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08:10:21 <phila> scribe: phila
08:10:24 <phila> scribeNick: phila
08:10:32 <phila> Topic: Tour de table
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08:10:54 <phila> present+ betehess
08:11:19 <phila> betehess: We've released a lot of schema.org org, planning to release more.
08:11:30 <phila> ... have a few things we'd like to see in schema.org
08:11:43 <phila> danbri: what about W3C infrastructure etc.
08:12:01 <phila> betehess: I don't know what it means to operate with W3C in this case.
08:12:59 <phila> danbri: It seemed a shame not to get together. We used to have very energetic hacky meetings.
08:13:17 <phila> ... Over time SWIG stopped meeting at TPAC... fizzled out into a bunch of mailing lists.
08:13:50 <phila> ... schema.org has had a weird relationship with W3C. We use a W3C mailing list, now a CG
08:14:16 <phila> ... series of conversations with W3C what it might do in this space.
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08:14:41 <fsasaki> present+ felix(for-morning-session)
08:14:47 <phila> ... schema.org has 400 open issues. I'd really like to fix some of those if we can.
08:15:01 <phila> ... Maybe given who's here we should talk about process issues.
08:15:09 <phila> jtandy: Introduces self.
08:15:41 <phila> ... I want to surface my data on the web. If it's not in a search engine, it's not really on the Web. In my/geospatial community, people publish through Web services (WFS etc.)
08:15:56 <phila> ... These aren't indexed. I'd like that data to be accessed.
08:16:02 <phila> ... There are shortfalls in scjema.org
08:16:20 <phila> ... Also want to understand what users have to do...
08:16:40 <phila> ... I'm not doing it to create structured data on the web.
08:17:04 <phila> ... I personally don't believe we're in a situation where machines can automagically infer things found on the Web.
08:17:13 <phila> ... It's about consistent naming etc.
08:17:26 <phila> s/scjema.org/schema.org/
08:17:52 <phila> jtandy: I've worked in the WMO to publish a lot of their controlled vocabulary. I've been using SKOS-based registry
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08:19:35 <phila> -> http://codes.wmo.int WMO Codes Registry
08:20:20 <phila> jtandy: I have a weather schema, can we try and unpack the black art of data description, data feeds
08:21:16 <Ralph> PhilA: I'm interested particularly in what W3C should do to be better at [vocab support]
08:21:52 <Ralph> ... in hindsight it was a bad decision for W3C to not get involved in supporting big vocabulary development
08:21:58 <jtandy> [ weather schema open issue: https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/362 ]
08:22:01 <Ralph> ... the REC Track process doesn't suite many vocabs
08:22:26 <Ralph> ... there's lack of understanding of the difference between the specification and the namespace document
08:22:55 <Ralph> ... we had discussions this week on some namespace questions
08:23:02 <phila> fsasaki: I've been in multilingual area at W3C. I'm a fellow of DFKI language tech centre
08:23:10 <phila> ... I want to use schema.org for cross lingual access
08:24:54 <Ralph> PhilA: Doug Schepers has a demo consisting of an SVG document containing structured data
08:24:55 <fsasaki> (and for using structured data that is off the web for generation schema.org on the web)
08:25:18 <phila> ... In weather reports, these are often auto-generated from data that is not on the Web. What's generated is just text. The text is already structured
08:25:29 <Ralph> ... the structured data allows for a screen reader to provide an incredibly rich description of the data in the file
08:25:46 <phila> phila: Talks about Doug Sheppers' accessibility SVG demo
08:26:25 <phila> Ralph: I'd like to see how the CG can/is working with other bits of W3C. If there are un met needs in terms of process. We'd like to meet those unmet needs.
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08:26:44 <phila> ... I think the schema.org experience can be replicated for others. Tooling, process etc.
08:27:01 <phila> ... I'd like top understand what we can do.
08:27:26 <phila> Francesco: Working in Florence research institute. Want to know more about how schema.org works
08:27:56 <phila> ... Where I work, about 18 months ago we were thinking of adopting schema.org to integrate all the research data in our various databases.
08:28:38 <phila> danbri: Do you find yourself developing schemas?
08:28:59 <phila> Francesco: No. We couldn't find a lot of support and couldn't see the benefit of doing this on our site.
08:29:08 <phila> ... I'm here as a user more than a contributor.
