IRC log of dpub on 2016-09-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:55:51 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
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07:55:57 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
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07:56:48 [dauwhe_]
scribenick: dauwhe
07:56:57 [jeff]
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07:57:13 [dauwhe_]
Bill: the agenda is on a wiki
07:57:18 [Ralph]
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07:57:23 [dauwhe_]
... I hope today will be organic in its flow
07:57:34 [dauwhe_]
... if you want to propose a change, do so
07:58:08 [clapierre]
present+ Charles_LaPierre Avneesh_Singh George_Kerscher
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07:58:32 [dauwhe]
present+ dauwhe
07:58:48 [tzviya]
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07:59:04 [Florian]
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07:59:04 [dauwhe]
... if we had a publishing business group, you might imagine this is their meeting, but we don't have such a group... yet
07:59:46 [dauwhe]
jeff: welcome to all of you
07:59:52 [chaals]
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08:00:06 [dauwhe]
... as we explore the combination, we chose our most full-throttled tech conference to introduce this idea
08:00:28 [dauwhe]
... 3.5 years ago, when there was the first joint conference
08:00:30 [Karen]
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08:00:38 [dauwhe]
... we started to talk about a vision of publishing = web
08:00:56 [dauwhe]
... I never imagined that we would conclude so quickly that there was so much we could do together
08:01:10 [dauwhe]
... I'm looking forward to us working together
08:01:31 [hjlee]
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08:01:36 [dauwhe]
mgylling: the first session is about the epub 3 roadmap
08:01:44 [dauwhe]
... we assume you know about epub
08:01:53 [dauwhe]
... this is not epub 101
08:02:06 [dauwhe]
... but more about next steps in light of discussions about the combination
08:02:11 [dauwhe]
... we have four panelists
08:02:16 [dauwhe]
... introductions
08:02:29 [dauwhe]
paul: VP of content for ascend learning
08:02:37 [dauwhe]
rick johnson: vital source
08:02:42 [dauwhe]
tzviya: wiley
08:02:49 [dauwhe]
billk: apex
08:03:04 [dauwhe]
tzviya: i co-chair the epub 3.1 wg and the DPUB IG
08:03:45 [dauwhe]
... I'm going to talk about epub 3.1, how we got there, and where we are going
08:03:52 [dauwhe]
... history of idpf
08:04:00 [glazou]
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08:04:05 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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08:04:05 [dauwhe]
... standards org from 1999 as open ebook forum
08:04:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+ Bill_Kasdorf
08:04:17 [dauwhe]
... lots of members from pubs, and ecosystem
08:04:28 [pbelfanti]
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08:04:33 [dauwhe]
... we promote epub as interoperable delivery format based on owp
08:04:39 [dauwhe]
... [shows timeline]
08:04:43 [pbelfanti]
Present+ Paul Belfanti
08:05:13 [sam]
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08:05:20 [dauwhe]
... epub3 in 2012, and then fixed layout for childrens books, manga, etc
08:05:41 [dauwhe]
... 2013, when adoption was slow because of changes
08:05:54 [dauwhe]
... we worked with BISG to create to test feature support
08:06:04 [dauwhe]
... and to publicly shame reading systems that don't support all of the spec
08:06:24 [dauwhe]
... in 2014, we worked on a profile of epub, epub for education
08:06:38 [dauwhe]
... did 3.0.1 update, which was a bit more than bug fixes
08:06:41 [Avneesh]
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08:06:57 [dauwhe]
... in 2015, we started working on epub 3.1
08:07:01 [Dmitry]
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08:07:07 [dauwhe]
... it's currently in a public draft
08:07:15 [dauwhe]
... sortof like last call at w3c
08:07:20 [dauwhe]
... we're collecting feedback
08:07:28 [dauwhe]
... next step is IP review
08:07:33 [dauwhe]
... goal is final by end of calendar year
08:07:40 [clapierre]
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08:07:45 [dauwhe]
... we originally wanted a larger change
08:07:59 [dauwhe]
... but we pulled back on new features due to impending combination
08:08:09 [takeshi]
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08:08:13 [dauwhe]
... BFF had lots of overlap with PWP, so we put it on ice
08:08:14 [duga]
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08:08:29 [dauwhe]
... we had hoped to allow html serialization, but that too was put on hold
08:08:40 [dauwhe]
... we did get rid of some unused, frustrating features
08:08:52 [dauwhe]
... lots of editorial changes to make the documents more user-friendly
08:09:01 [dauwhe]
... we've also created an a11y spec
08:09:14 [dauwhe]
... you can evaluate and certify for a11y
08:09:27 [dauwhe]
... you can discover a11y features of a given epub
08:09:33 [dauwhe]
... based on wcag 2.0
08:10:14 [dauwhe]
... but there are some differences, for example navigating between html files in epub
08:10:33 [dauwhe]
... same high-level principles as wcag, we hope this stuff eventually migrates to wcag
08:10:47 [dauwhe]
... how's global adoption going?
08:10:52 [dauwhe]
... lots of reading system support
08:11:31 [dauwhe]
glazou: where's blue griffon?!?
08:11:48 [glazou]
s/blue griffon/BlueGriffon
08:11:50 [dauwhe]
tzviya: here's a list of those that support epub3
08:12:00 [dauwhe]
... we have epubcheck
08:12:22 [dauwhe]
... our community takes validation *very* seriously
08:12:42 [dauwhe]
... retailers WONT allow files that fail epubcheck
08:12:54 [dauwhe]
... we do need help maintaining epubcheck
08:13:05 [dauwhe]
... keeps reading systems honest
08:13:20 [dauwhe]
... I'm a volunteer tester, but reading systems can also test themselves
08:13:36 [dauwhe]
... there are EPUB 3 authoring tools, from Indesign to google docs
08:13:58 [Gus]
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08:14:15 [dauwhe]
... epub3 has been holistically adopted in Japan
08:14:43 [dauwhe]
BillM: it's a national standard in South Korea
08:14:57 [dauwhe]
... widely adopted for trade books, manga, education...
08:15:09 [dauwhe]
08:15:19 [dauwhe]
tzviya: timeline
08:15:30 [dauwhe]
... epub 3.1 at end of 2016
08:15:42 [Roque]
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08:15:56 [dauwhe]
... current proposal is for an EPUB 3 Community Group to work on 3.1 maintenance
08:16:03 [boris_anthony]
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08:16:06 [dauwhe]
mgylling: let's save questions for the end
08:16:25 [dauwhe]
Rick: it's an understatement to say it's popular in education
08:16:33 [dauwhe]
... I'm from VitalSource
08:16:51 [dauwhe]
... we do a *lot* of business in education
08:17:00 [dauwhe]
... 18 million textbooks
08:17:04 [dauwhe]
... we're involved in the WG
08:17:25 [dauwhe]
... we do creation tools, integration tools, analytics, learning process, reading systems
08:17:58 [dauwhe]
... broad content support. Ingram is our partner, we work with 58,000 imprints
08:18:04 [clapierre]
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08:18:09 [dauwhe]
... we support lots of formats, but we love EPUB
08:18:16 [dauwhe]
... it's because of mobile devices
08:18:30 [dauwhe]
... students love mobile devices, need content that reflows and is accessible
08:18:35 [duga_]
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08:18:47 [dauwhe]
... they like highly interactive web sites, made into books via epub
08:19:14 [dauwhe]
... a year ago, five of our top 100 titles were epub
08:19:32 [dauwhe]
... now two-thirds of our top 100 are epub, PDF is now a backlist format
08:19:55 [dauwhe]
... epub reading is mostly in the browser
08:20:07 [dauwhe]
... and a lot of the usage is offline
08:20:23 [dauwhe]
... and epub is great for that
08:20:32 [dauwhe]
... we also do content creation
08:20:55 [dauwhe]
... we have our own tool focused on making it simple for students/faculty to create content, born accessible
08:21:06 [dauwhe]
... it's all wcag AA conformant
08:21:25 [dauwhe]
... EPUB is not a future tech, it's a fact in the marketplace
08:21:30 [bobbytung]
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08:21:45 [dauwhe]
... it's a best practice for getting web tech into the education marketplace
08:21:50 [dauwhe]
mgylling: thanks Rick!
08:22:06 [dauwhe]
pbelfanti: I'm going to talk about epub for education spec
08:22:06 [SteveZ]
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08:22:13 [dauwhe]
... why did we create this?
08:22:24 [dauwhe]
... there was a logjam in the industry
08:22:25 [SteveZ]
08:22:36 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya
08:22:37 [dauwhe]
... the overhead was too high, too many variants of the file format
08:22:52 [dauwhe]
... you'd have to create 15 versions of every epub for the various channels
08:22:57 [dauwhe]
... and features were missing
08:23:05 [dauwhe]
... the development costs were high
08:23:11 [dauwhe]
... and there wasn't enough content.
08:23:17 [dauwhe]
... it was a vicious cycle.
