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06:58:43 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Victor_Charpenay
07:00:06 <kaz> present+ Uday_Davuluru
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07:04:59 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner, Darko_Anicic, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Takuki_Kamiya
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07:08:38 <kaz> scribenick: taki
07:08:40 <taki> scribe: TK
07:08:46 <taki> scribeNick: taki
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07:09:42 <sebastian> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
07:10:04 <taki> Sebastian: Logistics
07:10:21 <taki> Sebastian: Issue discussion
07:10:35 <taki> Sebastian: encoding naming, end point information...
07:11:01 <taki> Sebastian: then short overview of all issues...
07:11:22 <yingying_> present+ Yingying_Chen
07:11:32 <kaz> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-ig/2016Oct/0013.html
07:12:03 <kaz> present+ Antoine_Zimmermann
07:12:09 <taki> Sebastian: Issues can be registered in GitHub
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07:13:13 <kaz> i/Logistics/topic: Agenda/
07:13:21 <taki> Sebastian: If there is an issue that can be closed, we close it. If it has impact on current practice, then we open a new issue with pointer to the original issue.
07:14:11 <kaz> present+ Achille_Zappa
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07:14:36 <DarkoAnicic> present+ DarkoAnicic
07:15:06 <taki> Sebastian: JSON-LD 1.1. One of the volunteers is not available today. He will join the meeting next week.
07:15:19 <maxime> I'm standing next to Antoine Zimmermann, so I listen to Sebastian right now
07:15:52 <taki> TOPIC: property and actions
07:15:56 <kaz> present+ Maxime_Lefrancois
07:16:12 <taki> Sebastian: there are view points...
07:16:29 <taki> Sebastian: I added OneM2M viewpoint.
07:16:58 <taki> Sebastian: Property has two kind
07:17:30 <taki> Sebastian: One is property. static values or no-functional information. e.g. serial number.
07:18:06 <taki> Sebastian: the other is datapoint. this is dynamic. e.g. temperature.
07:18:27 <taki> Sebastian: also for functional information such as target temperature.
07:19:14 <taki> Sebastian: All those discussion can be seen in issue 258.
07:19:53 <taki> Sebastian: actions are for stateful condition, such as upvolume and downvolume.
07:19:54 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
07:19:55 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:19:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:20:22 <taki> Sebastian: TD will not have hard rule, this is my impression now.
07:20:59 <kaz> q?
07:21:00 <taki> Sebastian: should be flexible and powerful, and open to solution designer and developer.
07:21:05 <kaz> q+
07:21:22 <taki> Sebastian: should be useful for most use cases.
07:21:41 <DarkoAnicic> q+
07:21:43 <victor> q+
07:22:04 <taki> Kaz: OneM2M classification uses two kind for property.
07:22:31 <taki> Kaz: I personally think this definition is not popular.
07:22:47 <taki> Kaz: Property also can have dynamic value, right?
07:23:57 <taki> Sebastian: Action vs datapoint. Switch on/off - use datapoint.
07:24:34 <taki> Sebastian: I picked this information from GitHub discussion Yongjing provided.
07:24:59 <taki> Kaz: We can refer to this definition. We should be careful in deciding what we do.
07:25:25 <taki> Kaz: Static, variable, combination values, action, state. We should be careful about requirement.
07:25:33 <taki> Sebastian: We should be independent.
07:26:16 <taki> Sebastian: Already there are existing technologies. Kajimoto san also provided use cases.
07:26:28 <taki> Sebastian: we need to adapt to those.
07:26:35 <taki> Sebastian: We should not stick to one.
07:26:49 <taki> Sebastian: We should have flexibility so we can adapt to those
07:27:08 <taki> Sebastian: How building blocks are used are up to applications.
07:27:22 <kaz> q?
07:27:24 <kaz> ack k
07:27:25 <kaz> ack d
07:27:26 <sebastian> q?
07:28:04 <taki> Darko: I am in favor of having flexibility. But we can have rules.
07:28:40 <taki> Darko: I suggest to define some rules as to when to use property, for example.
07:29:04 <taki> Darko: In OneM2M, they have four.
07:29:19 <taki> Sebastian: Property, datapoint, action and event
07:30:17 <taki> Darko: Why do we not want to define similar rules?
07:30:31 <taki> Darko: People are confused.
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07:30:53 <taki> Darko: Stateful are actions, etc.
07:31:19 <sebastian> q?
