Publishing Community Meeting at TPAC 2016

22 Sep 2016


See also: IRC log


Bill McCoy
Dave Cramer, Karen Myers, Leonard Rosenthol, Liam Quin, Bill Kasdorf, Tzviya Siegman


  1. Welcome
  2. EPUB 3 Roadmap: Development and Adoption of EPUB 3.1, EPUB for Education, and beyond
  3. Panel discussion on the Future of Portable Documents for the Open Web Platform
  4. Accessibility: Electronic Documents and Web Convergence
  5. Open Web Platform for Publishers (Beyond Content)
  6. Web-Based Publishing for Print
  7. EPUB and Web Publishing Tooling


Bill McCoy:
if we had a publishing business group, you might imagine this is their meeting, but we don't have such a group... yet

jeff jaffe: welcome to all of you
... as we explore the combination, we chose our most full-throttled tech conference to introduce this idea
... 3.5 years ago, when there was the first joint conference
... we started to talk about a vision of publishing = web
... I never imagined that we would conclude so quickly that there was so much we could do together
... I'm looking forward to us working together

EPUB 3 Roadmap: Development and Adoption of EPUB 3.1, EPUB for Education, and beyond

Markus Gylling (IDPF)
Tzviya Siegman (Wiley), Bill Kasdorf (Apex & BISG), Rick Johnson (VitalSource), Paul Belfanti (Ascend Learning)

Markus Gylling: the first session is about the epub 3 roadmap
... we assume you know about epub
... this is not epub 101
... but more about next steps in light of discussions about the combination
... we have four panelists
... introductions

Paul Belfanti: VP of content for ascend learning

rick johnson: vital source

tzviya Siegman: wiley

billk: apex

Tzviya Siegman: i co-chair the epub 3.1 wg and the DPUB IG
... I'm going to talk about epub 3.1, how we got there, and where we are going
... history of idpf
... standards org from 1999 as open ebook forum
... lots of members from pubs, and ecosystem
... we promote epub as interoperable delivery format based on owp
... [shows timeline]
... epub3 in 2012, and then fixed layout for childrens books, manga, etc
... 2013, when adoption was slow because of changes
... we worked with BISG to create epubtest.org to test feature support
... and to publicly shame reading systems that don't support all of the spec
... in 2014, we worked on a profile of epub, epub for education
... did 3.0.1 update, which was a bit more than bug fixes
... in 2015, we started working on epub 3.1
... it's currently in a public draft
... sortof like last call at w3c
... we're collecting feedback
... next step is IP review
... goal is final by end of calendar year
... we originally wanted a larger change
... but we pulled back on new features due to impending combination
... BFF had lots of overlap with PWP, so we put it on ice
... we had hoped to allow html serialization, but that too was put on hold
... we did get rid of some unused, frustrating features
... lots of editorial changes to make the documents more user-friendly
... we've also created an a11y spec
... you can evaluate and certify for a11y
... you can discover a11y features of a given epub
... based on wcag 2.0
... but there are some differences, for example navigating between html files in epub
... same high-level principles as wcag, we hope this stuff eventually migrates to wcag
... how's global adoption going?
... lots of reading system support

Daniel Glazman: where's BlueGriffon?!?

Tzviya Siegman: here's a list of those that support epub3
... we have epubcheck
... our community takes validation *very* seriously
... retailers WONT allow files that fail epubcheck
... we do need help maintaining epubcheck
... epubtest.org keeps reading systems honest
... I'm a volunteer tester, but reading systems can also test themselves
... there are EPUB 3 authoring tools, from Indesign to google docs
... epub3 has been holistically adopted in Japan

Bill McCoy: it's a national standard in South Korea
... widely adopted for trade books, manga, educationtzviya

Tzviya Siegman: timeline
... epub 3.1 at end of 2016
... current proposal is for an EPUB 3 Community Group to work on 3.1 maintenance

Markus Gylling: let's save questions for the end

Rick Johnson: it's an understatement to say it's popular in education
... I'm from VitalSource
... we do a *lot* of business in education
... 18 million textbooks
... we're involved in the WG
... we do creation tools, integration tools, analytics, learning process, reading systems
... broad content support. Ingram is our partner, we work with 58,000 imprints
... we support lots of formats, but we love EPUB
... it's because of mobile devices
... students love mobile devices, need content that reflows and is accessible
... they like highly interactive web sites, made into books via epub
... a year ago, five of our top 100 titles were epub
... now two-thirds of our top 100 are epub, PDF is now a backlist format
... epub reading is mostly in the browser
... and a lot of the usage is offline
... and epub is great for that
... we also do content creation
... we have our own tool focused on making it simple for students/faculty to create content, born accessible
... it's all wcag AA conformant
... EPUB is not a future tech, it's a fact in the marketplace
... it's a best practice for getting web tech into the education marketplace

Markus Gylling: thanks Rick!

