15:54:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:54:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-irc
15:54:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:54:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:54:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:54:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:54:55 <trackbot> Date: 10 November 2016
15:56:29 <Kim> Agenda+ Continuation of SC review - https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/tree/gh-pages/SCs , https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements Finish M14: Non-interference of AT (Chris) https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/d9ecc74431ee5bef084b51256468838b1d9a773a/SCs/m14.md
15:56:31 <Kim> Agenda+       M9: Pointer inputs with additional sensors (was: Advanced pointer input)
15:56:33 <Kim> Agenda+     Next steps and schedule
15:57:27 <laura> laura has joined #mobile-a11y
15:59:08 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
16:01:41 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
16:02:01 <DavidMacDonald> DavidMacDonald has joined #mobile-a11y
16:02:32 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
16:02:35 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
16:02:46 <jon_avila> kw: touch base on non-interference of AT and then switch over to last pointer sc -- Patrick can't make it but we can started on reviewing it and get some notes and finalize next week
16:02:50 <shadi> present+
16:03:14 <jon_avila> kw: any concerns or anything to add to SC that we have so far?
16:03:45 <jon_avila> dm: 12-15 in first working draft - not sure how WCAG WG will put be able to put something together by then
16:03:58 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
16:04:05 <Kim> Present+ Kim, Kathy, David, Chris, Jon
16:04:17 <jon_avila> kw: lot of work to be done in the intent and what SC are similar between 3 task forces.  They have the start of a plan and key team of people to look at things
16:04:49 <jon_avila> kw: tf will work with wg to understand intent and focus a WCAG WG meeting on all the keyboard and touch (hypothetical) -- perhaps too much for one meeting.
16:04:56 <Kim> Present+ Detlev, Alan, Jatin
16:05:59 <Jatin> Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y
16:06:07 <jon_avila> kw: questions about responsive layouts or breakpoints, etc.  We may want to add techniques into existing SC  Did anyone see anything to add based on emails on list?
16:06:40 <jon_avila> mj: questions on m1 pointer and term pointer input -- why not use direct manipulation
16:06:43 <marcjohlic> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/direct-manipulation/
16:06:48 <Jatin> Present +Jatin
16:07:11 <jon_avila> kw: might be worth adding a note and more of a definition
16:07:48 <jon_avila> detlev: how would direct manipulation be define?
16:08:24 <jon_avila> mj: not sure direct manipulation was defined in a way that would work for us.
16:09:00 <jon_avila> kw: pointer encompassing mouse and keyboard
16:09:21 <marcjohlic> Definition: Direct manipulation (DM) is an interaction style in which users act on displayed objects of interest using physical, incremental, reversible actions whose effects are immediately visible on the screen.
16:09:32 <DavidMacDonald> 10.3 Implicit Pointer Capture  Some input devices (such as touchscreens) implement a "direct manipulation" metaphor where a pointer is intended to act primarily on the UI element it became active upon (providing a physical illusion of direct contact, instead of indirect contact via a cursor that conceptually floats above the UI). Such devices are identified by the InputDeviceCapabilities.pointerMovementScrolls property and should have "[CUT]
16:09:50 <jon_avila> detlev: seems dated and doesn't reflect different mechanisms, questionable whether of value here
16:10:01 <DavidMacDonald> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/
16:10:05 <jon_avila> kw: others may have questions so we should make sure we clarify
16:10:43 <jon_avila> dm: presented our SC at Toronto a11y conference.  85% approval rating on ideas.
16:11:44 <jon_avila> dm: a few objections, specifically on requirement to access with one keystroke
16:11:56 <jon_avila> kw: agree we need to work on wording
16:12:16 <jon_avila> dm: wasn't the speech input one
16:13:17 <jon_avila> detlev: some problems forking m14 from github
16:13:51 <jon_avila> kw: need to work with Shadi to get it on right respository.  all should be under the same.  Patrick has moved most over including ones on the wiki
16:14:26 <jon_avila> dm: some people not comfortable with orientation -- would like to see more research
16:15:21 <jon_avila> kw: down to last couple of weeks.  There will be a comment period under WCAG WG
16:16:05 <jon_avila> dm: question was on m3 requiring support without multipoint gestures
16:16:31 <Jatin> SC Text M3-All functionality can be operated without requiring precise/timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures.
16:17:31 <jon_avila> dm: this is not when AT is running.
16:17:49 <jon_avila> detlev: non-AT type of criterion - aimed at disability where people can't use separate fingers
16:18:58 <jon_avila> dm: we already have a non-interference conformance requirement.  SC on this seems to be redundant
16:19:18 <jon_avila> dm: some argue that the conformance requirement is buried
16:19:59 <jon_avila> q?
16:20:09 <jon_avila> kw: conversation needs to happen
16:21:43 <Detlev> q+
16:23:00 <jon_avila> dm: example of signature area that isn't accessible and is not relied on for conformance of page.
16:23:10 <jon_avila> detlev: easy thing to test
16:23:36 <jon_avila> detlev: things in conformance requirements tend to get lost
16:24:40 <jon_avila> dm: should we have two tier strategy for including FPWD
16:25:11 <jon_avila> dm: could say here are thing that are well developed and these we are still discussing
16:25:31 <jon_avila> kw: preference is to submit everything -- that was the plan -- up to WG for how they will review
16:26:03 <jon_avila> kp: ready to go to m9
16:26:07 <jon_avila> zakim, agenda
16:26:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', jon_avila
16:26:33 <jon_avila> zakim, take up next
16:26:33 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Continuation of SC review - https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/tree/gh-pages/SCs ,
16:26:35 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements Finish M14: Non-interference of AT (Chris)
16:26:35 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/d9ecc74431ee5bef084b51256468838b1d9a773a/SCs/m14.md" taken up [from Kim]
16:26:46 <jon_avila> zakim, take up next
16:26:46 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jon_avila
16:26:49 <jon_avila> q?
