IRC log of wot-td on 2016-10-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:53:43 [RRSAgent]
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06:53:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-irc
07:01:03 [AZ]
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07:01:21 [AZ]
present+ AZ
07:03:16 [AZ]
AZ = Antoine Zimmermann
07:03:48 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Koster, Antoine_Zimmermann, Maxime_Lefrancois, Daniel_Peintner, Uday_Davuluru, Victor_Charpenay
07:05:41 [kaz]
present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
07:05:50 [dape]
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07:09:42 [maxime]
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07:10:24 [kaz]
present+ Kazuo_Kajimoto
07:10:31 [kaz]
scribe: Daniel
07:10:33 [kaz]
scribenick: dape
07:10:46 [mjkoster]
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07:10:47 [dape]
SK: Let's start with some logistics
07:10:56 [maxime]
present+ maxime
07:10:59 [dape]
... weekly call until first of November
07:11:18 [dape]
... re-structering used in next PlugFest
07:11:38 [dape]
... use Github for discussions
07:12:07 [kaz]
present+ Matthias_Kovatsch
07:12:13 [kajimoto]
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07:12:13 [dape]
... plan for today: start with property and actions
07:12:27 [kaz]
present+ Yongjing_Zhang
07:12:30 [dape]
... also finalize mediatype proposal
07:12:55 [dape]
... handle feedback we got about JSON-LD
07:13:17 [dape]
TOPIC: Properties vs. Actions
07:13:52 [dape]
SK: lets wait for Kaijimoto-san..
07:13:57 [dape]
.... switch topic
07:14:08 [dape]
TOPIC: Specify encodings
07:14:20 [dape]
... github issue #251
07:14:34 [dape]
... propose to use mimetypes instead of XML, JSON, ...
07:16:06 [dape]
... seems to be agreement about this topic
07:16:36 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/251 GitHub Issue 251
07:16:37 [dape]
SK: OK for everybody to integrate this comment?
07:16:51 [dape]
All: silence (--> agreement)
07:16:52 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
07:16:57 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:16:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:17:20 [AZ]
encoding is almost universally used in computer sciecnce to talk about "character encoding"
07:17:22 [dape]
SK: related issues whether to use term "encodings"
07:17:40 [dape]
... Maxime proposed to use format, representationType et cetera
07:18:19 [AZ]
content type sounds good
07:18:26 [dape]
MK: mediaType and contentType is commonly used
07:18:41 [maxime]
+1 for contentType
07:18:42 [AZ]
media type is fine for me too
07:18:51 [dape]
VC: Shall we use mediaType then?
07:19:28 [kaz]
i|sounds good|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/253 GitHub Issue 253|
07:19:33 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:19:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:19:44 [dape]
MK: guess mediaType makes sense
07:19:52 [kaz]
Meeting: WoT - TD Restructuring
07:20:01 [kaz]
Chair: Sebastian
07:20:02 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:20:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:20:23 [dape]
... should check IANA for a registered term
07:20:27 [AZ]
+1 mediaType
07:20:40 [kaz]
i/Let's start with/topic: Logistics/
07:20:42 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:20:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:21:09 [dape]
SK: Let's think about and comment... will make decision next week
07:21:24 [dape]
... ask Daniel to close issue
07:21:26 [dape]
DP: OK
07:22:57 [dape]
TOPIC: JSON-LD 1.1
07:23:18 [dape]
SK: related to issue #259
07:23:34 [dape]
Dave's proposal not aligned with JSON-LD specification
07:23:36 [kaz]
s/github issue #251/SK: github issue #251/
07:24:00 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/259 GitHub Issue 259
07:24:07 [dape]
... Gregg Kellogg mentioned new work is done in JSON-LD context
07:24:19 [dape]
... happy to integrate feedback
07:25:18 [dape]
... think we identified missing parts and should report it back to the JSON-LD group
07:25:36 [kajimoto]
I faced audio trouble...
07:25:44 [dape]
... I am very thankful that we can provide feedback
07:26:35 [dape]
DP: any timeline for JSON-LD 1.1?
07:26:45 [dape]
VC: No timeframe
07:27:10 [dape]
SK: I think they are currently collecting issues and proposals
07:27:24 [AZ]
q+
07:27:29 [dape]
... will try to invite Gregg to one of our next meetings
07:27:45 [kajimoto]
i can speak now, i hope...
