14:57:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:57:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-mobile-a11y-irc
14:57:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:57:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:57:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:57:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:55 <trackbot> Date: 29 September 2016
14:58:04 <Kathy> zakim, this will be 6283
14:58:04 <Zakim> ok, Kathy
14:58:18 <Kathy> rrsagent, make log world
14:58:26 <Kathy> meeting: Mobile A11Y TF
14:58:38 <Kathy> chair: Kathy
15:01:14 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:06 <Kathy> regrets: Kim, Jeanne, Patrick, Henny, Chris
15:02:17 <Kathy> Present+ Kathy
15:02:49 <Alan_Smith> Present+ Alan
15:03:49 <Detlev> Present+ Detlev
15:04:59 <Jatin> Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:25 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:29 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
15:05:38 <Jatin> present+ Jatin
15:05:55 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:12:22 <Detlev> sounds great!
15:12:45 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
15:13:09 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements
15:13:22 <jon_avila> kw: were going to talk about m4 and m10 that patrick had finished more than others -- but since he can't make the call we will talk David's new one
15:13:28 <Kathy> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/2
15:13:46 <jon_avila> kw: related to page titles -- good to review in this meeting and finalize David's
15:14:38 <david__> david__ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:15:22 <jon_avila> dm: old problem that we didn't have a solution to and now we do
15:15:34 <jon_avila> dm: would be change of content -- different from change in context
15:15:52 <jon_avila> dm: want to notify users that there is a change
15:16:26 <jon_avila> dm: need to notify blind users that changes occurred
15:16:54 <jon_avila> dm: exceptions - if change immediately follows activating element
15:17:18 <jon_avila> dm: exception for a programmatic relatinoshnip
15:17:55 <Detlev> q+
15:18:39 <jon_avila> dm: borrowed a lot of language from current WCAG
15:19:01 <jon_avila> dm: whether or not triggered by the user.
15:19:50 <jon_avila> ja: shouldn't apply when page is actually refreshed
15:20:31 <marcjohlic> q+
15:21:24 <Detlev> Jon: can the scope be extended to users who are not blind (cognitive, low vision)?
15:21:34 <jon_avila> ja: would like this apply in way to help users with low vision and users with cognitive disabilities
15:22:01 <jon_avila> dm: coga has one that is similar and we could combine after this gets to the WG
15:22:43 <Detlev> q+
15:23:00 <jon_avila> dm: coga one calls for rapid feedback that indicates audio cues must be cues
15:23:13 <jon_avila> dm: coga has post user action confirmation
15:23:58 <Detlev> jon: SC ON input allows that users are notified beforehand
15:24:41 <Detlev> Jon: exception "unless the user has been advised...
15:26:52 <jon_avila> alan: gave example of filter that might reset fields above current control
15:27:12 <jon_avila> q?
15:27:45 <marcjohlic> ack Detlev
15:27:49 <Kathy> q+
15:28:08 <jon_avila> detlev: in case of reset button there is an expectation.  We need to take into context the element -- unnecessary to have a description of what the reset button does
15:28:48 <jon_avila> detlev: wasn't sure if new SC applies to content changes that are user interactive or both?
15:28:52 <jon_avila> both
15:29:26 <jon_avila> detlev: sees them as different -- ARIA vs. user intiated are different as user has some expectation that something will happen.  Maybe they should be different?
15:31:10 <jon_avila> dm: have an exception for controls that follow in the programmatic reading order.  Could be clear that this is the order that a screen reader follows such as if you move the focus.
15:32:29 <Kathy> q-
15:33:25 <jon_avila> dm: adding focus managed by webpage
15:33:26 <jon_avila> q?
15:34:29 <jon_avila> mj: going back to exception #2 -- way I read it is provide programmatic notification -- which seems like it is already covered in the title of the best practices
15:35:44 <jon_avila> ja: may be difference between programmatic notification and programmatic relatinoship such as ARIA live versus aria-cotnrols
15:36:27 <jon_avila> q?
