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08:11:56 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
08:11:56 <trackbot> Date: 23 September 2016
08:11:58 <nikos> chair: Nikos
08:12:16 <nikos> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/wiki/TPAC-2016-Agenda
08:13:17 <nikos> Meeting: TPAC 2016
08:13:45 <nikos> present+ nikos
08:16:18 <shepazu> Draft charter: https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/svg-2016.html
08:16:47 <nikos> Topic: Charter
08:25:32 <nikos> scribe: nikos
08:25:37 <nikos> scribenick: nikos
08:26:27 <nikos> nikos: Charter period ends in November. Doug has prepared a draft charter that focuses largely on completing SVG 2 with a test suite. So we've cut back the number of deliverables.
08:27:08 <nikos> shepazu: As you know w3c is going through a reorganisation. Along with that we are evaluating all of our WGs to see where we continue to put resources
08:27:28 <nikos> ... svg has had low participation from implementors so we need to continue to examine whether to continue work on svg
08:27:37 <nikos> ... we published CR last week
08:28:14 <nikos> ... After discussing things with the svg wg and with plh, I came up with this charter
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08:28:20 <nikos> ... it does two things
08:28:29 <nikos> ... 1. tightens the specs that we are working on
08:28:41 <nikos> ... 2. syncs joint specs with fxtf charter
08:29:04 <nikos> ... the main thing that we did is put svg 2 as the core and dropped most of the other modules
08:29:16 <nikos> ... we do want to continue the module approach in future if we have manpower
08:29:19 <nikos> ... there is the a11y tf
08:29:31 <nikos> ... browsers have been great about implementing features to make svg more accessible
08:29:48 <nikos> ... there is the prospect of future work in that area, but depends on implementor interest
08:30:35 <nikos> ... then we get into the joint specs. We consider those to mostly be in the domain of the CSS WG at the moment - that's where the energy is
08:30:57 <nikos> ... some of those are CR and it would be good to move them along
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08:31:24 <nikos> ... could help marshal man power and examine how the CR specs relate to implementations
08:31:36 <nikos> ... the last set of specs are svg parameters and svg connectors
08:31:45 <nikos> ... svg parameters is probably going to be folded into a spec Tab is working on
08:32:00 <nikos> ... one of which is css variables, the other is part of wicg
08:32:27 <nikos> ... connectors is an accessibility feature. We'll probably fold the semantic aspect of this into one of the accessibility specs
08:32:34 <nikos> ... make a connector role rather than an element
08:32:59 <nikos> ... the last three specs are the paths, markers, and strokes - these are the beginnings of the modularisation which will continue after svg 2
08:33:10 <nikos> ... paths and strokes could be part of the FXTF
08:34:07 <nikos> nikos: They're also in the charter so that we can publish updated WDs with some tidy up and status information so as to not confuse people
08:34:13 <nikos> shepazu: they're not high priority
08:34:31 <nikos> ... this chater extends for one year - what we'll likely do is make sure we have all the tests and try to gather developer feedback
08:34:36 <nikos> s/chater/charter
08:34:59 <nikos> shepazu: we would probably not continue the group after we complete the test suite unless there is a big increase in interest
08:36:00 <nikos> ... maybe move it to a cg
08:36:14 <nikos> ... the last thing is the authoring guide, which includes accessibility recommendations
08:36:45 <nikos> ... it could also explain about the features of svg 2 to help solicit feedback
08:37:27 <nikos> TabAtkins: After SVG 2 is done and you set up a cg or something - would you consider moving this to wicg or web platform or css or something?
08:37:31 <nikos> shepazu: everything is on the table
08:37:35 <nikos> ... personally I'd like to see it continue
08:37:46 <nikos> ... but don't care if it's as the svg wg - just want it to continue
08:37:51 <nikos> ... there's also talk of a graphics working group
08:37:58 <nikos> ... will be some stuff going on in the vr space
08:38:12 <nikos> ... + canvas, etc
08:38:56 <nikos> present+ TabAtkins
08:38:58 <nikos> present+ Rossen
08:39:00 <nikos> present+ shane
08:39:10 <nikos> present+ shepazu
08:39:32 <nikos> Rossen: are all the specs that are here really necessary? The css ones are already on our charter
08:39:38 <TabAtkins> https://tabatkins.github.io/specs/svg-params/
08:40:13 <nikos> ... do you expect much contribution from the svg wg people?