07:27:49 [dape]
... should check back with Gregg
07:27:52 [dape]
q?
07:28:30 [dape]
AZ: JSON-LD 1.1 is not on standard track
07:28:33 [sebastian]
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07:28:42 [dape]
... developed in community group
07:29:09 [dape]
... unlikely to become standard
07:29:22 [Yongjing]
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07:29:59 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/community/json-ld/ JSON-LD CG
07:30:05 [katsu]
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07:30:15 [dape]
SK: Doesn't sufficient support mean that creating a standard would be feasible
07:30:29 [dape]
AZ: Yes, .. but there is no timeframe yet
07:31:10 [dape]
VC: Do see AZs concern... using new features in TD might be problematic
07:31:26 [kaz]
s/AZs/AZ's/
07:31:47 [dape]
AZ: Within interest group looking at it is fine.. in WG we should focus on standards
07:32:02 [dape]
SK: Let's check with Gregg
07:32:19 [dape]
... uncertainty is not good
07:33:14 [dape]
TOPIC: Properties vs. Actions
07:33:38 [dape]
SK: Difficult topic.... ongoing discussion on Github #247
07:34:33 [dape]
... tried to summarize viewpoints in my slide (TODO LINK)
07:35:09 [dape]
...current WoT assumption... property has static/dynamic states
07:35:33 [dape]
... e.g., read temperature, read/set RGB
07:35:55 [dape]
... Actions is more for function which has start and end
07:36:00 [dape]
... e.g. fadeIn
07:36:14 [dape]
... Doms proposal only readabke states
07:36:26 [dape]
... functions to enable/disable etc
07:36:48 [dape]
... Kajimoto-San: internal software status is property
07:36:59 [dape]
... hardware is action
07:37:11 [dape]
... another proposal is based on API Level
07:37:17 [dape]
... low level is property
07:37:18 [Yongjing]
the latest comment i made on this issue is to recommend people to look at the current practice of information modeling in oneM2M/SDT, where clear rules are made for reference. we don't need to suffer again the similar debate that people already experienced somewhere else.
07:37:26 [dape]
... complex API is actions
07:38:03 [dape]
... another proposal is to say we don't need a separate property and action
07:38:11 [kaz]
i|tried to summarize|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/247 GitHub Issue 247|
07:38:37 [dape]
SK: Unsure about what "we" should use/pick?
07:39:03 [dape]
Kajimoto: another proposal was about object-oriented analogy
07:39:24 [dape]
... read/change was property
07:39:28 [kaz]
s/Doms/Dom's/
07:39:36 [dape]
... function was action
07:39:37 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:39:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:40:15 [dape]
... my proposal seems similar to OO-analogy
07:40:27 [kaz]
s/readabke/readable/
07:40:31 [Yongjing]
q
07:40:31 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:40:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:40:31 [dape]
q?
07:40:45 [dape]
ack az
07:40:56 [victor]
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07:41:09 [dape]
SK: sometimes we do have something in between
07:41:11 [Yongjing]
q me in plz
07:41:15 [dape]
... not sure in that case
07:41:33 [kaz]
present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
07:41:34 [kaz]
q?
07:42:14 [kaz]
s/... Kajimoto/Kajimoto/
07:42:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:42:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:42:33 [dape]
Yongjing: according to my oneM2M experience.. different ways out there.. suggest to look at them
07:43:26 [dape]
... hard for developers to impose strict rules
07:43:41 [uday]
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07:44:28 [dape]
... our way should be flexible and powerful enough to handle different protocols
07:44:58 [dape]
SK: do you have the same issue in oneM2M (action vs property)
07:45:05 [dape]
Yongjing: yes
07:45:12 [dape]
in oneM2M there are clear rules
07:45:24 [dape]
... we could adapt them
07:45:32 [kaz]
s/in oneM2M/... in oneM2M/
07:45:34 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:45:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:46:20 [dape]
... oneM2M has 2 terms for properties: property (static e.g, device id) vs data-points (dynamic e.g, measurements)
07:46:38 [dape]
... the latter is functional
07:47:11 [mjkoster]
q+
07:47:27 [dape]
... difference between data-points and actions: property is stateless
07:47:54 [dape]
... action is stateful... e.g, increase temperature by X
07:48:20 [dape]
... this is just a rule.. people might choose different rule
07:49:04 [dape]
MK: had same discussion in OCF
07:49:14 [dape]
.. difficult to specify hard rules
07:49:34 [dape]
... leave it to the designer
07:50:51 [dape]
... agree we should try to come up with a descriptive category...
