IRC log of wot-td on 2016-10-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-irc
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07:04:19 [kaz]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-ig/2016Oct/0001.html
07:04:30 [kaz]
Meeting: TD Restructuring
07:05:18 [Victor]
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07:08:48 [kaz]
scribenick: Victor
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07:09:32 [Victor]
(Waiting a few minutes more...)
07:10:15 [kaz]
present: Kaz_Ashimura, Achille_Zappa, Daniel_Peintner, Dave_Raggett, Lionel_Medini, Matthias_Kovatsch, Soumya_Kanti_Datta, Taki_Kamiya, Victor_Carpenay
07:11:51 [kaz]
present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
07:12:46 [Victor]
Sebastian (SK): let's start. Goal here: discuss TD structure more in details. First of a series of telcos until next PlugFest (February(
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07:13:04 [kaz]
present+ Andrei_Ciortea, Maxime_Lefrancois, Antoine_Zimmermann
07:13:05 [Victor]
s/February(/February)/
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07:13:27 [kaz]
s/Sebastian (SK):/Sebastian_(SK):/
07:13:58 [kaz]
i/Sebastian:/topic: Logistics/
07:14:18 [kaz]
q+
07:14:23 [DarkoAnicic]
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07:14:30 [DarkoAnicic]
present+ DarkoAnicic
07:14:39 [kaz]
q-
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07:14:57 [dsr]
q+ on a process question
07:15:38 [Victor]
SK: more precisely: around 5 telcos, then time for implementation until February.
07:16:02 [AchilleZ]
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07:16:09 [dsr]
Add folders to which URI?
07:16:27 [dsr]
(we should have the slides linked from the minutes)
07:16:46 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring TD Restructuring proposal
07:18:20 [Victor]
Motivation to restructure TD: feedback provided during PlugFests, on Github and by external organizations (OCF, BIG IoT)
07:18:53 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring TD Restructuring proposal (revisited)
07:19:26 [Victor]
1. when to use properties/acton/event?
07:20:20 [Victor]
see https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/247
07:20:43 [Victor]
not only related to TD.
07:20:57 [Victor]
2. properties/actions/events are not self-contained
07:21:08 [mlefranc]
https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/251
07:21:39 [kaz]
i/Motivation/topic: Problem statements/
07:21:48 [kaz]
s/Motivation/SK: Motivation/
07:23:20 [dsr]
q?
07:23:27 [kaz]
q+ maxime
07:23:36 [kaz]
ack m
07:24:00 [Victor]
example: URI resolution if relative / different protocols or encodings at the interaction level (vs. thing level)
07:24:56 [DarkoAnicic]
q+
07:26:05 [kaz]
ack dsr
07:26:05 [Zakim]
dsr, you wanted to comment on a process question
07:27:23 [kaz]
q+
07:27:31 [dape]
q+
07:27:35 [kaz]
q?
07:27:35 [Victor]
Maxime_(ML): question: RDFS range for "encodings" defined? If not, one can defined it as Thing or Property/Action/Event.
07:27:49 [Victor]
SK: should be possible.
07:28:23 [mlefranc]
Dave encourages the TD subgroup to adopt a more formal process
07:28:45 [mlefranc]
use cases, requirements, .. prepare a solid ground for the WG
07:28:59 [kaz]
s/Dave encourages/Dave: encourages/
07:29:20 [mlefranc]
part of this work has been started at the beginning of the IG
07:30:31 [Victor]
Dave_(DR): we should adopt a more formal approach here: update use case & requirements if we are about to change the TD. Example: many encodings and protocols across platforms, which ones are we addressing?
07:31:13 [mkovatsc]
q+
07:31:14 [mlefranc]
+1 for Dave's proposal
07:31:31 [Victor]
SK: volunteers to work on that?
07:33:09 [Victor]
Kaz: 2-step procedure? 1. new use cases, 2. new proposal one can compare to the use cases
07:33:47 [mlefranc]
Dave: this should be done in parallel
07:34:08 [Victor]
SK: idea of the PlugFests was to have quick iterations
07:34:08 [mlefranc]
... what is important is to be able to refer back to a decision to justify a feature
07:34:29 [Victor]
DR: this should be done in parallel
07:35:26 [kaz]
s/ 2-step procedure? 1. new use cases, 2. new proposal one can compare to the use cases/we can do the following in parallel: 1. asking for volunteers to update the use case document itself and 2. providing proposals for TD Restructuring (during calls and on emails) along with concrete use cases/
07:35:43 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
07:35:47 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:35:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
07:35:55 [mkovatsc]
q?
07:36:17 [kaz]
Chair: Sebastian
07:36:26 [kaz]
q?
07:36:29 [kaz]
ack kaz
07:36:33 [Victor]
Daniel_(DP): should be possible to keep track of changes/proposals.
07:37:38 [Victor]
Kaz: Wiki page to gather all changes?
