16:06:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:06:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-dnt-irc
16:06:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:06:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
16:06:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
16:06:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
16:06:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:06:16 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2016
16:06:27 <npdoty> present+ npdoty, wseltzer, rvaneijk, dsinger
16:06:35 <wileys> wileys has joined #dnt
16:06:48 <npdoty> present+ moneill2
16:07:13 <Craig> Craig has joined #dnt
16:07:14 <wseltzer> present+ vincent
16:07:14 <npdoty> present+ vincent
16:07:38 <wseltzer> present+ jeff
16:07:40 <npdoty> present+ wileys, walter
16:07:54 <wseltzer> zakim, who is here?
16:07:54 <Zakim> Present: npdoty, wseltzer, rvaneijk, dsinger, moneill2, vincent, jeff, wileys, walter
16:07:55 <npdoty> present+ matthias_matthiesen
16:07:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see Craig, wileys, Zakim, RRSAgent, pde, dsinger, moneill2, vincent_, jeff, npdoty, rvaneijk, WalterTamboer, hadleybeeman, mkwst, adrianba, walter, wseltzer, trackbot
16:07:57 <wileys> 11 people in the WebEx (2 are call-in users)
16:07:58 <wseltzer> present+ aleecia
16:08:09 <dsinger> present+ dsinger
16:08:31 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
16:08:40 <walter> So is Shane
16:09:00 <wseltzer> present+ schunter
16:10:18 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
16:10:21 <wseltzer> schunter: Reports out from TPAC, call with EFF, Recharter
16:10:24 <npdoty> Topic: TPAC report
16:10:44 <npdoty> schunter: breakout session in Lisbon, 20 or so organizations in the room
16:11:25 <npdoty> ... Mike gave a quick tutorial on his implementation; a presentation on regulatory changes with reference to DNT and technology for managing consent
16:11:56 <npdoty> ... during discussion, companies expressing new interest, DT interested in working with a regulator on a reference implementation
16:12:35 <npdoty> wileys: sense in the room: how interested were people? interest in implementations? or only passive?
16:13:25 <npdoty> schunter: one new implementer sounded committed, one implementer sounded just interested
16:13:38 <npdoty> ... wanted feedback from regulator
16:13:48 <walter> wileys: do realise that Deutsche Telekom is the largest telco in Europe
16:13:51 <at> at has joined #dnt
16:14:25 <moneill2> q+
16:14:32 <npdoty> wileys: if only a test, sounds like not exploring all the features
16:14:34 <rvaneijk> DT expressed a genuine full TPE implementation
16:14:35 <npdoty> ack moneill
16:14:53 <npdoty> moneill2: people were surprised regarding GDPR, didn't realize the situation
16:14:57 <walter> Vincent's presentation is very useful BTW
16:15:03 <wileys> Walter - Yes, Yahoo works with DT
16:15:10 <vincent_> I think they'll have interest in implementing the excpetions to get consent
16:15:14 <npdoty> ... interest in working with a DPA in Europe
16:15:56 <npdoty> wileys: I wouldn't expect a lot of implementations in the near-term
16:16:14 <schunter> q?
16:16:15 <npdoty> moneill2: some implementations already; what we need is feedback from the regulators
16:16:18 <vincent_> so i don't know if they'd go for a full implementation, but they would likely go for the exceptions
16:16:36 <wseltzer> q+
16:16:58 <npdoty> schunter: could have sufficient number of implementations already, but more important would be confidence in use
16:17:02 <wileys> Fair - good to have someone test exceptions in production at scale
16:17:06 <wseltzer> q-
16:17:19 <npdoty> ... about us having confidence that the current TPE could fit this use case
16:17:46 <npdoty> ... the Compliance spec not needed in this scenario, implementer would just use the law as Compliance
16:18:05 <npdoty> aleecia: we would get feedback during the process of implementation, not the end
16:18:33 <npdoty> wileys: activity would be in 2017, so do we need re-chartering now
16:18:47 <npdoty> aleecia: agree that not much should be expected before January
16:18:49 <dsinger> q+ to talk about re-chartering
16:19:26 <npdoty> schunter: expect changes/feedback over the summer (2017?) and release in September
16:19:27 <schunter> ack dsi
16:19:27 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to talk about re-chartering
16:19:43 <wseltzer> +1
16:19:52 <npdoty> dsinger: would want a charter approved by the end of the year, because of time needed for approval
16:20:01 <npdoty> schunter: +1, will talk charter in the minute
16:20:11 <npdoty> ... do this experimentation on the technology, and if it's viable, then we push it out
16:20:17 <dsinger> q+ to talk about TCS
16:20:18 <npdoty> ... pause TCS for now, not hearing implementation traction
16:20:26 <npdoty> ack dsinger
16:20:26 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to talk about TCS
16:20:28 <wileys> +1
16:20:32 <wileys> +q
16:20:49 <npdoty> dsinger: need the TCS to sit in CR. have a problem in the browser-side explaining what DNT is, if the compliance could be anything
16:21:25 <npdoty> ... could be different from TCS exactly -- e.g. could be stronger -- but if we have nothing, it's very hard to explain what is being done
16:21:31 <npdoty> ack wileys
16:21:32 <schunter> ack wil
16:21:54 <walter> q+
16:22:01 <npdoty> wileys: hearing momentum for the EU, which has the law rather than the TCS (Compliance spec), up to individual companies and courts to figure out
16:22:27 <npdoty> ... wouldn't want to call it a floor, even
16:22:28 <schunter> IMHO the definition of tracking / not tracking is key and may be sufficient and must not be redefined by TCS.
