15:28:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
15:28:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-irc
15:28:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:28:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
15:28:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:28:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:28:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:28:43 <trackbot> Date: 01 December 2016
15:29:35 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:29:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:30:30 <allanj> chair: Jim Allan
15:30:39 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
15:30:47 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:30:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:31:47 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
15:32:47 <allanj> Agenda+ Metadata on Hover
15:33:08 <allanj> Agenda+ Text Colors
15:43:07 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:54:17 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:54:17 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
15:54:18 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
15:54:26 <shawn> present: Shawn, Wayne, Jim
15:57:21 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:59:35 <ScottM> webex not webbed
15:59:46 <ScottM> stupid Mac autocorrect
15:59:56 <shawn> s/webex not webbed/
16:00:02 <shawn> s/stupid Mac autocorrect/
16:00:46 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
16:01:17 <laura> Scribe List: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Scribe_List
16:01:59 <Wayne> scribe: wayne
16:02:19 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #lvtf
16:02:24 <shawn> present+ Alastair, Alan, Laura, Marla, Scott
16:03:37 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
16:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Metadata on Hover" taken up [from allanj]
16:03:37 <shawn> present+ Erich
16:03:50 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Metadata_On_Hover
16:04:02 <shawn> present+ Glenda
16:04:03 <Wayne> Jim: Metadata on hover.
16:04:11 <erich_manser> erich_manser has joined #lvtf
16:04:18 <Glenda> present+ Glenda
16:04:52 <erich_manser> present+ Erich
16:05:43 <Wayne> Alastair: This defines informational content, and it does limit tool-tops
16:06:56 <Wayne> Marla: The icons logos and symbols in like editors where the tool  tips are necessary for knowing what they are.
16:08:15 <Wayne> Alastair: The author must not rely are not recognizable (universally)
16:08:34 <Wayne> Marla: That will be hard to enforce.
16:08:44 <laura> present+ Laura
16:09:21 <Wayne> Alastair: You can use too tip if it doesn't obscure  content.
16:10:07 <Glenda> q+
16:10:32 <Wayne> Alan: The original issue is the mouse blocks information.
16:10:36 <allanj> q+ to say if keyboard functionality works then hover is ok
16:10:41 <allanj> ack G
16:10:57 <allanj> ack
16:11:07 <Wayne> Glenda: This is something that could be solved at the browser.
16:12:21 <Wayne> Jim: There is an out make the same  functionality with the keyboard. Hover and focus solves multiple wayse.
16:12:43 <Wayne> Alan: Focus tool tips are not out in general.
16:14:01 <alastairc> For each item of content that is [add]only[/add] shown by hovering your mouse over an element
16:14:42 <Wayne> Glenda: Content is available by a method other  than mouse hover.
16:15:10 <Wayne> ... add "for example on focus"
16:16:02 <Wayne> Marla: For a technique we need to add scripting to make this work.
16:16:53 <Wayne> Jim: Mouse pointer  covering the tootip. How does it work?
16:17:47 <Wayne> Alastair: Either you cannot read the tool tip or the tool   tip covers something else.  You cannot rely on the cursor to relay information.
16:18:23 <Wayne> Jim: I made my tooltip hoverable, but the mouse still covers
16:18:50 <Wayne> Alastair: If you can use keyboard focus.
16:19:28 <Wayne> Marla: I moved away from the original content.
16:20:05 <Wayne> ... Rather  within the limits of the OS, but they must be keyboard accessible.
16:21:04 <Wayne> ... Mouse user may be excluded from tool tips
16:22:03 <Wayne> Alastair: If we cover the cursor that may need to go to Silver.
16:22:56 <Wayne> Jim: We have a good and useful SC then without the cursor issue.
16:23:36 <Wayne> Jim: The SC covers everything but cursor covering content.
16:24:56 <Wayne> Alan: The tool tip will overlap something.
16:26:18 <Wayne> Marla: The reason the screen shot (perkins) the screen zoom follows the mouse and the mouse will cover elements. Suplemental unnecessaryu information is in the way.
16:27:09 <Wayne> Alastair: Maybe we need a refined definition if informational conent.
16:28:54 <alastairc> Wording: Content whose primary purpose  is to provides information, not navigational or functional elements such as links, buttons or menus.
16:28:58 <shawn> +1 for getting it in today
16:29:06 <Wayne> +1
16:30:06 <shawn> Laura: We'll work on it some more under WCAG WG
16:30:46 <allanj> zakim, open item 2
16:30:46 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Text Colors" taken up [from allanj]
16:30:58 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_Colors
16:31:36 <allanj> scribe: allanj
16:32:33 <allanj> marla: " foreground and background colors chosen from the full range of color choices provided by the user agent" does it include extensions
16:32:38 <allanj> wd: yes
16:34:51 <allanj> wd: issues - hidden text (same fg and bg color), place holder.
16:35:19 <allanj> marla: able to view text includes placeholder text
16:35:42 <allanj> wd: discuss css
16:37:19 <allanj> jim: concerns about what authors can do to implement this. can authors block user changes?
16:38:11 <allanj> wd: it is possible for authors to block changes. code level css with !important will block user css
16:38:25 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:39:38 <allanj> wd: issues with background images. will disappear with high contrast
16:40:20 <ScottM> +q
16:40:42 <allanj> gs: background images are important to high volume sites. cannot exclude background.
16:40:57 <allanj> wd: can't reflow bg image.
16:41:05 <allanj> ack a
16:41:05 <Zakim> allanj, you wanted to say if keyboard functionality works then hover is ok
16:41:17 <alastairc> q+
16:41:37 <allanj> wd: other ways to do things other than sprites.
16:42:55 <allanj> scottm: bg images are faster. poor alternatives to bg images for screen reader users. lv users remove bg images to improve the view and loose functionality.
16:44:48 <laura> agree with scott
16:46:43 <laura> WCAG already has: F3: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to using CSS to include images that convey important information: https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/F3.html
16:46:50 <allanj> alastair: does a page become unusable when background images go away. there are specific cases. there are better ways of doing things.
16:47:23 <Glenda> I’m comfortable with this proposed SC moving forward…I think this discussion will happen again at the WCAG WG level.
16:47:28 <allanj> marla: add "without loss of content or functionality" to cover the image issue or other color things that pop up.
16:48:06 <allanj> wd: or "without loss of important information"
16:48:11 <erich_manser> +1 to adding "without loss..." text
16:50:41 <alastairc> Changed to: Users must be able to change foreground and background colors chosen from the full range of color choices provided by the user agent, without loss of important information.
16:51:20 <allanj> ja: is this ready to go.
16:51:31 <alastairc> +1
16:51:39 <allanj> s/go./go?
16:51:45 <allanj> +1
16:52:06 <allanj> Glenda, alan, laura, wayne good to go.
16:52:32 <allanj> RESOLUTION: Text Colors https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_Colors ready for WCAG 2.1
16:53:06 <Wayne> scribe: wayne
16:53:17 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
16:53:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Metadata on Hover" taken up [from allanj]
16:53:25 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Metadata_On_Hover
16:54:07 <allanj> changed def of Informational Content: Content whose primary purpose is to provide information rather than navigational or functional elements such as links, buttons or menus.
16:54:19 <laura> +1
16:54:33 <Wayne> +1
16:54:46 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
16:55:16 <ScottM> +1
16:55:27 <alastairc> +1
16:55:30 <Alan_Smith> +1 meta data on hover
16:55:35 <shawn> Marla +1
16:55:38 <allanj> marla +1
16:55:38 <erich_manser> +1
16:55:42 <allanj> +1
16:55:49 <Glenda> +1
16:56:18 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: Metadata on Hover is ready for WCAG.
16:56:28 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:56:34 <JohnRochford> present+
16:56:44 <allanj> Topic: Printing Customized text
16:56:55 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Printing_Customized_Text
16:57:06 <Wayne> Take up new menu item
16:58:39 <allanj> alastair: this works already
16:58:53 <allanj> sh: not in pdf
16:59:27 <allanj> sh: author is responsible to present information in a form users can modifiy.
17:01:26 <allanj> Any objections?
17:01:37 <Wayne> Shawn: We need a technique.
17:03:40 <allanj> technique - ensure CSS width only add to 100%
17:04:01 <allanj> marla: apply to pdf
17:04:16 <allanj> shawn: applys to all content. cannot meet this with pdf
17:05:05 <allanj> alastair: covered by "accessibly supported" in WCAG
17:05:19 <Wayne> Alastair: It already has two techniques.
17:06:14 <Wayne> Jim: Test with  print preview; zoom and print;
17:07:21 <Wayne> Shawn: Use browser font settings and print.
17:10:23 <allanj> alastair: safari does not have this functinality
17:11:00 <allanj> ... all browsers on Mac side don't scale
17:11:07 <allanj> ... to print
17:11:54 <allanj> Is Printing ready to go to wcag?
17:12:00 <allanj> +1
17:12:01 <JohnRochford> +1
17:12:03 <alastairc> +1
17:12:03 <shawn> +1
17:12:07 <Glenda> +1
17:12:10 <Alan_Smith> +1
17:12:28 <shawn> s/safari does not have this functinality/safari does not have this functinality in print preview
17:12:43 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: Printing Customized Text is ready for WCAG WG
17:13:22 <ScottM> we need mare whereases
17:13:25 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Tracking_Success_Criteria_Progress#Success_Criteria_Progress_Table
17:15:18 <alastairc> scribe: alastairc
17:15:49 <Alan_Smith> I need to drop the call. Thanks. Great work.
17:16:08 <alastairc> Shawn: are we getting to the other SCs? Font family etc.
17:18:01 <allanj> font family, spacing, text style
17:18:13 <alastairc> Wayne: anticipate it would get to WCAG, and they would say it isn't something an author can do. Also, need to be able to demo on two platforms.