Paul Belfanti: I'm going to talk about epub for education spec
... why did we create this?
... there was a logjam in the industry
... the overhead was too high, too many variants of the file format
... you'd have to create 15 versions of every epub for the various channels
... and features were missing
... the development costs were high
... and there wasn't enough content.
... it was a vicious cycle.
... from a publisher standpoint, a standard format gives you
... economies of scale
... sourcing flexibility
... consistency
... reduces overhead
... you can focus on product enhancements
... for the platform provider
... more volume of content
... for the educator
... content can integrate with LMS
... easily repurposed, trackable
... easily deployed
... for the learner, it's more responsive
... has richer experiences leading to better outcomes
... can be used anywhere, inside or outside classroom
... will get more affordable
... what is the edupub alliance?
... a group of like-minded organizations
... driven by IDPF, IMS Global, W3C, BISG
... pooled resources for a common goal
... a lightweight structure based on existing standards
... EDUPUB = Open Web Standards + Learning management + ???
... it includes everything that the context needs for education
... integrate IMS, allow annotations, interactivity
... has an education-tuned semantic vocabulary to describe these complex structures
... aligned with readium to help implementation
... interactivity, connectivity, complex design, and a11y
... it's a global alliance
... the first workshop included more than 100 people, from china, brazil, europe, all over the globe
... different regions have different needs... learning styles, layout requirements, horizontal vs vertical
... where do we go from here?
... epub for edu is somewhat on hold in spec development because of 3.1
... focusing on implementations
... spec is in public draft
... will meet in February 2017 to do status check and work on next steps

Bill_Kasdorf: I'm shocked that my colleagues have not gone over time :)
... BISG is the book industry study group
... we represent the entire supply chain, not just publishers
... historically more trade-oriented
... aggregators, tech companies, retailers, service providers
... we're not an advocacy organization like AAP
... BISG was an early supporter of EPUB
... we work hand-in-hand with IDPF to promote EPUB
... it's not just books (everyone drink)
... we have a reciprocal membership with w3c and IDPF
... we put together working groups that work on publications to help encourage implementation and adoption
... talking about edupub
... so paul chaired a bisg group to write "Getting Started with EDUPUB"
... to help people get started
... it's due for an update now
... we did a quickstart guide to accessible publishing
... it's gotten incredible attention and update, partly due to our friends from vital source
... got it translated into many languages
... a big priority for BISG is a11y
... many people in the room helped drive this
... it's 70 pages long, but the quickstart part is 20 pages
... if you have a properly created epub3, you're already 90 percent of the way to accessibility
... i also want to mention epubtest.org
... it's a collaboration between BISG, IDPF, and DAISY
... DAISY did the heavy lifting
... aimed at the misconception that epub3 was not getting adopted
... it was, but not every feature
... so we needed to see which RSs supported a particular feature

(showing epubtest.org on screen)

<Ralph> http://epubtest.org/

Bill Kasdorf: lots of pubs don't distribute to the retail supply chain
... it's easy to use, nice interface with lots of details about feature support
... and there's now testing for a11y support
... which is more complex due to interactions of reading system, AT, and operating system
... so this information is based on knowledgeable users reporting on tests
... this is useful for procuring tech for schools

Markus Gylling: four minutes for questions

Laurent Le Meurs: what is the relationship between epubtest and epubcheck?

Bill_Kasdorf: epubtest is about the reading system
... epubcheck is about the epub file

Bill McCoy: there are also actual test files on github

Bill Kasdorf: this is useful for reading system devs

Markus Gylling: epubtest test suite is manual tests
... that's why it's expensive and painful to run
... epub reading systems don't have a standard api, unlike browsers, so we can't do automated testing

Tzviya Siegman: please help out

George: the a11y test book does a great job, but we will add more titles to check math and advanced features

Bill_Kasdorf: everything we've talked about is a work in progress

Markus Gylling: more questions? we have thirty seconds.
... let's switch the people


Panel discussion on the Future of Portable Documents for the Open Web Platform

Ivan Herman (W3C)
Tzviya Siegman (Wiley), Garth Conboy (Google), Markus Gylling (IDPF), Bill McCoy (IDPF)

ivan: I try to be bolder than markus, and ask panelists to be short
... I expect questions
... this session is more about future work, future directions
... after the combination is done
... just to indicate how flexible things are, what we were calling pwp may even change it's name
... this is movable ground
... the idea is to give an overview of where we want to go
... i will begin with markus, who was one of the instigators
... garth is the latest addition to the co-chair list
... tzviya is the stable point
... and bill moves everything behind the scenes

Bill McCoy: I'm the unstable point

Ivan Herman: Markus will talk about background

Markus Gylling: jeff mentioned the initial workshop in february 2013 in NYC
... the interest group was created six months later
... initially, the scope and ambition was exploratory to understand the landscape
... to make the connection between OWP and the ebook industry more direct
... there has always been some distance between owp and portable doc formats
... we wanted to understand the gaps
... which problems have been solved, which haven't
... the first 2 years were in this mode
... we did research, we published reports
... some are ongoing projects
... Dave Cramer has requirements for text layout doc
... and a CSS priorities doc
... we did a gap analysis of wcag 2.0
... we did use cases for annotations for dpub
... the initial explorative mode has changed to working on PWP
... now we're looking more pragmaticallly to that future
... so the IG can provide the fodder needed by a new working group within w3c
... we've been working on use cases since the dawn of time

Garth Conboy: Co-chair of PWP Interest Group

Tzviya Siegman: you just renamed it!

