16:56:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:56:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-aria-irc
16:56:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:56:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:56:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:56:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:56:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:56:27 <trackbot> Date: 06 October 2016
17:01:24 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:04:01 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: WebEx URL: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=md27b4a8f598994e81577a285c4ea80c6 Meeting number:
17:04:14 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: WebEx URL: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=md27b4a8f598994e81577a285c4ea80c6 Meeting number: 641 291 851
17:04:47 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
17:05:31 <janina> janina has joined #aria
17:06:08 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:06:13 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:07:33 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:09:11 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:09:59 <ShaneM> ScribeNick: ShaneM
17:10:24 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
17:10:24 <Zakim> Present: ShaneM, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:10:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see clown, janina, jongund, Zakim, RRSAgent, Rich, Stefan, AmeliaBR, hadleybeeman, ShaneM, timeless, Josh_Soref, MichaelC, slightlyoff, jasonjgw_, yatil, MichielBijl,
17:10:26 <Zakim> ... JonathanNeal_, trackbot, joanie
17:10:39 <ShaneM> TOPIC: ARIA 1.1 Readiness
17:10:49 <ShaneM> Rich: We have the mappings that we were lacking.
17:11:06 <ShaneM> ... we are still missing some things to tables but I don't see any modifications to the ARIA 1.1 spec.
17:11:17 <ShaneM> ... can anyone think of any blockers for CR.
17:13:02 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaErrorMessage
17:13:05 <ShaneM> joanie: I dont anticipate aria-details and aria-errormessage being a problem.  Mappings are done, but the APIs for my platform are not yet done.  They should be next week.
17:13:13 <ShaneM> ... I don't know if they are in IA2.
17:13:23 <ShaneM> Rich: they are in the IDL but not yet implemented.
17:13:39 <ShaneM> Rich: I have not yet seen keyboardtext... key shortcut?
17:13:44 <ShaneM> joanie: I don't remember
17:13:49 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaKeyshortcuts
17:14:11 <ShaneM> clown: the current mapping exposes it in an object attribute.
17:14:16 <ShaneM> ... it is definitely mapped in IA2
17:14:49 <ShaneM> Rich: we may need some new interfaces for tables.  I was talking with NVDA about that.  Rows/columns + indexes and counts might be a little confused still.
17:15:14 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17
17:15:32 <ShaneM> Rich: I have cleanup spec nits...  needs to be done
17:15:36 <ShaneM> joanie: I think it is done
17:15:39 <clown> issue-695
17:15:39 <trackbot> issue-695 -- Clean up nits in the ARIA specification -- open
17:15:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/695
17:15:41 <ShaneM> Rich: then close it.
17:15:51 <clown> action-1567
17:15:51 <trackbot> action-1567 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Fix inconsistencies in linking and styles for properties -- due 2016-05-26 -- OPEN
17:15:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1567
17:16:05 <clown> actoin-2082
17:16:12 <clown> action-2082
17:16:12 <trackbot> action-2082 -- Michael Cooper to Investigate having regular links to apg for each aria feature -- due 2016-09-16 -- OPEN
17:16:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2082
17:16:12 <ShaneM> Rich: The links to APG... we know itis not ready.
17:16:21 <ShaneM> ... do we need to do something before we make it to PR?
17:16:34 <ShaneM> MichaelC: we can do that if we put a note in saying we intend to add them.
17:16:47 <ShaneM> clown: A link for every role and a link for every aria-* ?
17:17:07 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I don't know that we will have that before Rec.  I don't think we are going to be in a position to do that in the ARIA 1.1 timeframe.
17:17:13 <ShaneM> Rich: I can move that to 1.2...
17:17:20 <ShaneM> MichaelC: That seems okay.
17:17:52 <joanie> q+ to blame illness and say the nits still need a quick find and replace. So reopened and will do next week (if not tomorrow)
17:17:53 <ShaneM> Rich: Okay, i have moved it.
17:18:03 <joanie> ack me
17:18:03 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to blame illness and say the nits still need a quick find and replace. So reopened and will do next week (if not tomorrow)
17:18:25 <clown> action-1719
17:18:25 <trackbot> action-1719 -- Michael Cooper to Draft aria 1.1 cr exit criteria -- due 2015-10-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:18:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1719
17:18:27 <hadleybeeman> hadleybeeman has left #aria
17:18:39 <ShaneM> MichaelC: this becomes top priority now to start staging
17:18:51 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaKeyshortcuts
17:18:57 <ShaneM> Rich: do you need one more week of tweaking?
17:19:03 <ShaneM> q+
17:19:45 <ShaneM> Rich: Do I need to put a link in?
17:19:53 <ShaneM> MichaelC: Some text abotu status needs to eb added.
17:20:00 <ShaneM> q?