08:40:29 <nikos> ... Tav and Amelia have been very productive
08:40:42 <nikos> ... I suspect there are some joint deliverables they would like to help with
08:41:01 <nikos> Rossen: for all practical purposes they are CSS specs now
08:41:27 <nikos> ... think that cutting back the deliverables more would help focus on svg testing, verification, and PR readiness
08:41:33 <nikos> ... that would be really good to see in that timeframe
08:41:55 <nikos> ... as to what's going to happen afterwards? Unless there's renewed interest in implementors, I don't see how we can  move things forward
08:42:09 <nikos> ... I would need to see very clear timelines and accountabilities if we are going to go beyond svg 2
08:42:36 <nikos> shane: think there's a tangible benefit to moving them to the sole domain of the css wg - makes it easier to resolve where neccessary
08:42:50 <nikos> shepazu: Tab, do you see a point having svg params in our charter?
08:42:57 <nikos> TabAtkins: no, can move to wicg and css
08:43:39 <nikos> shepazu: so charter would be svg 2, 3 accessibility specs, svg connectors (as an accessibility spec)
08:43:49 <nikos> Rossen: why is it not included in one of the other 3 accessiblity specs?
08:43:59 <nikos> shepazu: it's not in scope of the other three
08:44:10 <nikos> Rossen: what is your target for this spec in the charter timeframe?
08:44:27 <nikos> shepazu: I would like to move the spec as it is to CR in that time, but depends on my time and interest
08:44:33 <nikos> ... possible I could put it in WICG
08:44:37 <nikos> Rossen: think that's the best path forward
08:44:46 <nikos> shepazu: I might get push back from accessibility people
08:44:53 <nikos> TabAtkins: wicg isn't a place to kill things.
08:45:11 <nikos> shane: it's a place where you can organise outside of the wg structure to move things faster
08:46:49 <nikos> shepazu: that leaves the 3 svg next modules
08:47:04 <nikos> Rossen: could they be published during this charter period? then we could remove them from the charter
08:47:31 <nikos> nikos: yes we could
08:48:00 <nikos> TabAtkins: We're cannibalising svg strokes and making it apply to css
08:48:05 <nikos> ... but I'm happy for it to be here or in wicg
08:48:42 <nikos> shepazu: I'm happy to remove them and be totally clear about the focus of the charter
08:48:53 <TabAtkins> https://drafts.fxtf.org/paint/
08:49:05 <TabAtkins> our UD draft for stealing fill/stroke for CSS ^^^
08:49:12 <nikos> Rossen: I'm happy to resolve to publish now and then we can remove them
08:49:43 <nikos> shepazu: there's other language that talks about the fxtf
08:50:17 <nikos> shane: so what will we do with the fxtf?
08:50:22 <nikos> shepazu: we'll just shut it down and move the specs to css
08:50:46 <nikos> ... the rationale for this charter is to strip it down to what we do in the next year
08:50:51 <nikos> ... which is what we've been doing anyway
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08:53:31 <nikos> shepazu: I'll rework the charter - dramatically strip down the scope section
08:53:49 <nikos> ... the other thing I removed was svg mapping because there hasn't been much work on it
08:54:05 <nikos> ... but we will have some mention in the scope that there will be discussions about level of detail, etc
08:54:57 <nikos> ... with those changes, does this seem reasonable to everyone?
08:55:24 <nikos> ... I'm planning to use the authoring guide to drum up some interest so we can see which features people really want
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08:56:24 <nikos> TabAtkins: svg 2 lists the changes since svg 1.1 right?
08:56:45 <nikos> nikos: yes, there's the changes appendix, but we also created a nicer list on the github wiki that people have been referring to
08:57:37 <nikos> RESOLUTION: Accept the 2017 recharter with reduced deliverables focused  on completing SVG 2 test suite and progressing the core specification and the accessibility TF work
08:58:17 <nikos> shepazu: should I still list CSS WG as a liaison ?
