07:01:38 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 07:01:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-irc 07:02:12 taki has joined #wot-td 07:04:19 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-ig/2016Oct/0001.html 07:04:30 Meeting: TD Restructuring 07:05:18 Victor has joined #wot-td 07:06:58 dape has joined #wot-td 07:08:48 scribenick: Victor 07:09:03 dsr has joined #wot-td 07:09:15 sebastian has joined #wot-td 07:09:32 (Waiting a few minutes more...) 07:10:15 present: Kaz_Ashimura, Achille_Zappa, Daniel_Peintner, Dave_Raggett, Lionel_Medini, Matthias_Kovatsch, Soumya_Kanti_Datta, Taki_Kamiya, Victor_Carpenay 07:11:51 present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka 07:12:46 Sebastian (SK): let's start. Goal here: discuss TD structure more in details. First of a series of telcos until next PlugFest (February( 07:12:53 Soumya has joined #wot-td 07:12:58 mlefranc has joined #wot-td 07:13:04 present+ Andrei_Ciortea, Maxime_Lefrancois, Antoine_Zimmermann 07:13:05 s/February(/February)/ 07:13:07 mkovatsc has joined #wot-td 07:13:27 s/Sebastian (SK):/Sebastian_(SK):/ 07:13:58 i/Sebastian:/topic: Logistics/ 07:14:18 q+ 07:14:23 DarkoAnicic has joined #wot-td 07:14:27 andrei has joined #wot-td 07:14:30 present+ DarkoAnicic 07:14:39 q- 07:14:45 katsu has joined #wot-td 07:14:51 AZ has joined #wot-td 07:14:57 q+ on a process question 07:15:38 SK: more precisely: around 5 telcos, then time for implementation until February. 07:16:02 AchilleZ has joined #wot-td 07:16:09 Add folders to which URI? 07:16:27 (we should have the slides linked from the minutes) 07:16:46 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring TD Restructuring proposal 07:18:20 Motivation to restructure TD: feedback provided during PlugFests, on Github and by external organizations (OCF, BIG IoT) 07:18:53 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring TD Restructuring proposal (revisited) 07:19:26 1. when to use properties/acton/event? 07:20:20 see https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/247 07:20:43 not only related to TD. 07:20:57 2. properties/actions/events are not self-contained 07:21:08 https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/251 07:21:39 i/Motivation/topic: Problem statements/ 07:21:48 s/Motivation/SK: Motivation/ 07:23:20 q? 07:23:27 q+ maxime 07:23:36 ack m 07:24:00 example: URI resolution if relative / different protocols or encodings at the interaction level (vs. thing level) 07:24:56 q+ 07:26:05 ack dsr 07:26:05 dsr, you wanted to comment on a process question 07:27:23 q+ 07:27:31 q+ 07:27:35 q? 07:27:35 Maxime_(ML): question: RDFS range for "encodings" defined? If not, one can defined it as Thing or Property/Action/Event. 07:27:49 SK: should be possible. 07:28:23 Dave encourages the TD subgroup to adopt a more formal process 07:28:45 use cases, requirements, .. prepare a solid ground for the WG 07:28:59 s/Dave encourages/Dave: encourages/ 07:29:20 part of this work has been started at the beginning of the IG 07:30:31 Dave_(DR): we should adopt a more formal approach here: update use case & requirements if we are about to change the TD. Example: many encodings and protocols across platforms, which ones are we addressing? 07:31:13 q+ 07:31:14 +1 for Dave's proposal 07:31:31 SK: volunteers to work on that? 07:33:09 Kaz: 2-step procedure? 1. new use cases, 2. new proposal one can compare to the use cases 07:33:47 Dave: this should be done in parallel 07:34:08 SK: idea of the PlugFests was to have quick iterations 07:34:08 ... what is important is to be able to refer back to a decision to justify a feature 07:34:29 DR: this should be done in parallel 07:35:26 s/ 2-step procedure? 1. new use cases, 2. new proposal one can compare to the use cases/we can do the following in parallel: 1. asking for volunteers to update the use case document itself and 2. providing proposals for TD Restructuring (during calls and on emails) along with concrete use cases/ 07:35:43 rrsagent, make log public 07:35:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:35:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 07:35:55 q? 07:36:17 Chair: Sebastian 07:36:26 q? 07:36:29 ack kaz 07:36:33 Daniel_(DP): should be possible to keep track of changes/proposals. 