14:59:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:59:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-irc
14:59:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:59:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:59:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:59:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:58 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2016
15:00:17 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
15:00:52 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-minutes.html AllanJ
15:01:27 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
15:03:15 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #lvtf
15:15:47 <AllanJ> Chair: Jim
15:16:01 <AllanJ> regrets: Shawn, Alastair
15:49:09 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Contrast: Interactive Elements
15:49:21 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Contrast: Informational Graphics
15:49:34 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Line Length
15:49:58 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Reflow to Single Column
15:50:13 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Text Colors
15:50:26 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
15:52:24 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Metadata on Hover
15:57:27 <Marla> Marla has joined #LVTF
15:57:31 <jim> jim has joined #lvtf
15:58:00 <erich> erich has joined #lvtf
15:58:09 <JohnRochford> q+
15:58:25 <jim> ack j
15:58:25 <JohnRochford> q-
16:00:15 <AllanJ> agenda?
16:00:24 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
16:01:16 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
16:01:39 <JohnRochford> present+
16:01:50 <JohnRochford> present+ AllanJ
16:02:01 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
16:02:02 <JohnRochford> present+ erich
16:02:07 <laura> present+ Laura
16:02:09 <JohnRochford> present+ Marla
16:02:11 <erich> present+
16:02:14 <JohnRochford> present+ laura
16:02:27 <JohnRochford> present+ Wayne
16:04:07 <laura> Welcome Marla!
16:04:37 <JohnRochford> scribe:JohnRochford
16:04:56 <AllanJ> open item 1
16:05:16 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
16:06:42 <scottm> scottm has joined #lvtf
16:07:19 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: This is as close as we are going to get, I think.
16:07:49 <JohnRochford> (referring to the SC with URL above)
16:08:55 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: John Avila had an exception, but I agree with Glenda that we should leave it out for now.
16:09:16 <JohnRochford> +1 to leaving it out for now
16:09:51 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: Okay with all to leave it out for now?
16:10:38 <JohnRochford> Hey you, TF members, how about a
16:10:45 <JohnRochford> +1 or -1?
16:11:11 <erich> +1
16:11:27 <AllanJ> 1
16:11:32 <laura> +1
16:11:33 <JohnRochford> Wayne: +1
16:11:41 <AllanJ> +1
16:12:28 <AllanJ> present+ AWK
16:12:34 <AllanJ> present+ Scott
16:13:20 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
16:13:20 <JohnRochford> Andrew: WCAG working group meetings are Tuesdays, 11 AM Eastern Time.
16:14:20 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION:https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
16:15:37 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION:https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum) Ready for WCAG.
16:15:42 <AWK> Jim will update Issue #10 (https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/10) with the wiki content
16:16:01 <AllanJ> Actiion: Jim to update WCAG Github with new text for contrast Minimum (tag with LVTF and ready for review)
16:16:13 <AllanJ> Action: Jim to update WCAG Github with new text for contrast Minimum (tag with LVTF and ready for review)
16:16:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Update wcag github with new text for contrast minimum (tag with lvtf and ready for review) [on Jim Allan - due 2016-11-24].
16:16:32 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 1
16:16:32 <Zakim> agendum 1, Contrast: Interactive Elements, closed
16:16:34 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:34 <Zakim> 2. Contrast: Informational Graphics [from AllanJ]
16:16:44 <AllanJ> open, item 2
16:16:57 <AllanJ> zakim, open item 2
16:16:57 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Contrast: Informational Graphics" taken up [from AllanJ]
16:17:36 <Wayne> +1
16:17:42 <JohnRochford> Wayne: +1 to this SC
16:18:01 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford: +1
16:18:08 <laura> +1
16:18:22 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: Any objections to this one?
16:18:31 <AllanJ> no objections
16:18:33 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_(Minimum)
16:19:16 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_(Minimum) Ready for WCAG.
16:19:24 <AllanJ> Action: Jim to update WCAG Gitup for Graphic Contrast Minimum https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_(Minimum)
16:19:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Update wcag gitup for graphic contrast minimum https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/informational_graphic_contrast_(minimum) [on Jim Allan - due 2016-11-24].
16:19:38 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 2
16:19:38 <Zakim> agendum 2, Contrast: Informational Graphics, closed
16:19:39 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:19:39 <Zakim> 3. Line Length [from AllanJ]
16:19:40 <laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/9
16:22:27 <AllanJ> zakim, open item 3
16:22:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Line Length" taken up [from AllanJ]
16:22:41 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Line_Length
16:23:43 <AllanJ> alistair: I'm not convinced that this SC adds anything if we have reflow. I might just not be getting it, see my email in that thread.
16:25:28 <JohnRochford> Andrew: Is there any scenario that someone would want fewer than 80 characters?
16:25:53 <JohnRochford> Andrew: Why 25 characters?