Garth Conboy: Sorry, Digital Publishing Interest Group!
... and Chairman of the Board of IDPF
... I am either persistent or stubborn in this space
... I started in 1999…when just a few companies were doing this
... we were hunting around with NY publishers to find content
... it dawned on us to have publishers deliver a new format was not workable
... this lead to open ebook format which then led to IDPF and EPUB
... but even then it was based on Web technologies
... there was HTML and some CSS
... we did a package and a manifest
... This has been moving for quite some time to get to EPUB3.1
... move from @ world to where we are now
... We don't do our best when we invent from whole cloth
... exception is the EPUB package file
... Other things we invented from whole cloth but were not as successful
... as we brought in more and more stuff from the Web
... and we have been continuing in that direction
... as we consider a potential merger, with DPub group
... I will let Tzviya talk to that group more because she has much more history than I
... As we look at what a Portable Web Publication is
... there is a list of capabilities of what a PWP can be
... it's wholly contained, packaged, layer of technologies being used
... based on OWP
... and there has been a bit of tensions
... as we published our use cases recently
... between the browser community and the browser community
... EPUB has always been this zipped thing; never really existed as a Web site
... some tension with browsers and we want to render this natively
... has been this zip file
... what feels like an interesting
... what Ivan would say was a "kumbaya moment"
... on Tuesday [Bill clarified]
... whether P stands for portable or packaged is unclear
... but a lot of agreement is publications
... maybe packaged file gets into more Web manifest

<boris_anthony> Layers that Garth refered to:

<boris_anthony> portable

<boris_anthony> bounded package of media

<boris_anthony> in web-standard formats

<boris_anthony> addressable by standard Web protocols

<boris_anthony> and consumable by standard Web tools.

Garth Conboy: a lot of interesting technologies at W3C

Garth Conboy: Dave working on interesting things
... Hope this will be publsihed on web, can be viewed online
... whether single or multiple
... maybe larger value than one
... one would be closely related to where we are with EPUB today
... where we have a whole industry
... We have to find a path to move this forward, the PWP into the Web world
... Earlier there was the browser friendly format that we decided not to move forward
... in order to bring it to the PWP effort
... I was a late comer to that
... think about how to round trip it
... Dave not throwing things at me
... There were experiements of taking packaging into HTML
... will serve us well
... But I will be the stick in the mud that we have to support the existing industry
... now Tzviya can talk

Tzviya Siegman: Garth picks things up quickly
... I'll give a brief background on the use cases
... It's not covert, but we have been laying the groundwork for a Working Group
... we need more information about what we need to do
... We have put together this use case document that we new we needed to do
... what we did was intentionally agnostic about the kinds of technologies we would be using
... In the last two weeks

Ivan; one week

Tzviya Siegman: seems like two
... in the past amount of time we have had a number of comments that "all of this technology exists" so use it
... one of members of groups said, look at WebApp manifest, look at Service Workers
... last TPAC we spoke with Jake Archibald
... on his way home he built a crude system based on Service Workers
... Dave took it and build a crude system based on Service workers
... there is a Moby Dick book in there and a Bible
... files that a bit different from what Web world knows
... they need to be first class citizens
... Remember MathML…it needs to function
... We need to bring publications to same level of respect and support as other HTML documents
... We need to figure out what this means in the world of service workers, web app manifests
... on this year's, next year's and three years' from now's Web
... Looks like we are headed in the right direction
... Sometimes we use different words or terms that are different from the people in eWeb platforms group
... I may call package that someone else calls off the web
... we have a lot of work to do, but the direction we are headed in is something like a Web publication
... that I can just open in a Web browser
... There is a conference called Books and Browsers
... I want to be able to open my book in a browser
... But opening offline is very important to our industry
... I need to be able to take my book and read whenever I want
... whether in a plane or library
... I need to be able to do whatever I want
... We have to figure this out and be able to work together
... We have a lot of work ahead of us and get to that "kumbaya moment"

Bill McCoy: I am going to talk about the people issues and the risks and what we have to be fearful of

Bill McCoy: and not talk about technical solutions
... I am very interested in future solutions and technology
... but today I want to talk about the people side
... To get to the Nirvhana that Tzviya talked about
... where end users can publish easily to the Web
... and big corporations can publish to Web for online and offline distributions
... and it's all Nirvanna
... Thanks to the publishing industry engagement
... other parts of the Web will advance more rapidly
... like Web payments, IoT, Accessibility
... that is the Paradise we want to get to
... but it's not going to happen quickly
... this seamless online/offline may not happen
... tech standards work is slow

Bill McCoy: some publishing industry people are not aware of what is going on
... we have risk for disappointment
... we think we are going after paradise
... but we are slogging along to achieve some minor things
... but it's totally worthwhile
... the fact that Nirvanna won't happen
... don't mistake a clear view for a short distance
... this is not going to be a short distance
... We should be very happy if in the next two years
... my slides today are hand coded HTML

Bill McCoy: if we can take some incremental steps
... for publications on the Web
... and tell if a browser supports MathML
... and bridge gap between accessible content or not
... make things closer to online world
... without achieving the 'grand unified theory' like Einstein who did not achieve that
... we can approach
... we are on the low slope of the asotope
... I want to encourage us all to be wary of reject shock
... that people from publishing industries come in and feel they cannot do it
... W3C understands concepts of "bikeshedding' and "not invented here"
... but EPUB people may like a paint color and want not to change
... we need to drink beer together and it's going to take years

<Ralph> [ -> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bikeshedding "bikeshedding" ]

Bill Coy: but we have to recognize it's going to take some head butting and challenges
... but we will work towards this Kumbaya

Daniel Glazman: One of greatest things from the IDPF-W3C merger is the investment of browsers into the W3C groups
... and more importantly the investment of the publishers into the W3C groups
... companies are not always interested in the "minor" uses of the Web
... may not be interesting for them to follow
... a "dinosaur" of the past
... if you can join these groups like Web Platform that are interesting for publications
... then you will have much greater weight

<astearns> setting the expectation at incremental improvement is immensely important