07:37:38 Kaz: Wiki page to gather all changes? 07:37:49 lmedini has joined #wot-td 07:38:15 Matthias_(MK): having Github issues is maybe enough 07:38:17 s/changes/propsals/ 07:38:18 Dave thinks very few members of the IG look at the github issues, so that in practice results in only very limited scrutiny. 07:38:57 s/proposals/proposals with concrete use cases and example notations/ 07:39:19 q? 07:39:24 ack mkovatsc 07:39:24 q- 07:39:28 ack Dar 07:39:30 Kaz: GitHub issues is ok and people are encouraged to add concrete usecases and examples 07:39:34 ack dape 07:39:35 q? 07:39:57 SK: what about regularly compiling the issues in a "changelog"? 07:40:08 Back to the queue. Darko? 07:40:30 Dave thinks that it is important to keep requirements distinct, as JSON is just one possible way to represent metadata 07:41:24 q? 07:41:56 q+ 07:42:11 Darko_(DA): previous point: relative URIs might be a limitation but they also have benefits, such as "templating" (only the base URI is changing between things) 07:42:18 +1 for Dave's comment 07:42:24 SK: next in the queue 07:43:55 DR: we should really separate requirements from proposals. Should engage a discussion in the mailing-list 07:44:45 Action: Darko to create an issue: properties, actions, events can be saved in the TD repository separately as templates. A TD can be created based on a concrete set of them and instantiate with a concrete URI. In this settings, the current proposal with href makes sense. 07:44:46 Created ACTION-77 - Create an issue: properties, actions, events can be saved in the td repository separately as templates. a td can be created based on a concrete set of them and instantiate with a concrete uri. in this settings, the current proposal with href makes sense. [on Anicic Darko - due 2016-10-12]. 07:44:57 ack dsr 07:45:55 SK: Matthias proposed having first issues and then a summary document allows commenting on each topic 07:46:17 DR: one should be able to comment on the documents as well. 07:46:43 kaz: thinking about how to record those two topics separately would make sense 07:46:58 topic: Problem statements 2 07:47:54 SK:explicit vs. implicit knowledge 07:48:29 q+ 07:49:12 MK: OCF is using other methods than WoT for the same operations, we should be able to specifiy methods in the TD as well. 07:50:02 SK: second point, we should also refine spec. of encodings (define them at the interaction level, use media types) 07:50:41 q+ 07:50:49 ML: methodology? Who resolves the issues, who takes action? 07:51:15 q? 07:51:18 ack ml 07:51:55 SK: first proposal in a separate folder, then discussion during the calls until we reach agreement 07:52:06 ML: what about using PRs? 07:53:18 ack mlefranc 07:54:23 q+ 07:55:06 ack mk 07:55:16 MK: precisions about our process: 1. proposal, 2. discussion -> consensus?, 3 integrated in the current practices doc (PR?) 07:55:58 ML: deadline on issues (like 1 month)? 07:56:23 q? 07:56:26 ack da 07:56:29 MK: not sure it is a good idea: some issues have taken longer in the past (e.g. charters) 07:57:53 DP: precisions needed: from 1 issue, 2 were created during the discussion -> 3 issues now open that relate to the same one. 07:58:40 q+ 07:58:50 MK: one can reference issues from other issues. We should use similar labels (tags?). Common sense needed. 07:59:28 the person who opened the issue is supposed to track what happens and close it when required 08:00:10 Taki_(TK): possible to notify the mailing-list when an issue is open? 08:01:45 SK: you can also "watch" the repository (see Github) 08:02:35 Kaz: we encourage all to do it 08:03:19 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/subscription WoT repository subscription 08:03:56 s/do it/subscribe the "WoT" repository 08:04:46 SK: we should send an e-mail to the group pointing that out 08:06:27 MK: only summaries and clean reports should be sent to the mailing-list 08:06:47 more technical discussions should happen on Github 08:07:50 ML: from the experience of the Spatial Data on the Web WG (that duplicates every issue), the WoT process seems a bit better 08:08:10 topic: Classification 08:08:13 MK: should be raised in our general call today 08:08:25 s/topic: Classification// 08:08:25 topic: Classification 08:09:56 SK: for all issues mentioned here: restructuring/renaming/new vocabulary needed 08:10:11 s/new vocabulary needed/new vocabulary needed?