <HeatherF> ... to show what's in scope
17:26:27 <ivan> q?
17:26:31 <HeatherF> Avneesh: we're already working with WCAG; right now, we're not sure what language we should use here. Depends on what's in WCAG 2.1
17:26:56 <tzviya> ack iv
17:27:00 <leonardr> q-
17:27:02 <HeatherF> tzviya: the question is whether this happens in ARIA or in WCAG
17:27:10 <HeatherF> ivan: tzviya said mostly what I wanted to say
17:27:31 <HeatherF> ... we have to be careful; in the case of a WG, if we put recommendation track work in the charter, we are accountable for it.
17:27:51 <HeatherF> ... at the end of the WG, we need to prove that we've done that work, and if in the meantime the work goes to another WG, then that's a problem for this WG.
17:28:07 <HeatherF> ... That's the big difference between an IG and a WG. A WG is more regulated.
17:28:36 <HeatherF> ... the section called "scope" gives you two or three paragraph general description what the work is all about. That text is right now entirely empty.
17:28:49 <tzviya> q?
17:28:52 <HeatherF> ... adding some additional text on accessibility in the scope is appropriate
17:29:15 <HeatherF> ... but what we're focusing on now is the more formal things that we'll be measured on; what the deliverables are
17:29:25 <clapierre1> THANKS Yes
17:30:06 <HeatherF> George: +1 to what Bill_Kasdorf had to say. Letting the community supporting EPUB know that there is a bright future with EPUB and a smooth transition roadmap is important
17:30:10 <ivan> q+
17:30:15 <tzviya> ack iv
17:30:49 <HeatherF> ivan: We will have to give more detail on the timeline for the work. That's where some of the issues that Leonard has raised will come in.
17:31:16 <HeatherF> ... so far, no work has gone into making these estimates. The group will likely begin with WP and PWP, and we will not do anything with EPUB 4 for the first 6-8 months.
17:31:24 <leonardr> ^^ agreed
17:31:35 <HeatherF> ... It's only when we have a clearer idea about the other things that we will touch on EPUB4
17:31:38 <leonardr> (ignore the smiley, IRC changed my ^'s)
17:32:09 <HeatherF> tzviya: we have a LOT of publications listed here. If we're going to turn these around, we need a lot of committment.
17:32:42 <HeatherF> ... We will have to divide up into TFs. Some of the work coming over from the IDPF (e.g., EPUB for education) we won't work on, but there are embedded contingencies
17:32:56 <tzviya> q?
17:33:17 <HeatherF> ivan: do we want to go into timing issues?
17:33:51 <HeatherF> ... (timing of when the charter will be done; what the steps are to get to done)
17:34:46 <HeatherF> Garth: one of the keys driving this to conclusion is contingent on the merger and the formation of the business group; that drives this process through January and possibly into February
17:35:27 <HeatherF> ivan: there is minimally four weeks of formal review by the advisory committee of the W3C to account for as well
17:35:50 <HeatherF> ... a WG will not be operational until, at best, spring time. Possibly not until early summer.
17:36:11 <HeatherF> Bill_Kasdorf: Does that mean the IG continues until the WG is established?
17:36:35 <HeatherF> ivan: because the charter uses the DOUB and UCR work as input, having those documents as clean as possible is a good thing.
17:36:53 <tzviya> s/DOUB/DPUB
17:37:00 <HeatherF> ... but then there is a question as to whether we want to maintain the IG for other purposes, or close it because it morphs into a WG
17:37:06 <garth> q?
17:37:29 <HeatherF> Bill_Kasdorf: the IG would potentially morph into the technical and business groups, depending on topic. The IG currently provides both of those perspectives.
17:37:45 <HeatherF> tzviya: We don't need to solve that today, and probably don't have an answer to dates today as well.
17:38:26 <ivan> regrets+ Nick, Ayla
17:38:29 <HeatherF> garth: the IG wants to provide technical direction to this process, so is the best way for that to happen to offer issues in github?
17:38:30 <tzviya> send issues to https://github.com/w3c/dpubwg-charter/issues
17:38:33 <HeatherF> ivan: yes
17:38:41 <HeatherF> Homework for everybody! YAY!
17:38:58 <HeatherF> Remember, opinions are like bellybuttons. Everyone has one!