Daniel Glazman: if you are not there, it will be harder for us
... liaising is good for two different standards bodies
... but post merger you have to be everywhere

<tzviya> +1

Daniel Glazman: if EPUB is successful it will have to come into W3C

Tzviya Siegman: I agree

Leonard Rosenthol: The title of the panel does not reflect discussion
... group has focused on publications
... how do you focus on publications and documents in that scope
... you talked about the outreach to global publishers
... and what about outreach to the global publishers of documents

Bill McCoy: you are right
... I tried to explain there are many publishing industries
... I tend to avoid document in W3C land that we tend to get shackled with
... I want to make different version from Dave Cramer's
... with soccer schedules and different things from PDF land
... I laughed yesterday after the mad scramble yesterday, it took hours for the schedule to get up on the Web
... even at the W3C
... whereas if someone had just put up a PDF it would have taken 10 minutes
... we need to make it easier and to democratize
... I am excited about discussion from Tuesday about descoping
... we need to be very careful
... just because big publishers are joining
... communication and publishing is a grassroots thing
... and we cannot be driven only by commercial and book publishers

Garth Conboy: I think it's a terminology issue
... I do say publications all the time
... I think that documents, books are children of publications
... an example, no one is going to write Moby Dick in Google docs
... they are going to write a newsletter or in InDesign
... that has expect in EPUB
... smaller things in Google docs which has export to EPUB

Bill McCoy: Wiley and Random House don't care

Tzviya Siegman: We do care; our authors write in whatever format they want
... we care about documents, but people will do whatever they want
... Dave reminds me I cannot tell James Patterson how to write
... People tell us it's too hard to work on EPUB
... To quote Tim from last night, we have to keep things simple
... Whatever we create, it has to be easy to do this
... If it's easy, then people will write their schedules or Moby Dick or their Nobel winning papers in this format
... and maybe Math will be part of it

Bill McCoy: If the word publisher is out of picture and you are just an author
... kids' soccer letter just has an 'author'
... the use case of 'author equals publisher' cannot be in the back

Ivan Herman: other questions

Steve Zilles: I like the notion of a browser friendly format that is off-lineable
... when you have a package it is relatively easy to ensure security of the package
... We are living in a world where everyone is trying to break into your system, especially if it's an active device
... how do you see providing protection to these "BFFs"
... Browser friendly formats

Bill McCoy: we are not going to reinvent the Web security model, as Mike Smith said

Leonard Rosenthol: Mike and I keep challenging that
... not reinvent Web Security model
... I agree, but it needs to be extended

Bill McCoy: Steve was talking about unpackaged case
... in packaged case we have it solved
... but we need to think about that more

Leonard Rosenthol: What PDF and EPUB do is not comparable with the Web security model
... if we want on and off web security, we have to maintain that model
... it's a model people understand and it's standardized in W3C
... It's absolutely TBD and we need to spend time on this

Garth Conboy: with protesters not there now, there is encryption and security around that
... which gets you walled gardens that are bad for end users of the content
... it's unclear whether these efforts are going to be steps towards resolving these problems
... there is room for evolution

Bill McCoy: important point we glossed over
... that should be done from the top down
... we have this packaged thing
... have to do work from bottom up and top down
... what is the minimum to do from the online world

Rick Johnson: We have two relatively mature industries coming together with many assumptions
... we'll have to unpack these and not put stakes in the ground now
... have to keep working on these

Bill Kasdorf: I have spoken about convergence
... it means both sides have value and both sides have to move
... how much we take for granted
... in EPUB children's books
... behind that is technology that came out years ago
... like accessibility

George Kerscher: that was from W3C

Bill Kasdorf: now the publishing community is not thinking about accessibility we just do SMIL
... another obvious example is Flash
... we don't need it now
... but a few years ago that's all publishers used
... Real publishers is getting us toward that Nirvanna; we are getting those bits and pieces

Daniel Glazman: there is an area of difference between IDPF and W3C that is mentioned but not often enough
... because it is going to hit us quite fast
... and that is testing

Ivan Herman: We did discuss

Daniel Glazman: ok, but Testing takes a lot of time and energy
... who is going to discuss it and how
... it is going to be a pain

Ivan Herman: we started to discuss this on Tuesday afternoon
... this has to be discussed in the WG
... in an IG it is premature
... but we will need to put that as part of WG

Daniel Glazman: there is a corollary question
... maintain 3.1
... but what is going to happen to testing?
... we have to work together

Ivan Herman: I think this will be part of the details

Ivan Herman: when the discussions continue between the two organizations
... testing has to be taken over as part of the maintenance at W3C

Bill McCoy: some of this is insufficient in terms of W3C standards
... bringing these things together is not going to be easy
... like bringing together people from France and England
... this WG focus is not clear yet
... cannot imagine it as a clean hand-over
... premature for the unified roadmap
... but it must include testing

Luc Audrain: we have to keep in mind
... we are some here from the publishing industry but we are very few
... book publishing has hundreds of years of history and quality
... there is no roadmap for future
... we are aware of OWP and standards
... for digital publishing
... we achieved digpub with EPUB
... I am afraid that not many people in the publishing industry are aware of the challenges and what is at stake with this merging

Luc Audrain: it's important to keep in mind
... we are willing to go
... to transform this industry
... not only in terms of marketing but also in terms of techniques to create and to bring the author's ideas to the market

Ivan Herman: Shall we take a break?

