IRC log of wot-td on 2016-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-irc
06:56:31 [victor]
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06:58:43 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Victor_Charpenay
07:00:06 [kaz]
present+ Uday_Davuluru
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07:04:59 [kaz]
present+ Daniel_Peintner, Darko_Anicic, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Takuki_Kamiya
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07:08:38 [kaz]
scribenick: taki
07:08:40 [taki]
scribe: TK
07:08:46 [taki]
scribeNick: taki
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07:09:42 [sebastian]
present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
07:10:04 [taki]
Sebastian: Logistics
07:10:21 [taki]
Sebastian: Issue discussion
07:10:35 [taki]
Sebastian: encoding naming, end point information...
07:11:01 [taki]
Sebastian: then short overview of all issues...
07:11:22 [yingying_]
present+ Yingying_Chen
07:11:32 [kaz]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-ig/2016Oct/0013.html
07:12:03 [kaz]
present+ Antoine_Zimmermann
07:12:09 [taki]
Sebastian: Issues can be registered in GitHub
07:12:30 [maxime]
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07:13:13 [kaz]
i/Logistics/topic: Agenda/
07:13:21 [taki]
Sebastian: If there is an issue that can be closed, we close it. If it has impact on current practice, then we open a new issue with pointer to the original issue.
07:14:11 [kaz]
present+ Achille_Zappa
07:14:23 [DarkoAnicic]
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07:14:36 [DarkoAnicic]
present+ DarkoAnicic
07:15:06 [taki]
Sebastian: JSON-LD 1.1. One of the volunteers is not available today. He will join the meeting next week.
07:15:19 [maxime]
I'm standing next to Antoine Zimmermann, so I listen to Sebastian right now
07:15:52 [taki]
TOPIC: property and actions
07:15:56 [kaz]
present+ Maxime_Lefrancois
07:16:12 [taki]
Sebastian: there are view points...
07:16:29 [taki]
Sebastian: I added OneM2M viewpoint.
07:16:58 [taki]
Sebastian: Property has two kind
07:17:30 [taki]
Sebastian: One is property. static values or no-functional information. e.g. serial number.
07:18:06 [taki]
Sebastian: the other is datapoint. this is dynamic. e.g. temperature.
07:18:27 [taki]
Sebastian: also for functional information such as target temperature.
07:19:14 [taki]
Sebastian: All those discussion can be seen in issue 258.
07:19:53 [taki]
Sebastian: actions are for stateful condition, such as upvolume and downvolume.
07:19:54 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
07:19:55 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:19:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:20:22 [taki]
Sebastian: TD will not have hard rule, this is my impression now.
07:20:59 [kaz]
q?
07:21:00 [taki]
Sebastian: should be flexible and powerful, and open to solution designer and developer.
07:21:05 [kaz]
q+
07:21:22 [taki]
Sebastian: should be useful for most use cases.
07:21:41 [DarkoAnicic]
q+
07:21:43 [victor]
q+
07:22:04 [taki]
Kaz: OneM2M classification uses two kind for property.
07:22:31 [taki]
Kaz: I personally think this definition is not popular.
07:22:47 [taki]
Kaz: Property also can have dynamic value, right?
07:23:57 [taki]
Sebastian: Action vs datapoint. Switch on/off - use datapoint.
07:24:34 [taki]
Sebastian: I picked this information from GitHub discussion Yongjing provided.
07:24:59 [taki]
Kaz: We can refer to this definition. We should be careful in deciding what we do.
07:25:25 [taki]
Kaz: Static, variable, combination values, action, state. We should be careful about requirement.
07:25:33 [taki]
Sebastian: We should be independent.
07:26:16 [taki]
Sebastian: Already there are existing technologies. Kajimoto san also provided use cases.
07:26:28 [taki]
Sebastian: we need to adapt to those.
07:26:35 [taki]
Sebastian: We should not stick to one.
07:26:49 [taki]
Sebastian: We should have flexibility so we can adapt to those
07:27:08 [taki]
Sebastian: How building blocks are used are up to applications.
07:27:22 [kaz]
q?
07:27:24 [kaz]
ack k
07:27:25 [kaz]
ack d
07:27:26 [sebastian]
q?
07:28:04 [taki]
Darko: I am in favor of having flexibility. But we can have rules.
07:28:40 [taki]
Darko: I suggest to define some rules as to when to use property, for example.
07:29:04 [taki]
Darko: In OneM2M, they have four.
07:29:19 [taki]
Sebastian: Property, datapoint, action and event
07:30:17 [taki]
Darko: Why do we not want to define similar rules?
07:30:31 [taki]
Darko: People are confused.