17:20:02 <Rich> q?
17:20:37 <ShaneM> Shane points out that Joanie wants to edit nits
17:20:43 <ShaneM> MichaelC: As long as it is editorial I don't care
17:20:53 <ShaneM> joanie: It is really is editorial.  Nothing that should block CR
17:21:16 <ShaneM> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Take ARIA 1.1 and advance to CR with correction to minor nits by Joanie.
17:21:22 <ShaneM> +1
17:21:26 <Rich> +1
17:21:32 <joanie> +1000
17:21:42 <Stefan> +1
17:21:48 <clown> +1
17:22:04 <ShaneM> RESOLUTION: Take ARIA 1.1 and advance to CR with correction to minor nits by Joanie.
17:23:27 <ShaneM> ... michael finds GIT pointer
17:23:31 <MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/07b7c8c65add171a0ba19234489aec4fb4b811ea/aria/aria.html
17:24:25 <ShaneM> Rich: I believe the aria-dpub module can be published as CR.  Need data from Tzviya
17:24:39 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/28
17:24:49 <ShaneM> Rich: we have mappings for all platforms except UIA
17:24:53 <clown> ^ No issues nor actions for DPUB-AAM
17:24:54 <ShaneM> MichaelC: are they implemented yet?
17:25:09 <ShaneM> Rich: no - but I know that people are willing to implement
17:25:20 <ShaneM> MichaelC: We cant publish until we know that we can exit CR.
17:25:55 <ShaneM> Rich: I think we are really close for that.  I will send it off to FF and Google and point out to Google that most of redium based readers are based upon chrome.
17:26:19 <ShaneM> ... I need to know from tzviya who is going to implement within dpub industry.  she told us once
17:26:30 <ShaneM> TOPIC:  ARIA 2.0 Triage and requirements
17:26:32 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_2.0_Issue_Triage
17:26:47 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/507
17:27:16 <ShaneM> aria-expanded on a role...
17:27:26 <ShaneM> s/role/row/
17:27:26 <clown> issue-507
17:27:26 <trackbot> issue-507 -- Row role says aria-expanded can be used in a treegrid but not a grid; this can lead to author error; should clarify for authors, conformance checkers, etc. -- open
17:27:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/507
17:28:03 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/07b7c8c65add171a0ba19234489aec4fb4b811ea/aria/aria.html#aria-expanded
17:28:05 <ShaneM> Rich: I don't think this has really been an issue,.  Let me look at the spec.
17:28:26 <ShaneM> ... I don't know why this would add to confusion.
17:28:53 <ShaneM> clown: I am looking at aria-expanded and it is inherited into row.
17:28:55 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2012/04/30-pf-minutes#item12
17:29:00 <MichaelC> issue-507: https://www.w3.org/2012/04/30-pf-minutes#item12
17:29:00 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-507 Row role says aria-expanded can be used in a treegrid but not a grid; this can lead to author error; should clarify for authors, conformance checkers, etc..
17:29:17 <Rich> his is not the case for an ordinary table or grid, in which the aria-expanded attribute is not present.
17:29:29 <Rich> In a treegrid, authors MAY mark rows as expandable, using the aria-expanded attribute to indicate the present status. This is not the case for an ordinary table or grid, in which the aria-expanded attribute is not present.
17:30:02 <ShaneM> Rich: we have it as an inherited attribute.
17:30:23 <ShaneM> ... but isnt the fact that it is called out here...     do we need to put something in the table to make it clear this is only for treegrids?
17:31:47 <ShaneM> ... should we put this in 1.2?  It is just cleanup
17:32:04 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I think there are some weirdnesses like this in the spec.  Does the group want to live with them or try to clean them up?
17:32:10 <ShaneM> Rich: Do people want to close this?
17:34:33 <ShaneM> joanie: I dont think this counts as a 1.2 verbiage problem.
17:34:43 <ShaneM> Rich: okay, so you think this is enough text as it stands?
17:34:46 <ShaneM> ... reads text.
17:34:49 <ShaneM> joanie: I think that is fine.
17:34:56 <ShaneM> Rich: I am heading "close"... any objection?
17:35:32 <clown> issue-512
17:35:32 <trackbot> issue-512 -- Clean up relatedConcept references; XForms and DAISY could be outdated or otherwise not useful, others as well -- open
17:35:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/512
17:35:39 <clown> issue-519
17:35:39 <trackbot> issue-519 -- Consider removing aria-level from grid (already allowed on row) -- open
17:35:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/519
17:35:59 <ShaneM> Rich: do we still link to XForms?
17:36:25 <ShaneM> MichaelC: we probably never removed what was there.  These are editorial.  But when we look at them people still think they are important.
17:36:29 <ShaneM> Rich: so 2.0 or 1.2?
17:36:39 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I would like to clean them up?