07:37:49 [lmedini]
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07:38:15 [Victor]
Matthias_(MK): having Github issues is maybe enough
07:38:17 [kaz]
s/changes/propsals/
07:38:18 [dsr]
Dave thinks very few members of the IG look at the github issues, so that in practice results in only very limited scrutiny.
07:38:57 [kaz]
s/proposals/proposals with concrete use cases and example notations/
07:39:19 [dsr]
q?
07:39:24 [mkovatsc]
ack mkovatsc
07:39:24 [dape]
q-
07:39:28 [dsr]
ack Dar
07:39:30 [kaz]
Kaz: GitHub issues is ok and people are encouraged to add concrete usecases and examples
07:39:34 [dape]
ack dape
07:39:35 [kaz]
q?
07:39:57 [Victor]
SK: what about regularly compiling the issues in a "changelog"?
07:40:08 [Victor]
Back to the queue. Darko?
07:40:30 [dsr]
Dave thinks that it is important to keep requirements distinct, as JSON is just one possible way to represent metadata
07:41:24 [kaz]
q?
07:41:56 [dsr]
q+
07:42:11 [Victor]
Darko_(DA): previous point: relative URIs might be a limitation but they also have benefits, such as "templating" (only the base URI is changing between things)
07:42:18 [mlefranc]
+1 for Dave's comment
07:42:24 [Victor]
SK: next in the queue
07:43:55 [Victor]
DR: we should really separate requirements from proposals. Should engage a discussion in the mailing-list
07:44:45 [DarkoAnicic]
Action: Darko to create an issue: properties, actions, events can be saved in the TD repository separately as templates. A TD can be created based on a concrete set of them and instantiate with a concrete URI. In this settings, the current proposal with href makes sense.
07:44:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - Create an issue: properties, actions, events can be saved in the td repository separately as templates. a td can be created based on a concrete set of them and instantiate with a concrete uri. in this settings, the current proposal with href makes sense. [on Anicic Darko - due 2016-10-12].
07:44:57 [kaz]
ack dsr
07:45:55 [Victor]
SK: Matthias proposed having first issues and then a summary document allows commenting on each topic
07:46:17 [Victor]
DR: one should be able to comment on the documents as well.
07:46:43 [kaz]
kaz: thinking about how to record those two topics separately would make sense
07:46:58 [kaz]
topic: Problem statements 2
07:47:54 [Victor]
SK:explicit vs. implicit knowledge
07:48:29 [mlefranc]
q+
07:49:12 [Victor]
MK: OCF is using other methods than WoT for the same operations, we should be able to specifiy methods in the TD as well.
07:50:02 [Victor]
SK: second point, we should also refine spec. of encodings (define them at the interaction level, use media types)
07:50:41 [mkovatsc]
q+
07:50:49 [Victor]
ML: methodology? Who resolves the issues, who takes action?
07:51:15 [kaz]
q?
07:51:18 [kaz]
ack ml
07:51:55 [Victor]
SK: first proposal in a separate folder, then discussion during the calls until we reach agreement
07:52:06 [Victor]
ML: what about using PRs?
07:53:18 [mlefranc]
ack mlefranc
07:54:23 [dape]
q+
07:55:06 [kaz]
ack mk
07:55:16 [Victor]
MK: precisions about our process: 1. proposal, 2. discussion -> consensus?, 3 integrated in the current practices doc (PR?)
07:55:58 [Victor]
ML: deadline on issues (like 1 month)?
07:56:23 [kaz]
q?
07:56:26 [kaz]
ack da
07:56:29 [Victor]
MK: not sure it is a good idea: some issues have taken longer in the past (e.g. charters)
07:57:53 [Victor]
DP: precisions needed: from 1 issue, 2 were created during the discussion -> 3 issues now open that relate to the same one.
07:58:40 [taki]
q+
07:58:50 [Victor]
MK: one can reference issues from other issues. We should use similar labels (tags?). Common sense needed.
07:59:28 [Victor]
the person who opened the issue is supposed to track what happens and close it when required
08:00:10 [Victor]
Taki_(TK): possible to notify the mailing-list when an issue is open?
08:01:45 [Victor]
SK: you can also "watch" the repository (see Github)
08:02:35 [Victor]
Kaz: we encourage all to do it
08:03:19 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/subscription WoT repository subscription
08:03:56 [kaz]
s/do it/subscribe the "WoT" repository
08:04:46 [Victor]
SK: we should send an e-mail to the group pointing that out
08:06:27 [Victor]
MK: only summaries and clean reports should be sent to the mailing-list
08:06:47 [Victor]
more technical discussions should happen on Github
08:07:50 [Victor]
ML: from the experience of the Spatial Data on the Web WG (that duplicates every issue), the WoT process seems a bit better
08:08:10 [kaz]
topic: Classification
08:08:13 [Victor]
MK: should be raised in our general call today
08:08:25 [kaz]
s/topic: Classification//
08:08:25 [kaz]
topic: Classification
08:09:56 [Victor]
SK: for all issues mentioned here: restructuring/renaming/new vocabulary needed
08:10:11 [Victor]
s/new vocabulary needed/new vocabulary needed?/
08:10:52 [Victor]
slides to be found in the proposal folder (Github)
08:11:37 [kaz]
topic: First TD Restructuring Ideas
08:13:21 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring#user-content-todays-td-basic-structure Today's Basic TD Structure
08:13:36 [lmedini]
Should we plan to provide mappings with other vocabularies, such as Hydra?
