06:53:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
06:53:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-irc
07:01:03 <AZ> AZ has joined #wot-td
07:01:21 <AZ> present+ AZ
07:03:16 <AZ> AZ = Antoine Zimmermann
07:03:48 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Koster, Antoine_Zimmermann, Maxime_Lefrancois, Daniel_Peintner, Uday_Davuluru, Victor_Charpenay
07:05:41 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
07:05:50 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
07:09:42 <maxime> maxime has joined #wot-td
07:10:24 <kaz> present+ Kazuo_Kajimoto
07:10:31 <kaz> scribe: Daniel
07:10:33 <kaz> scribenick: dape
07:10:46 <mjkoster> mjkoster has joined #wot-td
07:10:47 <dape> SK: Let's start with some logistics
07:10:56 <maxime> present+ maxime
07:10:59 <dape> ... weekly call until first of November
07:11:18 <dape> ... re-structering used in next PlugFest
07:11:38 <dape> ... use Github for discussions
07:12:07 <kaz> present+ Matthias_Kovatsch
07:12:13 <kajimoto> kajimoto has joined #wot-td
07:12:13 <dape> ... plan for today: start with property and actions
07:12:27 <kaz> present+ Yongjing_Zhang
07:12:30 <dape> ... also finalize mediatype proposal
07:12:55 <dape> ... handle feedback we got about  JSON-LD
07:13:17 <dape> TOPIC: Properties vs. Actions
07:13:52 <dape> SK: lets wait for Kaijimoto-san..
07:13:57 <dape> .... switch topic
07:14:08 <dape> TOPIC: Specify encodings
07:14:20 <dape> ... github issue #251
07:14:34 <dape> ... propose to use mimetypes instead of XML, JSON, ...
07:16:06 <dape> ... seems to be agreement about this topic
07:16:36 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/251 GitHub Issue 251
07:16:37 <dape> SK: OK for everybody to integrate this comment?
07:16:51 <dape> All: silence (--> agreement)
07:16:52 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
07:16:57 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:16:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:17:20 <AZ> encoding is almost universally used in computer sciecnce to talk about "character encoding"
07:17:22 <dape> SK: related issues whether to use term "encodings"
07:17:40 <dape> ... Maxime proposed to use format, representationType et cetera
07:18:19 <AZ> content type sounds good
07:18:26 <dape> MK: mediaType and contentType is commonly used
07:18:41 <maxime> +1 for contentType
07:18:42 <AZ> media type is fine for me too
07:18:51 <dape> VC: Shall we use mediaType then?
07:19:28 <kaz> i|sounds good|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/253 GitHub Issue 253|
07:19:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:19:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:19:44 <dape> MK: guess mediaType makes sense
07:19:52 <kaz> Meeting: WoT - TD Restructuring
07:20:01 <kaz> Chair: Sebastian
07:20:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:20:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:20:23 <dape> ... should check IANA for a registered term
07:20:27 <AZ> +1 mediaType
07:20:40 <kaz> i/Let's start with/topic: Logistics/
07:20:42 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:20:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:21:09 <dape> SK: Let's think about and comment... will make decision next week
07:21:24 <dape> ... ask Daniel to close issue
07:21:26 <dape> DP: OK
07:22:57 <dape> TOPIC: JSON-LD 1.1
07:23:18 <dape> SK: related to issue #259
07:23:34 <dape> Dave's proposal not aligned with JSON-LD specification
07:23:36 <kaz> s/github issue #251/SK: github issue #251/
07:24:00 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/259 GitHub Issue 259
07:24:07 <dape> ... Gregg Kellogg mentioned new work is done in JSON-LD context
07:24:19 <dape> ... happy to integrate feedback
07:25:18 <dape> ... think we identified missing parts and should report it back to the JSON-LD group
07:25:36 <kajimoto> I faced audio trouble...
07:25:44 <dape> ... I am very thankful that we can provide feedback
07:26:35 <dape> DP: any timeline for JSON-LD 1.1?
07:26:45 <dape> VC: No timeframe
07:27:10 <dape> SK: I think they are currently collecting issues and proposals
07:27:24 <AZ> q+
07:27:29 <dape> ... will try to invite Gregg to one of our next meetings
07:27:45 <kajimoto> i can speak now, i hope...
07:27:49 <dape> ... should check back with Gregg
07:27:52 <dape> q?
07:28:30 <dape> AZ: JSON-LD 1.1 is not on standard track
07:28:33 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
07:28:42 <dape> ... developed in community group
07:29:09 <dape> ... unlikely to become standard
07:29:22 <Yongjing> Yongjing has joined #wot-td
07:29:59 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/community/json-ld/ JSON-LD CG
07:30:05 <katsu> katsu has joined #wot-td
07:30:15 <dape> SK: Doesn't sufficient support mean that creating a standard would be feasible
07:30:29 <dape> AZ: Yes, .. but there is no timeframe yet
07:31:10 <dape> VC: Do see AZs concern... using new features in TD might be problematic
07:31:26 <kaz> s/AZs/AZ's/
07:31:47 <dape> AZ: Within interest group looking at it is fine.. in WG we should focus on standards
07:32:02 <dape> SK: Let's check with Gregg
07:32:19 <dape> ... uncertainty is not good
07:33:14 <dape> TOPIC: Properties vs. Actions
07:33:38 <dape> SK: Difficult topic.... ongoing discussion on Github  #247
07:34:33 <dape> ... tried to summarize viewpoints in my slide (TODO LINK)
07:35:09 <dape> ...current WoT assumption... property has static/dynamic states
07:35:33 <dape> ... e.g., read temperature, read/set RGB
07:35:55 <dape> ... Actions is more for function which has start and end
07:36:00 <dape> ... e.g. fadeIn
07:36:14 <dape> ... Doms proposal only readabke states
07:36:26 <dape> ... functions to enable/disable etc
07:36:48 <dape> ... Kajimoto-San: internal software status is property
07:36:59 <dape> ... hardware is action
07:37:11 <dape> ... another proposal is based on API Level
07:37:17 <dape> ... low level is property
07:37:18 <Yongjing> the latest comment i made on this issue is to recommend people to look at the current practice of information modeling in oneM2M/SDT, where clear rules are made for reference. we don't need to suffer again the similar debate  that people already experienced somewhere else.
07:37:26 <dape> ... complex API is actions
07:38:03 <dape> ... another proposal is to say we don't need a separate property and action
07:38:11 <kaz> i|tried to summarize|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/247 GitHub Issue 247|
07:38:37 <dape> SK: Unsure about what "we" should use/pick?
07:39:03 <dape> Kajimoto: another proposal was about object-oriented analogy
07:39:24 <dape> ... read/change was property
07:39:28 <kaz> s/Doms/Dom's/
07:39:36 <dape> ... function was action
07:39:37 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:39:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:40:15 <dape> ... my proposal seems similar to OO-analogy
07:40:27 <kaz> s/readabke/readable/
07:40:31 <Yongjing> q
07:40:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:40:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:40:31 <dape> q?
07:40:45 <dape> ack az
07:40:56 <victor> victor has joined #wot-td
07:41:09 <dape> SK: sometimes we do have something in between
07:41:11 <Yongjing> q me in plz
07:41:15 <dape> ... not sure in that case
07:41:33 <kaz> present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
07:41:34 <kaz> q?
07:42:14 <kaz> s/... Kajimoto/Kajimoto/
07:42:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:42:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:42:33 <dape> Yongjing: according to my oneM2M experience.. different ways out there.. suggest to look at them
07:43:26 <dape> ...  hard for developers to impose strict rules
07:43:41 <uday> uday has joined #wot-td
07:44:28 <dape> ... our way should be flexible and powerful enough to handle different protocols
07:44:58 <dape> SK: do you have the same issue in oneM2M (action vs property)
07:45:05 <dape> Yongjing: yes
07:45:12 <dape> in oneM2M there are clear rules
07:45:24 <dape> ... we could adapt them
07:45:32 <kaz> s/in oneM2M/... in oneM2M/
07:45:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:45:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:46:20 <dape> ... oneM2M has 2 terms for properties: property (static e.g, device id) vs data-points (dynamic e.g, measurements)
07:46:38 <dape> ... the latter is functional
07:47:11 <mjkoster> q+
07:47:27 <dape> ... difference between data-points and actions: property is stateless
07:47:54 <dape> ... action is stateful... e.g, increase temperature by X
07:48:20 <dape> ... this is just a rule.. people might choose different rule
07:49:04 <dape> MK: had same discussion in OCF
07:49:14 <dape> .. difficult to specify hard rules
07:49:34 <dape> ... leave it to the designer
07:50:51 <dape> ... agree we should try to come up with a descriptive category...