17:37:05 <ShaneM> Rich: Okay - 1.2
17:37:35 <clown> issue-509
17:37:35 <trackbot> issue-509 -- For cross-referenced role and attrs (e.g. listbox, see combobox and list), expand on the explanation of why they are similar or easily confusable concepts. -- raised
17:37:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/509
17:37:55 <ShaneM> Rich: any concerns about punting?
17:38:02 <ShaneM> clown: this one is already set to aria 2
17:38:17 <ShaneM> Rich: I know, but we are triaging so... is it okay to pu tinto authoring practices?
17:38:20 <ShaneM> clown: sure
17:39:07 <clown> issue-515
17:39:07 <trackbot> issue-515 -- Should aria-invalid and aria-disabled really be a global state? -- open
17:39:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/515
17:39:27 <ShaneM> Rich: This is more than just forms and whatnot.
17:39:43 <MichaelC> issue-515: https://www.w3.org/2012/05/07-pf-minutes#item12
17:39:43 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-515 Should aria-invalid and aria-disabled really be a global state?.
17:39:47 <ShaneM> clown: I htink this came up in testing last time around.  We were using role=main to test invalid, and people were complaining.
17:40:04 <ShaneM> Rich: but if you put it on text... where it doesn't require a role, then you have a problem.
17:40:12 <ShaneM> joanie: when you say text do you mean just any old string?
17:40:19 <ShaneM> Rich: Yes...
17:40:23 <ShaneM> clown: well, you need an element
17:40:39 <ShaneM> joanie: I think this is worth addressing....
17:40:42 <ShaneM> Rich: in 1.2?
17:41:24 <ShaneM> joanie: You mentioned content-editable.  That is dependent on what that mapping is, and that might be distinguishable.  We have a lot of things that are global
17:41:55 <ShaneM> Not closing.  leave in aria 2
17:42:05 <joanie> s/that are global/that are global and shouldn't be/
17:42:24 <clown> issue-54
17:42:24 <trackbot> issue-54 -- Conflicting properties inheriting through taxonomy -- raised
17:42:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/54
17:42:31 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I am okay with closing it
17:42:38 <ShaneM> Rich: if they find a problem later, matt will let us know
17:42:45 <ShaneM> ... largely addressed in ARIA 1.1
17:43:23 <ShaneM> MichaelC: the scripts keep things tied together better now.
17:43:27 <ShaneM> ISSUE-338
17:43:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-338 -- Address the use of the xlink:title attribute in computing the text equivalent for determining an accessible name. -- raised
17:43:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/338
17:43:28 <clown> issue-338
17:43:28 <trackbot> issue-338 -- Address the use of the xlink:title attribute in computing the text equivalent for determining an accessible name. -- raised
17:43:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/338
17:44:08 <ShaneM> ShaneM: overcome by events
17:44:27 <ShaneM> ISSUE-141
17:44:27 <trackbot> Sorry, but ISSUE-141 does not exist.
17:44:31 <ShaneM> ISSUE-941
17:44:31 <trackbot> Sorry, but ISSUE-941 does not exist.
17:44:33 <clown> issue-481
17:44:33 <trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
17:44:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/481
17:44:54 <ShaneM> Rich: do we say anyting about the sequencing?  This would need to go into the AAM
17:45:05 <ShaneM> clown: he is actually citing the old AIG
17:45:11 <ShaneM> clown: I have a note to move it to ARIA 2
17:45:17 <ShaneM> Rich: but it is still a core-aam issue
17:45:35 <ShaneM> ...  I am goin to move it to aria 2.0 core-aam
17:45:43 <ShaneM> clown: I wonder if this text still exists
17:45:54 <ShaneM> ISSUE-501
17:45:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-501 -- Allow menuitem, menuitemcheckbox to have a group parent like menuitemradio does when in a menu role -- open
17:45:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/501
17:47:30 <ShaneM> Rich: I agree -w hy would you have that in a group
17:47:50 <ShaneM> clown: why are menu items require group...
17:47:54 <ShaneM> Rich: it has to be in one of those
17:48:02 <ShaneM> ... checkbox could go into that list
17:48:26 <ShaneM> Rich: I have never heard of it being an issue.   We could fix it in 1.2.
17:48:30 <ShaneM> clown: fine with me
17:48:38 <ShaneM> Rich: Editing the issue....
17:49:30 <clown> issue-511
17:49:30 <trackbot> issue-511 -- Provide better definition for input: what roles should descend from it because they provide a value to be stored, and what roles are adjusting values of UI components but it's not intended for long-term storage -- open
17:49:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/511
17:50:07 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/07b7c8c65add171a0ba19234489aec4fb4b811ea/aria/aria.html#input
17:50:24 <MichaelC> issue-511: https://www.w3.org/2012/04/30-pf-minutes#item21
17:50:25 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-511 Provide better definition for input: what roles should descend from it because they provide a value to be stored, and what roles are adjusting values of UI components but it's not intended for long-term storage.