08:14:35 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-restructuring#user-content-todays-td-basic-structure#user-content-sample Proposed Basic TD Structure
08:14:48 [kaz]
q?
08:15:03 [Victor]
SK: maybe go back to the original TD structure? With key "interactions" instead of "properties","actions","events"
08:15:03 [kaz]
ack taki
08:15:27 [lmedini]
q+
08:15:28 [kaz]
q?
08:16:07 [Victor]
+ "encodings" and "url" defined for each interaction
08:16:51 [kaz]
lmedini: mappings with other vocabularies, e.g., Hydra?
08:17:07 [kaz]
sk: some discussion on Hydra during TPAC
08:17:15 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html#item02 Hydra breakout during TPAC
08:17:29 [kaz]
i/lmedini:/scribenick: kaz/
08:17:35 [kaz]
scribenick: Victor/
08:17:37 [kaz]
scribenick: Victor
08:17:48 [kaz]
s#scribenick: Victor/#E
08:17:50 [kaz]
s#scribenick: Victor/##
08:18:02 [kaz]
s|s#scribenick: Victor/#E||
08:18:16 [kaz]
q?
08:18:40 [kaz]
victor: have an action item to investigate Hydra
08:18:52 [kaz]
s/scribenick: Victor//
08:18:57 [kaz]
scribenick: Victor
08:19:06 [Victor]
Victor_(VC): there is an action item pending regarding Hydra (I have to take). A separate discussion will take place soon
08:19:10 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:19:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
08:19:30 [AZ]
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08:19:38 [Victor]
VC: I'll create an issue and add a proposal.
08:20:11 [Victor]
SK: (shows an example with the new structure)
08:20:12 [lmedini]
Yes, thanks victor
08:20:36 [DarkoAnicic]
q+
08:20:49 [kaz]
ack lm
08:20:50 [lmedini]
q-
08:21:14 [dape]
q+
08:21:56 [Victor]
key "endpoint" is added. interactions: [ "name", "endpoint": { "urls", "encoding" } ]
08:22:41 [mkovatsc]
q+
08:22:42 [Victor]
DA: how to provide kind of templates then?
08:25:32 [dsr]
We should feel free to go beyond JSON-LD provided we give a means to map to RDF
08:26:00 [mlefranc]
+1 for each of us
08:26:05 [Victor]
MK: it actually depends on the serialization (here JSON-LD). We should maybe focus on the "abstract" model instead
08:26:40 [mlefranc]
q+
08:26:46 [lmedini]
+1 for abstract model.
08:26:47 [mkovatsc]
q-
08:26:50 [dsr]
q+
08:26:51 [kaz]
ack darko
08:27:20 [Victor]
SK: then, how to continue? Which tools should we use to work on an abstract model?
08:29:30 [Victor]
ML: Protégé is a tool the Semantic Web community uses.
08:30:17 [DarkoAnicic]
q+
08:31:04 [Victor]
MK: one point: with using JSON-LD we had the hope to attract Web developers.
08:31:39 [dsr]
q-
08:31:42 [kaz]
q?
08:31:45 [mlefranc]
ack mlefranc
08:31:48 [Victor]
`q+
08:31:49 [kaz]
ack dape
08:31:54 [kaz]
q+ Victor
08:32:04 [kaz]
s/`q+//
08:32:09 [kaz]
q?
08:32:15 [kaz]
ack darko
08:33:42 [Victor]
DA: at the beginning, we created an (OWL) ontology. But it got outdated quickly because of too many changes in the JSON-LD version.
08:34:09 [kaz]
maxime: can help Victor for that purpose
08:35:06 [kaz]
antoine: we can use turtle(?) for discussion and include JSON version examples in the document
08:35:09 [Victor]
Antoine_(AZ): what we should agree on is a rough structure for the TD. We could use Turtle for that purpose within the group. To the world, we should present JSON-LD examples
08:35:15 [kaz]
s/antoine: we can use turtle(?) for discussion and include JSON version examples in the document//
08:36:30 [DarkoAnicic]
Darko: I am also willing to contribute on the Turtle model for TD
08:37:18 [Victor]
SK: agreement on working at a more abstract level?
08:37:47 [Victor]
Combining Turtle (internally) and JSON-LD (externally)?
08:38:28 [Victor]
action items to turn into issues on Github!
08:38:29 [trackbot]
Error finding 'items'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/track/users>.
08:39:13 [kaz]
[ adjourned ]
08:39:19 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:39:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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rrsagent, stop