08:23:35 [dauwhe]
... from a publisher standpoint, a standard format gives you
08:23:39 [dauwhe]
... economies of scale
08:23:43 [ivan]
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08:23:44 [dauwhe]
... sourcing flexibility
08:23:47 [dauwhe]
... consistency
08:23:54 [dauwhe]
... reduces overhead
08:24:01 [dauwhe]
... you can focus on product enhancements
08:24:09 [dauwhe]
... for the platform provider
08:24:18 [dauwhe]
... more volume of content
08:24:23 [dauwhe]
... for the educator
08:24:32 [dauwhe]
... content can integrate with LMS
08:24:36 [ivan]
Meeting: Publishing Community Meeting at TPAC 2016
08:25:02 [tzviya]
chair: Markus
08:25:14 [dauwhe]
... easily repurposed, trackable
08:25:22 [dauwhe]
... easily deployed
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08:25:31 [olivexu]
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08:25:36 [dauwhe]
... for the learner, it's more responsive
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08:25:46 [dauwhe]
... has richer experiences leading to better outcomes
08:25:58 [dauwhe]
... can be used anywhere, inside or outside classroom
08:26:00 [Florian]
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08:26:11 [dauwhe]
... will get more affordable
08:26:17 [dauwhe]
... what is the edupub alliance?
08:26:25 [dauwhe]
... a group of like-minded organizations
08:26:35 [dauwhe]
... driven by IDPF, IMS Global, W3C, BISG
08:26:48 [dauwhe]
... pooled resources for a common goal
08:26:57 [dauwhe]
... a lightweight structure based on existing standards
08:27:19 [dauwhe]
... EDUPUB = Open Web Standards + Learning mangement + ???
08:27:27 [clapierre]
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08:27:42 [dauwhe]
... it includes everything that the contet needs for education
08:27:54 [dauwhe]
... integrate IMS, allow annotations, interactivity
08:28:12 [dauwhe]
... has an education-tuned semantic vocabulary to describe these complex structures
08:28:28 [dauwhe]
... aligned with readium to help implementation
08:28:40 [dauwhe]
... interactivity, connectivity, complex design, and a11y
08:28:47 [dauwhe]
... it's a global alliance
08:29:09 [dauwhe]
... the first workshop included more than 100 people, from china, brazil, europe, all over the globe
08:29:35 [dauwhe]
... different regions have different needs... learning styles, layout requirements, horizontal vs vertical
08:29:46 [dauwhe]
... where do we go from here?
08:30:04 [dauwhe]
... epub for edu is somewhat on hold in spec development because of 3.1
08:30:09 [dauwhe]
... focusing on implementations
08:30:14 [dauwhe]
... spec is in public draft
08:30:45 [dauwhe]
... will meet in February 2017 to do status check and work on next steps
08:31:06 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: I'm shocked that my colleagues have not gone over time :)
08:31:09 [clapierre]
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08:31:16 [dauwhe]
... BISG is the book industry study group
08:31:28 [dauwhe]
... we represent the entire supply chain, not just publishers
08:31:40 [dauwhe]
... historically more trade-oriented
08:31:56 [dauwhe]
... aggregators, tech companies, retailers, service providers
08:32:00 [ivan]
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08:32:12 [dauwhe]
... we're not an advocacy organization like AAP
08:32:30 [dauwhe]
... BISG was an early supporter of EPUB
08:32:45 [dauwhe]
... we work hand-in-hand with IDPF to promote EPUB
08:32:54 [dauwhe]
... it's not just books (everyone drink)
08:32:57 [ivan]
08:33:07 [dauwhe]
... we have a reciprocal membership with w3c and IDPF
08:33:32 [bkardell_]
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08:33:48 [dauwhe]
... we put together working groups that work on publications to help encourage implemenation and adoption
08:33:54 [dauwhe]
... talking about edupub
08:34:13 [dauwhe]
... so paul chaired a bisg group to write "Getting Started with EDUPUB"
08:34:40 [dauwhe]
... to help people get started
08:34:44 [dauwhe]
... it's due for an update now
08:34:58 [dauwhe]
... we did a quickstart guide to accessible publishing
08:35:16 [dauwhe]
... it's gotten incredible attention and update, partly due to our friends from vital source
08:35:23 [dauwhe]
... got it translated into many languages
08:35:58 [dauwhe]
... a big priority for BISG is a11y
08:36:08 [dauwhe]
... many people in the room helped drived this
08:36:17 [tzviya]
08:36:24 [dauwhe]
... it's 70 pages long, but the quickstart part is 20 pages
08:36:56 [dauwhe]
... if you have a properly created epub3, you're already 90 percent of the way to accessibility
08:37:04 [dauwhe]
... i also want to mention
08:37:19 [dauwhe]
... it's a collaboration between BISG, IDPF, and DAISY
08:37:24 [dauwhe]
... DAISY did the heavy lifting
08:37:39 [dauwhe]
... aimed at the misconception that epub3 was not getting adopted
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08:37:44 [dauwhe]
... it was, but not every feature
08:38:00 [dauwhe]
... so we needed to see which RSs supported a particular feature
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08:38:24 [dauwhe]
(showing on screen)
08:39:03 [Ralph]
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08:40:14 [dauwhe]
... lots of pubs don't distribute to the retail supply chain
08:40:32 [dauwhe]
... it's easy to use, nice interface with lots of details about feature support
08:40:51 [dauwhe]
... and there's now testing for a11y support
08:41:04 [dauwhe]
... which is more complex due to interactions of reading system, AT, and operating system
08:41:18 [dauwhe]
... so this information is based on knowledgeable users reporting on tests
08:41:30 [dauwhe]
... this is useful for procuring tech for schools
08:41:42 [tzviya]
08:41:44 [dauwhe]
mgylling: four minutes for questions
08:42:31 [dauwhe]
laurent: what is the relationship between epubtest and ...?
08:42:36 [astearns]
08:42:43 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: epubtest is about the reading system
08:42:48 [dauwhe]
... epubcheck is about the epub file
08:43:06 [dauwhe]
billM: there are also actual test files on github
08:43:22 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: this is useful for reading system devs
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08:43:36 [dauwhe]
mgylling: epubtest test suite is manual tests
08:43:46 [dauwhe]
... that's why it's expensive and painful to run
08:44:04 [dauwhe]
... epub reading systems don't have a standard api, unlike browsers, so we can't do automated testing
08:44:09 [dauwhe]
tzviya: please help out
08:44:32 [dauwhe]
George: the a11y test book does a great job, but we will add more titles to check math and advanced features
08:44:54 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: everything we've talked about is a work in progress
08:45:05 [dauwhe]
mgylling: more questions? we have thirty seconds.
08:45:12 [dauwhe]
... let's switch the people
08:45:15 [dauwhe]
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08:47:50 [dauwhe]
ivan: I try to be bolder than markus, and ask panelists to be short
08:47:57 [dauwhe]
... I expect questions
08:48:12 [dauwhe]
... this session is more about future work, future directions
08:48:18 [dauwhe]
... after the combination is done
08:48:48 [dauwhe]
... just to indicate how flexible things are, what we were calling pwp may even change it's name
08:48:55 [dauwhe]
... this is movable ground
08:49:07 [dauwhe]
... the idea is to give an overview of where we want to go
08:49:20 [dauwhe]
... i will begin with markus, who was one of the instigators
08:49:46 [dauwhe]
... garth is the latest addition to the co-chair list
08:49:54 [dauwhe]
... tzviya is the stable point
08:50:01 [dauwhe]
... and bill moves everything behind the scenes
08:50:08 [dauwhe]
BillM: I'm the unstable point
08:50:27 [dauwhe]
ivan: Markus will talk about background
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08:51:00 [dauwhe]
mgylling: jeff mentioned the initial workshop in february 2013 in NYC
08:51:08 [dauwhe]
... the interest group was created six months later
08:51:28 [dauwhe]
... initially, the scope and ambition was exploratory to understand the landscape
08:51:43 [dauwhe]
... to make the connnection between OWP and the ebook industry more direct
08:52:15 [dauwhe]
... there has always been some distance between owp and portable doc formats
08:52:24 [dauwhe]
... we wanted to understand the gaps
08:52:32 [dauwhe]
... which problems have been solved, which haven't
08:52:39 [dauwhe]
... the first 2 years were in this mode
08:52:46 [dauwhe]
... we did research, we published reports
08:52:52 [dauwhe]
... some are ongoing projects
08:53:04 [dauwhe]
... Dave Cramer has requirements for text layout doc
08:53:10 [dauwhe]
... and a CSS priorities doc
08:53:18 [dauwhe]
... we did a gap analysis of wcag 2.0
08:53:26 [dauwhe]
... we did use cases for annotations for dpub
08:54:00 [dauwhe]
... the initial explorative mode has changed to working on PWP
08:54:15 [dauwhe]
... now we're looking more pragmaticallly to that future
08:54:34 [dauwhe]
... so the IG can provide the fodder needed by a new working group within w3c
08:54:46 [dauwhe]
... we've been working on use cases since the dawn of time
08:55:48 [Karen]
scribenick: Karen
08:56:07 [Karen]
Garth: Co-chair of PWP Interest Group
08:56:12 [Karen]
Tzviya: you just renamed it!