07:31:28 <kaz> ack v
07:31:28 <taki> Victor: I read OneM2M.
07:31:33 <sebastian> ack v
07:31:50 <taki> Victor: I could not get good understanding yet.
07:32:01 <sebastian> q?
07:32:57 <taki> Darko: Stateful and stateless. Stateless op is done instantaneously. One state to another. Stateful operation is not instantaneous. They require memorizing internal or internal stage.
07:33:13 <dape> q+
07:33:24 <taki> Darko: Before action is completed, there are states.
07:33:57 <dape> q-
07:34:05 <taki> Daniel: To increase volume, you have to know the original state.
07:34:22 <taki> Victor: Prior knowledge.
07:35:07 <taki> Victor: Whether to use property or action is also protocol binding.
07:35:43 <taki> Victor: You do the operation twice, then volume up happens twice. Switch is different.
07:36:21 <taki> Victor: If we define something not idempotent as property, it is a problem.
07:36:48 <taki> Sebastian: We suggest we not have hard rule.
07:37:11 <taki> Sebastian: because we should not close doors to some other usages from other IoT activities.
07:38:08 <taki> Victor: If two servients have different interpretation, it causes problem in interoperability.
07:38:30 <taki> Sebastian: Server always announce what is property.
07:38:47 <taki> Sebastian: Developer has choice.
07:38:56 <taki> Sebastian: after it is developed, it is clear.
07:40:13 <taki> Darko: This is "Darko's property". This is not the point of standard.
07:40:37 <taki> Darko: We should not be so flexible.
07:40:39 <achille-z> +1  with Darko
07:40:42 <taki> Darko
07:41:01 <taki> Darko: We should not try to define in hard way, but we should define some.
07:41:19 <DarkoAnicic> q?
07:41:33 <taki> Victor: Kajimoto-san and Dom also have point of view.
07:41:55 <taki> Sebastian: Property and action discussion is difficult.
07:42:30 <taki> Sebastian: victor and darko, please respond to the current outcome.
07:43:02 <taki> Sebastian: Today, I tried to reflect current viewpoints.
07:43:44 <taki> TOPIC: Simplified Structure
07:44:28 <taki> Sebastian: we introduce @type.
07:44:38 <taki> Sebastian: with value property, action, etc.
07:45:16 <taki> Sebastian: Property vs action is a big issue that have impact on scripting and protocol bindings.
07:45:37 <taki> TOPIC: Naming of encoding
07:46:01 <taki> Sebastian: We are using in the future MIME-Type.
07:46:43 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:46:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:46:49 <taki> Sebastian: We should also think about "encoding" terminology.
07:47:08 <taki> Sebastian: "format", "mediatype", etc
07:47:55 <kaz> Meeting: WoT - TD Restructuring
07:47:59 <kaz> Chair: Sebastian
07:48:00 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:48:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:49:43 <taki> Daniel: Mediatype is actually used. contenttype is just a field in HTTP.
07:49:58 <taki> Victor: I propose to use mediatype.
07:50:03 <taki> Daniel: me too
07:50:24 <taki> Sebastian: If there is no complaint, I would like to select that.
07:51:31 <taki> Sebastian: I ask them on GitHub.
07:51:44 <taki> Victor: we should close before next telecon?
07:51:58 <maxime> I just closed it then
07:52:03 <maxime> comment: Agreed for `mediaType`, which is a term that is independent from interaction protocols.
07:52:11 <taki> Sebastian: I will also announce on mailing list.
07:52:25 <taki> TOPIC: end-point information
07:52:52 <taki> Sebastian: TD is static about endpoint information, encoding, etc.
07:53:09 <kaz> i|We are using|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/253 Issue-253|
07:53:12 <taki> Sebastian: How can we assign different protocols, etc?
07:54:32 <kaz> -> http://w3c.github.io/wot/current-practices/wot-practices.html#quick-start-td-samples TD examples
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07:54:39 <taki> Sebastian: Events, e.g. only with coap with EXI. somone want to provide JPG image as property.
07:54:45 <kaz> q+
07:54:59 <taki> Sebastian: We need to provide local information.
07:55:22 <taki> Sebastian: locally defined communication metadata.
07:55:45 <taki> Sebastian: We should also keep global definition.
07:55:53 <taki> Sebastian: there was such a opinion.
07:56:01 <kaz> s/such a/such an/
07:56:02 <katsu> present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
07:56:15 <kaz> q?