08:29:12 <jtandy> q+ to ask what "fully compliant" means
08:29:46 <phila> danbri: schema.org grew quickly because for some people there were clear benefits. It may be being used deep within Google as well.
08:30:47 <phila> ... In the context of W3C, one of our roles ... if you publish it, we think people on your side should be able to use it. If a widget in your browser tells you about what's there you'd see problems.
08:31:23 <phila> Francesco: People are interested in schema.org because it's an SEO booster. But what are the restful architecture advantages
08:31:35 <phila> ... We're still very interested.
08:32:03 <phila> Danbri: We've struggled to get people to adopt this for 15 years, we have components...
08:32:37 <phila> ericP: How do you optimise the balance between chaos and process to make sure that the output is useful.
08:33:01 <phila> ... The more process, the more restrictions, but the less you get the more chaos you have.
08:33:22 <phila> ... There are two different poles and people tend to cluster around one or the other.
08:34:27 <phila> fabgandon: I'm a leader of a research team at INRIA, working since 1999. So as part of that we have a stable namespace server. We publish all those with LD principles.
08:34:37 <phila> ... Multilingual schemas
08:35:25 <phila> ... Should multilingualism be important. We annotate, we publish in LOV. We publish the French chapter of dbpedia. Latest this is the whole history of the French dbpedia released as LD.
08:35:37 <phila> ... We are interested in every step of the lifecycle.
08:35:51 <phila> danbri: Who do you feel about W3C's role? What should happen?
08:36:22 <phila> fabgandon: My initial perception is that W3C shouldn't be involved in vocabs not related to the Web. LDP clearly is, for example.
08:36:28 <phila> danbri: Hosting of namespaces?
08:36:41 <phila> fabgandon: Hmm... I don't want it to be a bottleneck.
08:36:51 <phila> .. Can be  tricky in terms of governenance.
08:37:14 <phila> ericP : You mean process bottleneck or tech
08:37:28 <phila> fabgandon: I wouldn't want all the namespaces hosted at one place.
08:37:57 <phila> ack j
08:37:57 <Zakim> jtandy, you wanted to ask what "fully compliant" means
08:38:37 <phila> jtandy: When I look at schema.org, I don't imagine making my websites fully compliant. Is it a little smattering? Is it a full thing?
08:38:49 <phila> ack r
08:38:50 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on decentralized namespaces
08:39:12 <phila> q+ Ralph to comment on decentralized namespace
08:39:32 <phila> Francesco: Standards help with accessibility, integration etc.
08:39:41 <betehess> q+
08:39:54 <phila> ... But it's usefeul to have under control, what's the structured data in a university?
08:40:12 <phila> q+ to talk about Share-PSI experience
08:40:36 <phila> ack r
08:40:36 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on decentralized namespace
08:40:57 <phila> Ralph: Phil clairifed one part of Fabien's point - we're not seeking to centralise namepsaces
08:41:26 <phila> Ralph: Recent experience suggests that developers don't find the proliferation of namespaces helpful
08:41:36 <phila> ... So the attraction of schema.org is that it's one place.
08:42:22 <phila> fabgandon: If the issue is namespaces. OGP didn't want the webmasters to have to add 10 namespaces to their pages
08:42:43 <jtandy> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdfa-context/rdfa-1.1
08:43:07 <phila> Ralph: The context file in JSON-LD is meant to help that.
08:43:33 <phila> danbri: A lot of this dates back to 1997 when DC held their first workshop.
08:43:51 <phila> ... They  saw themselves as one of a future many metadat schemas.
08:45:02 <phila> ... When we did RDFS, we didn't need people to separate out different aspects. We haven't got a social process to match the distributed nature.
08:45:23 <phila> ... JSON-LD context files are meant to be easy for webmasters.
08:45:37 <phila> q?
08:45:41 <phila> ack b
08:46:02 <jtandy> q+ to ask how to get schema.org can play nicely with other vocabs
08:46:17 <phila> betehess: If you want to put schema.org on your website you have to think about what you're trying to do.
08:46:19 <phila> q-
08:46:58 <phila> betehess: It's important to bear in mind validation. You have to use Google's tools, follow their assumptions etc.
08:47:12 <phila> q+ to talk about share-psi experience.