17:51:17 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR_ARIA_1_1_0/aria/aria.html#input
17:52:30 <ShaneM> ISSUE-518
17:52:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-518 -- Consider adding aria-level to landmark regions -- open
17:52:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/518
17:53:41 <ShaneM> ShaneM: I don't understand how it would hook into the structure....
17:53:49 <ShaneM> Rich: I agree, this seems like a bad idea.
17:53:52 <ShaneM> clown: ask Matt?
17:53:57 <ShaneM> Rich: I am going to leave it in ARIA 2
17:54:07 <ShaneM> ISSUE-530
17:54:07 <trackbot> ISSUE-530 -- Since "req owned elements" can list contextual hierarchies like tree: "group →(containing) treeitem", consider doing the same for "req owned elements like treeitem "group ← (contained in) tree." -- open
17:54:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/530
17:55:01 <ShaneM> MichaelC: This is something that would be addressed by the maintenance scripts I assume
17:55:05 <ShaneM> Rich: Do you want it in 1.2?
17:55:16 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I dont think it is a burning issue.  Nice to have.
17:55:45 <clown> issue-520
17:55:45 <trackbot> issue-520 -- Expand list of roles on which aria-readonly can be used, most likely changing textbox to input - ARIA 1.1 -- open
17:55:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/520
17:56:27 <Rich> 
17:56:27 <Rich>     checkbox
17:56:29 <Rich>     combobox
17:56:30 <Rich>     grid
17:56:32 <Rich>     gridcell
17:56:33 <ShaneM> joanie: I think this is fixed...
17:56:33 <Rich>     listbox
17:56:35 <Rich>     radiogroup
17:56:36 <Rich>     slider
17:56:37 <Rich>     spinbutton
17:56:38 <Rich>     textbox
17:56:44 <Rich> ihherited into:
17:56:46 <Rich>     columnheader
17:56:47 <Rich>     menuitemcheckbox
17:56:48 <Rich>     menuitemradio
17:56:50 <Rich>     rowheader
17:56:51 <Rich>     searchbox
17:56:52 <Rich>     switch
17:56:53 <Rich>     treegrid
17:57:14 <ShaneM> joanie: I am comfortable with closing this.  I suspect this has been dealt with.
17:57:22 <ShaneM> Rich: I am going to close it as overcome by eventsw
17:57:28 <ShaneM> s/eventsw/events/
17:57:39 <ShaneM> TOPIC: Testing
17:58:24 <ShaneM> Rich: Jon Gunderson reported that we have a working harness for ATK ATSPI.  He is going to use python based bridge from NVDA to be able to build the ATTA for MSAA and IA2
17:58:36 <ShaneM> ... joanie are you looking at doing webkit?
17:59:25 <ShaneM> joanie: I am going to work with people at Apple to do this
17:59:41 <ShaneM> Rich: microsoft agreed to do the UIA mapping
17:59:48 <ShaneM> ... we just have to fix up the testable statements
18:00:12 <ShaneM> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#Overview
18:01:56 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-term
18:02:46 <ShaneM> ShaneM: some errors in the role testable statement section... shane will fix
18:02:57 <ShaneM> Rich: there will be API work on tables and such
18:03:18 <ShaneM> Rich: working to get James Teh to be added as an invited expert.
18:03:36 <ShaneM> ... trying to bring the AT vendors in here.  They like to discuss mapping work in public (in their lists)
18:03:39 <ShaneM> ... then bring it back here
18:06:05 <ShaneM> Rich: some edge cases come in...  aria-labelled by not working on an applet....
18:06:15 <ShaneM> MichaelC: the tools could generate more comprehensive tests
18:06:54 <ShaneM> Rich: I thiin the graphics and svg-aam are ready to go to CR...
18:07:03 <ShaneM> s/thiin/think/
18:07:24 <ShaneM> ... I did meet with plh that indicate some things might be removed from SVG...
18:07:31 <ShaneM> MichaelC: that might not mean anything for me.
18:07:40 <ShaneM> Rich: It does effect things like shadow trees.
18:07:54 <ShaneM> ... I think that we are good shape all the way around.
18:08:10 <ShaneM> Rich: I do think that need to define exit criteria for the mapping specs.  We will need to revisit that.
18:08:19 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-aria-minutes.html ShaneM
18:08:29 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make logs public
18:08:46 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
18:11:43 <ShaneM> Chair: Rich
18:11:49 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-aria-minutes.html ShaneM
18:24:19 <clown> clown has joined #aria
19:25:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
21:04:42 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
22:01:04 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria