18:01:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
18:01:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-irc
18:01:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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18:01:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:01:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:01:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:01:13 <trackbot> Date: 01 December 2016
18:01:28 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:01:45 <janina> present+ Janina
18:01:47 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
18:02:18 <Rich> chair: Rich
18:03:07 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Nov/0061.html
18:04:53 <clown> clown has joined #aria
18:06:15 <jongund> scribe: jongund
18:06:46 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Nov/0007.html
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18:06:52 <jongund> RS: ARIA DPUB aria module went to CR
18:06:57 <Jason_Duan> Jason_Duan has joined #aria
18:07:01 <jongund> RS: Wehn will it be published
18:07:24 <jongund> MC: Aiming for the 13th
18:07:27 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
18:07:28 <jongund> RS: Excellent
18:07:40 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Nov/0024.html
18:07:40 <jongund> RA: ARIA in HTML is out for review
18:07:45 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:07:52 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-html-aria-20161121/
18:08:23 <jongund> JG: I will look at
18:08:39 <jongund> RS: How do we create action items?
18:08:47 <jongund> MC: There is no distinction
18:09:03 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues
18:09:09 <jongund> MC: You have to go to the GitHub user interface to do it
18:09:24 <jongund> MC: We can add people to contributors
18:09:34 <jongund> RS: Who is in the list?
18:10:24 <jongund> RS: We can add comments
18:10:28 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
18:10:44 <jongund> MC: DO we want individual comments or group comments
18:11:07 <jongund> JG: I can make a wiki
18:11:22 <jongund> MC: I think we should use tracker
18:11:40 <Rich> action: Jon create wiki with feedback on aria-html. others contribute to it.
18:11:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2128 - Create wiki with feedback on aria-html. others contribute to it. [on Jon Gunderson - due 2016-12-08].
18:12:08 <jongund> RS: What product do we associate that with
18:12:18 <clown> action-2128
18:12:18 <trackbot> action-2128 -- Jon Gunderson to Create wiki with feedback on aria-html. others contribute to it. -- due 2016-12-08 -- OPEN
18:12:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2128
18:12:27 <jongund> MC: We should leave it unassociated right now
18:12:50 <jongund> MC: We should stop using tracker with ARIA in its name
18:13:01 <jongund> MC: How about Misc. product
18:13:45 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-2128 with product-56
18:13:45 <trackbot> action-2128 (Create wiki with feedback on aria-html. others contribute to it.) associated with product-56.
18:13:48 <jongund> TOPIC: Comment from Karl Groves
18:13:51 <Rich> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/486
18:14:05 <jongund> RS: We need to have a response, I did respond
18:14:59 <jongund> RS: We feels host language should have precedence
18:15:42 <jongund> RS: The host language determines what is allowed and what is not
18:16:07 <jongund> RS: Looking at his last comment on "...not possible", the host language should determine, not ARIA
18:16:10 <jongund> JS: Maybe
18:16:30 <clown> <input type="text" role="spinbutton">
18:16:37 <jongund> JS: I thought he had a deeper claim that LABEL should win over all ARIA
18:16:55 <jongund> JS: SPIN Button example
18:17:16 <jongund> JS: Are you going to write the spec about all the do or do nots
18:17:33 <jongund> RS: Right but a spin button can be a container for...
18:18:01 <jongund> JS: People have done this to make a left, right, up and down to make a spin button out of a text box
18:18:14 <jongund> RS: The host language needs to limit it, not ARIA
18:18:18 <jnurthen> q+
18:18:43 <jongund> RS: ARIA says that the host language can restrict what roles can limit
18:18:57 <jongund> JS: Lests find it and make sure it says that
18:19:18 <jongund> JN: It's linked in the GitHub issue "Host general conflicts"
18:19:31 <jongund> JN: The link is wrong though
18:19:45 <jongund> JN: Section 7.5
18:20:43 <jongund> JN: I disagree that we should allow host language restrictions, I think ARIA always winning would make things simplier
18:20:56 <jongund> RS: .... reading the spec...