08:56:16 [Rick_Johnson]
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08:56:20 [Karen]
Garth: Sorry, Digital Publishing Interest Group!
08:56:25 [laurentlemeur]
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08:56:27 [Karen]
…and Chairman of the Board of IDPF
08:56:32 [Rick_Johnson]
08:56:38 [Karen]
…I am either persistent or stubborn in this space
08:56:38 [laurentlemeur]
08:56:50 [Karen]
…I started in 1999…when just a few companies were doing this
08:57:01 [Karen]
…we were hunting around with NY publishers to find content
08:57:18 [Karen]
…it dawned on us to have publishers deliver a new format was not workable
08:57:31 [Karen]
…this lead to open ebook format which then led to IDPF and EPUB
08:57:38 [Karen]
…but even then it was based on Web technologies
08:57:42 [Karen]
…there was HTML and some CSS
08:57:46 [Karen]
…we did a package and a manifest
08:57:58 [Karen]
…This has been moving for quite some time to get to EPUB3.1
08:58:08 [Karen]
…move from @ world to where we are now
08:58:16 [Karen]
…We don't do our best when we invent from whole cloth
08:58:22 [Karen]
…exception is the EPUB package file
08:58:32 [Karen]
…Other things we invented from whole cloth but were not as successful
08:58:40 [Karen]
…as we brought in more and more stuff from the Web
08:58:45 [Karen]
…and we have been continuing in that direction
08:58:57 [Karen]
…as we consider a potential merger, with DPub group
08:59:10 [Karen]
…I will let Tzviya talk to that group more because she has much more history than I
08:59:18 [Karen]
…As we look at what a Portable Web Publication is
08:59:26 [Karen]
…there is a list of capabilities of what a PWP can be
08:59:36 [Karen]
…it's wholly contained, packaged, layer of technologies being used
08:59:39 [Karen]
…based on OWP
08:59:46 [Karen]
…and there has been a bit of tensions
08:59:52 [Karen]
…as we published our use cases recently
08:59:59 [Karen]
…between the browser community and the browser community
09:00:12 [Karen]
…EPUB has always been this zipped thing; never really existed as a Web site
09:00:23 [Karen]
…some tension with browsers and we want to render this natively
09:00:26 [Karen]
…has been this zip file
09:00:31 [Karen]
…what feels like an interesting
09:00:42 [Karen]
…what Ivan would say was a "kumbaya moment"
09:00:55 [Karen]
…on Tuesday [Bill clarified]
09:01:08 [Karen]
…whether P stands for portable or packaged is unclear
09:01:17 [Karen]
…but a lot of agreement is publications
09:01:25 [Karen]
…maybe packaged file gets into more Web manifest
09:01:31 [boris_anthony]
Layers that Garth refered to:
09:01:32 [boris_anthony]
09:01:32 [Karen]
…a lot of interesting technologies at W3C
09:01:33 [boris_anthony]
bounded package of media
09:01:34 [boris_anthony]
in web-standard formats
09:01:35 [boris_anthony]
addressable by standard Web protocols
09:01:36 [boris_anthony]
and consumable by standard Web tools.
09:01:40 [Karen]
…Dave working on interesting things
09:01:52 [Karen]
…Hope this will be publsihed on web, can be viewed online
09:01:59 [Karen]
…whether single or multiple
09:02:06 [Karen]
…maybe larger value than one
09:02:15 [Karen]
…one would be closely related to where we are with EPUB today
09:02:19 [Karen]
…where we have a whole industry
09:02:32 [Karen]
…We have to find a path to move this forward, the PWP into the Web world
09:02:43 [Karen]
…Earlier there was the browser friendly format that we decided not to move forward
09:02:50 [Karen]
…in order to bring it to the PWP effort
09:02:53 [Karen]
…I was a late comer to that
09:02:58 [Karen]
…think about how to round trip it
09:03:03 [Karen]
…Dave not throwing things at me
09:03:16 [Karen]
…There were experiements of taking packaging into HTML
09:03:20 [Karen]
…will serve us well
09:03:30 [Karen]
…But I will be the stick in the mud that we have to support the existing industry
09:03:43 [Karen]
…now Tzviya can talk
09:03:49 [laurentlemeur]
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09:03:52 [Karen]
Tzviya: Garth picks things up quickly
09:03:59 [Karen]
…I'll give a brief background on the use cases
09:04:12 [Karen]
…It's not covert, but we have been laying the groundwork for a Working Group
09:04:19 [Karen]
…we need more information about what we need to do
09:04:30 [Karen]
…We have put together this use case document that we new we needed to do
09:04:44 [Karen]
…what we did was intentionally agnostic about the kinds of technologies we would be using
09:04:47 [Karen]
…In the last two weeks
09:04:50 [Karen]
Ivan; one week
09:04:56 [Karen]
Tzviya: seems like two
09:05:17 [Karen]
…in the past amount of time we have had a number of comments that "all of this technology exists" so use it
09:05:32 [Karen]
…one of members of groups said, look at WebApp manifest, look at Service Workers
09:05:40 [Karen]
…last TPAC we spoke with Jay Archibald
09:05:49 [Karen]
…on his way home he built a crude system based on Service Workers
09:06:03 [Karen]
…Dave took it and build a crude system based on Service workers
09:06:19 [Karen]
…there is a Moby Dick book in there and a Bible
09:06:28 [Karen]
…files that a bit different from what Web world knows
09:06:36 [Karen]
…they need to be first class citizens
09:06:43 [Karen]
…Remember MathML…it needs to function
09:06:54 [Ralph]
s/Jay Ar/Jake Ar/
09:07:02 [Karen]
…We need to bring publications to same level of respect and support as other HTML documents
09:07:13 [Karen]
…We need to figure out what this means in the world of service workers, web app manifests
09:07:26 [Karen]
…on this year's, next year's and three years' from now's Web
09:07:32 [Karen]
…Looks like we are headed in the right direction
09:07:48 [Karen]
…Sometimes we use different words or terms that are different from the people in eWeb platforms group
09:08:03 [Karen]
…I may call package that someone else calls off the web
09:08:19 [Karen]
…we have a lot of work to do, but the direction we are headed in is something like a Web publication
09:08:26 [Karen]
…that I can just open in a Web browser
09:08:37 [Karen]
…There is a conference called Books and Browsers
09:08:44 [Karen]
…I want to be able to open my book in a browser
09:08:52 [Karen]
…But opening offline is very important to our industry
09:09:01 [Karen]
…I need to be able to take my book and read whenever I want
09:09:08 [Karen]
…whether in a plane or library
09:09:15 [Karen]
…I need to be able to do whatever I want
09:09:21 [Karen]
…We have to figure this out and be able to work together
09:09:32 [Karen]
…We have a lot of work ahead of us and get to that "kumbaya moment"
09:09:53 [Karen]
Bill McCoy: I am going to talk about the people issues and the risks and what we have to be fearful of
09:10:00 [Karen]
…and not talk about technical solutions
09:10:07 [Karen]
…I am very interested in future solutions and technology
09:10:16 [Karen]
…but today I want to talk about the people side
09:10:36 [Karen]
…To get to the Nirvhana that Tzviya talked about
09:10:46 [Karen]
…where end users can publish easily to the Web
09:10:58 [Karen]
…and big corporations can publish to Web for online and offline distributions
09:11:02 [Karen]
…and it's all Nirvanna
09:11:11 [Karen]
…Thanks to the publishing industry engagement
09:11:18 [Karen]
…other parts of the Web will advance more rapidly
09:11:25 [Karen]
…like Web payments, IoT, Accessibility
09:11:32 [Karen]
…that is the Paradise we want to get to
09:11:37 [duga]
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09:11:39 [Karen]
…but it's not going to happen quickly
09:11:51 [Karen]
…this seamless online/offline may not happen
09:11:55 [Karen]
…tech standards work is slo
09:11:56 [Karen]
09:12:08 [Karen]
…some publishing industry people are not aware of what is going on
09:12:14 [Karen]
…we have risk for disappointment
09:12:20 [Karen]
…we think we are going after paradise
09:12:29 [Karen]
…but we are slogging along to achieve some minor things
09:12:34 [Karen]
…but it's totally worthwhile
09:12:41 [Karen]
…the fact that Nirvanna won't happen
09:12:48 [Karen]
…don't mistake a clear view for a short distance
09:12:54 [Karen]
…this is not going to be a short distance
09:13:01 [Karen]
…We should be very happy if in the next two years
09:13:08 [Karen]
…my slides today are hand coded HTL
09:13:15 [Karen]
09:13:24 [Karen]
…if we can take some incremental steps
09:13:29 [Karen]
…for publications on the Web
09:13:36 [Karen]
…and tell if a browser supports MathML
09:13:44 [Karen]
…and bridge gap between accessible content or not
09:13:53 [Karen]
…make things closer to online world
09:14:10 [Karen]
…without achieving the 'grand unified theory' like Einstein who did not achieve that
09:14:14 [Karen]
…we can approach
09:14:21 [Karen]
…we are on the low slope of the asotope
09:14:30 [Karen]
…I want to encourage us all to be wary of reject shock
09:14:48 [Karen]
…that people from publishing industries come in and feel they cannot do it
09:15:01 [Karen]
…W3C understands concepts of "bikeshedding' and "not invented here"
09:15:13 [Karen]
…but EPUB people may like a paint color and want not to change
09:15:22 [Karen]
…we need to drink beer together and it's going to take years
09:15:29 [Ralph]
[ -> "bikeshedding" ]
09:15:33 [Karen]
…but we have to recognize it's going to take some head butting and challenges
09:15:45 [liam]
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09:15:47 [Karen]
…but we will work towards this Kumbaya
09:15:50 [Karen]
ack Daniel
09:16:06 [Karen]
Daniel: One of greatest things from the IDPF-W3C merger is the investment of browsers into the W3C groups
09:16:16 [Karen]
…and more importantly the investment of the publishers into the W3C groups
09:16:28 [Karen]
…companies are not always interested in the "minor" uses of the Web
09:16:37 [Karen]
…may not be interesting for them to follow
09:16:45 [Karen]
…a "dinosaur" of the past
09:16:58 [Karen]
…if you can join these groups like Web Platform that are interesting for publications
09:17:03 [Karen]
…then you will have much greater weight
09:17:07 [astearns]
setting the expectation at incremental improvement is immensely important
09:17:10 [Karen]
…if you are not there, it will be harder for us
09:17:19 [Karen]
…liaising is good for two different standards bodies
09:17:26 [Karen]
…but post merger you have to be everywhere
09:17:28 [tzviya]
09:17:35 [Karen]
…if EPUB is successful it will have to come into W3C
09:17:41 [Karen]
Tzviya: I agree
09:17:46 [Karen]
George: your name?
