15:05:38 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:05:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-tt-irc 15:05:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:05:40 Zakim has joined #tt 15:05:42 trackbot, start meeting 15:05:42 Zakim, this will be TTML 15:05:42 ok, trackbot 15:05:43 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:05:43 Date: 01 December 2016 15:05:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:05:49 Zakim, this will be TTML 15:05:49 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:05:49 Date: 01 December 2016 15:05:49 ok, trackbot 15:07:11 nigel has joined #tt 15:08:51 Present: Andreas, Glenn, Mike, Pierre, Thierry, Nigel 15:08:53 Chair: Nigel 15:08:55 scribe: nigel 15:09:00 Regrets: None 15:09:30 Topic: This meeting 15:09:56 nigel: For today, I'd like to cover the TTML Profiles registry, maybe the Unicode ticket, and the Security & Privacy section for TTML2. 15:10:08 nigel: AOB? 15:10:27 mike: I'd like a minute on the IANA registry and the page that supports that, and also 15:10:30 atai has joined #tt 15:11:02 ... the post from Pierre about imscjs. 15:11:18 nigel: Sure, we did actually discuss imscjs a little last week though it's not well minuted. 15:12:42 Topic: TTML Profiles Registry 15:14:04 nigel: This is about the issues and PRs etc, and if we should update it now. 15:14:21 mike: Is the IANA registration complete? 15:14:32 nigel: Yes it was updated on 2016-09-30 15:14:34 -> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ttml+xml 15:14:44 nigel: It refers to the profile registry document. 15:15:08 nigel: Now looking at the open issues/PRs: 15:15:10 -> https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pulls 15:15:58 nigel: This is the moment to say that the open issues/pull requests are all the work to be done. 15:16:10 mike: I think the passage of time is sufficient here. 15:16:12 nigel: I concur. 15:16:41 group: [no objection] 15:16:50 mike: OK I'll go ahead and push this up towards the top of my list. 15:16:52 nigel: Thank you! 15:17:28 Topic: IMSC (plus Unicode ticket) 15:17:52 action-478? 15:17:52 action-478 -- Nigel Megitt to Draft a liaison to hbbtv requesting further information and proposing an option e.g. to extend imsc 1 to allow signalling of background height on span, and request timelines etc. -- due 2016-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:17:52 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/478 15:18:14 nigel: This is now sent and I updated the action with the archive link to the liaison that was sent. 15:18:20 close action-478 15:18:20 Closed action-478. 15:18:28 action-487? 15:18:28 action-487 -- Nigel Megitt to Send generic liaison to atsc, arib, mpeg, dece, cta, dash-if, dtg, hbbtv, smpte. -- due 2016-11-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:18:28 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/487 15:18:40 nigel: Same applies here - the liaisons were sent, thanks to Pierre and all for helping edit 15:18:53 ... the text. Links to the liaisons as archived are in the action. 15:19:01 close action-487 15:19:01 Closed action-487. 15:19:50 nigel: Apologies to Mike for the confusion about the SMPTE one, which was my mistake. 15:20:00 action-488? 15:20:00 action-488 -- Nigel Megitt to Send liaison to dvb replacing first sentence from generic response with acknowledgement sentence. -- due 2016-11-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:20:00 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/488 15:20:12 nigel: I did this, and logged the message archive link in the action. 15:20:15 close action-488 15:20:15 Closed action-488. 15:21:50 nigel: One thing to note is I bumped the response date from 1 Jan to 8 Jan to accommodate my lateness in sending those messages. Apologies if that causes any difficulties! 15:22:05 action-485? 15:22:05 action-485 -- Thierry Michel to Ask richard ishida for assistance in unblocking the unicode ticket 8915. -- due 2016-11-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:22:05 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/485 15:22:18 nigel: There has been an update on the Unicode ticket 15:22:26 -> http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/8915#comment:8 15:23:31 pierre: I think we have the scripts to produce one of the things they are asking for, the delta. 15:23:55 .. Maybe we should go through the questions now? 15:23:59 nigel: I think that would be useful, quickly. 15:25:03 pierre: Question 1... 15:25:13 glenn has joined #tt 15:25:22 nigel: Does anyone here know the difference between supplemental and exemplar sets in Unicode? 15:25:46 pierre: I'm not sure, we maybe need to dig deeper or ask for clarification. This may not be a question for us to answer. 15:25:50 nigel: Agreed. 15:26:11 ... It's good they're considering _how_ to do it rather than _if_. 15:26:17 pierre: Exactly, that is encouraging. 