Garth Conboy: thank you for this discussion

Accessibility: Electronic Documents and Web Convergence

George Kerscher (Daisy Consortium)
Judy Brewer (W3C), Charles LaPierre (Benetech)

George Kerscher: president of IDPF and member of the DPIG

Judy Brewer: director of web accessibility initiative of W3C

Charles LaPierre: tech lead fro born a18y at benetech and chair of a18y documents

George Kerscher: preparing this presentation for 20 years (or longer).
... back in the 80's there was movement towards dig books in a18y community.
... working with SGML folks which morphed towards HTML 1.0
... the blind community was supported by libraries and it "simply" needed to transition to digital (from analog)
... lots happeend before eBooks in '99
... same people also were excited in web a18y as well - '97
... I was asked to help steer the web a18y back then
... and that was part of why DAISY chose the web technology, becaus there was already a connection
... I believe that web a18y was always guiding the IDPF work
... moving fwd to when EPUB 3.1 work started, there was an oppt to start a specific doc around EPUB & A18y
... Avneesh and Charles chair that
... there was also a piece of work around WCAG and electronic publishing

Charles LaPierre: wht we wanted to do was find gaps in WCAG that weren't covered in DigiPub
... went through all techniques and found holes that DAISY had most addressed, especially around skippability, etc.
... needed to shine spotlight on these gaps
... also found other areas such as annotations, positioning, etc. that are already being worked on
... but things like Math are kicking off in new groups
... and then put these things into the guidelines and a Note was published

George Kerscher: conformance side, heard from many others about epubtest.org for conformance of RS
... on a18y, but creating a test book with no errors that could be used to eval the RS on a18y
... 32 evaluations so far on RS+AT (eg. NVDA + ADE)
... but we did with the EPUB A18y spec, was to use WCAG (no new wheels!) but add new success criteria
... this is a public spec for all of EPUB, not just 3.1
... in terms of conformance, Charles tell us about metadata and how we're using it

Charles LaPierre: in our guidleines, we have discoverability enabled publications
... in collaboration with schema.org
... additional metadata per publication that enables discoverability of a18y features (or hazards) on a given publication
... eg textual, visual, auditory, tactile, etc.
... a textbook with a few images with no alt=text, would require a visual and textual to consume it. BUT if there was alt-text, textual only is fine
... also have metadata that enables 3rd parties to claim conformance to XXXX standard (and what version of same)
... and who did the certification (if any)
... there is also a summary (human readable) about a18y

George Kerscher: AccessModeSufficient - if you have text, that means it can xformed to text->speech, to braille, etc.
... if you have that, you can probably access all the content in just about any AT method
... certification metadata is again about making a claim. You MUST it to claim it - either by publisher or 3rd party
... this enables market to determine what is accessible and what is not
... very use for EDU
... this is all work that was done before

Judy Brewer: I am speaking to people from IDPF to fill you in on W3C work
... even though we've been doing a18y together for a while
... please reach out to me if you have stuff you'd like to address in a18y or publishing (myself or other staff)
... W3C is a vendor neutral consortium to develop standards for the web - "Web for All"
... Open Web Platform (based on HTML5), including A18y as a core component
... so that every spec is reviewed for a18y considerations
... Web Accessibility Initiative has been around for a long time. currently undergoing reorg to distribute the work
... cross-disability and aging, cross-technology concerns, development of specs, education, etc.
... web a18y including vision, hearing, motor, speech, cognitive and much more...
... publishing is not visual but its many more such as cognitive, learning, motor, etc.
... there has been a series of pub & a18y efforts already
... and looking forward to building even more, especially for things such as ARIA
... WCAG is a document that is considered a core standard world wide
... not just for the web
... content should be percievable, operable, understandable and robust
... one of the big items on WCAG is that is has a layered design so that below those key things there are guidelines towards make them happen
... and there are tons of great examples we've already done
... and then you finally have success criteria that define if you have actually achieved your goals
... and most of them are technology neutral since the techniques are per-technology
... "you can use WCAG to make anything accessible"
... some current work in a18y at W3C
... update to WCAG 2.0 with expanded coverage in cognitive and low vision
... ATAG and UAAG completed in 2015
... exploring needs for a possible WCAG 3.0 in a future
... also looking into authoring tool a18y for producing a18y content AND how to do any authoring accessibly
... there is a bunch of conformance testing around WCAG 2.
... human expert tests, semi-automated tests and fully automated tests
... work going on in a CG around even more automated testing
... that is now a TF in the WCAG group to work on an actual test harness and procedures
... then see if we can move some semi-autos into autos using the new framework
... name is "Accessibility Conformance Testing" TF
... WCAG 2 has a LOT of supporting education materials understanding to  what it is, why we have it, how to implement it, etc
... also many 3rd parties with materials as well has all the material you will need

George Kerscher; BISG quick start guide is a great initial rererence

George Kerscher: in the appendix there is additional support references that point to W3
... DAISY was given a grant by Google to make a impact
... establish a baseline of accessibility and then build tools for testing and compliance
... first step was the EPUB A18y spec, and that is the baseline (WCAG A, AA or AAA)
... plus you have to add a variety of other items for DigPub
... since everything can't be quantified, there will be a process document about how to evaluate context
... and software woud help people follow that process
... Avneesh and Raman are both here and part of the TF
... on a short timeframe in advance of the ACT TF

Judy Brewer: in transition between CG->WG, so peple have a perfect opp to sign up

George Kerscher: open for Q & A
... we know that the publishers want a "good housekeeping seal" on their documents and schools want to searh on that
... but can't do it now!
... biggest impact is the baseline and declaration of support

Charles LaPierre: the whole supply chain is critical in ensuring the A18y - from author to publisher to aggregator to ...
... they all need to make sure that al the tools are a18y aware ad dont damage the content

George Kerscher: having that statement is a huge start

Avneesh Singh: it is beautiful to see that the combination of the work between IDPF and WCAG is a great thing
... but what is the path forward for such metadata in the web?