09:17:53 [Karen]
Daniel: Daniel Glazman
09:17:57 [Karen]
Leonard Rosenthal
09:18:12 [Karen]
Leonard: The title of the panel does not reflect discussion
09:18:24 [Karen]
…group has focused on publications
09:18:33 [Karen]
…how do you focus on publications and documents in that scope
09:18:40 [Karen]
…you talked about the outreach to global publishers
09:18:49 [Karen]
…and what about outreach to the global publishers of documents
09:18:54 [Karen]
Bill: you are right
09:19:03 [Karen]
…I tried to explain there are many publishing industries
09:19:19 [Karen]
…I tend to avoid document in W3C land that we tend to get shackled with
09:19:28 [Karen]
…I want to make different version from Dave Cramer's
09:19:42 [Karen]
…with soccer schedules and different things from PDF land
09:20:03 [Karen]
…I laughed yesterday after the mad scramble yesterday, it took hours for the schedule to get up on the Web
09:20:05 [Karen]
…even at the W3C
09:20:24 [Karen]
…whereas if someone had just put up a PDF it would have taken 10 minutes
09:20:34 [Karen]
…we need to make it easier and to democratize
09:20:44 [Karen]
…I am excited about discussion from Tuesday about descoping
09:20:48 [Karen]
…we need to be very careful
09:20:55 [Karen]
…just because big publishers are joining
09:21:04 [Karen]
…communication and publishing is a grassroots thing
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09:21:14 [Karen]
…and we cannot be driven only by commercial and book publishers
09:21:21 [Karen]
Garth: I think it's a terminology issue
09:21:26 [Karen]
…I do say publications all the time
09:21:38 [Karen]
…I think that documents, books are children of publications
09:21:49 [Karen]
…an example, no one is going to write Moby Dick in Google docs
09:21:59 [Karen]
…they are going to write a newsletter or in InDesign
09:22:04 [Karen]
…that has expect in EPUB
09:22:16 [Karen]
…smaller things in Google docs which has export to EPUB
09:22:24 [Karen]
Bill: Wiley and Random House don't care
09:22:33 [Karen]
Tzviya: We do care; our authors write in whatever format they want
09:22:42 [Karen]
…we care about documents, but people will do whatever they want
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09:22:56 [Karen]
…Dave reminds me I cannot tell James Patterson how to write
09:23:04 [Karen]
…People tell us it's too hard to work on EPUB
09:23:13 [Karen]
…To quote Tim from last night, we have to keep things simple
09:23:21 [Karen]
…Whatever we create, it has to be easy to do this
09:23:38 [Karen]
…If it's easy, then people will write their schedules or Moby Dick or their Nobel winning papers in this format
09:23:44 [Karen]
…and maybe Math will be part of it
09:23:54 [Karen]
Bill: If the word publisher is out of picture and you are just an author
09:24:05 [Karen]
…kids' soccer letter just has an 'author'
09:24:17 [Karen]
…the use case of 'author equals publisher' cannot be in the back
09:24:21 [Karen]
Ivan: other questions
09:24:26 [Karen]
Steve Zilles, Adobe
09:24:37 [Karen]
Steve: I like the notion of a browser friendly format that is off-lineable
09:24:52 [Karen]
…when you have a package it is relatively easy to ensure security of the package
09:25:09 [Karen]
…We are living in a world where everyone is trying to break into your system, especially if it's an active device
09:25:23 [Karen]
…how do you see providing protection to these "BFFs"
09:25:28 [Karen]
…Browser friendly formats
09:25:39 [Karen]
Bill: we are not going to reinvent the Web security model, as Mike Smith said
09:25:46 [Karen]
Leonard: Mike and I keep challenging that
09:25:54 [Karen]
…not reinvent Web Security model
09:26:00 [Karen]
…I agree, but it needs to be extended
09:26:08 [Karen]
Bill: Steve was talking about unpackaged case
09:26:14 [Karen]
…in packaged case we have it solved
09:26:19 [Karen]
…but we need to think about that more
09:26:32 [Karen]
Leonard: What PDF and EPUB do is not compatable with the Web security model
09:26:43 [Karen]
…if we want on and off web security, we have to maintain that model
09:26:59 [Karen]
…it's a model people understand and it's standardized in W3C
09:27:10 [Karen]
…It's absolutely TBD and we need to spend time on this
09:27:29 [Karen]
Garth: with protesters not there now, there is encryption and security around that
09:27:39 [Karen]
…which gets you walled gardens that are bad for end users of the content
09:27:53 [Karen]
…it's unclear whether these efforts are going to be steps towards resolving these problems
09:27:57 [Karen]
…there is room for evolution
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09:28:06 [Karen]
Bill: important point we glossed over
09:28:20 [Karen]
…that should be done from the top down
09:28:24 [Karen]
…we have this packaged thing
09:28:31 [Karen]
…have to do work from bottom up and top down
09:28:37 [Karen]
…what is the minimum to do from the online world
09:28:46 [Karen]
Rick Johnson, IngramContent
09:29:02 [Karen]
Rick: We have two relatively mature industries coming together with many assumptions
09:29:13 [Karen]
…we'll have to unpack these and not put stakes in the ground now
09:29:18 [Karen]
…have to keep working on these
09:29:24 [Karen]
Bill Kasdorf, BISG
09:29:30 [Karen]
Bill: I have spoken about convergence
09:29:37 [glazou]
09:29:39 [Karen]
…it means both sides have value and both sides have to move
09:29:44 [Karen]
…how much we take for granted
09:29:52 [Karen]
…in EPUB children's books
09:30:01 [Karen]
…behind that is technology that came out years ago
09:30:05 [Karen]
…like accessibility
09:30:11 [Karen]
George: that was from W3C
09:30:24 [Karen]
BillK: now the publishing community is not thinking about accessibility we just do @
09:30:32 [Karen]
…another obvious example is Flash
09:30:35 [Karen]
…we don't need it now
09:30:42 [tzviya]
09:30:43 [Karen]
…but a few years ago that's all publishers used
09:30:58 [tzviya]
ack gl
09:30:58 [Karen]
…Real publishers is getting us toward that Nirvanna; we are getting those bits and pieces
09:31:13 [Karen]
Daniel: there is an area of difference between IDPF and W3C that is mentioned but not often enough
09:31:20 [Karen]
…because it is going to hit us quite fast
09:31:23 [Karen]
…and that is testing
09:31:30 [Karen]
Ivan; We did discussed
09:31:43 [Karen]
Daniel: ok, but Testing takes a lot of time and energy
09:31:49 [Karen]
…who is going to discuss it and how
09:31:53 [Karen]
…it is going to be a pain
09:32:02 [Karen]
Ivan: we started to discuss this on Tuesday afternoon
09:32:09 [Karen]
…this has to be discussed in the WG
09:32:15 [Karen]
…in an IG it is premature
09:32:22 [Karen]
…but we will need to put that as part of WG
09:32:31 [Karen]
Daniel: there is a corollary question
09:32:35 [Karen]
…maintain 3.1
09:32:42 [Karen]
…but what is going to happen to testing?