08:47:33 <fabgandon> q+ eric
08:47:45 <phila> betehess: Adoption is always a problem. There are many people know nothing about Sem Web so schema.org helps in that education.
08:48:06 <phila> ... The use of JSON-LD by Google has got several new people looking at JSON-LD
08:48:28 <phila> ... They know JSON, so they're already comfortable.
08:48:44 <fabgandon> q?
08:48:46 <phila> ... [Something about OG]
08:49:16 <phila> ... The perception of og is ... FB only uses a fraction of it.
08:49:39 <fabgandon> present+ FabienGandon
08:49:48 <phila> danbri: People don't use schema.org because it looks good but because it's useful.
08:49:57 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:49:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
08:50:12 <phila> betehess: It's becoming a way for our website to talk to others.
08:50:36 <phila> danbri: So people are consuming your schema.org?
08:50:39 <phila> betehess: Yes
08:50:50 <phila> danbri: That would be good to document.
08:51:26 <phila> ... It's an unfortunate pressure on schema.org that people see it as a Google-only thing. Bing, Yandex and Yahoo are there too.
08:51:40 <phila> q?
08:51:48 <phila> q-
08:51:52 <fabgandon> ack j
08:51:52 <Zakim> jtandy, you wanted to ask how to get schema.org can play nicely with other vocabs
08:51:55 <betehess> q+ dan
08:52:13 <phila> jtandy: How do you get schema.org to play nicely with other vocabs
08:52:51 <phila> jtandy: The big one people want to use... we're happy making SKOS concept schemes - it might be useful to create a SKOS-like thing in schema.org
08:54:03 <phila> danbri: We did SKOS on the back of SWAD Europe, it had much the same purpose as schema.org. Straurctured data for people who don't think in triples
08:54:20 <phila> ... What we've done well in RDF is establish SKOS as widely deployed
08:55:15 <phila> ... In schema.org we have a thing on job postings. The definition includes links to various other things including some spreadsheets that look a lot like SKOS.
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08:56:02 <fabgandon> q?
08:56:07 <fabgandon> ack e
08:56:11 <phila> ... It would be good if that data were exposed in a more accessibile way. schema.org od not the place to define heirarchy of restaurent cuisines.
08:56:40 <phila> ericP: We don't want to be a central point of evil, let alone a central point of failure.
08:57:10 <phila> ... W3C has various failure avoidance mechanisms. We're a pretty safe place to do styuff.
08:57:32 <phila> ... If you want a central place, we're a reasonably good place. But there's no complacency
08:58:06 <phila> ... Typical question - is it rdf:Class or rdfs:Class? The more we have a single namespace the better.
08:58:10 <fabgandon> ack dan
08:58:24 <phila> ... We can also improve tooling to help of course.
08:59:09 <phila> ericP: Working on FHIR, people like schema.org so maybe we can share health records using schema.org markup
08:59:20 <phila> ... Few people want to chare health records online
08:59:27 <phila> ... issues around namespaces
08:59:28 <phila> q?
09:00:31 <phila> danbri: Much as I love the RDF community... it's just a name for a technology... Semantic Web rebranding brought in some new people... then we had anotehr rebranding for a subset.
09:00:42 <phila> ... So we ended up with two communities at two poles.
09:01:43 <phila> ... Both ends naive. LD thought you could find production grade data on the open webn.
09:02:06 <phila> ... We're never going to get to the stage where you just query a SPARQL endpoint and use it.
09:02:44 <phila> [Discussion of clean data, DBPedia, pharma resources]
09:03:15 <phila> danbri: BBC teams found DBPedia useful but it drifts and can break. You need to keep track
09:03:21 <phila> q?
09:03:40 <phila> [Demo from Felix]
09:04:23 <fsasaki> http://fsasaki.github.io/stuff/tekom2016/
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09:08:15 <newton> present+ newton
09:15:55 <betehess> q+ Dan
09:16:07 <fabgandon> q+ eric
09:16:27 <fabgandon> ack e
09:16:51 <phila> [Discussion]
09:17:08 <phila> fsasaki: Take a term like snow in EN, schnee in DE
09:17:14 <phila> ... They all have a certain meaning
09:17:25 <phila> ... many cultures have lots of meaning for a term
09:17:35 <phila> ... At a high level they refer to the same concept of snow
09:17:45 <phila> ... want a language-agnostic level
09:18:02 <phila> ... Concept, meaning, expression is the heirarchy
09:18:21 <phila> danbri: Big discussion with the i18n group about RDF in the old days
09:18:33 <phila> ... Where is the RDF world now with JSON?