Charles LaPierre: in the guidelines (2.4), there is support for things such as TOC, navigation, etc.

Judy Brewer: not sure there is a gap but there is a team doing the gap identification (@tzviya?)
... but it should be possible to add new tehniques as we go forward as they are identified
... either 2.x or Silver (3.0)
... but the timing is great to get this all working

Tzviya Siegman: get involved!

Charles LaPierrre: page numbers are a big issue and there may not be a print equivalent to which you need to match. but with more born digital, that maynot be true.
... and if there wasn't a print equiv, you probably want something else for navigation

Judy Brewer: different technology paradigms are going to be a big issue as the grups come together - pages (and their numbers) are a good example.
... you will probably need to educate this community about your needs
... and let them know why they are important

Open Web Platform for Publishers (Beyond Content)

Ralph Swick (W3C)
Chris Lilley (W3C), Alan Stearns (Adobe), Ian Jacobs (W3C)

three topics: CSS work/Houdini, Web payments, web fonts

Alan Stearns: motivation for Houdini... I'm not a publisher or designer; my motivation is making tools for them to express what they want

When I started with dtp at Aldus it was a toy technology in terms of its functionality, but had clear benefits already.

The output was laughably inept.

It got better. We moved from a toy basis to a mostly-annoying phase.

You had to do a lot of manual teaking.

I think we emerged around 2001 or so, after several iterations of [Adobe] InDesign, when the new tools were better in every respect than what they replaced.

But by then there was a new technology, the Web.

It was interesting to be able to get things on people's screens, but what they were seeing was... inept. It has got better.

Now we're well into the "annoying" phase for the Web. You can get what you want, but there's so much tweaking, from a designer's perspective, to get where you want.

Since the Web relies on browsers, you now longer have access to the manual tweaking; you have to use CSS hacks and scripting.

I've been involved with the CSS WG trying to build in capabilities that you need in the browser, and also to make the script-based tweaking better.

Now we have flexbox and grid, that the Web never had before; they started before my involvement but I'm making sure they're getting done.

Hyphenation has been a personal crusade of mine and [is happening]. Now I'm working on baseline grids,

something that every other publishing technology has ever had!

And we're adding opentype variation font support.

But there will be tweaking. So in another room today, the Houdini Task Force is meeting to talk about how to expose more of the style infrastructure to scripting.

How to make styling easier to do, or possible to do; first few steps will reduce the coding in e.g. Readium, & to make it run faster.

Maybe also you can do things like baseline grids in scripting with Houdini - can't today at all.

I need all of your help.

I need the people in your organizations who are wrestling with the Web's current annoyances.

The people coming up with CSS hacks. The developers writing JS to get things done.

I need you to come to the CSS WG, to Houdini. We need to feel your pain.

We now have custom properties, so e.g if epub needed a new property, the browsers will keep it, and Houdini is working on letting you say whether the property is inherited, the ability to validate the values. Also working on

Alan Stearns: the typed object model [OM]. Getting/setting values involves a lot of string code today; with typed OM the values will work natively.

[Ian Jacobs enters the room to talk about Web Payments]

Ian Jacobs: the Web Payments IG seeks to make payments easier and more secure at checkout.

Looking for standards opportunities, regulatory concerns, liaison, but focus is checkout.

The first aspect is enhancing the browser to it helps the users make payments more quickly.

The second aspect is Payment Apps.

A person goes to an online store and pressed a Buy button.

browser asks merchant what's accepted [visa and mastercard, say]

(API is intended to help solve "Nascar problem" where there are too many logos.)

So the browser now turns to the payment app. User has registered credit/debit cards with the browser.

user picks a card, browser sends detail via payment app [scribe uncertain here]

The web payments IG hopes this will make web payments easier.

The API also has a "matchmaker" protocol via inter-ledger payments - you'd just say how you want to pay, not see what the merchant prefers.

Can fall back to classical checkout procedures.

Bill Kasdorf: so the merchant no longer needs to keep a record of my credit card number

Ian Jacobs: I want to distinguish payment credentials from identity of the person shopping. Many sites will still want to retain a customer relationsip.

Merchants don't want a customer card number. They use e.g. braintree to take the liability.

Bill McCoy: some large merchants want this information. How will that affect things?

Ian Jacobs: merchants may not want the credit cards. E.g. uber uses braintree.

one way for cenvenience is local (browser) storage rather than e.g. Amazon or Google storing the card.

q: so where does the liability and privacy end?

Ian Jacobs: so eg. https will help. But there are some interesting questions about who responsible for what.

Payment apps will have some responsibility. E.g. you get an app from yuor bank and they want to know it's you

So they might use Web authentication (another Working Group's product).

Avneesh Singh: I was in a meeting, analyzing why epub not picking up in Asia.

The Asian countries are not on the online payment mode.

Maybe the payment is added to the user's 'phone bill. Is this flexible enough to support this?

Ian Jacobs: great question! I talked about the bigger picture - there are lots of different payment methods, and we're trying to understand about real payment methods in practice.

We've separated the payment method from the user experience.

