15:55:39 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 15:55:39 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-mobile-a11y-irc 15:55:41 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:55:41 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 15:55:43 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 15:55:43 ok, trackbot 15:55:44 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:55:44 Date: 17 November 2016 15:56:16 Regrets+ Detlev 15:56:27 Present+ 16:00:24 laura has joined #mobile-a11y 16:01:20 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 16:01:45 Agenda+ Continuation of SC review - https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/tree/gh-pages/SCs , https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements M9: Pointer inputs with additional sensors (was: Advanced pointer input) https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/gh-pages/SCs/m9.md 16:01:46 Agenda+ M11: Speech Input https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Speech_Input 16:01:48 Agenda+ Final review of all proposed SCs. 16:01:49 Agenda+ Next steps and schedule 16:07:31 Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y 16:09:30 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Speech_Input 16:09:31 Present + Jatin 16:10:40 Kathy: M11 email thread on that this week 16:11:01 TOPIC: M11 16:11:26 Kathy: proposed change: All functionality of the content does not obstruct a user’s ability to access the commands through speech input. 16:11:35 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y 16:11:37 Kathy: objections to changing language? 16:11:41 no objections. 16:11:44 present+ chriscm 16:16:12 present+ marcjohlic 16:16:29 Check if all functions designed for input can also be activated via speech 16:16:32 present+ Kathy 16:16:36 davidmacdonald has joined #mobile-a11y 16:16:50 having trouble getting in... will keep trying 16:17:07 I'll rewrite examples including hidden text, mismatched label, single key shortcuts reference and keyboard input reference 16:19:04 I'm in now 16:19:07 Kathy: how to test 16:19:52 Kim: problem is hidden tags aren't appropriate for speech users – in a perfect world there would be a separate place for speech labels and uses would be able to hide them or not 16:20:45 Kathy: I've been talking to people at accessing higher ground and knowing checks for this. But we are proposing is to take the new language, put a link to the email thread and also note that this may be covered under 3.3.2 or 1.3.1 and have it in there is a note for the working group but submitted as is and let the working group decide what to do. 16:21:10 Kathy: if we are saying that this is something that is covered it is not apparent to experts I've talked to 16:21:19 Kathy: even checking to see that the visual label and accessible name are the same 16:21:31 David: if that's the problem I'd rather see that in a success criteria 16:21:43 Kathy: there's also problem with hidden text on the page. I gave the mismatch as a specific example 16:22:04 Kathy: if there is hidden text on a page you can accidentally activate things or do unintentional things 16:22:22 David: so that's when you're talking about obstructing – to me the label not matching the accessible aim doesn't act like an obstruction issue 16:22:34 Kathy: it obstructs someone from activating that button – they have to go around and use some of the other methods 16:23:03 David: when I read this and I think about obstruction I never think of a mismatched label 16:23:28 Kathy: that's why we are going to put that language in there – Kim is taking the first stab at rewriting this one – understanding language 16:24:13 Kathy: when I say you need to be keyboard accessible it doesn't go into all the details about you need to use this key. The understanding document is something that should be explaining what this is and what is required and the techniques help further to make it easier to understand 16:24:38 Kathy: do we make the success criteria really granular or do we have one that covers multiple things 16:25:20 Kathy: this is also now impacting mobile – androids new voice access – I accidentally activated things even though with the voice access all you're doing is saying a particular number 16:26:35 Kathy: voice access the new beta for the new version of android – there version of Dragon NaturallySpeaking on the android platform. You're doing everything by numbers. So it really reminds me of mouse was browsing plug-in – it's using that philosophy. You can also say things like scroll down scroll up. But you can do a lot by numbers. It also works on the web. So for users who use speech... 16:26:37 ...input and what is now viable platform although I'm sure there are still issues. But you can actually do all functions now through speech. 16:27:12 Kathy: that's where we are on that one and we were just saying does anybody object. 