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16:47:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/21-dpub-irc
16:47:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:47:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
16:47:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
16:47:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
16:47:21 <trackbot> Date: 21 November 2016
16:47:38 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Nov/0079.html
16:47:43 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
16:47:59 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda 2016-11-21: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Nov/0079.html
16:49:03 <ivan> Regrets: Leonard, Karen
16:49:24 <ivan> Regrets+ Ben
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16:58:30 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
16:59:23 <tzviya> present+
16:59:35 <laudrain> present+
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17:00:43 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
17:00:56 <astearns> present+
17:01:00 <ivan> Present+
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17:01:28 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
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17:01:41 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
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17:01:45 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
17:01:50 <Bert> present+
17:01:53 <garth> present+ garth
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17:04:14 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/11/14-dpub-minutes.html
17:04:21 <cmaden2> scribenick: cmaden2
17:04:34 <cmaden2> tzviya: minutes approved
17:04:47 <Vlad> present+
17:04:55 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/
17:05:00 <rdeltour> present+
17:05:07 <ivan> Topic: Updated to DPUB-PWP
17:05:53 <George> George has joined #dpub
17:05:54 <tzviya> q?
17:05:55 <cmaden2> tzviya: ivan proposed changed to dpub-pwp over last two years… asked for proposals last week. there are a few things in GitHub, picking it up again this week.
17:06:12 <George> present+ George
17:06:53 <cmaden2> ivan: to clarify what i did: toc is main thing to look at. lots of discussion around use cases, which have restructured our thinking. dpub-pwp is now reorganized around that approach.
17:07:31 <cmaden2> ivan: reshuffled, very little editorial change. old technical section (§4); some sections mostly empty.
17:08:05 <cmaden2> ivan: empty sections on api, pub object model, maybe we don’t even want that.
17:08:46 <cmaden2> ivan: §5 also needs more throrough review
17:08:58 <cmaden2> s/thororugh/thorough/
17:09:16 <cmaden2> s/throrough/thorough/
17:09:50 <cmaden2> ivan: section on epub(?) also needs complete rewrite
17:10:01 <tzviya> q?
17:10:20 <tzviya> s/epub(?)/epub4
17:11:02 <cmaden2> bill: my opinion is epub should be a profile of pwp; could be discussed in §5, instead of having its own section
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17:12:06 <cmaden2> ivan: there was a whole section on epub3 vs. pwp because everybody asked. being able to describe epub in terms of pwp would also be a good response… ivan needs input
17:12:46 <cmaden2> tzviya: reminder that ivan is not going to be the sole author of this document. we all need to provide input.
17:13:26 <cmaden2> bill: i can take that on, will try to use epub and a few other examples to consider as pwp profiles
17:13:30 <tzviya> q?
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17:13:59 <cmaden2> ivan: what should the title of the document be?
17:14:58 <cmaden2> ivan: packaging is a separate notion from web publication… open web pub (owp)?
17:15:02 <dauwhe> q+
17:15:54 <tzviya> ack da
17:15:58 <cmaden2> tzviya: matt garrish(?) is editor of epub specs, would be useful reviewer. tzviya and he are OK with web pub being title, packaging being an additional thing, though some people think packaging is superimportant.
17:16:11 <tzviya> s/garrish(?)/garrish
17:16:17 <cmaden2> dave: i support calling it web publication. packaging in title does more harm than good.
17:16:52 <cmaden2> ivan: i use “pwp” or “wp” as abbrs, but sometimes “(p)wp.”
17:17:24 <cmaden2> ivan: but how to refer to publication, whether packaged or not?
17:17:34 <cmaden2> dave: web pub in title, but packaged (lc) web publication is just a kind of web pub…
17:17:44 <cmaden2> bill: pwp could even be a profile of a wp.
17:18:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:18:51 <cmaden2> ?: we need to be careful to keep packaging prominent and important
17:19:00 <tzviya> s/?/garth
17:19:06 <tzviya> ack bi
17:19:28 <cmaden2> bill: profile was sort of a joke, since the pub needs to be portable
17:20:15 <cmaden2> george: as an author, i see creating a publication locally, then packaging it for distribution, unpacked for web publication. that’s how i see one way of using it.
17:20:29 <cmaden2> george: how i see lots of them being created.
17:20:43 <laudrain> q+
17:21:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/portable/packageable
17:21:27 <ivan> q+
17:21:46 <cmaden2> tzviya: additional apis section. does that belong in *this* document, or something auxiliary? a technical or api doc?
17:22:04 <laudrain> q-
17:22:07 <tzviya> ack lu
17:23:07 <tzviya> ack iv
17:23:10 <cmaden2> luc: second george, information must be gathered for publication, is a kind of packaging, so pwp is ok
17:25:38 <cmaden2> ivan: i see specification as layered. document collection api. in html land, api is one single dom; going over multiple doms needed to do things like pagination. similar to idea that web pub is just a collection of resources… so the idea of the api does fit into this document. next layer is more complicated; anyone who has programmatically interacted with epub knows it’s complicated.
17:26:21 <cmaden2> ivan: that layer is more practical, a way to standardize the way to hide the complexity of the web pub.
17:26:37 <tzviya> q?
17:27:02 <cmaden2> ivan: it’s one person’s mostly-unchecked proposal, and the community is quiet, so maybe it doesn’t belong here.
17:27:06 <dauwhe> q+
17:27:42 <cmaden2> tzviya: it’s important, and we aren’t the only ones with the ideas (as this week’s activity shows), but maybe this is the wrong place to discuss this.
17:27:47 <ivan> q+
17:27:49 <garth> q+
17:27:51 <tzviya> ack da
17:28:22 <tzviya> ack iv
17:28:23 <cmaden2> dave: idea of an api to deal with pubs is important; we may not know what shape it will take, but we need something in the doc that says this will be a key piece.
17:29:30 <tzviya> ack ga
17:29:31 <cmaden2> ivan: this doc is not a technical spec, so it’s fine to say, “these items are important and have to be solved.” even if we or a wg don’t solve it, it’s still good to note that this an important part of the eventual technical spec.
17:30:43 <cmaden2> garth: was going to go the other way, but dave and ivan changed my mind. we need to be careful not to predispose the chartering effort, but ivan makes good points. potentially a “boil the ocean” area… was going to say remove these, but ivan’s position that it’s potential input is good… equivocation.
17:31:15 <cmaden2> tzviya: consensus seems to be that we need to keep these mentions in the document.
17:32:14 <cmaden2> george: is this a long doc?
17:32:31 <cmaden2> tzviya: no, though that depends on perspective…
17:33:20 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/issues/29
17:33:24 <cmaden2> topic: locators
17:33:58 <cmaden2> tzviya: packaged, unpackaged, and canonical locators. do we need locators for resources inside a packaged publication?
17:34:37 <cmaden2> tzviya: ! locators; and do we need separate canonical locators? use of “canonical” may be confusing or misleading.
17:34:48 <cmaden2> tzviya: hadrian suggested hrefsrc attribute.
17:35:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:36:13 <cmaden2> ivan: original use case… what may have changed is that we made a big deal about difference between online and offline versions. after discussions, that divide may not be that important any more. packaged vs. unpackaged is a bigger deal.
17:36:34 <cmaden2> ivan: look at original use cases (in ucr) and start discussion over again.
17:37:28 <tzviya> ack bi
17:37:40 <cmaden2> tzviya: there was context missing from original discussions, concept of state. do we really need to create what is really a fragment identifier. dave suggests we can use what’s already out there, and hadrian’s suggestion was similar.
17:38:26 <cmaden2> bill: we came up with “canonical” because we couldn’t come up with a publication identifier. also, completely agree with reusing already-extant things, esp. use annotation wg for identifiers.
17:38:34 <ivan> q+
17:38:40 <cmaden2> tzviya: annotations doesn’t have one fragment id, uses whatever.
17:38:55 <tzviya> ack iv
17:38:58 <dauwhe> q+
17:38:59 <cmaden2> bill: yes, align with them. fragment in video is different from text, and that’s ok and appropriate.
17:39:43 <ivan> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/selector-note/index-respec.html
17:40:05 <ivan> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/selector-note/index-respec.html#frags
17:40:19 <cmaden2> ivan: yes and no… annotation rec does not define fragment. selector note (not a standard) does have a way to translate selectors into fragment ids and back. ugly, but it works.
17:41:09 <cmaden2> bill: aligning with annotations is good, but maybe not sufficient. still need to identify the publication itself.
17:41:26 <cmaden2> ivan: these are different questions; we should not get into how to identify a publication.
17:41:36 <cmaden2> bill: that’s what canonical locators were for.
17:41:53 <tzviya> ack da
17:41:57 <cmaden2> ivan: we can extend and standardize annotation fragment identifiers, if that’s something we want to do. not sure if we do, but it’s possible.
17:43:37 <cmaden2> dave: motivation for filing this issue was, what is the function of the packaged or portable pub? seems to treat packaged as a peer of unpackaged, fully equivalent. my thinking is that the package is for transmissal, unpacked by recipient, and then the same as unpackaged, effectively. i’m susceptible to epub bias; we should try to avoid that.
17:43:41 <garth> q+
17:43:54 <tzviya> ack ga
17:45:06 <cmaden2> garth: i think there will still be reading systems that think of rendering a packaged item. that’s an important constituency.
17:45:26 <cmaden2> tzviya: though it seems that the exploded epub is the mo for reading systems.
17:45:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:45:41 <cmaden2> garth: clearly you take it apart to render it.
17:45:50 <astearns> unpacking/exploding is perhaps just done in order to load a browser's cache?
17:45:53 <tzviya> ack bi
17:46:15 <Hadrien> q+
17:46:33 <tzviya> ack ha
17:46:34 <cmaden2> bill: unpackaging doesn’t mean exploding with parts everywhere, more unwrapping, still together, still in relationships, but not in the package any more.
17:46:49 <cmaden2> s/hadrian/hadrien/g
17:47:34 <cmaden2> hadrien: as long as a resource in a package can be traced to a uri on the web, we don’t need to worry about packaged/unpacked. what’s the uri for the publication, and what’s the uri for a particular resource, is sufficient to handle any case, packaged/unpackaged, online/offline.
17:48:39 <cmaden2> ivan: that’s very close to what we said. the manifest is a way to have the unique identifier of this thing and its location on the web. any processor can switch between the two as needed.
17:49:26 <cmaden2> topic: css tpac
17:49:30 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Nov/0035.html
17:49:43 <cmaden2> tzviya: we have action items from tpac we committed to.
17:50:24 <cmaden2> tzviya: feedback on media queries level 4. if you committed to something, please work on it.
17:50:36 <astearns> liam has been working on his task
17:50:52 <cmaden2> tzviya: media queries in mathml; there’s been some work.
17:51:20 <cmaden2> george: collected examples people sent, but haven’t identified time to go through it with the group.
17:51:29 <cmaden2> tzviya: pkra had concerns, too; touch base with him.
17:52:21 <clapierre> q+
17:52:26 <tzviya> ack cl
17:53:01 <ivan> Regrets+ Laurent
17:53:10 <Avneesh> q+
17:53:12 <cmaden2> charles: we stopped work on it because we don’t think media queries will do what we want to do. george and i are now thinking about image and fallback, offscreen mathml… possibly no longer to do with css.
17:53:47 <tzviya> ack av
17:53:49 <cmaden2> tzviya: character-based alignment. dave had committed to getting examples. dino said he’d get it on apple’s radar. i committed to sending some examples. anyone else?
17:54:15 <laudrain> q+
17:54:30 <cmaden2> avneesh: mathml short-term solution, providing techniques. long-term, we may collaborate with css. not leaving it, but it’s a long-term thing.
17:54:33 <tzviya> ack la
17:55:08 <tzviya> q?
17:55:15 <cmaden2> luc: got samples of ways *not* to do it. looking for good samples.
17:55:44 <cmaden2> tzviya: will send crazy table examples more broadly.
17:56:01 <cmaden2> tzviya: css vs. xsl-fo. liam has been working on this.
17:56:57 <cmaden2> tzviya: page-floats. johannes has done some work, needs better error handling. is anything needed from us? dave will let us know.
17:57:14 <cmaden2> tzviya: hanging punctuation. (type nerds!!!)
17:58:00 <cmaden2> dave: originally designed for cjk, could property values be adapted to western languages? what should happen, how much control do authors need?
17:59:36 <cmaden2> dave: accessibility questions are particularly interesting… will ask for anything he needs
18:00:04 <tzviya> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/proposal-list-head-caption-title/1832
18:00:51 <cmaden2> tzviya: things we want from the broader w3c community. talked with robin berjon, proposal for list title in web community incubator. well-received, draft spec.
18:01:32 <cmaden2> tzviya: if there are other things we want, this is how we ask for it. dave has suggested a dpub label. comment on the item in wicg, don’t just e-mail me.
18:01:33 <tzviya> q?
18:01:47 <cmaden2> ivan: i think i can set up that label.
18:02:30 <cmaden2> tzviya & ivan: go ahead and make proposals there, too. worst that can happen is no1curr
18:03:30 <cmaden2> ivan: do i have action items on the doc?
18:03:36 <cmaden2> tzviya: can wait till next week.
18:04:25 <clapierre> clapierre has left #dpub
18:09:46 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:09:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/21-dpub-minutes.html ivan
18:09:53 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
18:09:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:09:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, tzviya, laudrain, Chris_Maden, astearns, ivan, Avneesh, Deborah_Kaplan, Charles_LaPierre, Bert, garth, Bill_Kasdorf, Vlad,
18:09:56 <Zakim> ... rdeltour, George
18:10:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:10:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/21-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
18:10:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:10:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items