09:32:46 [Karen]
…we have to work together
09:32:52 [Karen]
Ivan; I think this will be part of the details
09:33:05 [Karen]
…when the discussions continue between the two organizations
09:33:19 [Karen]
…testing has to be taken over as part of the maintenance at W3C
09:33:31 [Karen]
Bill: some of this is insufficient in terms of W3C standards
09:33:39 [Karen]
…bringing these things together is not going to be easy
09:33:52 [Karen]
…like bringing together people from France and England
09:34:00 [Karen]
…this WG focus is not clear yet
09:34:13 [Karen]
…cannot imagine it as a clean hand-over
09:34:19 [Karen]
…premature for the unified roadmap
09:34:23 [Karen]
…but it must include testing
09:34:26 [Karen]
Luc, Hachette
09:34:29 [Karen]
Luc: we have to keep in mind
09:34:38 [Karen]
…we are some here from the publishing industry but we are very few
09:34:56 [Karen]
…book publishing has hundreds of years of history and quality
09:35:03 [Karen]
…there is no roadmap for future
09:35:10 [Karen]
…we are aware of OWP and standards
09:35:22 [Karen]
…for digital publishing
09:35:30 [Karen]
…we achieved digpub with EPUB
09:35:48 [Karen]
…I am afraid that not many people in the publishing industry are aware of the challenges and what is at stake with this mering
09:35:51 [Karen]
09:35:55 [Karen]
…it's important to keep in mind
09:35:58 [Karen]
…we are willing to go
09:36:03 [Karen]
…to transform this industry
09:36:19 [Karen]
..not only in terms of marketing but also in terms of techniques to create and to bring the author's ideas to the market
09:36:29 [Karen]
Ivan: Shall we take a break?
09:36:36 [Karen]
Garth: thank you for this discussion
09:36:41 [Karen]
Bill: we are back here at 11:00am
09:36:45 [Karen]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:36:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
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10:04:25 [leonardr]
George: president of IDPF and member of the DPIG
10:04:39 [leonardr]
Judy: director of web accessibility initiative of W3C
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10:04:54 [dauwhe]
scribenick: leonardr
10:05:10 [leonardr]
Charles: tech lead fro born a18y at benetech and chair of a18y documents
10:05:22 [leonardr]
George: preparing this presentation for 20 years (or longer).
10:05:34 [leonardr]
..back in the 80's there was movement towards dig books in a18y community.
10:05:52 [leonardr]
...working with SGML folks which morphed towards HTML 1.0
10:06:23 [leonardr]
...the blind community was supported by libraries and it "simply" needed to transition to digital (from analog)
10:06:36 [leonardr]
...lots happeend before eBooks in '99
10:06:56 [ivan]
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10:07:01 [leonardr]
...same people also were excited in web a18y as well - '97
10:07:13 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:07:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
10:07:29 [leonardr]
...I was asked to help steer the web a18y back then
10:07:55 [leonardr]
...and that was part of why DAISY chose the web technology, becaus there was already a connection
10:08:11 [laurentlemeur]
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10:08:20 [leonardr]
...I believe that web a18y was always guiding the IDPF work
10:08:49 [leonardr]
...moving fwd to when EPUB 3.1 work started, there was an oppt to start a specific doc around EPUB & A18y
10:08:57 [leonardr]
...Avneesh and Charles chair that
10:09:11 [leonardr]
...there was also a piece of work around WCAG and electronic publishing
10:09:32 [leonardr]
Charles: wht we wanted to do was find gaps in WCAG that werent covered in DigiPub
10:09:54 [leonardr]
...went through all techniques and found holes that DAISY had most addressed, especially around skippability, etc.
10:10:10 [leonardr]
...needed to shine spotlight on these gaps
10:10:22 [leonardr]
...also found other areas such as annotations, positioning, etc. that are already being worked on
10:10:35 [leonardr]
...but things like Math are kicking off in new groups
10:10:46 [hjlee]
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10:10:55 [leonardr]
...and then put these things inot the guidelines and a Note was published
10:11:24 [leonardr]
George: conformance side, heard from many others about for conformance of RS
10:11:51 [leonardr]
...on a18y, but creating a test book with no errors that could be used to eval the RS on a18y
10:12:19 [leonardr]
...32 evaluations so far on RS+AT (eg. NVDA + ADE)
10:12:24 [olivexu]
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10:13:08 [leonardr]
...but we did with the EPUB A18y spec, was to use WCAG (no new wheels!) but add new success criteria
10:13:38 [leonardr]
...this is a public spec for all of EPUB, not jsut 3.1
10:14:05 [leonardr] terms of conformance, Charles tell us about metadata and how we're using it
10:14:16 [mgylling]
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10:14:26 [leonardr]
Charles: in our guidelnes, we have discoverability enabled publications
10:14:33 [leonardr] collaboration with
10:15:04 [leonardr]
...additional metadata per publication that enables discoverability of a18y features (or hazards) on a given publication
10:15:23 [leonardr] textual, visual, auditory, tactile, etc.
10:15:59 [leonardr]
...a textbook with a few images with no alt=text, would require a visual and textual to consume it. BUT if there was alt-text, textual only is fine
10:16:15 [tzviya]
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10:16:34 [leonardr]
...also have metadata that enables 3rd parties to claim conformance to XXXX standard (and what version of same)
10:16:47 [leonardr]
...and who did the certification (if any)
10:16:58 [leonardr]
...there is also a summary (human readable) about a18y
10:17:32 [leonardr]
George: AccessModeSufficient - if you have text, that means it can xformed to text->speech, to braille, etc.
10:17:55 [leonardr]
...if you have that, you can probably access all the content in just about any AT method
10:18:24 [leonardr]
...certification metadata is again about making a claim. You MUST it to claim it - either by publisher or 3rd party
10:18:47 [leonardr]
...this enables market to determine what is accessible and what is not
10:18:50 [leonardr]
...very use for EDU
10:19:08 [leonardr]
...this is all work that was done before
10:19:35 [leonardr]
Judy: I am speaking to people from IDPF to fill you in on W3C work
10:19:48 [leonardr]
...even though we've been doing a18y together for a while
10:20:18 [leonardr]
...please reach out to me if you have stuff you'd like to address in a18y or publishing (myself or other staff)
10:20:39 [leonardr]
...W3C is a vendor neutral consuritum to develop standards for the web - "Web for All"
10:21:12 [leonardr]
...Open Web Platform (based on HTML5), including A18y as a core component
10:21:26 [leonardr] that every spec is reviewed for a18y considerations
10:22:20 [leonardr]
...Web Accessibility nitiative has been around for a long time. currently undergoing reorg to distribute the work
10:22:54 [leonardr]
...cross-disability and aging, cross-technology conerns, developerment of specs, education, etc.
10:23:24 [leonardr]
...web a18y including vision, hearing, motor, speech, cognitive and much more...
10:23:46 [leonardr]
...publishing is not visual but its many more such as cognitive, learning, motor, etc.
10:23:48 [boris_anthony]
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10:24:22 [leonardr]
...there has been a series of pub & a18y efforts already
10:25:02 [leonardr]
...and looking forward to building even more, epecially for things such as ARIA
10:25:28 [leonardr]
...WCAG is a document that is considered a core standard world wide
10:25:36 [leonardr]
...not just for the web
10:26:00 [leonardr]
...content should be percievale, operable, understandable and robust
10:26:32 [leonardr] of the big items on WCAG is that is has a layered design so that below those key thigns there are guidelines towards make them happen
10:26:42 [leonardr]
...and there are tons of great examples we've already done
10:27:05 [leonardr]
...and then you finally have success criteria that define if you have actually achieved your goals
10:27:27 [leonardr]
...and most of them are technology neutral since the techniques are per-technology
10:28:00 [leonardr]
..."you can use WCAG to make anything accessible"
10:28:08 [leonardr]
...some current work in a18y at W3C
10:28:34 [leonardr]
...update to WCAG 2.0 with expanded coverage in cognative and low vision
10:28:47 [leonardr]
...ATAG and UAAG completed in 2015
10:29:00 [leonardr]
...exploring needs for a possible WCAG 3.0 in a future
10:29:56 [leonardr]
...also looking into authoring tool a18y for producing a18y content AND how to do any authoring accessibly
10:30:32 [leonardr]
...there is a bunch of conformance testing around WCAG 2.