07:51:24 [dape]
SK: ask Yongjing to add input to github
07:51:30 [dape]
Yongjing: just did
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07:53:02 [dape]
MK: looking at semantic annotations... client should be able to know which pattern to use
07:54:17 [dape]
... no concrete idea yet
07:54:31 [dape]
... looks at least promising to me
07:55:34 [dape]
SK: discussion is ongoing...
07:56:09 [dape]
Kajimoto: like Yongyings proposal
07:56:36 [dape]
s/Yongyings/Yongjings
07:56:58 [kaz]
s/Yongjings/Yongjing's/
07:56:59 [dape]
TOPIC: General TD discussions
07:57:32 [dape]
SK: Simplify the way how actions/properties and events are presented in TD
07:57:46 [dape]
... going back to original TD version
07:58:03 [dape]
... generic interaction container
07:58:18 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/258 GitHub Issue 258
07:58:37 [dape]
... use @type to mark interaction
07:59:09 [dape]
... even allow @type to be property and event
07:59:26 [dape]
... github issue #258, please comment
07:59:45 [dape]
Kajimoto: not sure about @type proposal
08:00:43 [dape]
.... purpose of TD is also about designer and which API to use
08:01:12 [dape]
... would like to see some API examples
08:01:37 [dape]
... should consider the combination of TD and API
08:01:56 [mjkoster]
q+
08:01:59 [dape]
SK: Thanks. Will provide some examples on Github
08:02:04 [dape]
q?
08:02:28 [dape]
MK: have an example of another pattern
08:02:55 [dape]
... mapping smart things to schema.org
08:03:04 [dape]
... have type and id (== command)
08:03:24 [dape]
... will provide example on Github
08:03:33 [dape]
... very much RDF-like
08:03:47 [dape]
VC: is there a link we could look at?
08:03:57 [dape]
MK: Will share link
08:04:49 [dape]
SK: next is Github issue #254
08:05:15 [dape]
... Darko proposes to think about templates
08:05:41 [dape]
... not deeply discussed so far
08:05:56 [dape]
... propose to have abstract description of TD
08:06:13 [dape]
.... start with abstract TD and enhance it later
08:06:22 [dape]
... please comment
08:06:40 [dape]
... fits also with TD lifecycle
08:06:58 [dape]
SK: next is Github issue #255
08:07:32 [dape]
... move encodings and base url to resource/interaction
08:08:33 [dape]
... idea is to move global definitions to local definitions (being self-contained)
08:09:05 [dape]
... please comment
08:09:26 [dape]
SK: next is Github issue #256 from Dave
08:10:07 [kaz]
i|Darko proposes|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/254 GitHub Issue 254|
08:10:08 [dape]
... about compound properties
08:10:33 [kaz]
i|move encodings and|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/255 GitHub Issue 255|
08:10:39 [dape]
MK: will add comment... e.g. thing with 6 buttons..
08:10:54 [dape]
... notion of collection
08:10:59 [kaz]
i|about compound|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/256 GitHub Issue 256|
08:11:03 [dape]
SK: related to template?
08:11:04 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:11:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:11:14 [dape]
MK: yes, I think we need both
08:11:53 [dape]
SK: will link those 2 issues
08:12:03 [dape]
SK: next is Github issue #257
08:12:35 [dape]
... about separating requirements from serialization formats
08:12:59 [dape]
... Dave is looking for volunteers to work with him on that
08:13:04 [victor]
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08:13:30 [dape]
MK: careful to sign up.... but looks interesting
08:14:00 [dape]
... workflow is important to look at
08:14:29 [dape]
SK: That should be it for today..
08:14:46 [dape]
... will ask Gregg to join next meeting
08:15:37 [kaz]
[ adjourned ]
08:16:21 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:16:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
11:37:06 [Zakim]
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12:05:18 [yingying]
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12:05:21 [sebastian]
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12:09:53 [sebastian]
present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
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