17:18:33 <alastairc> Wayne: Could do as the printing one, and have examples from HTML.
17:18:58 <alastairc> Would work like the text colour one, you do it in the browser and you've got it.
17:19:26 <alastairc> Allanj: are those three ok?
17:19:37 <alastairc> Shawn: font family and spacing are the most important ones.
17:20:07 <alastairc> Shawn: what about the other pre-TPAC ones?
17:20:20 <allanj> topic: Size of all Content
17:20:39 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Size_of_all_elements
17:21:01 <allanj> Alastair: reviews
17:21:12 <Wayne> Alastair: Describes the SC.
17:22:05 <alastairc> AllanJ: Any objections?
17:22:34 <Wayne> John: Why are we going from 200 to 400?
17:23:53 <Wayne> Alastair: 400% is achievable. Zooming gets you the mobile site. Greater print requires reflow.
17:24:11 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
17:24:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html laura
17:24:57 <JohnRochford> John: Suggestion that we add a reference to our reflow SC for above 400.
17:24:59 <Wayne> John: Should we add for large resize use reflow.
17:25:10 <Wayne> Marla: Account for window size.
17:26:03 <alastairc> Alastair: It is the same as WCAG 2, same assumptions.
17:26:26 <alastairc> Any obections?
17:26:32 <ScottM> no
17:26:35 <allanj> +1
17:26:47 <ScottM> +1
17:26:47 <JohnRochford> +1
17:26:49 <laura> none from me
17:26:52 <laura> +1
17:26:52 <Wayne> +1
17:26:54 <Glenda> +1
17:27:16 <alastairc> RESOLUTION: Resize content https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Size_of_all_elements is ready to go to WCAG
17:27:49 <allanj> topic: Font Family
17:27:51 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Font
17:28:42 <allanj> shawn: fonts available on the system
17:29:16 <allanj> The user can change the font family to any family generally available to the user agent.
17:29:29 <alastairc> Wayne: User agent, often has more options that OS.
17:29:41 <alastairc> s/that OS/than OS
17:30:56 <alastairc> Wayne: same for the others.
17:31:17 <alastairc> Shawn: Can take out the "general"
17:32:01 <alastairc> AllanJ: can do that to the others?
17:32:39 <shawn> Alastair: Yes, I'm fine with doing that to the others
17:32:50 <allanj> alastair: ok with making the changes to the others same as font family
17:33:09 <allanj> scribe: allanj
17:33:51 <allanj> RESOLUTION: Spacing https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Spacing is ready to go to WCAG
17:35:17 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html laura
17:37:06 <Glenda> I agree with Wayne and Shawn…to make a resolution for things we are passing to Silver.
17:37:12 <JohnRochford> FYI: I added a link, to our Reflow SC, to the new text in the description section of our Size of all elements SC.
17:37:19 <allanj> wayne: because of the limitation of 2.1, recognize there are essential needs that are not met by these SC. We are not submitting xxx at this time, but will be submitting to Silver
17:38:11 <allanj> wd: limited by what authors can do.
17:38:41 <allanj> wd: lvtf write a report to wcag about things not covered by 2.1 SC
17:39:17 <allanj> shawn: lv needs can be met by wcag 2.1 sc from lvtf and UAAG20
17:40:08 <shawn> s/lv needs can be met by wcag 2.1 sc from lvtf and UAAG20/ if we can say "lv needs can be met by wcag 2.1 sc from lvtf and UAAG20" that would be awesome
17:41:06 <allanj> RESOLUTION: Font https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Font is ready for WCAG
17:41:21 <allanj> topic: seeing all interface elements
17:41:30 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Seeing_All_Interface_Elements
17:42:43 <shawn> +1 for simplifying this and taking our the cursor issue (since it's covered elsewhere)
17:42:55 <ScottM> +1
17:42:58 <shawn> +1 for simplifying this and taking out the cursor issue (since it's covered elsewhere) -- in the text and the examples
17:43:53 <JohnRochford> Metadata SC: Informational content that is only shown by hovering a mouse over an element is not used as the only means of conveying information and does not obscure other content.
17:54:03 <allanj> group editing.
17:54:12 <allanj> Any objections?
17:54:12 <ScottM> +1
17:54:17 <allanj> +1
17:54:22 <Glenda> +1
17:54:29 <laura> +1
17:54:31 <JohnRochford> +1
17:55:03 <allanj> RESOLUTION: Seeing all Interface elements https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Seeing_All_Interface_Element is ready for WCAG
17:55:16 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
18:02:10 <allanj> review requirements, uaag 20... see whats missing... write a new document for wcag.
18:02:14 <laura> Lots of green: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Tracking_Success_Criteria_Progress
18:02:15 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
18:05:58 <shawn> cheers to the group all around and for specific individuals who especially contributed extra
18:06:04 <shawn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
18:29:54 <Glenda> Glenda has left #lvtf