16:26:05 <AllanJ> s/alistair/alastair
16:26:20 <JohnRochford> Wayne: 25 is outside the deviation for word length in many languages.
16:27:42 <AllanJ> wayne will add the references to the wiki
16:28:28 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Example: Russians and Germans are in about the 18 range.
16:29:34 <JohnRochford> Andrew: Submit the 2 success criteria separately, I suggest.
16:30:10 <JohnRochford> Wayne: I offer to write an understanding page: short work up this week with references.
16:30:14 <AllanJ> Any objections?
16:30:23 <JohnRochford> No
16:30:38 <AllanJ> heard no objections
16:31:10 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Line_Length Ready for WCAG.
16:31:25 <AllanJ> Action: Jim to add https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Line_Length to WCAG GitHub (after wayne update descriptions and references)
16:31:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Add https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/line_length to wcag github (after wayne update descriptions and references) [on Jim Allan - due 2016-11-24].
16:31:37 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 3
16:31:37 <Zakim> agendum 3, Line Length, closed
16:31:38 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:31:38 <Zakim> 4. Reflow to Single Column [from AllanJ]
16:31:49 <AllanJ> zakim, open item 4
16:31:49 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Reflow to Single Column" taken up [from AllanJ]
16:32:05 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column
16:33:01 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: Any issues with this one?
16:35:23 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Will change if clause right now based upon suggestion from Andrew.
16:36:44 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:37:03 <JohnRochford> Thanks, Laura.
16:39:02 <JohnRochford> +1 to if-clause update
16:39:31 <erich> +1
16:40:19 <AllanJ> +1
16:40:23 <laura> +1
16:40:47 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: Any objections to sending this SC to WCAG?
16:41:44 <AllanJ> no objections heard
16:42:32 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column Ready for WCAG.
16:42:40 <AllanJ> Action: Jim to post Reflow https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column to WCAG github
16:42:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Post reflow https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/reflow_to_single_column to wcag github [on Jim Allan - due 2016-11-24].
16:42:50 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 4
16:42:50 <Zakim> agendum 4, Reflow to Single Column, closed
16:42:51 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:42:51 <Zakim> 5. Text Colors [from AllanJ]
16:43:07 <AllanJ> zakim, open item 5
16:43:07 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Text Colors" taken up [from AllanJ]
16:43:27 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_Colors
16:43:53 <AllanJ> alastair: I suggested turning the SC text around so it is about maintaining functionality when the user applies color changes, I think that would align with WCAG 2 a bit better.
16:44:51 <JohnRochford> AllanJ: Reviewing suggestions from Alistar.
16:46:03 <AllanJ> s/Alistar/Alastair
16:47:40 <AWK> Suggest change: Users must be able to view text with foreground and background colors chosen from the full range of color choices provided by the user agent.
16:51:04 <JohnRochford> Wayne: +1 to AWK's suggestion.
16:52:04 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Will replace SC text right now, withh
16:52:14 <JohnRochford> with AWK's suggestion.
16:54:52 <AllanJ> jim: Wayne to change wording, review the rest of the document for alignment with the new wording and bring it up on Dec 1
16:55:53 <JohnRochford> Gotta go, folks. Erich, will you please take over scribing?
16:56:31 <erich> Scribe:erich
16:57:27 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 6
16:57:27 <Zakim> agendum 6, Metadata on Hover, closed
16:57:29 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:57:29 <Zakim> 5. Text Colors [from AllanJ]
16:57:41 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 5
16:57:41 <Zakim> agendum 5, Text Colors, closed
16:57:42 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
16:57:53 <AllanJ> zakim, open item 6
16:57:54 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Metadata on Hover" taken up [from AllanJ]
16:58:14 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Metadata_On_Hover
16:58:49 <erich> Jim: What is the scoop?
16:59:08 <erich> Laura: Katie came up with best wording for the SC
16:59:16 <AllanJ> Content that is necessary for understanding which appears on hover, must be:
16:59:17 <AllanJ>     discernible,
16:59:19 <AllanJ>     not obscured by other content, and
16:59:20 <AllanJ>     available via any input method.
17:00:03 <erich> Jim: I have a thought on second bullet, is the mouse arrow considered content?
17:01:06 <erich> Laura: We could drop "by other content"
17:01:12 <AllanJ> Content that is necessary for understanding which appears on hover, must be:
17:01:13 <AllanJ>     discernible,
17:01:15 <AllanJ>     not obscured, and
17:01:16 <AllanJ>     available via any input method.
17:01:37 <erich> Marla: The mouse arrow size is user adjustable
17:01:51 <erich> Laura: It's constantly obscured in many cases though
17:02:00 <scottm> yes
17:02:01 <erich> Jim: Does this new wording work for people?
17:02:23 <erich> Marla: What about content that appears on hover and has an on-mouse out event?
17:03:13 <erich> Marla: Would that be an example of a failure of this, or not apply?