We've made a standard process, we mentioned credit cards & bitcoin but there can be lots of others. So yes it's a goal to be very flexible & we're trying to work with others & confirm that flexibility.

You mentioned carrier billing, a broader question. E.g. my payment app from my phone company would support the payment method, and when the merchant that accepts taht & I have an app for it there's a match & it works

<Karen> Liam Quin: I know from working from working with NACS

<Karen> …in practice a small merchant is not allowed to keep a customers' Visa number

<Karen> ..but they lie to Visa

<Karen> …if you run a convenience store with a filling station

<Karen> …every now and then someone will drive off without paying

<Karen> …or someone will use a stolen card

<Karen> …your system needs to supports this unusual use case

Ian Jacobs: merchants make a business decision whether to use old system, but could still do it.

[Chris Lilley introduces Fonts]

Originally Web used Platform Fonts, system-specific

Then there was basic font download.

[shows opentype ligatures, opentype features]

Chris: example - font-varant-numerc: oldstyle/lining numbers, for whether digits are lower-case or upper-case.

Another example - fractions

using diagonal-fractions feature.

e.g for 13/27

proportional vs fixed-width digits

[shows discretionary ligatures]

[shows font-synthesis to tell the browser whether to fake bold or slanted fonts if not available]

[font-kerning and letter-spacing] "normal" turns kerning on.

kerning is for specific pairs of characters, letterspacing is for all characters.

Woff is a font-specific compression for browsers.

Woff2 makes more use of font-specific compression techniques, e.g. not transmitting a bounding box when it can be calculated.

woff 2 fonts tend to average about 32% of the size of the original font; woff 1 were 45% of the size.

On mobile, the last 2% size gains uses too much CPU to decompress, duobles decode time!

[colour fonts for illuminated manuscripts... or actually for emoji]

example: tradition of hand-painted signage in India Painter Kafeel. Shows using CSS to change the colours in an SVG colour font in firefox & edge. Coming to the Chrome browser.

Opentype 1.8 arrived last week with font variations, like multiple masters or GX.

Download one font and get five diffrent weights, condensed and wide version, optical size, slant, etc, so big change.

font can have custom axes too.

Ralph: [thanks Chris]

Web-Based Publishing for Print

Florian Rivoal (Vivliostyle)
Dave Cramer (Hachette), Liam Quin (W3C)

<dauwhe> link to Dave Cramer slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2016Sep/0004.html

Dave Cramer: HBG has produced over 1,000 titles as HTML + CSS = PDF

. . . and sold over 50,000,000 print books done this way,
. . . It costs much less than offshore typesetting.
. . . We love this! It just plain works.
. . . Admittedly, most of our books are fiction and straightforward nonfiction.
. . . But we still care about good typography and layout.
. . . So I tried doing a travel guide--very complex, very graphic. Possible? Yes!
. . . [He showed the code to prove it. See his slides.]
. . . He even did an image that crosses a spread.
. . . There's whole class of software called CSS Formatters that is how this is done.
. . . He uses one called Prince. Antenna House makes another one.
. . . Also showed picking up page numbers for a TOC, including a detailed chapter TOC.
. . . See spec: CSS Generated Content for Paged Media Module [need url]
. . . Dave wants to use the same tools and technologies to make print and digital books. IDPF + W3C.
. . . This isn't WYSIWYG. This is code based, template based composition.

Florian Rivoal: The Web is the universal medium, for everyone, for every culture.

. . . Conceptual model of CSS is great for print, but the implementation is lacking.
. . . Vivliostyle addresses this, without forking CSS.
. . . Showed a book on CSS created entirely in CSS with SVG images.
. . . It's the Japanese edition.
. . . Uses modern aspects of CSS like flexbox.
. . . Exact same result in PDF and in the browser.
. . . Major/minor columns mirrored on verso/recto.
. . . Generates the pagebreak markers for index/toc functionality.
. . . Can consume either a single HTML document or a loose collection of HTML docs or an EPUB.
. . . Also responsive.
. . . Reflow recalculates page numbers in real time.
. . . [oohs and ahhs]
. . . Accommodates scrolling: showed a code block that scrolls a region within the page.

<Florian> there are vivliostyle demos here: http://www.vivliostyle.com/en/sample/ and here http://vivliostyle.github.io/vivliostyle.js/samples/TR/)

Liam Quin: We closed the XML WG
... There is built in support for spreads, column spreads,
... These are things that don't exist in CSS. Can be done with vendor extensions We are trying to fill the gaps and are working to standardize some of the things needed for books.

Liam Quin: There are some schools that teach XSL for publishers
... not many (any?) that teach CSS for publishers
... My goal is to help make CSS fill the needs of publishers
... We do not need to take everything that FO does, but there are aspects from it to move into CSS.
... We also need to take the needs of self-publishing into consideration
... we need to use finishing, such as gilt spines, JDF, etc.

Bill McCoy: How soon can you stop using formatters, add-ons, etc?
... Are we close to CSS-FO?

Florian Rivoal: There are various tools that are implemented today. Not all of this is standard, but we are here to make it standard.
... Specs move slowly, but we are working on them.

Dave Cramer: We have relatively stable specs that have been implemented by the formatters, not the browsers

Ivan Herman: The fact that you do it proves it can be done

Liam Quin: Houdini is opening the browser up to scripting, which may help with layout
... as these happen in Houdini polyfills

Bill McCoy: And publishers need to particapte more

Liam Quin: File bugs against browsers

Dave Cramer: and a pull request!