07:30:49 [achille-z]
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07:30:53 [taki]
Darko: Stateful are actions, etc.
07:31:19 [sebastian]
q?
07:31:28 [kaz]
ack v
07:31:28 [taki]
Victor: I read OneM2M.
07:31:33 [sebastian]
ack v
07:31:50 [taki]
Victor: I could not get good understanding yet.
07:32:01 [sebastian]
q?
07:32:57 [taki]
Darko: Stateful and stateless. Stateless op is done instantaneously. One state to another. Stateful operation is not instantaneous. They require memorizing internal or internal stage.
07:33:13 [dape]
q+
07:33:24 [taki]
Darko: Before action is completed, there are states.
07:33:57 [dape]
q-
07:34:05 [taki]
Daniel: To increase volume, you have to know the original state.
07:34:22 [taki]
Victor: Prior knowledge.
07:35:07 [taki]
Victor: Whether to use property or action is also protocol binding.
07:35:43 [taki]
Victor: You do the operation twice, then volume up happens twice. Switch is different.
07:36:21 [taki]
Victor: If we define something not idempotent as property, it is a problem.
07:36:48 [taki]
Sebastian: We suggest we not have hard rule.
07:37:11 [taki]
Sebastian: because we should not close doors to some other usages from other IoT activities.
07:38:08 [taki]
Victor: If two servients have different interpretation, it causes problem in interoperability.
07:38:30 [taki]
Sebastian: Server always announce what is property.
07:38:47 [taki]
Sebastian: Developer has choice.
07:38:56 [taki]
Sebastian: after it is developed, it is clear.
07:40:13 [taki]
Darko: This is "Darko's property". This is not the point of standard.
07:40:37 [taki]
Darko: We should not be so flexible.
07:40:39 [achille-z]
+1 with Darko
07:40:42 [taki]
Darko
07:41:01 [taki]
Darko: We should not try to define in hard way, but we should define some.
07:41:19 [DarkoAnicic]
q?
07:41:33 [taki]
Victor: Kajimoto-san and Dom also have point of view.
07:41:55 [taki]
Sebastian: Property and action discussion is difficult.
07:42:30 [taki]
Sebastian: victor and darko, please respond to the current outcome.
07:43:02 [taki]
Sebastian: Today, I tried to reflect current viewpoints.
07:43:44 [taki]
TOPIC: Simplified Structure
07:44:28 [taki]
Sebastian: we introduce @type.
07:44:38 [taki]
Sebastian: with value property, action, etc.
07:45:16 [taki]
Sebastian: Property vs action is a big issue that have impact on scripting and protocol bindings.
07:45:37 [taki]
TOPIC: Naming of encoding
07:46:01 [taki]
Sebastian: We are using in the future MIME-Type.
07:46:43 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:46:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:46:49 [taki]
Sebastian: We should also think about "encoding" terminology.
07:47:08 [taki]
Sebastian: "format", "mediatype", etc
07:47:55 [kaz]
Meeting: WoT - TD Restructuring
07:47:59 [kaz]
Chair: Sebastian
07:48:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:48:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:49:43 [taki]
Daniel: Mediatype is actually used. contenttype is just a field in HTTP.
07:49:58 [taki]
Victor: I propose to use mediatype.
07:50:03 [taki]
Daniel: me too
07:50:24 [taki]
Sebastian: If there is no complaint, I would like to select that.
07:51:31 [taki]
Sebastian: I ask them on GitHub.
07:51:44 [taki]
Victor: we should close before next telecon?
07:51:58 [maxime]
I just closed it then
07:52:03 [maxime]
comment: Agreed for `mediaType`, which is a term that is independent from interaction protocols.
07:52:11 [taki]
Sebastian: I will also announce on mailing list.
07:52:25 [taki]
TOPIC: end-point information
07:52:52 [taki]
Sebastian: TD is static about endpoint information, encoding, etc.
07:53:09 [kaz]
i|We are using|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/253 Issue-253|
07:53:12 [taki]
Sebastian: How can we assign different protocols, etc?
07:54:32 [kaz]
-> http://w3c.github.io/wot/current-practices/wot-practices.html#quick-start-td-samples TD examples
07:54:33 [katsu]
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07:54:39 [taki]
Sebastian: Events, e.g. only with coap with EXI. somone want to provide JPG image as property.
07:54:45 [kaz]
q+
07:54:59 [taki]
Sebastian: We need to provide local information.
07:55:22 [taki]
Sebastian: locally defined communication metadata.
07:55:45 [taki]
Sebastian: We should also keep global definition.
07:55:53 [taki]
Sebastian: there was such a opinion.
07:56:01 [kaz]
s/such a/such an/
07:56:02 [katsu]
present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
07:56:15 [kaz]
q?