07:51:24 <dape> SK: ask Yongjing to add input to github
07:51:30 <dape> Yongjing: just did
07:52:57 <yingying> yingying has joined #wot-td
07:53:02 <dape> MK: looking at semantic annotations... client should be able to know which pattern to use
07:54:17 <dape> ... no concrete idea yet
07:54:31 <dape> ... looks at least promising to me
07:55:34 <dape> SK: discussion is ongoing...
07:56:09 <dape> Kajimoto: like Yongyings proposal
07:56:36 <dape> s/Yongyings/Yongjings
07:56:58 <kaz> s/Yongjings/Yongjing's/
07:56:59 <dape> TOPIC: General TD discussions
07:57:32 <dape> SK: Simplify the way how actions/properties and events are presented in TD
07:57:46 <dape> ... going back to original TD version
07:58:03 <dape> ... generic interaction container
07:58:18 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/258 GitHub Issue 258
07:58:37 <dape> ... use @type to mark interaction
07:59:09 <dape> ... even allow @type to be property and event
07:59:26 <dape> ... github issue #258, please comment
07:59:45 <dape> Kajimoto: not sure about @type proposal
08:00:43 <dape> .... purpose of TD is also about designer and which API to use
08:01:12 <dape> ... would like to see some API examples
08:01:37 <dape> ... should consider the combination of TD and API
08:01:56 <mjkoster> q+
08:01:59 <dape> SK: Thanks. Will provide some examples on Github
08:02:04 <dape> q?
08:02:28 <dape> MK: have an example of another pattern
08:02:55 <dape> ... mapping smart things to schema.org
08:03:04 <dape> ... have type and id (== command)
08:03:24 <dape> ... will provide example on Github
08:03:33 <dape> ... very much RDF-like
08:03:47 <dape> VC: is there a link we could look at?
08:03:57 <dape> MK: Will share link
08:04:49 <dape> SK: next is Github issue #254
08:05:15 <dape> ... Darko proposes to think about templates
08:05:41 <dape> ... not deeply discussed so far
08:05:56 <dape> ... propose to have abstract description of TD
08:06:13 <dape> .... start with abstract TD and enhance it later
08:06:22 <dape> ... please comment
08:06:40 <dape> ... fits also with TD lifecycle
08:06:58 <dape> SK: next is Github issue #255
08:07:32 <dape> ... move encodings and base url to resource/interaction
08:08:33 <dape> ... idea is to move global definitions to local definitions (being self-contained)
08:09:05 <dape> ... please comment
08:09:26 <dape> SK: next is Github issue #256 from Dave
08:10:07 <kaz> i|Darko proposes|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/254 GitHub Issue 254|
08:10:08 <dape> ... about compound properties
08:10:33 <kaz> i|move encodings and|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/255 GitHub Issue 255|
08:10:39 <dape> MK: will add comment... e.g. thing with 6 buttons..
08:10:54 <dape> ... notion of collection
08:10:59 <kaz> i|about compound|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/256 GitHub Issue 256|
08:11:03 <dape> SK: related to template?
08:11:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:11:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:11:14 <dape> MK: yes, I think we need both
08:11:53 <dape> SK: will link those 2 issues
08:12:03 <dape> SK: next is Github issue #257
08:12:35 <dape> ... about separating requirements from serialization formats
08:12:59 <dape> ... Dave is looking for volunteers to work with him on that
08:13:04 <victor> victor has joined #wot-td
08:13:30 <dape> MK: careful to sign up.... but looks interesting
08:14:00 <dape> ... workflow is important to look at
08:14:29 <dape> SK: That should be it for today..
08:14:46 <dape> ... will ask Gregg to join next meeting
08:15:37 <kaz> [ adjourned ]
08:16:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:16:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
11:37:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-td
12:05:18 <yingying> yingying has joined #wot-td
12:05:21 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
12:09:53 <sebastian> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
13:27:46 <yingying_> yingying_ has joined #wot-td
13:28:49 <ying_ying> ying_ying has joined #wot-td
14:47:42 <jefflinux> jefflinux has joined #wot-td