Florian Rivoal: and a business case

Alan Stearns: Echoing bill. People have been asking for paginated views for a long time, but we need to convince browsers that there is real demand

Leonard Rosenthol: CSS and the Web push the envelope when it comes to design
... Have you run into limitations when it comes to print? Has the Web overtaken print?

Dave Cramer: Yes, people want emojis in print

Florian Rivoal: You can do whatever you want with pen and paper
... but if you stretch the paper, it looks odd
... CSS is for all sizes, and it works for a range of sizes

Paul Belfanti: The reality is that most publishers don't produce most of their products, so we need to get their vendors involved

EPUB and Web Publishing Tooling

Luc Audrain (Hachette)
Lauren Le Meurs (EDRLab), Daniel Glazman (Disruptive Innovation)

Laurent Le Meurs: I'm CTO of EDRLab

Daniel Glazman: I'm from Disruptive Innovations
... I started working on SGML rendering in 1990
... and lots of other things

Laurent Le Meurs: EDRLab is created by french publishers, representing 75% of publishing in france
... and SNE
... and French ministry of culture
... we did the EPUB summit in Bordeaux in April
... there will be an EPUB Summit in 2017, location TBD
... we are workiing on Readium LCP
... "user friendly DRM"
... avoid complexity for the user, and will be interoperable, accessible, and managed by nonprofit

Luc Audrain: books are old citizens
... web does not yet have the typographic excellence that is required
... we now release print and epub at the time time
... we have embraced epub because of the OWP
... what is there today for epub tools, for people who want to create only digital versions
... why aren't there many tools, unlike for creating websites

Daniel Glazman: my editor is based on gecko
... you can apply any css3/4 features
... you can access manifest/spine/package
... epub2 and epub3
... it is fully internationalized
... thanks to Gecko, so I benefit from web standardization
... we have to cobble together workflows from many pieces
... we have to hand-edit epubs
... ideally I should be able to take the web editor, and add epub features
... but it's almost impossible
... because of the proprietary XML in epub, and the packaging
... because there's no file api
... I can't paginate in my software
... our goal now is to have a full editorial chain based on epub
... start with epub, you add, you link, you edit, end with epub
... with nothing proprietary, only using pure web tech
... the things we really miss:
... pagination
... pagination is not only for single documents, we need to paginate multi-document views in one viewport
... footnotes, counters, page numbers should be cross-document
... we should be able to draw on a canvas inside epub
... extend contenteditable
... we need to go far beyond what the front-end web is able to do to meet the requirements
... of publications
... we should have new tech features never thought of in the web world

Laurent Le Meurs: I want to talk about client side

(network problems means some part of scribing failed)

Laurent Le Meurs: we want to enhance readium
... we're launching readium architecture project
... add new web tech to readium code
... design for readium 2, with big cleaning up of rendering
... turning pages is an issue:

<Bert> Readium

<astearns> readium architecture folks should consult https://drafts.css-houdini.org/css-typed-om/ and http://wicg.github.io/CSS-Parser-API/ and give feedback on whether they would be useful to you

Laurent Le Meurs: css columns, css regions, css pages, css fragmentation
... all this is difficult
... houdini is not there yet
... we want something better than our columns polyfill
... better typographic compositing
... service workers
... web workers (auto reindexing)

Laurent Le Meurs: file API
... better MathML support

Ivan Herman: unless you incorporate mathjax

Leonard Rosenthol: this session has been talking about authoring, and even authoring natively
... I'll raise two issues
... one is around a11y
... providing tooling to create a11y content
... the other is responsive design
... providing tools to do that

Daniel Glazman: I first tried to make the UI of the app a11y
... I'm dealing with ARIA-role
... I kept longdesc
... in terms of responsive design, I support MQ, but you have to write them yourself
... the next version will have something like Adobe reflow
... you can design MQs visually

<astearns> (also now in DreamWeaver)

<astearns> hmm - and/or perhaps Muse

Daniel Glazman: code will find a way to insert new mqs
... trying to hide the complexity of responsive design

Luc Audrain: in terms of a11y
... a tool that reads and writes in epub3 may retain designed a11y
... for only digital projects, some requirements (like page numbers) don't apply

Avneesh Singh: what about accessibility metadata
... a11y in the tool is one thing, but metadata is of high importance

Luc Audrain: metadata that describes what features are included?
... that can be derived from the structure of the epub itself in the tool

George Kerscher: once the epub a11y spec is approved, we would like to see the authoring tools to enable users to add a11y metadata
... just like you'd like the user to be able to add alt text when an image is added

Luc Audrain: it should be possible to automate some of this
... and also for a11y metadata that's in ONIX

Alan Stearns: you mentioned the readium architecture reconsiderations
... and that it's too early to rely on houdini stuff
... but it's a perfect time to consider the proposals, determine if they are useful, and provide feedback

Daniel Glazman: in w3c, a constant complaint is that we consider web standards from a browsing point of view, and not the editing view
... this community can really help with that
... publishers are often on the authoring side
... shouldn't a goal be a horizontal editing review

Ivan Herman: if I go back to your first remark , that we are mostly looking at the end users
... but there are also users who create systems on top of the browser for other users
... publishers or resellers who build up systems that are catalogs of books
... what metadata is interesting to be included in a web publication
... much of the metadata is not interesting for the reader, but is interesting for the distributor
... that aspect should be more vocal in use cases
... the traditional web browser world doesn't care about that

Bill McCoy: this means the web needs to take into account more things

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.144 (CVS log)
$Date: 2016/09/23 05:44:16 $