07:56:22 [victor]
q+
07:56:53 [taki]
Kaz: Comment. I am not objecting to the proposal. We need to use values defined by IANA regustry, correct?
07:57:12 [AZ]
s/regustry/registry
07:57:24 [taki]
Daniel: correct. "unknown" is pl
07:57:29 [taki]
s/pl/ok/
07:57:57 [taki]
Victor: With "+", we can do more.
07:58:12 [taki]
Victor: specific, your own schema/type.
07:58:58 [victor]
https://github.com/vcharpenay/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-vs-hydra
07:59:01 [sebastian]
07:59:02 [sebastian]
q?
07:59:11 [kaz]
ack k
07:59:32 [taki]
Victor: I share a proposal. We need to align two proposal.
07:59:47 [taki]
Victor: Why not keep "href" ?
08:00:12 [taki]
Victor: Each resource that way becomes a link.
08:01:26 [kaz]
i|"unknow"|-> https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml IANA Media Types Registry
08:02:58 [victor]
properties : { hrefs : [ { @id: "http://example.org", "mediaType": "application/json" } ] }
08:03:30 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:03:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:03:51 [taki]
Sebastian: TD should be open to OCF's handling of properties.
08:04:12 [taki]
Sebastian: we can also handle Hydra.
08:04:50 [taki]
Victor: We could use endpoint. But we should use "id".
08:05:29 [taki]
Sebastian: we have received from google and mozilla about use of semantics.
08:05:57 [taki]
Victor
08:06:28 [taki]
Victor: Hydra is not relevant in the example I gave.
08:06:42 [taki]
Victor: my proposal is to use different key.
08:06:50 [taki]
Sebastian: I understand now.
08:07:29 [taki]
Sebastian: Please make an issue, so we can discuss.
08:08:20 [taki]
Victor: ok
08:09:28 [taki]
Sebastian: I would like to keep this issue open.
08:09:38 [taki]
TOPIC: Other issues
08:09:51 [taki]
Sebastian: templates for properties, actions and events
08:11:28 [taki]
Darko: with templates, you defined property, I also offer my property. In repository, there is a template. The two property can have same name. It will enhance interoperability.
08:11:36 [taki]
Darko: It does not cost.
08:12:01 [taki]
Darko: Michael Koster pointed to his proposal.
08:13:01 [taki]
Darko: I would like to propose to use template in our TD repositoty.
08:13:08 [kaz]
i|templates for|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/254 Issue-254|
08:13:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:13:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:13:49 [taki]
Sebastian: We need this kind of approach. It relates to lifecycle.
08:14:28 [taki]
Darko: Kajimoto-san's suggestion is based on industry experience.
08:14:50 [taki]
Darko: Many things are well-standardized.
08:15:11 [taki]
Darko: My sensor is using existing characteristics.
08:15:21 [taki]
Darko: This is industry practice.
08:15:37 [taki]
Sebastian: should we converge this into lifecycle discussion?
08:16:02 [taki]
Darko: It can be joined into lifecycle.
08:16:34 [taki]
TOPIC: Resource parameters
08:16:45 [taki]
Sebastian: Currently there is no definitions.
08:16:54 [taki]
Sebastian: how parameters are used in resources.
08:17:11 [kaz]
i|Currently|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/264 Issue-264|
08:17:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:17:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:17:35 [taki]
Sebastian: parameters in URL. If you have this kind of REST approach, we provide no way to allow for that.
08:17:58 [victor]
q+
08:18:09 [taki]
Sebastian explaining parameter definition ...
08:18:46 [sebastian]
ack v
08:19:01 [taki]
Victor: URL template with parameters.
08:19:25 [taki]
Victor: That's an approach in Hydra.
08:19:49 [taki]
Victor: I will comment in GitHub issue.
08:20:22 [taki]
TOPIC: compond property
08:20:37 [taki]
Sebastian: To introduce functionality of grouping.
08:20:49 [taki]
Sebastian: Please follow the issue.
08:21:18 [taki]
TOPIC: Separating discussion of requirements from serialization formats
08:21:37 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/257 Issue-257
08:21:47 [kaz]
s/compond/compound/
08:22:08 [taki]
Sebastian: Properties vs. action still is an open issue.
08:22:25 [kaz]
i|To introduce|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/256 Issue-256|
08:22:30 [taki]
Sebastian: Yongjing or Kajimoto-san will join next week.
08:22:30 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:22:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:23:20 [taki]
Sebastian: Talk to you later in regular meeting
08:23:36 [AZ]
bye
08:23:51 [kaz]
[ adjourned ]
08:23:56 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:23:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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