09:18:56 <phila> ... I just joined the WPWG to try and clean up mirodata
09:19:15 <betehess> s/mirodata/microdata/
09:19:26 <phila> fsasaki: Whatever you do you're screwed. You have the option of a separate field for a string and its language
09:20:03 <phila> ... Currently discussing Activity Streams, Web Annotations... OK, some people say do the separate field solution. Better in JSON-LD. All have their own ways to inpterpret
09:20:27 <phila> ... Spans with language info don't work in JSON
09:20:48 <phila> ... People want some control characters inside the string. It's a no-go
09:20:59 <phila> ... Another thing is directionality
09:21:15 <phila> q?
09:21:19 <phila> ack d
09:21:33 <phila> fsasaki: No one is happy...
09:21:39 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:21:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
09:22:06 <phila> danbri: Microdata is OK but when you go to JSON-LD it breaks
09:22:47 <phila> fsasaki: The micropub spec builds on microformats which is i18n bad
09:23:00 <betehess> q?
09:23:00 <jtandy> q?
09:23:39 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:23:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
09:24:34 <fsasaki> [background on the json / i18n metadata issue, see this document: http://w3c.github.io/i18n-discuss/notes/json-bidi.html ]
09:28:28 <phila> present+ newton
09:28:42 <phila> newton: Would like to talk about translations
09:31:26 <phila> ??: Introduces topic of CMS adding structured data automatically. Not all concepts are available in schema.org.
09:31:47 <phila> ... Course and Course Instance are in pending
09:31:53 <phila> danbri: Do you like the definitions?
09:32:21 <phila> ??: Yes. It makes sense. It's a kind of thinking. We also use the concept of CreativeWork
09:33:01 <phila> ... A year ago there was a request for an education CG, but her way to think is more commercial. We're more concerned with organisational side of universities.
09:33:29 <phila> danbri: That led to a separate CG looking at courses etc. We think it's finished and I expect it to be in the next release.
09:33:46 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:33:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
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10:18:08 <jtandy> scribe: Jeremy Tandy
10:18:16 <jtandy> scribenick: jtandy
10:18:21 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:18:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
10:18:29 <jtandy> betehess: there are a number of issues around tooling
10:18:33 <phila> chair: DanBri
10:18:39 <jtandy> ... when putting the data out there
10:18:45 <jtandy> ... we need to validate
10:18:55 <jtandy> ... we need tools to do the validation
10:19:03 <phila> meeting: Semantic Web Structured Data Schemas at TPAC
10:19:05 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:19:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
10:19:07 <jtandy> ... samething with facebook validator
10:19:17 <jtandy> ... there was no good way of doing this
10:19:26 <jtandy> ... so we started developing our own tools
10:19:35 <jtandy> ... using schema [schema.org] validation
10:19:57 <jtandy> ... it's all done "manually" - which is to say that we write bespoke code to do this
10:20:18 <jtandy> ... just like the W3C validator, the tool needs to tell you what's wrong
10:20:46 <jtandy> betehess: if the community was to use SHACL or [SHEX?]