15:26:59 ... Question 2: I think the answer is "yes" to both questions. 15:28:05 ... I think the Unicode tables try to be statements of fact rather than mandatory. And that's all we need, a description of the characters that are used for captions in a particular language. 15:29:03 glenn: [speculates that supplemental sets are additional characters but examplar sets are lists of existing characters for a particular context] 15:29:30 glenn: So I think the answer for question 2 is yes to a and yes to b. 15:29:44 nigel: +1 15:30:14 pierre: Question 3: We definitely have created that delta set and can point to it. 15:31:12 Action: pal Update the Unicode ticket 8915 with a link to the deltas between what we recommend and what is already in main and aux sets. 15:31:15 Created ACTION-489 - Update the unicode ticket 8915 with a link to the deltas between what we recommend and what is already in main and aux sets. [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2016-12-08]. 15:31:29 pierre: Maybe they are saying that if characters are in use for captioning in a language then 15:31:39 ... it should be added to aux for that language. That would be fine by me. 15:32:05 nigel: Q 3a may be that they have found a mistake? 15:32:20 pierre: There are two parts to 3a. We can provide the background behind the selection, which 15:32:39 ... is indeed an empirical examination of real data. The other part, about Hebrew and other 15:33:02 ... latin scripts, I will follow up with someone who knows about this. 15:33:37 glenn: I agree with the question, it does look extremely odd. Also it may cause trouble having characters with different directions. 15:33:57 pierre: The basic latin set is included all the time even with Hebrew, so the question is why 15:34:17 ... is a special case made for U+0178 : LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y WITH DIAERESIS? 15:35:56 nigel: Looking at the list, Hebrew includes Latin Extended-A which has other characters 15:36:09 ... as well as U+0178. 15:37:34 pierre: It sounds like either there is a mistake - I will check - but also explain that all the 15:37:54 ... Latin Extended A characters are included (plus other Latin characters) in all the locales. 15:38:03 glenn: I don't believe it includes all Latin characters defined in Unicode. 15:38:24 pierre: I should have said the "base set" (whatever it's correct name is). 15:38:37 glenn: Yes, Vietnamese latin characters are not included for example. 15:39:54 pierre: Should I pass draft text to the group before updating the ticket? 15:40:00 nigel: I think you can go ahead and do it. 15:40:09 pierre: Thanks for keeping tabs on the ticket by the way. 15:40:45 nigel: No worries. Thanks to Richard for prompting them - that really helped. 15:41:00 action-485? 15:41:00 action-485 -- Thierry Michel to Ask richard ishida for assistance in unblocking the unicode ticket 8915. -- due 2016-11-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:41:00 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/485 15:41:08 nigel: Since this is unblocked, I'll close this. 15:41:28 action-485: [Meeting 2016-12-01] This seems to be unblocked - thank you Richard! Closing. 15:41:28 Notes added to action-485 Ask richard ishida for assistance in unblocking the unicode ticket 8915.. 15:41:31 close action-485 15:41:31 Closed action-485. 15:42:04 nigel: Do you want a minute on imscjs? 15:42:08 glenn: I would like to hear more about it. 15:42:43 pierre: This is a javascript library intended for rendering IMSC 1 documents into HTML5 15:42:50 .. as faithfully as possible to the spec. 15:42:52 -> https://github.com/sandflow/imscjs 15:43:22 pierre: There are three main parts, parsing, turning into ISDs and then mapping the ISDs into HTML5. 15:43:31 .. That last part could be replaced by other renderings. 15:43:49 .. There are also links to test sample renderings from TTML1 and IRT tests. 15:43:59 .. This work is sponsored by MovieLabs. 15:44:25 .. This is an initial beta release, intended to be substantially complete in API and in 15:44:38 .. functionality, and the goal is to walk towards a 1.0 release in the next couple of months. 15:44:46 q+ 15:44:59 ack atai 15:45:05 q+ glenn 15:45:07 q+ mike 15:45:22 andreas: I also tested it and found it helpful. I did not find any error yet, and everyone I 15:45:34 ... told about it said it is really helping for TTML implementation. Another thing that could 15:45:46 .. be relevant is that very easily you can produce images for all of the TTML samples that 15:45:59 .. are in the test suite, so therefore it could be helpful for this group, and you could think 15:46:07 .. about providing images together with the test suite. 15:46:22 pierre: It works only in Chrome and Firefox because of security issues, but from Firefox 15:46:34 .. you can actually export the sequence of images associated with each ISD. 15:46:46 andreas: It is also helpful for TTML to HTML mapping, so we also benefit from that. 15:46:55 q+ to ask about IE/Edge 15:47:00 ack glenn 15:47:12 glenn: I agree with Andreas, it's very nice to have this available. 