08:58:19 <nikos> Rossen: yes
08:58:37 <nikos> nikos: yes because fxtf people will probably still want to provide input to those specs and it would be good to recognise that
08:59:08 <nikos> Topic: SVG 2 implementation plans
08:59:33 <nikos> https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/wiki/SVG-2-new-features
08:59:35 <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
08:59:38 <nikos> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/INKSCAPE/
08:59:46 <nikos> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/SVG/SVG_2_support_in_Mozilla
09:00:09 <TabAtkins> nikos: AS mentioned before, there's a changes appendix since SVG 1.1, which is super long.
09:00:14 <TabAtkins> nikos: Created this wiki page in a nicer format.
09:00:21 <TabAtkins> nikos: Some people have turned this into an impl matrix.
09:00:34 <TabAtkins> nikos: Sebastian Zarter created an MDN doc about SVG support in Moz.
09:00:39 <TabAtkins> nikos: Slowly testing how things work.
09:00:54 <TabAtkins> nikos: Tav has published a page on his blog which lists Inkscape's support and plans, what they consider high and low prio.
09:01:00 <TabAtkins> nikos: Would be good to get feedback from the other brwosers.
09:01:14 <TabAtkins> nikos: Any plans, what parts of SVG2 they might put manpower towards, what parts they think we should forget about.
09:01:32 <TabAtkins> nikos: It's been myself, Tav, and Amelia working for a while, and we'd like to get feedback from the wider community.
09:02:09 <TabAtkins> nikos: If you haven't thought about it enough yet...
09:02:19 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Yeah, we haven't been focusing on SVG the last few releases.
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09:02:56 <TabAtkins> Rossen: We do have some SVG interop issues we need to work on, and as part of that work I'm expecting we'll work on that.
09:03:11 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Anything we can to help?
09:03:17 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Not really, we have enough people.
09:03:31 <TabAtkins> shepazu: We're gonna drum up interest among devs, is that appropriate?
09:03:33 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yes.
09:03:37 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Definitely. How you gonan do it?
09:03:42 <TabAtkins> shepazu: First, SVG Authoring Guide.
09:03:56 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Second, somebody was working on an SVG2 polyfill. Some things will be easy to do, some will be impossible.
09:04:00 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Or extremely hard.
09:04:16 <TabAtkins> nikos: Not sure they've considered what'll be involved really.
09:04:46 <TabAtkins> shepazu: And Lea mentioned doing smaller polyfills for particular features.
09:05:06 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: And Houdini's Paint API went to CR yesterday, which allows polyfilling th enew paint servers.
09:05:16 <TabAtkins> leaverou: Tho not usable in SVG as image or background-image
09:05:19 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah.
09:05:39 <TabAtkins> shepazu: So once we've done some of this, we plan to reach out to prominent devs - Lea, Coyier, Souiadan, etc.
09:05:48 <shane> ^ technically we resolved to take paint to CR pending resolution of remaining issues
09:05:58 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Here are the feature, they're all effectively at-risk, it's up to us to decide which is most interesting.
09:06:10 <TabAtkins> shepazu: So get them to write articles, raise up user's voices, etc.
09:06:19 <TabAtkins> shane: Not force it, but find out what are their priorities.
09:06:24 <TabAtkins> s/shane/shepazu/
09:06:38 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Potentially talking to DevRel from the browser vendors, see if they're interested.
09:07:20 <TabAtkins> shepazu: People haven't thought about SVG being "renewed", it has a bad history of that. But if we show them new things - wrap text, don't need to make new markers for every new color, etc. Many people don't know what they're missing.
09:07:40 <TabAtkins> leaverou: Also I think many people generate their SVG, so they don't feel many of the lacks, but many people hand-author HTML and CSS so the lacks are felt more strongly.
09:07:56 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Yeah, plan to reach out for tools - D3, etc - and see what they can help with.
09:08:19 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Hopefully within those user communities, among people who use those libraries, we can also generate interest.
09:09:17 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Sounds good.