10:21:06 <jtandy> ... to describe the rules, then [we wouldn't need to start from scratch]
10:21:39 <jtandy> danbri: we phrased this in terms of validation - but also we need to think about meeting the needs of particular consumers
10:22:04 <jtandy> betehess: agrees - [different outcomes require use of different schema.org terms]
10:22:21 <jtandy> phila: I also see this when I was doing some SEO stuff
10:22:43 <jtandy> ... all was "CreativeWork" - but I wanted subtypes
10:23:01 <jtandy> ... (but I was too tired to figure that out at 3AM)
10:23:14 <jtandy> ... even in your own system, you [implicitly] use profiles
10:23:35 <jtandy> danbri: the structured data testing tool from Google does several things
10:23:42 <jtandy> ... it will check synta
10:23:48 <jtandy> s/synta/syntax/
10:24:08 <jtandy> ... then it will look up the latest version of schema.org and try to validate against that
10:24:40 <jtandy> ... errors are reported like "red ink on the page"
10:24:46 <jtandy> ... it's intimidating
10:25:02 <jtandy> ... we need to move toward saying that "you've passed the basic tests"
10:25:08 <jtandy> ... we have triples coming through
10:25:25 <jtandy> ... even if they won't fit into Google tool x & y
10:25:36 <jtandy> phila: that's what SHACL is for -
10:26:07 <jtandy> ericP: another question is how do I find what systems / applications can consume this data
10:26:51 <jtandy> ... if you're already marking your data up, it would be useful to say what systems / components you know can use the data
10:27:17 <jtandy> betehess: [@@]
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10:27:44 <jtandy> ericP: you wouldn't add extra triples [to describe]
10:28:15 <jtandy> betehess: but we don't really know how people are using data
10:28:24 <jtandy> phila: and we never will know
10:29:19 <jtandy> phila: I tend only to use microdata because that's the only format universally used
10:29:36 <jtandy> betehess: things have moved on
10:29:54 <jtandy> danbri: yandex has json validator ... most read RDFa now
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10:30:20 <jtandy> ... but I wrote a page that describes how Google uses the structured data
10:31:11 <jtandy> phila: it would be useful to provide SHACL rules that describe the profiles used by each of the services (Bing, Yandex, Google search) and other tools
10:31:18 <jtandy> ...
10:31:42 <jtandy> danbri: we do something close to SHACL when we submit to the schema.org repo
10:32:20 <jtandy> ... mostly it's SPARQL queries - these aim to ensure that what's in the repo is well structured
10:32:51 <jtandy> ... some of these tests are about policies for managing terms; e.g. inverse properties being redundantly asserted
10:33:37 <jtandy> phila: on that sanity checking, how much effort would it be to add "stable", "testing" etc. categories to each term in schema.org?
10:34:04 <jtandy> ... marking terms as "stable" would give confidence to user
10:34:45 <jtandy> danbri: this is pretty much doable ... testing and [@@] are "pending" ... stable is stable ... everything else is on the spectrum
10:35:16 <jtandy> betehess: it's useful to see the usage numbers for each term- the more people that use, the more stable the term
10:35:33 <jtandy> phila: so long as the 3M websites used the term correctly
10:36:34 <jtandy> danbri: talks about some new features being prepped for US election; it's only on a few sites
10:36:56 <jtandy> ... we want to avoid objective rules like "its only stable if it's on a 1000+ sites"
10:37:02 <jtandy> ... we don't delete things
10:37:36 <jtandy> ... we've just introduced the schema.org "attic" which is where we can hide stuff we don't use anymore
10:37:53 <jtandy> ... we're reticent to say that we won't ever change things any more
10:38:13 <jtandy> danbri: [talks about changes to schema:Person]
10:38:43 <jtandy> danbri: it would be useful to collect evidence of the use of terms in formal settings
10:39:08 <jtandy> phila: we're looking for mechanisms to say "this term is stable"
10:39:35 <jtandy> ... ericp was suggesting that if a term is used in a REC it must be stable
10:40:13 <jtandy> ... this is quite a good idea
10:40:20 <phila> RESOLUTION: This is not a formal resolution but it creates a link in the page:
10:41:04 <phila> If we let schema.org know that a standard references a term, that term can refer back to the standard. That makes it harder/less likely that schema.org will make changes
10:41:38 <jtandy> [and this is a way of asserting the stability of a term]
10:42:56 <jtandy> fabien: you might want to amend the definitions of terms to reflect the way that people actually use the terms
10:43:09 <jtandy> ... we do this in the LOV community (?)