15:37:52 <Kathy> ack marc
15:37:58 <Kathy> q+
15:40:34 <jon_avila> kw: thinking about a couple of scenarios -- not sure if they fall under this.  See with usability studies such as loading indicator -- maybe short or long depending on the users connection
15:40:44 <jon_avila> kw: not just knowing something is loading but that something finished loading
15:40:52 <david__> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/3
15:41:30 <jon_avila> dm: another proposed SC
15:41:44 <jon_avila> kw: got some comments about page title and mobile specifically
15:42:05 <jon_avila> kw: mobile apps dynamically change content and page title doesn't update and difficult to know what the page content is\
15:42:37 <jon_avila> kw: 2.4.2 might be missing - but doesn't say that it has to be unique or specific to the content on the page.
15:43:17 <jon_avila> dm: doesn't require page title change but helps with change
15:43:20 <jon_avila> q?
15:44:18 <jon_avila> dm: topic or purpose is a very broad statement
15:45:29 <Detlev> Jon: title is preferable because users are sure to become aware of changes
15:46:31 <jon_avila> kw: titles aren't as readily available on mobile
15:46:44 <jon_avila> dm: is this close enough to submit from this group?
15:48:13 <jon_avila> dm: what about a baseball game -- if there were too many updates it might be unusable
15:48:58 <jon_avila> detlev: commenting on page loading, etc.
15:49:06 <jon_avila> q?
15:50:45 <jon_avila> kw: same thing with timed tests with count down
15:51:05 <jon_avila> ja: need to find a way to allow for some countdown or animation or other content, etc.
15:51:11 <Kathy> q-
15:51:17 <jon_avila> dm: may be able to characterize exceptions into groups
15:51:51 <Detlev> q+
15:52:14 <jon_avila> dm: may need to create a threshold number
15:52:38 <jon_avila> kw: maybe put placeholder in for now
15:52:56 <jon_avila> dm: want to be testable in placeholder
15:53:19 <jon_avila> kw: unless notification would significantly interupt
15:54:44 <Detlev> q-
15:55:02 <Detlev> q+
15:55:21 <jon_avila> dm; notifications are more than x per minutes
15:56:08 <jon_avila> detlev: couldn't make sense that this would hold up in all context such as games -- so times you may want the notifications and other you will not
15:57:13 <jon_avila> dm: similar objections and use cases that were outliers
15:57:32 <jon_avila> dm: not forbudding --- authors can have mroe
15:58:08 <jon_avila> q?
15:58:21 <Detlev> q-
15:58:28 <jon_avila> dm: how do you know what x per minute is?
15:59:28 <jon_avila> ja: does this allow people to do nothing if it occurs to frequently or is variable?
16:00:49 <jon_avila> kw: take a look at two SC that were in the agenda -- would like to finalize them next.  We need to keep finalize them.
16:01:38 <jon_avila> dm: do we want to take a resolution on this proposed SC?
16:01:53 <jon_avila> kw: can unless there is an objection.
16:02:03 <jon_avila> dm: that we will take this over and submit as MATF with adjustments
16:02:08 <jon_avila> kw: any objections?
16:02:11 <Alan_Smith> Alan +
16:02:12 <jon_avila> kw: hearing none
16:02:41 <jon_avila> RESOLUTION: will accept M15 Programmatic Notifications and submit to working group
16:03:05 <jon_avila> dm: notification of busy signal we will take up on later date.
16:04:21 <jon_avila> rrsagent make minutes
16:05:44 <jon_avila> rrsagent end call
16:05:57 <jon_avila> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
16:06:11 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:06:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, Alan, Detlev, jon_avila, Jatin
16:06:33 <jon_avila> present+marcjohlic
16:06:48 <jon_avila> present+david__
16:06:56 <jon_avila> trackbot, end meeting
16:06:56 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:06:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, Alan, Detlev, jon_avila, Jatin, marcjohlic, david__
16:07:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-mobile-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
16:07:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:07:05 <RRSAgent> I see no action items