15:47:29 .. Did you create any new test content or did you use the former TTML test suite? 15:47:39 .. Also have you had a chance to document any rough spots in terms of trouble mapping 15:47:50 .. to HTML or CSS that required giving up formatting semantics or other things like that? 15:48:07 pierre: I've been using for test the TTML1 test vectors that are compatible with IMSC1, 15:48:20 .. especially for timing semantics that has been extremely helpful. Also the IRT test vectors 15:48:34 .. because they come with nice expected renders, so that's been nice for finding bugs. 15:48:54 .. Ultimately I would like to come up with really good IMSC 1 specific test vectors. I have a 15:49:10 .. question for W3C about copyright etc and how they would feel about turning TTML1 tests 15:49:14 .. into IMSC 1 tests. 15:49:32 .. On the second question so far I think in the case of IMSC1 there's nothing that cannot 15:49:47 .. be mapped to HTML, but time will tell! I've seen some interesting things with unicode bidi 15:49:58 .. and embed, and need to see if there's a spec or a browser issue - that will take more time. 15:50:06 .. One of the IRT test vectors has a discrepancy. 15:50:23 .. Another one is xml:space="preserve" which is also something where we might find surprises. 15:50:36 .. Overall, the two features that required the most work were linePadding and multiRowAlign 15:50:53 .. because both of those features require determining line breaks when there are no specific 15:50:55 .. line breaks. 15:51:24 nigel: What about box-decoration-break: clone for linePadding? 15:51:57 pierre: The issue here is multiple nested spans with different background colours. The clone 15:52:08 .. works great if there is only a single background colour for the entire background of the 15:52:11 .. p or the span. 15:52:27 glenn: On multiRowAlign did you end up using display: inline-block ? 15:52:47 pierre: Yes I think so, after finding line breaks and inserting br elements where needed. 15:53:00 glenn: I'll have to take a look at it with some examples - these are tricky areas for sure. 15:53:18 pierre: The strategy is to do a first pass putting every character in its own span, then check 15:53:33 .. the vertical position of each, and when it changes then insert a hard break. 15:53:36 ack mike 15:53:54 mike: Comment: I had the opportunity to throw some DECE film content at it that was 15:54:09 ... coded to DECE specs, and it looked like it was doing the right thing, without looking 15:54:24 ... in extreme detail. That was encouraging, with 300-400kb of XML. 15:54:46 ... Question: There's a partial implementation of IMSC-1/EBU-TT-D in dash.js and I wondered 15:54:56 ... if you had some thoughts about integrating into that? 15:55:14 pierre: Yes, in fact I have been touch with one of the main developers of dash.js TTML code, 15:55:41 .. and his comments were 1. How are images supported? and 2. Why are IE and Edge not supported? 15:55:59 .. In fact images are supported, using an image resolver. 15:56:02 q- 15:56:17 pierre: I have not had time to test with IE and Edge, and I was pleasantly surprised how 15:56:33 .. far IE11 has come, and there's a pull request to make 2 changes that will make the 15:56:46 .. library compatible with both. The goal was always to make it compatible with Edge. 15:57:02 .. I expect to merge that very soon, and then update the README. It should be compatible 15:57:15 .. with the latest version of Edge, Safari. Chrome, Firefox and IE11. 15:57:30 pierre: It turns out there is only one CSS feature not supported by Edge and it was really 15:57:32 .. easy to get around it. 15:59:00 Topic: TTML2 15:59:15 nigel: I just want to mention Security and Privacy. We currently don't have a section on this, 15:59:33 .. and I've discussed with David Singer and Glenn and this has led to issue 224 being raised. 15:59:38 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/224 16:00:46 nigel: We have three examples now, but any others would be welcome - please contribute to the issue. 16:00:59 glenn: I thought of another, the use of xlink to cause browsing away to other content. 16:02:01 nigel: I've added that to the issue. 16:04:43 atai has left #tt 16:05:07 nigel: We're out of time for today (slightly over) and we've covered the main agenda topics. Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting] 16:05:10 rrsagent, make minutes 16:05:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:08:22 s/and do it/and update the ticket directly 16:10:55 rrsagent, make minutes 16:10:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:11:32 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:11:33 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-tt-minutes.html nigel 18:07:56 Zakim has left #tt