10:43:47 <fabgandon> ... http://lov.okfn.org/
10:44:02 <jtandy> vera: question - can someone explain [@@]
10:44:35 <jtandy> danbri: it came out of the experience of matching tidy RDFa into scruffy HTML / WHATWG
10:45:10 <jtandy> danbri: the microdata "fork" of RDFa made a lot of concessions to simple publication
10:45:22 <betehess> q+
10:45:25 <jtandy> ... but at the cost to machine readability
10:45:48 <jtandy> ... schema.org tries to re-use terms in many places
10:46:45 <jtandy> > domainIncludes & rangeIncludes ... is a little looser than the "neat and tidy" OWL
10:46:54 <phila> ack b
10:47:04 <jtandy> betehess: back on subject about SHACL
10:47:20 <jtandy> ... schema.org reflects what people are actually doing
10:47:33 <jtandy> ... but many people don't refer to the text
10:47:41 <fabgandon> paper "Analyzing Schema.org" http://iswc2014.semanticweb.org/raw.githubusercontent.com/lidingpku/iswc2014/master/paper/87960257-analyzing-schemaorg.pdf?raw=true
10:48:12 <jtandy> ... SHACL could be used to show how you are _using_ the ontology in a given context
10:48:41 <jtandy> danbri: suspects that SHACL and SHEX could be part of the critical infrastructure in the next couple of years
10:48:54 <jtandy> ... schema.org retains a lot of flexibility
10:49:22 <phila> -> http://schema.org/docs/datamodel.html Data Model
10:49:42 <phila> s/Data Model/schema.org Data Model/
10:50:04 <betehess> [[ We also expect that often, where we expect a property value of type Person, Place, Organization or some other subClassOf Thing, we will get a text string, even if our schemas don't formally document that expectation. In the spirit of "some data is better than none", search engines will often accept this markup and do the best we can. ]]
10:50:40 <jtandy> danbri: we don't promise that these types go with these properties - this might evolve over time
10:51:33 <jtandy> [ericP does the adapter dance ... HDMI to VGA ... sigh]
10:51:56 <jtandy> betehess: shares his screen
10:52:21 <betehess> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2016/09/highlights-from-apple-music-festival-10.html
10:52:40 <jtandy> ... looking at the source for the above page
10:52:52 <jtandy> ... line 1324
10:53:39 <jtandy> ... if we'd had a "shape" for this block of code, then we could have asserted some additional rules about properties like datePublished, dateModified
10:54:10 <jtandy> ... we have additional rules about how these terms are used based on our policies
10:54:35 <jtandy> ericP: notes that you are using schema.org's JSON-LD context
10:54:43 <jtandy> ... does that cause problems
10:55:00 <jtandy> betehess: no - schema.org's context does what we need here
10:55:21 <jtandy> ... including "width" and "height"
10:55:54 <jtandy> ericP: so you're saying all the properties are in the @context - but Apple only wanted to constrain the use of those propeties?
10:55:57 <jtandy> betehess: yes
10:56:51 <jtandy> danbri: ecosystem question
10:57:05 <jtandy> ... for a long time we didn't use the @context
10:57:12 <jtandy> ... we = Google BTW
10:57:16 <jtandy> ... but we do now
10:57:28 <jtandy> ... we still don't use other people's contexts
10:57:52 <jtandy> ... would people here like to see Google consuming multiple contexts?
10:58:24 <jtandy> ... everything [more or less] gets converted into triples; right now we only support the schema.org context - but we aspire to do more
10:58:53 <jtandy> ericP: does something wrong in Google parsing happen if more context are used?
10:59:00 <jtandy> danbri: there are two cases
11:00:11 <newton> q+
11:00:18 <jtandy> ... i) people override the schema.org context with some extra stuff e.g. facebook.schema.org (??)
11:01:36 <fabgandon> q?
11:01:46 <jtandy> ii) people referencing multiple contexts ... see https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1186
11:01:49 <phila> ack n
11:01:50 <fabgandon> ack n
11:02:25 <jtandy> newton: I would like to use schema:Person and foaf:Person - how does Google decide which one to use
11:03:19 <jtandy> danbri: Google made a decision a while ago, we used to use things from multiple namespaces ... but now we try to use just one "big" namespace
11:03:28 <jtandy> betehess: so what next?
11:03:40 <jtandy> ericP: do you want a tutorial?
11:03:44 <newton> +1
11:04:04 <jtandy> > folks seem to be happy for a 10-minute aside on SHACL
11:04:07 <fabgandon> q+ to mention SHAPE implementation
11:05:54 <jtandy> fabgandon: my research team have a validator and would love to work with interesting use cases ... like these
11:06:14 <betehess> betehess: is it an implementation of SHACL? or ShEx? or custom thing?