09:09:38 <TabAtkins> shepazu: With W3C's reorg, PLH has said that it doesn't look like there's interest in SVG anymore, should we shut the group down.
09:09:43 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Fair question, we have limited resources.
09:10:12 <TabAtkins> shepazu: I think it's appropriate to recharter the group - we end in one month. I think it's appropriate to invest in seeing if we can get devs helping y'all decide what your priorities are.
09:10:40 <TabAtkins> shane: It's also worth saying that we have been focusing in Chrome on the rationalization and rmeoval of old deprecated APIs/features - for SVG2 we'll cotninue doing that.
09:10:53 <TabAtkins> shane: Slimming down things, and targetting parts of the model that make things cleaner and simpler.
09:11:01 <TabAtkins> shane: Turning everything into a presentation attribute was part of that.
09:11:20 <TabAtkins> nikos: Even if all the new graphics features got dropped, there's still lots of value in the new spec tightening things up.
09:11:25 <TabAtkins> shane: Yes, very valuable.
09:11:49 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Just dropping xlink...
09:11:52 <TabAtkins> [general assent]
09:13:54 <TabAtkins> [some unminuted discussion about browser planning]
09:14:17 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Interesting in testing - improvements we made to the spec to increase interop. Second, new features that are already getting attraction
09:14:23 <TabAtkins> nikos: Which tend to be developer convenience things.
09:14:38 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Making sure there are tests for those so they can spread to all browsers.
09:14:52 <TabAtkins> shane: We learned that from IE - until IE implemented SVG, nobody used it, and then suddenly everyone did.
09:14:57 <TabAtkins> s/shane/shepazu/
09:15:13 <TabAtkins> shepazu: And third, new new features - not necessarily low-haning fruit in terms of testing.
09:16:03 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Do you plan to solicit for testing resources?
09:16:14 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Two things. We're moving to WPT.
09:16:34 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Two, we're actively asking people in teh community, thru shotgun and targeted emails, asking to help us do testing. Grassroots stuff.
09:17:00 <TabAtkins> shepazu: When I say we're going to WPT, W3C is reorging, and part of it is having people focus on testing. We've already had some people come to us and say they'll help.
09:17:20 <TabAtkins> nikos: Paul ??? said he has a bunch already that targets corner cases, he's interested in helping convert to whatever format.
09:18:20 <nikos> s/???/Le Beau
09:18:27 <TabAtkins> shepazu: We're gonna have to do some training to people to do testing.
09:18:32 <TabAtkins> shepazu: But the lsast resource is the impls.
09:18:52 <TabAtkins> shepazu: At this point we don't need valuable engineer time, we dont' need spec writers, we need testers, QA people.
09:19:17 <TabAtkins> shepazu: We really just wanna finish SVG2 at this point. Even if impls lag behidn the end of the charter...
09:19:39 <TabAtkins> shepazu: And hey, maybe the decision after a year decides that some features get punted to SVG3, if ever, and here's the SVG2 Rec.
09:19:48 <TabAtkins> shepazu: We want a completed SVG2, with whatever features we can.
09:19:59 <TabAtkins> shepazu: So when PLH asks me if this is reasonable as an SVG approach.
09:20:07 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Y'all would be supportive of this?
09:20:12 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah.
09:20:36 <TabAtkins> Rossen: In the case of not continuing the charter, if W3M decides against it anyway...
09:20:49 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Yeah, then that's... it.
09:21:05 <TabAtkins> shepazu: We need dev feedback to get things stable; we wouldn't be able to do that.
09:22:22 <TabAtkins> nikos: Is there anything we've missed that y'all think is important?
09:22:28 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I don't think so, right now.
09:22:42 <TabAtkins> nikos: Next topic is moving along joint specs, but we already discussed that as part of the charter.
09:22:54 <TabAtkins> shepazu: Would it help for me to move those along, or just focus on SVG?
09:23:09 <TabAtkins> Rossen: The CSS/FX specs? Dont' worry about it. We have plenty of editors already.
09:23:42 <TabAtkins> nikos: Then I guess we can consider this meeting adjourned.
09:24:19 <nikos> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:24:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-svg-minutes.html nikos
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