10:30:49 [leonardr]
...human expert tests, semi-automated tests and fully automated tests
10:32:36 [leonardr] going on in a CG around even more automated testing
10:33:02 [leonardr]
...that is now a TF in the WCAG group to work on an actual test harness and procedures
10:33:34 [leonardr]
...then see if we can move some semi-autos into autos using the new framework
10:33:55 [leonardr] is "Accessibility Conformance Testing" TF
10:35:04 [leonardr]
...WCAG 2 has a LOT of supporting education materials to understading what it is, why we have it, how to implement it, etc
10:35:41 [leonardr]
...also many 3rd parties with materials as well
10:35:53 [ivan]
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10:35:56 [leonardr]
10:36:07 [leonardr]
...has all the material you will need
10:36:18 [leonardr]
George; BISG quick start guide is a great initial rererence
10:36:34 [leonardr] the appendix there is additional support rererences that point to W3
10:36:59 [leonardr]
...DAISY was given a grant by Google to make a impact
10:37:17 [leonardr]
...establish a baseline of accessibility and then build tools for testing and compliance
10:37:48 [leonardr]
...first step was the EPUB A18y spec, and that is the baseline (WCAG A, AA or AAA)
10:38:14 [leonardr] you have to add a variety of other items for DigPub
10:38:33 [leonardr]
...since verything an't be qutomted, there will be a process document about how to evaluate contnet
10:38:47 [leonardr]
....and software woud help people follow that process
10:39:03 [leonardr]
...Avneesh and Raman are both here and part of the TF
10:39:08 [Avneesh]
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10:39:15 [leonardr]
...on a short timeframe in advance of the ACT TF
10:39:40 [leonardr]
Judy: in transition between CG->WG, so peple have a perfect opp to sign up
10:39:49 [leonardr]
George: open for Q & A
10:40:00 [tzviya]
10:40:21 [leonardr]
...we know that the publishers want a "good housekeeping seal" on their documents and schools want to searh on that
10:40:36 [leonardr]
...but can't do it now!
10:40:53 [leonardr]
...biggest impact is the baseline and declaration of support
10:41:22 [leonardr]
Charles: the whole supply chain is critical in ensuring the A18y - from author to publisher to aggregator to ...
10:41:45 [leonardr]
...they all need to make sure that al the tools are a18y aware ad dont damage the content
10:42:11 [leonardr]
George: having that statement is a huge start
10:42:39 [clapierre]
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10:42:59 [leonardr]
Avneesh: it is beautiful to see that the combination of the work between IDPF and WCAG is a great thing
10:43:21 [leonardr]
...but what is the path forward for such metadata in the web?
10:43:50 [leonardr]
charles: in the guidelines (2.4), there is support for things such as TOC, navigation, etc.
10:44:10 [leonardr]
Judy: not sure there is a gap but there is a team doing the gap identification (@tzviya?)
10:44:32 [leonardr]
...but it should be possile to add new tehnique as we go foward as they are identified
10:44:47 [leonardr]
...either 2.x or Silver (3.0)
10:44:53 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:44:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
10:45:13 [leonardr]
...but the timing is great to get this all working
10:45:34 [leonardr]
Tsviya: get involved!
10:45:38 [laurentlemeur]
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10:46:13 [leonardr]
Charles: page numbers are a big issue and there may not be a print equivalent to which you need to match. but with more born digital, that maynot be true.
10:46:28 [ivan]
10:46:31 [leonardr]
...and if there wasnt a print equiv, you probably want something else for navigation
10:47:02 [leonardr]
Judy: different technology paradigms are going to be a big issue as the grups come together - pages (and their numbers) are a good example.
10:47:20 [leonardr] will probably need to educate this community about your needs
10:47:30 [leonardr]
...and let them know why they are important
10:47:50 [leonardr]
BillM: all done
10:48:03 [leonardr]
Judy: reach out to us for more...
10:48:15 [leonardr]
<changing panels>
10:49:01 [Rick_Johnson]
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10:49:49 [leonardr]
three topics: CSS work/Houdini, Web payments, web fonts
10:50:22 [ivan]
scribenick: liam
10:50:24 [liam]
scribenick: Liam
10:50:45 [tzviya]
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10:51:10 [liam]
[Alan Stearns speaks without slides]
10:51:47 [liam]
astearns: motivation for Houdini... I'm not a publisher or designer; my motivation is making tools for them to express what they want
10:52:12 [liam]
When I started with dtp at Aldus it was a toy technology in terms of its functionality, but had clear benefits already.
10:52:21 [liam]
The output was laughably inept.
10:52:40 [liam]
It got better. We moved from a toy basis to a mostly-annoying phase.
10:52:48 [liam]
You had to do a lot of manual teaking.
10:53:28 [liam]
I think we emerged around 2001 or so, after several iterations of [Adobe] InDesign, when the new tools were better in every respect than what they replaced.
10:53:36 [liam]
But by then there was a new technology, the Web.
10:54:05 [liam]
It was interesting to be able to get things on people's screens, but what they were seeing was... inept. It has got better.
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10:54:29 [liam]
Now we're well into the "annoying" phase for the Web. You can get what you want, but there's so much tweaking, from a designer's perspective, to get where you want.
10:54:57 [liam]
Since the Web relies on browsers, you now longer have access to the manual tweaking; you have to use CSS hacks and scripting.
10:55:10 [laurentlemeur]
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10:55:21 [liam]
I've been involved with the CSS WG trying to build in capabilities that you need in the browser, and also to make the script-based tweaking better.
10:55:44 [liam]
Now we have flexbox and grid, that the Web never had before; they started before my invovlement but I'm making sure they're getting done.
10:56:05 [liam]
Hyphenation has been a personal crusade of mine and [is happening]. Now I'm working on baseline grids,
10:56:21 [liam]
something that every other publishing technology has ever had!
10:56:35 [liam]
And we're adding opentype variation fort support.
10:56:39 [liam]
10:57:09 [liam]
But there will be tweaking. So in another room today, the Houdini Task Force is meeting to talk about how to expose more of the style infrastructure to scripting.
10:57:39 [liam]
How to make styling easier to do, or possible to do; first few steps will reduce the coding in e.g. Readium, & to make it run faster.
10:57:59 [liam]
Maybe also you can do things like baseline grids in scripting with Houdini - can't today at all.
10:58:04 [liam]
I need all of your help.
10:58:18 [liam]
I need the people in your organizations who are wrestling with the Web's current annoyances.
10:58:29 [liam]
The people coming up with CSS hacks. The developers writing JS to get things done.
10:58:53 [liam]
I need you to come to the CSS WG, to Houdini. We need to feel your pain.
10:59:22 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:59:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:00:43 [liam]
We now have custom properties, so e.g if epub needed a new property, the browsers will keep it, and Houdini is working on letting you say whether the property is inherited, the ability to validate the values. Also working on
11:01:25 [liam]
...the typed object model [OM]. Getting/setting values involves a lot of string code today; with typed OM the values will work natively.
11:02:28 [liam]
[Ian Jacobs enters the room to talk about Web Payments]
11:02:56 [liam]
ij: the Web Payments IG seeks to make payments easier and more secure at checkout.
11:03:17 [liam]
Looking for standards opportunities, regulatory concerns, liaison, but focus is checkout.
11:03:32 [liam]
The first aspect is enhancing the browser to it helps the users make payments more quickly.
11:04:02 [liam]
The second aspect is Payment Apps.
11:04:15 [liam]
A person goes to an online store and pressed a Buy button.
11:04:50 [liam]
browser asks merchant what's accepted [visa and mastercard, say]
11:05:46 [liam]
(API is intended to help solve "Nascar problem" where there are too many logos.)
11:06:29 [liam]
So the browser now turns to the payment app. User has registered credit/debit cards with the browser.
11:08:35 [liam]
user picks a card, browser sends detail via payment app [scribe uncertain here]
11:09:04 [liam]
The web payments IG hopes this will make web payments easier.
11:10:39 [liam]
The API also has a "matchmaker" protocol via inter-ledger payments - you'd just say how you want to pay, not see what the merchant prefers.
11:10:49 [liam]
Can fall back to classical checkout procedures.
11:11:07 [liam]
Bill_Kasdorf: so the merchant no longer needs to keep a record of my credit card number
11:11:44 [liam]
ij: I want to distinguish payment credentials from identity of the person shopping. Many sites will still want to retain a customer relationsip.
11:12:05 [liam]
Merchants don't want a customer card number. They use e.g. braintree to take the liability.
11:12:26 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:12:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
11:12:51 [liam]
someone: some large merchants want this information. How will that affect things?
11:13:03 [tzviya]
11:13:12 [liam]
ij: merchants may not want the credit cards. E.g. uber uses braintree.
11:13:28 [Avneesh]
11:14:00 [liam]
one way for cenvenience is local (browser) storage rather than e.g. Amazon or Google storing the card.
11:14:26 [liam]
q: so where does the liability and privacy end?
11:14:44 [liam]
ij: so eg. https will help. But there are some interesting questions about who responsible for what.
11:15:02 [liam]
Payment apps will have some responsibility. E.g. you get an app from yuor bank and they want to know it's you
11:15:18 [liam]
... So they might use Web authentication (another Working Group's product).
11:16:11 [liam]
Avneesh: I was in a meeting, analyzing why epub not picking up in Asia.
11:16:24 [liam]
The Asian countries are not on the online payment mode.
11:16:45 [liam]
Maybe the payment is added to the user's 'phone bill. Is this flexible enough to support this?