11:06:36 <jtandy> ... but [there's lots of moving parts]
11:07:03 <jtandy> phila: hopefully the SHAPEs stuff is moving to just one spec
11:07:32 <jtandy> ericP: does his data-shapes/SHACL tutorial ... [not minuted]
11:08:59 <jtandy> Ed Draft spec is at https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/
11:11:16 <jtandy> and https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-abstract-syntax/
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11:13:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html fabgandon
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11:49:46 <phila> -> http://schema.org/docs/jsonldcontext.json schema.org's context file
11:50:10 <phila> danbri: This file is very big
11:50:21 <phila> Topic: schema.org's Context File
11:50:29 <phila> issue 1186
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11:51:00 <jtandy> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1186
11:51:17 <ericP> -> http://schema.org/docs/jsonldcontext.json schema.org JSON-LD
11:52:09 <phila> danbri: We wanted to be able to say for each property, whether it expects strings or URIs
11:52:45 <phila> ... http://gs1.org/voc/cheeseFirmness
11:53:11 <phila> danbri: They have lots of terms...
11:54:06 <phila> ... The JSON-LD Contexts allows us to flatten it all down to one file
11:54:37 <phila> ... Found that using two simple contexts leads to mistakes/ambiguities
11:55:00 <phila> ... Because you don't know whether Person or Product came from which namespace
11:56:44 <phila> ... Change the order of the context files you get different triples
11:57:45 <phila> ... Same discussion around XML 10 years ago
11:58:03 <phila> ... People were parsing RDF/XML files with XSLT etc.
11:58:29 <phila> ... Web devs won't parse RDF/XML and handle triples
11:58:42 <phila> ericP: Do devs care about any of this?
11:58:59 <phila> danbri: That's the problem.
11:59:31 <phila> ... We want to decentralise. To plug in GS1 and wikidata, we have to make our context file a lot bigger.
12:00:09 <phila> ... Talks about Foreign Fetch
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12:01:47 <phila> ... Can be used to access local copy held in your service worker, rather than having to get the original. It's cache plus logic. It can work across multiple sites.
12:05:24 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
12:05:33 <phila> [Lunch]
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12:06:52 <ericP> -> http://schema.org/docs/jsonldcontext.json schema.org JSON-LD
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13:17:44 <newton> RRSAgent, make the logs
13:17:44 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make the logs', newton.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:17:55 <newton> RRSAgent, generate the logs
13:17:55 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'generate the logs', newton.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:18:00 <newton> Zakim, generate the logs
13:19:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html newton
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13:46:18 <danbri> see also https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/894 from Richard Wallis
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13:52:02 <danbri> http://pending.schema.org/partOfEnumerationValueSet
13:52:55 <phila> [Unscribed session looking at schema.org issues]
13:53:35 <phila> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/894
13:54:30 <danbri> <http://schema.org/codeValue> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#comment> "The actual code." <http://health-lifesci.schema.org/#3.2> .
13:54:31 <danbri> <http://schema.org/code> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#label> "code" <http://health-lifesci.schema.org/#3.2> .
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13:57:59 <danbri> Consider http://health-lifesci.webschemas.org/code http://health-lifesci.webschemas.org/codeValue
13:58:00 <danbri> health-lifesci.schema.org
14:05:32 <danbri> https://twitter.com/danbri/status/763391811603861505
14:05:45 <phila> WE think that RJW's proposal can be handled using existing schema.org terms. Make code into MedicalCode, make Code a super class
14:06:02 <phila> ... then use codeValue and codingSystem
14:06:39 <danbri> phila, can you click on http://pending.webschemas.org/identifier ?
14:06:44 <phila> s/Code a super class/code a super property/
14:07:23 <phila> Topic: http://pending.webschemas.org/identifier
14:16:52 <danbri> on http://schema.org/JobPosting http://schema.org/occupationalCategory
14:17:29 <danbri> http://schema.org/director
14:22:10 <danbri> http://schema.org/servesCuisine
14:22:29 <danbri> http://schema.org/recipeCuisine
14:25:21 <danbri> بيتزا
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14:31:18 <danbri> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility
14:31:29 <danbri> via http://schema.org/CreativeWork -> http://schema.org/accessibilityFeature
14:36:28 <danbri> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/wiki/Issue-Reorg
14:39:11 <danbri> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/1
14:39:23 <danbri> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1
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15:06:20 <phila> [General Discussion about schema.org]
15:06:32 <phila> ADJOURNED - that's all from Lisbon
15:06:40 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-vocabs-minutes.html phila
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