07:56:22 <victor> q+
07:56:53 <taki> Kaz: Comment. I am not objecting to the proposal. We need to use values defined by IANA regustry, correct?
07:57:12 <AZ> s/regustry/registry
07:57:24 <taki> Daniel: correct. "unknown" is pl
07:57:29 <taki> s/pl/ok/
07:57:57 <taki> Victor: With "+", we can do more.
07:58:12 <taki> Victor: specific, your own schema/type.
07:58:58 <victor> https://github.com/vcharpenay/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-vs-hydra
07:59:01 <sebastian> qß
07:59:02 <sebastian> q?
07:59:11 <kaz> ack k
07:59:32 <taki> Victor: I share a proposal. We need to align two proposal.
07:59:47 <taki> Victor: Why not keep "href" ?
08:00:12 <taki> Victor: Each resource that way becomes a link.
08:01:26 <kaz> i|"unknow"|-> https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml IANA Media Types Registry
08:02:58 <victor> properties : { hrefs : [ { @id: "http://example.org", "mediaType": "application/json" } ] }
08:03:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:03:51 <taki> Sebastian: TD should be open to OCF's handling of properties.
08:04:12 <taki> Sebastian: we can also handle Hydra.
08:04:50 <taki> Victor: We could use endpoint. But we should use "id".
08:05:29 <taki> Sebastian: we have received from google and mozilla about use of semantics.
08:05:57 <taki> Victor
08:06:28 <taki> Victor: Hydra is not relevant in the example I gave.
08:06:42 <taki> Victor: my proposal is to use different key.
08:06:50 <taki> Sebastian: I understand now.
08:07:29 <taki> Sebastian: Please make an issue, so we can discuss.
08:08:20 <taki> Victor: ok
08:09:28 <taki> Sebastian: I would like to keep this issue open.
08:09:38 <taki> TOPIC: Other issues
08:09:51 <taki> Sebastian: templates for properties, actions and events
08:11:28 <taki> Darko: with templates, you defined property, I also offer my property. In repository, there is a template. The two property can have same name. It will enhance interoperability.
08:11:36 <taki> Darko: It does not cost.
08:12:01 <taki> Darko: Michael Koster pointed to his proposal.
08:13:01 <taki> Darko: I would like to propose to use template in our TD repositoty.
08:13:08 <kaz> i|templates for|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/254 Issue-254|
08:13:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:13:49 <taki> Sebastian: We need this kind of approach. It relates to lifecycle.
08:14:28 <taki> Darko: Kajimoto-san's suggestion is based on industry experience.
08:14:50 <taki> Darko: Many things are well-standardized.
08:15:11 <taki> Darko: My sensor is using existing characteristics.
08:15:21 <taki> Darko: This is industry practice.
08:15:37 <taki> Sebastian: should we converge this into lifecycle discussion?
08:16:02 <taki> Darko: It can be joined into lifecycle.
08:16:34 <taki> TOPIC: Resource parameters
08:16:45 <taki> Sebastian: Currently there is no definitions.
08:16:54 <taki> Sebastian: how parameters are used in resources.
08:17:11 <kaz> i|Currently|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/264 Issue-264|
08:17:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:17:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:17:35 <taki> Sebastian: parameters in URL. If you have this kind of REST approach, we provide no way to allow for that.
08:17:58 <victor> q+
08:18:09 <taki> Sebastian explaining parameter definition ...
08:18:46 <sebastian> ack v
08:19:01 <taki> Victor: URL template with parameters.
08:19:25 <taki> Victor: That's an approach in Hydra.
08:19:49 <taki> Victor: I will comment in GitHub issue.
08:20:22 <taki> TOPIC: compond property
08:20:37 <taki> Sebastian: To introduce functionality of grouping.
08:20:49 <taki> Sebastian: Please follow the issue.
08:21:18 <taki> TOPIC: Separating discussion of requirements from serialization formats
08:21:37 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/257 Issue-257
08:21:47 <kaz> s/compond/compound/
08:22:08 <taki> Sebastian: Properties vs. action still is an open issue.
08:22:25 <kaz> i|To introduce|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/256 Issue-256|
08:22:30 <taki> Sebastian: Yongjing or Kajimoto-san will join next week.
08:22:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:22:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:23:20 <taki> Sebastian: Talk to you later in regular meeting
08:23:36 <AZ> bye
08:23:51 <kaz> [ adjourned ]
08:23:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:23:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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