/ 08:10:52 slides to be found in the proposal folder (Github) 08:11:37 topic: First TD Restructuring Ideas 08:13:21 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring#user-content-todays-td-basic-structure Today's Basic TD Structure 08:13:36 Should we plan to provide mappings with other vocabularies, such as Hydra? 08:14:35 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring#user-content-todays-td-basic-structure#user-content-sample Proposed Basic TD Structure 08:14:48 q? 08:15:03 SK: maybe go back to the original TD structure? With key "interactions" instead of "properties","actions","events" 08:15:03 ack taki 08:15:27 q+ 08:15:28 q? 08:16:07 + "encodings" and "url" defined for each interaction 08:16:51 lmedini: mappings with other vocabularies, e.g., Hydra? 08:17:07 sk: some discussion on Hydra during TPAC 08:17:15 -> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html#item02 Hydra breakout during TPAC 08:17:29 i/lmedini:/scribenick: kaz/ 08:17:35 scribenick: Victor/ 08:17:37 scribenick: Victor 08:17:48 s#scribenick: Victor/#E 08:17:50 s#scribenick: Victor/## 08:18:02 s|s#scribenick: Victor/#E|| 08:18:16 q? 08:18:40 victor: have an action item to investigate Hydra 08:18:52 s/scribenick: Victor// 08:18:57 scribenick: Victor 08:19:06 Victor_(VC): there is an action item pending regarding Hydra (I have to take). A separate discussion will take place soon 08:19:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:19:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 08:19:30 AZ has joined #wot-td 08:19:38 VC: I'll create an issue and add a proposal. 08:20:11 SK: (shows an example with the new structure) 08:20:12 Yes, thanks victor 08:20:36 q+ 08:20:49 ack lm 08:20:50 q- 08:21:14 q+ 08:21:56 key "endpoint" is added. interactions: [ "name", "endpoint": { "urls", "encoding" } ] 08:22:41 q+ 08:22:42 DA: how to provide kind of templates then? 08:25:32 We should feel free to go beyond JSON-LD provided we give a means to map to RDF 08:26:00 +1 for each of us 08:26:05 MK: it actually depends on the serialization (here JSON-LD). We should maybe focus on the "abstract" model instead 08:26:40 q+ 08:26:46 +1 for abstract model. 08:26:47 q- 08:26:50 q+ 08:26:51 ack darko 08:27:20 SK: then, how to continue? Which tools should we use to work on an abstract model? 08:29:30 ML: Protégé is a tool the Semantic Web community uses. 08:30:17 q+ 08:31:04 MK: one point: with using JSON-LD we had the hope to attract Web developers. 08:31:39 q- 08:31:42 q? 08:31:45 ack mlefranc 08:31:48 `q+ 08:31:49 ack dape 08:31:54 q+ Victor 08:32:04 s/`q+// 08:32:09 q? 08:32:15 ack darko 08:33:42 DA: at the beginning, we created an (OWL) ontology. But it got outdated quickly because of too many changes in the JSON-LD version. 08:34:09 maxime: can help Victor for that purpose 08:35:06 antoine: we can use turtle(?) for discussion and include JSON version examples in the document 08:35:09 Antoine_(AZ): what we should agree on is a rough structure for the TD. We could use Turtle for that purpose within the group. To the world, we should present JSON-LD examples 08:35:15 s/antoine: we can use turtle(?) for discussion and include JSON version examples in the document// 08:36:30 Darko: I am also willing to contribute on the Turtle model for TD 08:37:18 SK: agreement on working at a more abstract level? 08:37:47 Combining Turtle (internally) and JSON-LD (externally)? 08:38:28 action items to turn into issues on Github! 08:38:29 Error finding 'items'. You can review and register nicknames at . 08:39:13 [ adjourned ] 08:39:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:39:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 08:39:23 andrei has left #wot-td 08:40:38 rrsagent, stop