16:26:58 <Detlev> q-
16:27:02 <jon_avila> q- detlev
16:27:06 <jon_avila> zakim, take up next
16:27:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, jon_avila
16:27:30 <jon_avila> zakim, close item 1
16:27:30 <Zakim> agendum 1, Continuation of SC review - https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/tree/gh-pages/SCs ,
16:27:33 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements Finish M14: Non-interference of AT (Chris)
16:27:33 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/d9ecc74431ee5bef084b51256468838b1d9a773a/SCs/m14.md, closed
16:27:33 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:27:33 <Zakim> 2. M9: Pointer inputs with additional sensors (was: Advanced pointer input) [from Kim]
16:28:18 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
16:28:32 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
16:28:56 <Kim> https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/gh-pages/SCs/m9.md
16:29:04 <jon_avila> detlev: first sentence is not clear to me
16:29:22 <jon_avila> dm: trying to say all operation can be operated with pointer and doesn't require just screen coordinates
16:29:31 <jon_avila> detlev: screen coordinate issue might make it hard to pass
16:29:41 <jon_avila> dm: talking about x y
16:30:46 <jon_avila> q?
16:31:54 <jon_avila> dm: m10 already mentions sensors
16:32:03 <jon_avila> ja: sensors seems to complicate m9
16:32:15 <jon_avila> dm: a lot of overlap with m6, m9, m10, and m3
16:32:19 <jon_avila> kw: pointer includes touch
16:32:44 <DavidMacDonald> David concerned lots of overlap M3, M6, M9, M10
16:33:12 <jon_avila> detlev: requires simply access with pointer without pressure
16:33:35 <jon_avila> detlev: makes it harder to understand with term screen coordinates
16:34:15 <jon_avila> kP; point is that tilt and other thins are extra -- shouldn't rely on them.
16:34:51 <jon_avila> detlev: hard to parse of people who aren't familiar with advanced pointer inputs.
16:35:42 <jon_avila> kw: use to refer to this as advanced pointer input but we changed the name
16:35:57 <jon_avila> kw: didn't want to say 3d touch -- tried to make it generic
16:36:27 <jon_avila> kw: do you see this as being covered under SC -- I see this as separate
16:37:06 <jon_avila> dm: haven't put all 4 SC together and look at overlap
16:37:55 <jon_avila> dm: change shortname to simple pointer
16:38:15 <Kim> All pointer functionality can be operated using screen coordinates, without requiring additional sensor information.
16:38:43 <jon_avila> kp: does what I put in make it clearer
16:39:15 <jon_avila> kw; wg will look to see what can be combined
16:39:31 <jon_avila> kw: are we saying the same thing in different SC
16:39:53 <jon_avila> kp: does that sentence make it clearer.
16:40:01 <jon_avila> dm: it is more clear.
16:40:35 <jon_avila> detlev: beyond screen coordinates seem like gestures next to device
16:41:47 <jon_avila> detlev: you don't operate the screen coordiantes
16:41:53 <Kim> 	All pointer functionality can be operated using screen coordinate information, without requiring additional sensor information.
16:42:58 <jon_avila> dm: think we can be combined m3 and m9
16:43:30 <DavidMacDonald> All functionality can be operated without requiring pointer information beyond screen coordinates.
16:43:30 <jon_avila> kp: see them as different
16:43:44 <DavidMacDonald> All functionality can be operated without requiring pointer information beyond screen coordinates.
16:44:45 <Detlev> +1 to Kathy
16:45:03 <Kim> +1
16:45:06 <jon_avila> dm: a note would help
16:45:16 <jon_avila> kw: david can you suggest a note to put in both of them
16:45:55 <jon_avila> kw: rewording is fine
16:46:46 <jon_avila> kw: twist would be related to stylus
16:46:57 <DavidMacDonald> Note: the techniques M3 and M9 are releated and may be combined. M3 requires that functionality work without timing or multi gesters, M9 arequires it works without tilt, specific presure, or angle.
16:47:57 <jon_avila> kp: any objections to rewording?
16:49:15 <jon_avila> detlev: good distinction to make between pointer sensors and other sensor information such as shake, accelerometer
16:50:44 <DavidMacDonald>  Note: the techniques M3 and M9 are related and may be combined in 2.1. M3 requires that functionality work without timing or multi gestures, M9 requires it works without tilt, specific pressure, or angle, etc..., M10 requires that it works without shaking or tilting the device etc...
16:51:21 <jon_avila> kp: m9 is talking about sensor information related to pointer
16:51:55 <jon_avila> kw: david will you do the pull request on that?
16:51:57 <jon_avila> dm: sure
16:54:17 <jon_avila> detlev: add acceleration
16:54:33 <jon_avila> kp: m10 is different
16:56:51 <jon_avila> kp: todos in a couple of areas
16:57:05 <jon_avila> kw: any other concerns on things to add as todos so we can finalize for next week
16:57:17 <jon_avila> detlev: we have 3d touch or pressure -- what about long press?  Is that ok?
16:57:57 <jon_avila> kp: would fall under timing
16:58:26 <jon_avila> kw: device settings can be changed
16:59:40 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:59:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shadi, marcjohlic, Kim, Kathy, David, Chris, Jon, Detlev, Alan, Jatin
17:03:18 <jon_avila> detlev: have some more time to get comments in
17:03:30 <jon_avila> trackbot, end meeting
17:03:30 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:03:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shadi, marcjohlic, Kim, Kathy, David, Chris, Jon, Detlev, Alan, Jatin
17:03:32 <chriscm> present+ chriscm
17:03:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
17:03:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:03:39 <RRSAgent> I see no action items