16:27:30 David: I don't object. I'd like to see of the top four things are the top five things were trying to address, make it a little more understandable 16:28:19 David: including but not limited to 16:28:28 Kathy: but what if there's a different way of doing it in the future – may be limiting 16:28:44 David: if we want to have something that actually lasts, or something new in two years 16:29:02 Kathy: mobile is changing right now. Android and iOS are actively working on it. So within a year, six months, within that time. We could have some major changes in that 16:29:11 David: sounds good 16:29:17 Kathy: any other thoughts, objections 16:31:38 RESOLUTION: Accept changed language for success criteria, submit to working group with a note to email thread about SC 3.3.2 and 1.3.1 for working group evaluation 16:33:22 Kim: speech input hidden text – if you say one of the words in hidden text you can accidentally activate – you have no idea what's happened 16:33:38 Kathy: it can be area label, hidden text within the button 16:33:49 David: this is like when you do the curb cuts in the blind people can't find the edge of the curb 16:34:59 Kathy: I think were going to have that across cognitive as well. We've always known that things you do can impact other users. One of the things that you are always balancing is looking at what is accessible for group of users – there are issues there that need to be addressed and is worth bringing to the attention of the working group. This is something that is not being addressed 16:37:38 https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/gh-pages/SCs/m9.md 16:37:40 David: talking about putting up a test page to show people how text works 16:37:56 TOPIC: M9 16:38:11 Kathy: we talked about this last week 16:38:26 Kathy: David, I know you talked about this one being very similar to the other one 16:38:39 David: there's the machine sensor and the screen sensor. I almost want to say without additional screen sensor permission 16:39:45 Kathy: the other one that we have was pointer inputs with additional sensors and then we have M10 – difference is touch. 16:39:56 Kathy: one requires the use of an additional thing that is not built into the device 16:40:11 David: you mean pressure sensitive touchscreens, tilt, twist 16:40:47 Kathy: long press, also scrolls down the screen thats covered under M9, I'm using either touch or stylus or other way 16:40:54 David: tilt of pointer, not tilt of device 16:41:00 David: you want to say pointer tilt 16:41:10 Kathy: will change that 16:41:39 Marc: what about angle 16:42:04 David: tilt X – they have an image of it with the pointer tilting 16:42:40 Kim: device tilt, pointer tilt 16:43:30 Kathy: includes pressure, tilt, twist using a pointer 16:44:28 Kathy: pointer pressure, pointer tilt, pointer twist 16:45:00 Chris: just to clarify this is referring to things like styluses – all pointers 16:46:48 Chris: someone who can't hold the stylus 16:47:03 Kathy: someone who can hold a stylus but can't tilt it 16:47:57 Kathy: one more meeting December 2 to finalize and make any last changes 16:48:00 Benefit: "Users who can hold a stylus, but lack dexterity to perform precise movements" 16:48:11 Kathy: next week no meeting because Thanksgiving iin US 16:48:35 Kathy: we need testability – suggest language for testability 16:49:26 Chris: specific exceptions for this? 16:49:35 Kathy: No 16:50:05 test 1) test each function with a simple pointer (no pressure, tilt, ext of the pointer) 16:50:22 Kathy: we need to write how we would tested, but not the test procedure 16:50:33 It should work without advanced pointer functions 16:51:06 Kathy: any other changes? 16:51:39 Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y 16:52:58 RESOLUTION: submit M9 as modified 16:54:02 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/3 16:54:13 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/3 16:54:43 TOPIC: M 16 16:55:26 David: trying to provide notification usually through area live – spin things 16:55:38 Kathy: we've got pages busy, but how about page orientation – automatically switching from one page orientation to the other 16:55:51 David: is there any visual indicators of orientation switching 16:56:00 Kathy: fact that the screen is moving – usually showing it tilting 16:56:09 Chris: like an animation 16:56:56 Kathy: new UI interfaces where you have parallax – some of that is also visual indicators saying that there's something happening but it's not readily apparent – there's no programmatic notification of that – there's no way to get it if all you're doing is looking at the content on the page. 16:57:13 David: not thinking that there's something easy to put into this like page scrolling down makes you dizzy 16:57:28 Kathy: to me this is more notification of page changes 16:58:14 Kathy: daylong session a lot of comments came about portrait versus landscape – switching back and forth and the screen reader would talk about one thing and then it wouldn't be available in the next screen. It's the same issue as page loading. 16:58:22 David: adding or change of orientation 16:58:51 +1 approving it 16:59:03 +1 16:59:07 David: change of screen orientation 17:00:26 RESOLUTION: submit M16 as modified 17:02:01 Yes next meeting December 1, no meeting next week because it's US Thanksgiving 17:02:42 rrsagent, make minutes 17:02:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:03:41 Present+ Kim, David 17:13:48 rrsagent, make minutes 17:13:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:14:19 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 17:14:51 Present+ Shadi 17:14:56 rrsagent, make minutes 17:14:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:28:21 rrsagent, bye 17:28:21 I see no action items