18:21:58 <jongund> RS: I think we already address this
18:22:26 <jongund> RS: If there is a problem it should be discussed with the host language working group
18:22:52 <jongund> RS: Do you think the ARIA spec text addresses his point?
18:23:05 <jongund> RS: Here is an instance where he is wrong
18:23:53 <jongund> RS: A WYSIWYG that can add a radio button and its label
18:24:07 <jongund> JS: You are editing the label
18:24:28 <jongund> RS: I think this should be done in the host language and we provide for that
18:24:38 <jongund> RS: Any other ideas?
18:25:02 <jongund> JS: You are using Javascript to repurpose an element to something else
18:25:14 <jongund> JS: ARIA in general should win
18:25:33 <jongund> RS: We have provisions in the ARIA spec to deal with this
18:25:42 <jongund> RS: Any other comments?
18:25:50 <jongund> RS: We need to render a decision
18:26:25 <jongund> MC: I am not sure how to use Github for consensus
18:26:54 <jongund> MC: Never clear if it is a group decisions or an individual
18:27:18 <jongund> Janina: You want consensus by the working group on the wording
18:29:38 <Rich> Proposal: In general the ARIA working group believe that if the author has gone to such great lenghts to repurpose a host language element such that they would require an ARIA role to be applied to make it accessible they should be able to. That said, we do have a provision in the ARIA spec. to address conflicts with host languanges in this section of ARIA: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict . The specific text that
18:29:38 <Rich> addresses your concern is this: “Therefore, to prevent providing conflicting states and properties to assistive technologies, host languages MUST explicitly declare where the use of WAI-ARIA attributes on each host language element conflicts with native attributes for that element. When a host language declares a WAI-ARIA attribute to be in direct semantic conflict with a native attribute for a given element, user agents MUST ignore the WAI-ARIA
18:29:39 <Rich> attribute and instead use the host language attribute with the same implicit semantic.”
18:30:41 <clown> "user agents MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not the native semantic, unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose attributes are explicitly forbidden on the native element by the host language."
18:31:56 <Rich> Proposal: Proposal: In general the ARIA working group believe that if the author has gone to such great lenghts to repurpose a host language element such that they would require an ARIA role to be applied to make it accessible they should be able to. That said, we do have a provision in the ARIA spec. to address conflicts with host languanges in this section of ARIA: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict . When a WAI-ARIA
18:31:57 <Rich> role is provided, user agents MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not the native semantic, unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose attributes are explicitly forbidden on the native element by the host language. Values for roles do not conflict in the same way as values for states and properties (for example, the HTML 'checked' attribute and the 'aria-checked' attribute could have conflicting values), and
18:31:57 <Rich> authors are expected to have valid reason to provide a WAI-ARIA role even on elements that would not normally be repurposed.
18:33:26 <Rich> RESOLUTION: Reponse to comment from Karl Groves is: In general the ARIA working group believe that if the author has gone to such great lenghts to repurpose a host language element such that they would require an ARIA role to be applied to make it accessible they should be able to. That said, we do have a provision in the ARIA spec. to address conflicts with host languanges in this section of ARIA:
18:33:27 <Rich> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict . When a WAI-ARIA role is provided, user agents MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not the native semantic, unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose attributes are explicitly forbidden on the native element by the host language. Values for roles do not conflict in the same way as values for states and properties (for example, the HTML
18:33:27 <Rich> 'checked' attribute and the 'aria-checked' attribute could have conflicting values), and authors are expected to have valid reason to provide a WAI-ARIA role even on elements that would not normally be repurposed.
18:33:54 <jongund> RS: We got the resolution
18:34:41 <Rich> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/486
18:35:19 <Rich> Rich: the issue is now closed
18:35:46 <jongund> TOPIC: Testable Statements
18:35:58 <jongund> MC: We have an echo problem with JN
18:36:15 <jongund> RS: So I have been holding off on this, waiting for JC
18:36:28 <jongund> RS: We are waiting for him
18:36:48 <jongund> RS: Microsoft is also working on the core mappings
18:36:54 <jongund> JS: There is a question for you
18:37:46 <jongund> RS: The problem they had, they wanted to do an expand/collapse pattern, ..., but was not required, I don't know what his response was...