11:17:12 [liam]
ij: great question! I talked about the bigger picture - there are lots of different payment methods, and we're trying to understand about real payment methods in practice.
11:17:19 [liam]
We've separated the payment method from the user experience.
11:18:02 [liam]
We've made a standard process, we mentioned credit cards & bitcoin but there can be lots of others. So yes it's a goal to be very flexible & we're trying to work with others & confirm that flexibility.
11:19:04 [liam]
You mentioned carrier billing, a broader question. E.g. my payment app from my phone company would support the payment method, and when the merchant that accepts taht & I have an app for it there's a match & it works
11:19:49 [Karen]
Liam: I know from working from working with NACS
11:20:03 [Karen]
…in practice a small merchant is not allowed to keep a customers' Visa number
11:20:06 [Karen]
..but they lie to Visa
11:20:15 [Karen]
…if you run a convenience store with a filling station
11:20:27 [Karen]
…every now and then someone will drive off without paying
11:20:39 [Karen]
…or someone will use a stolen card
11:21:26 [Karen]
…your system needs to supports this unusual use case
11:22:26 [liam]
ij: merchants make a business decision whether to use old system, but could still do it.
11:22:58 [liam]
[Chris Lilley introduces Fonts]
11:23:07 [liam]
Originally Web used Platform Fonts, system-specific
11:23:21 [liam]
Then there was basic font download.
11:23:43 [liam]
[shows opentype ligatures, opentype features]
11:24:19 [liam]
Chris: example - font-varant-numerc: oldstyle/lining numbers, for whether digits are lower-case or upper-case.
11:24:35 [liam]
Another example - fractions
11:24:53 [liam]
using diagonal-fractions feature.
11:25:08 [liam]
e.g for 13/27
11:25:42 [liam]
proportional vs fixed-width digits
11:26:54 [liam]
[shows discretionary ligatures]
11:27:27 [liam]
[shows font-synthesis to tell the browser whether to fake bold or slanted fonts if not available]
11:28:25 [Rebeca]
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11:28:34 [liam]
[font-kerning and letter-spacing] "normal" turns kerning on.
11:29:05 [Rebeca]
Hello! Just entered into the room. Is there any link to the presentation?
11:29:21 [liam]
kerning is for specific pairs of characters, letterspacing is for all characters.
11:29:37 [liam]
Woff is a font-specific compression for browsers.
11:30:30 [liam]
Woff2 makes more use of font-specific compression techniques, e.g. not transmitting a bounding box when it can be calculated.
11:31:27 [liam]
woff 2 fonts tend to average about 32% of the size of the original font; woff 1 were 45% of the size.
11:32:00 [liam]
On mobile, the last 2% size gains uses too much CPU to decompress, duobles decode time!
11:33:04 [liam]
[colour fonts for illuminated manuscripts... or actually for emoji]
11:35:09 [liam]
example: tradition of hand-painted signage in India Painter Kafeel. Shows using CSS to change the colours in an SVG colour font in firefox & edge. Coming to the Chrome browser.
11:35:43 [liam]
Opentype 1.8 arrived last week with font variations, like multiple masters or GX.
11:36:27 [liam]
Download one font and get five diffrent weights, condensed and wide version, optical size, slant, etc, so big change.
11:36:34 [liam]
font can have custom axes too.
11:36:59 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:36:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
11:37:30 [liam]
Ralph: [thanks Chris]
11:37:32 [liam]
11:40:24 [Florian]
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12:36:08 [ivan]
scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf
12:36:43 [Bill_Kasdorf]
dauwhe: HBG has produced over 1,000 titles as HTML + CSS = PDF
12:37:08 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . and sold over 50,000,000 print books done this way,
12:37:29 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . It costs much less than offshore typesetting.
12:37:38 [laurentlemeur]
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12:37:45 [tzviya]
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12:37:59 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . We love this! It just plain works.
12:38:07 [clapierre]
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12:38:12 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Admittedly, most of our books are fiction and straightforward nonfiction.
12:38:27 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . But we still care about good typography and layout.
12:39:07 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . So I tried doing a travel guide--very complex, very graphic. Possible? Yes!
12:39:54 [clapierre]
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12:40:22 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . [He showed the code to prove it. See his slides.]
12:40:26 [clapierre]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:40:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate clapierre
12:40:49 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . He even did an image that crosses a spread.
12:42:31 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . There's whole class of software called CSS Formatters that is how this is done.
12:42:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . He uses one called Prince. Antenna House makes another one.
12:43:30 [Ralph]
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12:44:35 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Also showed picking up page numbers for a TOC, including a detailed chapter TOC.
12:45:07 [hjlee]
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12:46:35 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . See spec: CSS Generated Content for Paged Media Module [need url]
12:47:02 [Rebeca]
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12:47:34 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Dave wants to use the same tools and technologies to make print and digital books. IDPF + W3C.
12:47:46 [Avneesh]
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12:49:38 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . This isn't WYSIWYG. This is code based, template based composition.
12:50:15 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Florian: The Web is the universal medium, for everyone, for every culture.
12:50:30 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Conceptual model of CSS is great for print, but the implementation is lacking.
12:50:47 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Vivliostyle addresses this, without forking CSS.
12:51:27 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Showed a book on CSS created entirely in CSS with SVG images.
12:51:49 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . It's the Japanese edition.
12:52:03 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Uses modern aspects of CSS like flexbox.
12:52:32 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Exact same result in PDF and in the browser.
12:53:01 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Major/minor columns mirrored on verso/recto.
12:53:37 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Generates the pagebreak markers for index/toc functionality.
12:53:40 [mgylling]
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12:54:25 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Can consume either a single HTML document or a loose collection of HTML docs or an EPUB.
12:54:39 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Also responsive.
12:54:59 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Reflow recalculates page numbers in real time.
12:55:06 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . [oohs and ahhs]
12:56:21 [Bill_Kasdorf]
. . . Accommodates scrolling: showed a code block that scrolls a region within the page.
13:00:20 [astearns]
13:00:58 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:00:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
13:01:17 [garth]
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13:01:46 [ivan]
scribenick: tzviya
13:02:07 [pbelfanti]
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13:05:59 [tzviya]
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13:06:19 [tzviya]
...We closed the XML WG
13:07:00 [tzviya]
...There is built in support for spreads, column spreads,
13:07:14 [tzviya]
...These are things that don't exist in CSS
13:07:21 [tzviya]
Can be done with vendor extensions
13:07:52 [tzviya]
We are trying to fill the gaps and are working to standardize some of the things needed for books.
13:08:25 [tzviya]
Liam: There are some schools that teach XSL for publishers
13:08:40 [tzviya]
...not many (any?) that teach CSS for publishers
13:09:01 [tzviya]
...My goal is to help make CSS fill the needs of publishers
13:09:30 [tzviya]
...We do not need to take everything that FO does, but there are aspects from it to move into CSS.
13:10:04 [tzviya]
...We also need to take the needs of self-publishing into consideration
13:10:31 [tzviya]
...we need to use finishing, such as gilt spines, JDF, etc.
13:10:41 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tzviya
13:11:25 [tzviya]
BillM: How soon can you stop using formatters, add-ons, etc?
13:11:41 [tzviya]
...Are we close to CSS-FO?
13:12:31 [tzviya]
FLorian: There are various tools that are implemented today. Not all of this is standard, but we are here to make it standard.
13:12:44 [tzviya]
...Specs move slowly, but we are working on them.
13:13:18 [tzviya]
Dauwhe: We have relatively stable specs that have been implemented by the formatters, not the browsers
13:13:39 [tzviya]
Ivan: The fact that you do it proves it can be done
13:13:45 [mgylling]
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13:15:04 [dauwhe]
link to Dave Cramer slides:
13:15:06 [tzviya]
Liam: Houdini is opening the browser up to scripting, which may help with layout
13:15:29 [tzviya] these happen in Houdini polyfills
13:15:49 [tzviya]
BillM: And publishers need to particapte more
13:15:52 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:15:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
13:16:12 [tzviya]
Liam: File bugs against browsers
13:16:24 [tzviya]
Dave: and a pull request!
13:16:48 [tzviya]
Florian: and a business case
13:17:31 [tzviya]
astearns: Echoing bill. People have been asking for this for a long time, but we need to convince browsers that there is real demand
13:18:05 [tzviya]
leonardr: CSS and the Web push the envelope when it comes to design
13:18:07 [astearns]
s/for this/for paginated views/
13:18:37 [tzviya]
...Have you run into limitations when it comes to print? Has the Web overtaken print?