17:04:59 <scottm> Chasing the tooltip
17:05:15 <erich> Laura: It's another good example
17:06:12 <erich> Jim: So is this situation covered by the wording we have, or not?
17:06:18 <erich> Wayne: I think it is
17:06:44 <erich> Marla: My last comment, is it's a difficult test case
17:08:25 <erich> Jim: Laura, is there anything we can add to the testability, such as "display all metadata" or something like that?
17:09:03 <erich> Jim: You can get tooltips on some mobile devices, via long press vs. simple touch
17:09:17 <erich> Laura: "display the full metadata"? How about that?
17:10:13 <erich> Jim: I am assuming we are only talking about title
17:10:33 <erich> Andrew: why? the goal is for it to be technology independent
17:10:37 <erich> Laura: Good point
17:10:52 <erich> Jim: What do we think? Are we good, or is there any other review that needs to happen?
17:11:06 <erich> Marla: Is there a way to elaborate on what 'discernible' means?
17:12:11 <erich> Marla: Is there a way to build in to this that the content has to remain open for some time?
17:12:27 <erich> Laura: Maybe we need a definition? Would you like to work together on that Marla?
17:12:32 <erich> Marla: Yes
17:12:48 <erich> Wayne: If you look down the page, I have the other situation where you don't have mouse-out
17:12:55 <erich> Marla: Those are good examples
17:14:15 <erich> Jim: I was looking at WCAG and thought about 'perceivable', but there's no definition of 'perceivable' in there
17:14:42 <erich> Jim: What if we said 'fully visible'?
17:15:36 <erich> Jim: Does 'fully visible' work?
17:15:45 <erich> +1 to fully visible
17:15:55 <erich> Marla: +1
17:15:56 <Wayne> +1 to fully visible
17:17:51 <erich> Andrew: I think there may be something in the mobile group about device independence
17:18:09 <scottm> My phone just died
17:18:12 <erich> Andrew: we should look at those
17:18:21 <scottm> be back on in a minute
17:18:42 <Wayne> q+
17:18:55 <erich> ack w
17:20:24 <erich> Wayne: We're considering text to all kinds of presentations of text, so the testability needs to be re-thought, because with 6 people with low-vision there are 6 different ways of looking at this
17:20:48 <erich> Andrew: If too funamentally different, we may be talking about Silver
17:22:04 <AWK> +AWK
17:22:48 <erich> Jim: In the meantime I reviewed the mobile and not seeing any that pertain
17:23:13 <AllanJ> so we will defer till Dec 1.
17:23:25 <AllanJ> wayne: don't want to drop this.
17:23:56 <erich> Jim: That's the end of the agenda, if anyone has anything else to bring up
17:24:03 <erich> Wayne: Hyphenation
17:24:22 <erich> Wayne: Wondering whether this is a Silver one
17:25:15 <erich> Jim: The mechanisms seem like sort of a dodge
17:25:17 <AllanJ> topic: hyphenation
17:25:24 <AllanJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Hyphenation
17:26:42 <erich> Jim: Is this a make or break? Shawn suggests it should be AA or AAA
17:26:56 <scottm> and we're back
17:27:19 <erich> Wayne: Doesn't seem like one we can put forward at this time
17:27:37 <erich> Jim: Ok, we won't address at this time
17:27:54 <erich> Jim: Anything else?
17:28:01 <erich> HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone!
17:28:30 <laura> bye
17:28:49 <erich> rrsagent: make minutes
17:28:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-minutes.html erich
17:30:21 <AllanJ> regrets+ glenda
17:30:33 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
17:30:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-minutes.html AllanJ
17:30:53 <AllanJ> rrsagent, end meeting
17:30:53 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', AllanJ.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:01 <AllanJ> rrsagent, close meeting
17:31:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'close meeting', AllanJ.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:23 <laura> laura has left #lvtf
17:35:38 <AllanJ> rrsagent, help
17:36:25 <AllanJ> rrsagent, adminhelp
17:38:18 <AllanJ> zakim, please part
17:38:18 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been JohnRochford, AllanJ, erich, Laura, Marla, Wayne, AWK, Scott
17:38:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lvtf
17:38:37 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
17:38:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-minutes.html AllanJ
17:38:47 <AllanJ> rrsagent, please part
17:38:47 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-actions.rdf :
17:38:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim to update WCAG Github with new text for contrast Minimum (tag with LVTF and ready for review) [1]
17:38:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-irc#T16-16-13
17:38:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim to update WCAG Gitup for Graphic Contrast Minimum https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_(Minimum) [2]
17:38:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-irc#T16-19-24
17:38:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim to add https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Line_Length to WCAG GitHub (after wayne update descriptions and references) [3]
17:38:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-irc#T16-31-25
17:38:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim to post Reflow https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column to WCAG github [4]
17:38:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-lvtf-irc#T16-42-40