18:38:08 <jongund> RS: I want the expand/collapse pattern could have popup set
18:38:14 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/467#issuecomment-264236294
18:38:38 <jongund> JS: They will still use the expand/collapse pattern
18:38:46 <jongund> RS: I am fine with it
18:39:31 <jongund> RS: I have a branch conflict
18:39:51 <jongund> RS: It makes sense to me, it has to go in there
18:40:00 <jongund> RSL He needs to fix the conflicts
18:40:07 <jongund> JS: In that pull request
18:40:30 <jongund> RS: We should be seeing progress in filling out the table
18:40:42 <jongund> RS: The gap we have now
18:41:33 <jongund> RS: WHen do think you get started
18:43:00 <jongund> JG: We have been making progress, trying to make
18:43:13 <jongund> RS: They may be using a version 2
18:43:26 <jongund> RS: I can send you send me new links
18:44:18 <jongund> RS: You can talk to James Teh and Alexander Z
18:45:01 <jongund> RS: Also know that Brett Lewis form FS
18:45:43 <jongund> RS: I am trying to get both NVDA and FS more involved
18:45:56 <jongund> RS: Send a note to them and copy me
18:46:15 <jongund> RS: Joanie gets back next week, that will help to
18:46:33 <jongund> RS: We left off with the U element in HTML5
18:46:41 <jongund> MC: I need to look at the minutes
18:47:18 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#textlevel-semantics
18:47:21 <jongund> MC: We created a big issue
18:47:43 <jongund> MC: The TOC is better than the section for me
18:47:52 <jongund> MC: We looked at ......
18:48:23 <jongund> RS: I didn't see SUB/SUP?? discussed
18:48:40 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/485
18:48:44 <jongund> MC: Issue 485
18:49:04 <jongund> MC: We did not look at Ruby and its related elements....
18:49:16 <jongund> RS: Is Ruby even mapped in HTML5?
18:49:25 <jongund> MC: Tis is part of the triage
18:49:30 <jongund> JS: Not found
18:49:41 <MichaelC> https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
18:49:54 <jongund> MC: editors draft and was updated yesterday
18:50:10 <jongund> MC: I am not sure what they are doing on it
18:50:11 <clown> https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
18:50:16 <jongund> RS: Let's look at Ruby
18:50:24 <clown> https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-ruby
18:50:53 <jongund> MC: The accessibility APIs don't know what t do with Ruby
18:51:06 <jongund> JS: What does Ruby do?
18:51:45 <jongund> MC: When some languages that can have ambiguous means to explain its meaning
18:51:53 <jongund> JS: ALT text for text
18:52:25 <jongund> MC: We might want to talk to Japanese screen reader users to learn more about this isse
18:52:44 <jongund> MC: Do as a Github issue?
18:52:47 <jongund> RS: Yes
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18:54:15 <MichaelC> GH-ISSUE 488 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/488
18:54:39 <jnurthen> https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-ruby-element
18:54:54 <jongund> JN: There are tons of examples in HTML5 spec
18:55:10 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-data-element
18:55:27 <jongund> MC: The data element we did not look at
18:56:27 <Rich> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/data
18:56:46 <jongund> RS: You have the data and then you have a value, like a UCP code
18:57:00 <clown> https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-data
18:57:21 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-abbr-element
18:57:28 <jongund> MC: the next one ABBR
18:57:45 <clown> https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-abbr
18:58:18 <jongund> I must be mutted
18:58:26 <jongund> Can someone push the minutes?
18:58:31 <jongund> I have another meeting now
18:58:59 <jongund> I need to leave now
18:59:24 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:59:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html jongund
19:01:28 <MichaelC> Still to triage from text-level semantics section: time, mark, bdi/bdo, br/wbr
19:02:51 <Rich> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:02:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html Rich
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