13:18:49 [tzviya]
Dave: Yes, people want emojis in print
13:19:08 [tzviya]
Florian: You can do whatever you want with pen and paper
13:19:21 [tzviya]
...but if you stretch the paper, it looks odd
13:19:42 [tzviya]
...CSS is for all sizes, and it works for a range of sizes
13:20:22 [tzviya]
Pbelfanti: The reality is that most publishers don't produce most of their products, so we need to get their vendors involved
13:20:36 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:20:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tzviya
13:21:31 [laurentlemeur]
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13:22:08 [dauwhe]
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13:23:03 [dauwhe]
laudrain: epub and web publishing tooling
13:23:07 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
13:23:26 [dauwhe]
laurent: I'm CTO of EDRLab
13:23:50 [dauwhe]
glazou: I'm from Disruptive Innovations
13:23:56 [olivexu]
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13:24:03 [dauwhe]
... I started working on SGML rendering in 1990
13:24:08 [dauwhe]
... and lots of other things
13:24:22 [Florian]
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13:24:49 [dauwhe]
laurentlemeur: EDRLab is created by french publishers, representing 75% of publishing in france
13:25:05 [dauwhe]
... and SNE
13:25:23 [dauwhe]
... and French ministry of culture
13:25:31 [dauwhe]
... we did the EPUB summit in Bordeaux in April
13:25:52 [dauwhe]
... there will be an EPUB Summit in 2017, location TBD
13:26:01 [dauwhe]
... we are workiing on Readium LCP
13:26:07 [dauwhe]
... "user friendly DRM"
13:26:32 [dauwhe]
... avoid complexity for the user, and will be interoperable, accessible, and managed by nonprofit
13:26:50 [dauwhe]
laudrain: books are old citizens
13:27:18 [dauwhe]
... web does not yet have the typographic excellence that is required
13:27:36 [dauwhe]
... we now release print and epub at the time time
13:27:46 [dauwhe]
... we have embraced epub because of the OWP
13:28:26 [dauwhe]
... what is there today for epub tools, for people who want to create only digital versions
13:29:09 [dauwhe]
... why aren't there many tools, unlike for creating websites
13:29:53 [dauwhe]
glazou: my editor is based on gecko
13:30:02 [dauwhe]
... you can apply any css3/4 features
13:30:10 [dauwhe]
... you can access manifest/spine/package
13:30:14 [dauwhe]
... epub2 and epub3
13:30:22 [dauwhe]
... it is fully internationalized
13:30:36 [dauwhe]
... thanks to Gecko, so I benefit from web standardization
13:31:02 [dauwhe]
... we have to cobble together workflows from many pieces
13:31:07 [dauwhe]
... we have to hand-edit epubs
13:31:27 [dauwhe]
... ideally I should be able to take the web editor, and add epub features
13:31:32 [dauwhe]
... but it's almost impossible
13:31:42 [darobin]
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13:31:44 [dauwhe]
... because of the proprietary XML in epub, and the packaging
13:31:51 [dauwhe]
... because there's no file api
13:31:56 [dauwhe]
... I can't paginate in my software
13:32:09 [dauwhe]
... our goal now is to have a full editorial chain based on epub
13:32:24 [dauwhe]
... start with epub, you add, you link, you edit, end with epub
13:32:34 [dauwhe]
... with nothing proprietary, only using pure web tech
13:32:39 [RalphS]
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13:32:41 [dauwhe]
... the things we really miss:
13:32:43 [dauwhe]
... pagination
13:33:08 [dauwhe]
... pagination is not only for single documents, we need to paginate multi-document views in one viewport
13:33:22 [dauwhe]
... footnotes, counters, page numbers should be cross-document
13:33:47 [dauwhe]
... we should be able to draw on a canvas inside epub
13:33:59 [dauwhe]
... extend contenteditable
13:34:16 [dauwhe]
... we need to go far beyond what the front-end web is able to do to meet the requirements
13:34:26 [dauwhe]
... of publications
13:34:38 [dauwhe]
... we should have new tech features never thought of in the web world
13:34:49 [laurentlemeur]
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13:34:59 [dauwhe]
laurentlemeur: I want to talk about client side
13:35:27 [Florian]
(late addition to the minutes for the previous session: there are vivliostyle demos here: and here
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13:35:53 [dauwhe]
(onlinification failed)
13:36:05 [dauwhe]
... we want to enhance readium
13:36:14 [dauwhe]
... we're launching readium architecture project
13:36:27 [dauwhe]
... add new web tech to readium code
13:36:42 [dauwhe]
... design for readium 2, with big cleaning up of rendering
13:36:52 [dauwhe]
... turning pages is an issue:
13:36:59 [Bert]
-> Readium
13:37:01 [astearns]
readium architecture folks should consult and and give feedback on whether they would be useful to you
13:37:05 [dauwhe]
... css columns, css regions, css pages, css fragmentation
13:37:12 [dauwhe]
... all this is difficult
13:37:20 [dauwhe]
... houdini is not there yet
13:37:38 [dauwhe]
... we want something better than our columns polyfill
13:37:55 [dauwhe]
... better typographic compositing
13:37:56 [dauwhe]
... service workers
13:38:02 [dauwhe]
... web workers (auto reindexing)
13:38:06 [glazou]
tzviya: Sanskrit
13:38:08 [dauwhe]
...file API
13:38:16 [dauwhe]
... better MathML support
13:38:22 [dauwhe]
ivan: unless you incorporate mathjax
13:38:24 [glazou]
tzviya, dauwhe:
13:39:15 [dauwhe]
lrosenthal: this session has been talking about authoring, and even authoring natively
13:39:21 [dauwhe]
... I'll raise two issues
13:39:26 [dauwhe]
... one is around a11y
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13:39:38 [dauwhe]
... providing tooling to create a11y content
13:39:47 [dauwhe]
... the other is responsive design
13:39:53 [dauwhe]
... providing tools to do that
13:40:03 [dauwhe]
glazou: I first tried to make the UI of the app a11y
13:40:06 [dauwhe]
... I'm dealing with ARIA-role
13:40:12 [dauwhe]
... I kept longdesc
13:40:43 [dauwhe]
... in terms of responsive design, I support MQ, but you have to write them yourself
13:40:52 [dauwhe]
... the next version will have something like Adobe ???
13:41:00 [astearns]
13:41:01 [dauwhe]
... you can design MQs visually
13:41:07 [astearns]
(also now in DreamWeaver)
13:41:27 [astearns]
hmm - and/or perhaps Muse
13:41:46 [dauwhe]
... code will find a way to insert new mqs
13:42:04 [dauwhe]
... trying to hide the complexity of responsive design
13:42:11 [dauwhe]
laudrain: in terms of a11y
13:42:25 [dauwhe]
... a tool that reads and writes in epub3 may retain designed a11y
13:42:32 [Florian]
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13:42:42 [dauwhe]
... for only digital projects, some requirements (like page numbers) don't apply
13:42:58 [dauwhe]
Avneesh: what about accessibility metadata
13:43:10 [dauwhe]
... a11y in the tool is one thing, but metadata is of high importance
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13:43:23 [dauwhe]
laudrain: metadata that describes what features are included?
13:43:42 [dauwhe]
... that can be derived from the structure of the epub itself in the tool
13:44:05 [dauwhe]
george: once the epub a11y spec is approved, we would like to see the authoring tools to enable users to add a11y metadata
13:44:20 [dauwhe]
... just like you'd like the user to be able to add alt text when an image is added
13:44:32 [dauwhe]
laudrain: it should be possible to automate some of this
13:44:48 [dauwhe]
... and also for a11y metadata that's in ONIX
13:45:02 [dauwhe]
astearns: you mentioned the readium architecture reconsiderations
13:45:14 [dauwhe]
... and that it's too early to rely on houdini stuff
13:45:33 [dauwhe]
... but it's a perfect time to consider the proposals, determine if they are useful, and provide feedback
13:46:07 [dauwhe]
glazou: in w3c, a constant complaint is that we consider web standards from a browsing point of view, and not the editing view
13:46:14 [dauwhe]
... this community can really help with that
13:46:25 [dauwhe]
... publishers are often on the authoring side
13:46:38 [dauwhe]
... shouldn't a goal be a horizontal editing review
13:46:54 [dauwhe]
ivan: if I go back to your first remark , that we are mostly looking at the end users
13:47:10 [dauwhe]
... but there are also users who create systems on top of the browser for other users
13:47:23 [dauwhe]
... publishers or resellers who build up systems that are catalogs of books
13:47:36 [dauwhe]
... what metadata is interesting to be included in a web publication
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13:47:59 [dauwhe]
... much of the metadata is not interesting for the reader, but is interesting for the distributor
13:48:09 [dauwhe]
... that aspect should be more vocal in use cases
13:48:33 [dauwhe]
... the traditional web browser world doesn't care about that
13:48:57 [dauwhe]
billM: this means the web needs to take into account more things
13:48:59 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:48:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
13:49:00 [dauwhe]
... thanks all for coming
13:49:18 [pbelfanti]
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13:49:33 [dauwhe]
... we'll all be gathering in a room soon :)
13:49:44 [clapierre]
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13:49:54 [dauwhe]
glazou: we should have euro books in browsers
13:50:11 [dauwhe]
billm: there is also ebookcraft
13:50:22 [ivan]
rrsagent, bye
13:50:22 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items