17:39:52 <ivan> Topic: PWP editing by Dave
17:40:32 <HeatherF> dauwhe: Last Friday we discussed the PWPWP (the white paper), including issues around relative URLs
17:40:55 <HeatherF> ... decided to try and incorporate some of that rant into the doc (see his pull request) by rewriting the abstract, introductions, and the overview for some of the challenges
17:41:06 <HeatherF> ... the goals were to simplify and streamline the doc
17:41:33 <HeatherF> ... we have spent a lot of time on the online/offline, packaged/unpackaged questions, and those passages read like those issues were more fundamental than those issues actually are
17:41:52 <HeatherF> ... so wanted to focus more on what we want rather than on the mode of thinking we've really mostly worked through
17:42:35 <tzviya> see Dave's edit https://rawgit.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/pull-request-dauwhe-1/index.html
17:42:39 <ivan> q+
17:42:44 <tzviya> ack iv
17:42:45 <HeatherF> ... Portable and Packaged are not entirely identical
17:42:48 <leonardr> q+
17:42:56 <garth> Good for review: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/pull/34/files?diff=split
17:43:19 <HeatherF> ivan: read through the proposed text, and feel it is better than what was there. Would be happy to go ahead and merge it now
17:43:27 <HeatherF> tzviya: read it this morning; would also approve merging it
17:43:28 <tzviya> ack l
17:43:44 <tzviya> Dave's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Dec/0024.html
17:43:55 <HeatherF> leonardr: have not had a chance to review it, but trust Dave if we'd like to merge the changes now. Note that some are controversial, mostly in terms of how we describe and address them.
17:44:06 <dauwhe> q+
17:44:06 <HeatherF> ... there's a lot of nuance to work through, but let's move it to the main branch and evolve from there
17:44:06 <ivan> +1 to leonard
17:44:10 <tzviya> ack da
17:44:27 <HeatherF> dauwhe: should also mention another motivation: thinking about the audience on the web side.
17:44:36 <Karen> q+
17:44:39 <HeatherF> ... Wanted to use language less likely to inflame and confuse our web friends
17:44:39 <tzviya> ack k
17:45:13 <HeatherF> Karen: a question re: audiences - to what level in the publishing industry do you think the doc is digestible/readable
17:45:28 <HeatherF> dauwhe: ...
17:45:47 <HeatherF> dauwhe: ...
17:46:15 <leonardr> q+
17:46:36 <HeatherF> dauwhe: interesting question. We have many groups we need to target, and yet those groups speak different languages. It will be hard to write a single doc that fits all the various audiences.
17:47:00 <ivan> regrets+ Ben_de_Meester
17:47:01 <HeatherF> Karen: so the doc right now is for the profile of people on the call, or could it go up and out?
17:47:11 <HeatherF> dauwhe: Haven't read it with that very good question in mind
17:47:13 <ivan> q+
17:47:20 <tzviya> q+ to talk about audience
17:47:54 <HeatherF> ... maybe we should have a companion explainer doc? Need to think about that
17:47:55 <tzviya> ack le
17:48:32 <HeatherF> leonardr: As we continue to work on this doc, and as we decide who the targets are for this or additional docs, we need to remember that we're not just thinking about professional, curated publishing space
17:48:56 <HeatherF> ... we are trying to address ad hoc publishing as well (e.g., the church secretary, the administrator, anyone putting out a doc wanting others to consume it)
17:49:16 <HeatherF> ... we want authors as well as publishers as we consider the language here.
17:49:32 <tzviya> ack iv
17:49:54 <HeatherF> ivan: The document, the way it's prepared and the goal that it has, is more for a technical community than for a higher level.
17:50:23 <HeatherF> ... this is jotting down for a technical environment, and it's ultimate goal is to give some general direction to consider for a WG that generates a technical standard.
17:50:25 <tzviya> q- bc ivan spoke my mind
17:50:31 <tzviya> q-
17:50:36 <HeatherF> ... we should not try to put too much into it.
17:50:58 <HeatherF> ... within the large technical community, we have subcommunities.
17:51:41 <HeatherF> ... At some point, it would be good if someone who has a better sense for describing this to non-technical people, but this one is primarily for a technical audience and we should keep it at that
17:51:44 <tzviya> q?
17:51:59 <HeatherF> tzviya: any other comments?
17:52:27 <HeatherF> George: any other documents should be harmonized with this. Make sure we don't contradict in other docs we write.
17:52:45 <cmaden2> +1
17:52:52 <HeatherF> tzviya: so, merge dauwhe's changes?
17:52:52 <leonardr> +1
17:52:53 <ivan> +1
17:52:54 <HeatherF> +1
17:53:58 <HeatherF> tzviya: Reminder: we are meeting again on the 19th, then our next meeting after will be the 9th of January
17:54:08 <pkra> pkra has left #dpub
17:54:10 <HeatherF> George: regrets for next week, and happy holidays!
17:54:20 <clapierre1> clapierre1 has left #dpub
17:54:24 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has left #dpub
17:54:34 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:54:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
17:54:51 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:54:51 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:54:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, dauwhe, Avneesh, ivan, Chris_Maden, Peter, Krautzberger, George, Charles, Garth, RickJohnson, Bert, HeatherF, Karen, Bill_Kasdorf,
17:54:54 <Zakim> ... astearns, duga, Leonard, Deborah_Kaplan, Benjamin_Young
17:54:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:54:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
17:55:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:55:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items