16:22:31 <dsinger> kinda agree with Shane; I think the best is to leave the TCS in CR and wait and see.  neither promote it to Rec nor withdraw it.  We need to struggle with the ‘floor’ issue…
16:22:34 <jeff> q+
16:22:41 <schunter> +1
16:22:47 <vincent_> GDPR will start to be applied in 2018, in the meantime it would be useful to have a baseline
16:22:48 <schunter> (leaving the TCS in CR)
16:22:54 <npdoty> ... would be embarrassing if someone came out with a compliance implementation that was weaker than TCS
16:23:03 <npdoty> ... up to the implementer what they reference in terms of compliance
16:23:42 <npdoty> ... -1 on TCS as floor, because it would be subjective, or difficult to compare them
16:23:56 <schunter> q?
16:24:09 <npdoty> ... TCS could be there as a reference point, but TPE already allows pointing to different compliance
16:24:27 <jeff> q-
16:24:34 <npdoty> schunter: agree TCS not a priority, concern about how to do it to take on later
16:25:30 <npdoty> walter: supportive of having a baseline. not having a compliance spec at all would have practical issues
16:26:17 <npdoty> ... this group started with the expectation of not having a particular regulatory rule
16:26:32 <schunter> FCC consumer deception may play a role: If a site claims "no tracking" while doing something deceptive, it may get the FCC activated.
16:26:34 <npdoty> ... comparisons could be done by courts and regulators, not needed to be done by tpwg
16:26:38 <schunter> ack wal
16:27:03 <npdoty> ... although it may not be sufficient for EU purposes
16:27:33 <npdoty> present+ craig
16:27:35 <dsinger> the question revolves around how we make a reasonable, consistent, explanation to users, so that their consent is, ahem, informed
16:27:43 <npdoty> schunter: postpone this discussion for later
16:27:50 <npdoty> schunter: will circulate draft charter later
16:27:59 <npdoty> Topic: Chartering
16:28:14 <npdoty> schunter: don't like us being without a charter, need to propose something by the end of the month
16:28:15 <walter> jeff: yes, at the same time an alternative TCS that says: whatever you say, we will track you anyway would be deceptive
16:28:30 <npdoty> ... W3C eager for Process compliance
16:28:40 <npdoty> ... so my goal would be to circulate a draft in the next week
16:28:46 <jeff> Walter, I agree with you - but we already allowed that at the last round.  Unless we want to reopen it.
16:28:47 <wseltzer> s/jeff: yes/jeff, yes/
16:28:51 <npdoty> moneill2: discuss charter on the list and in next call? -- yes.
16:29:02 <wseltzer> q+
16:29:13 <npdoty> ack wseltzer
16:29:39 <npdoty> wseltzer: Process to help the group focus on its work, concrete proposals for meeting deadlines we can make the group more likely to succeed
16:29:41 <npdoty> ... want to avoid limbo
16:29:55 <npdoty> ... particularly want to have a timeline
16:30:06 <npdoty> Topic: report from eff call
16:30:37 <npdoty> schunter: EFF has its own compliance policy, its own server response
16:30:44 <npdoty> ... would be a shame to have this community divided
16:30:54 <npdoty> ... can we use the standardized technology?
16:31:09 <walter> some of the issues I raised will be encountered by EFF as well
16:31:15 <npdoty> ... sounded positive on that point, as long as that doesn't require endorsing a particular Compliance spec
16:31:35 <npdoty> ... initial exploration, EFF will now talk with their own implementers
16:31:43 <npdoty> ... will get back to us
16:31:45 <npdoty> q+
16:32:03 <npdoty> aleecia: +1
16:32:08 <schunter> ack np
16:32:44 <moneill2> q+
16:32:46 <npdoty> npdoty: same as previous issues I had raised before, well-known location, etc.
16:32:48 <npdoty> schunter: yes
16:33:33 <npdoty> schunter: unbundling of technology and compliance happened, policy flexibility should allow using the technology
16:34:28 <walter> +1
16:34:38 <npdoty> talk again next week? or in two weeks?
16:34:43 <vincent_> agree, can't attend next week either
16:35:09 <npdoty> wileys: would like some heads up regarding meetings
16:35:26 <npdoty> schunter: could talk on the phone in two weeks (19 October), but start charter discussion on email
16:35:40 <npdoty> biweekly meetings and cancel if not needed
16:36:40 <wileys> Oops - 9am to 10am
16:36:42 <wileys> PT
16:36:43 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
16:36:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:36:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been npdoty, wseltzer, rvaneijk, dsinger, moneill2, vincent, jeff, wileys, walter, matthias_matthiesen, aleecia, schunter, craig
16:36:51 <wileys> My PT and am got mixed :-(
16:36:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/05-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
16:36:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:36:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items