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07:56:48 <dauwhe_> scribenick: dauwhe
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07:57:13 <dauwhe_> Bill: the agenda is on a wiki
07:57:18 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #dpub
07:57:23 <dauwhe_> ... I hope today will be organic in its flow
07:57:34 <dauwhe_> ... if you want to propose a change, do so
07:58:08 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre Avneesh_Singh George_Kerscher
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07:58:32 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
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07:59:04 <dauwhe> ... if we had a publishing business group, you might imagine this is their meeting, but we don't have such a group... yet
07:59:46 <dauwhe> jeff: welcome to all of you
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08:00:06 <dauwhe> ... as we explore the combination, we chose our most full-throttled tech conference to introduce this idea
08:00:28 <dauwhe> ... 3.5 years ago, when there was the first joint conference
08:00:30 <Karen> Karen has joined #dpub
08:00:38 <dauwhe> ... we started to talk about a vision of publishing = web
08:00:56 <dauwhe> ... I never imagined that we would conclude so quickly that there was so much we could do together
08:01:10 <dauwhe> ... I'm looking forward to us working together
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08:01:36 <dauwhe> mgylling: the first session is about the epub 3 roadmap
08:01:44 <dauwhe> ... we assume you know about epub
08:01:53 <dauwhe> ... this is not epub 101
08:02:06 <dauwhe> ... but more about next steps in light of discussions about the combination
08:02:11 <dauwhe> ... we have four panelists
08:02:16 <dauwhe> ... introductions
08:02:29 <dauwhe> paul: VP of content for ascend learning
08:02:37 <dauwhe> rick johnson: vital source
08:02:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: wiley
08:02:49 <dauwhe> billk: apex
08:03:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: i co-chair the epub 3.1 wg and the DPUB IG
08:03:45 <dauwhe> ... I'm going to talk about epub 3.1, how we got there, and where we are going
08:03:52 <dauwhe> ... history of idpf
08:04:00 <glazou> glazou has joined #dpub
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08:04:05 <dauwhe> ... standards org from 1999 as open ebook forum
08:04:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
08:04:17 <dauwhe> ... lots of members from pubs, and ecosystem
08:04:28 <pbelfanti> pbelfanti has joined #dpub
08:04:33 <dauwhe> ... we promote epub as interoperable delivery format based on owp
08:04:39 <dauwhe> ... [shows timeline]
08:04:43 <pbelfanti> Present+ Paul Belfanti
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08:05:20 <dauwhe> ... epub3 in 2012, and then fixed layout for childrens books, manga, etc
08:05:41 <dauwhe> ... 2013, when adoption was slow because of changes
08:05:54 <dauwhe> ... we worked with BISG to create epubtest.org to test feature support
08:06:04 <dauwhe> ... and to publicly shame reading systems that don't support all of the spec
08:06:24 <dauwhe> ... in 2014, we worked on a profile of epub, epub for education
08:06:38 <dauwhe> ... did 3.0.1 update, which was a bit more than bug fixes
08:06:41 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #dpub
08:06:57 <dauwhe> ... in 2015, we started working on epub 3.1
08:07:01 <Dmitry> Dmitry has joined #dpub
08:07:07 <dauwhe> ... it's currently in a public draft
08:07:15 <dauwhe> ... sortof like last call at w3c
08:07:20 <dauwhe> ... we're collecting feedback
08:07:28 <dauwhe> ... next step is IP review
08:07:33 <dauwhe> ... goal is final by end of calendar year
08:07:40 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
08:07:45 <dauwhe> ... we originally wanted a larger change
08:07:59 <dauwhe> ... but we pulled back on new features due to impending combination
08:08:09 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #dpub
08:08:13 <dauwhe> ... BFF had lots of overlap with PWP, so we put it on ice
08:08:14 <duga> duga has joined #dpub
08:08:29 <dauwhe> ... we had hoped to allow html serialization, but that too was put on hold
08:08:40 <dauwhe> ... we did get rid of some unused, frustrating features
08:08:52 <dauwhe> ... lots of editorial changes to make the documents more user-friendly
08:09:01 <dauwhe> ... we've also created an a11y spec
08:09:14 <dauwhe> ... you can evaluate and certify for a11y
08:09:27 <dauwhe> ... you can discover a11y features of a given epub
08:09:33 <dauwhe> ... based on wcag 2.0
08:10:14 <dauwhe> ... but there are some differences, for example navigating between html files in epub
08:10:33 <dauwhe> ... same high-level principles as wcag, we hope this stuff eventually migrates to wcag
08:10:47 <dauwhe> ... how's global adoption going?
08:10:52 <dauwhe> ... lots of reading system support
08:11:31 <dauwhe> glazou: where's blue griffon?!?
08:11:48 <glazou> s/blue griffon/BlueGriffon
08:11:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: here's a list of those that support epub3
08:12:00 <dauwhe> ... we have epubcheck
08:12:22 <dauwhe> ... our community takes validation *very* seriously
08:12:42 <dauwhe> ... retailers WONT allow files that fail epubcheck
08:12:54 <dauwhe> ... we do need help maintaining epubcheck
08:13:05 <dauwhe> ... epubtest.org keeps reading systems honest
08:13:20 <dauwhe> ... I'm a volunteer tester, but reading systems can also test themselves
08:13:36 <dauwhe> ... there are EPUB 3 authoring tools, from Indesign to google docs
08:13:58 <Gus> Gus has joined #dpub
08:14:15 <dauwhe> ... epub3 has been holistically adopted in Japan
08:14:43 <dauwhe> BillM: it's a national standard in South Korea
08:14:57 <dauwhe> ... widely adopted for trade books, manga, education...
08:15:09 <dauwhe> s/.../tzviya/
08:15:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: timeline
08:15:30 <dauwhe> ... epub 3.1 at end of 2016
08:15:42 <Roque> Roque has joined #dpub
08:15:56 <dauwhe> ... current proposal is for an EPUB 3 Community Group to work on 3.1 maintenance
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08:16:06 <dauwhe> mgylling: let's save questions for the end
08:16:25 <dauwhe> Rick: it's an understatement to say it's popular in education
08:16:33 <dauwhe> ... I'm from VitalSource
08:16:51 <dauwhe> ... we do a *lot* of business in education
08:17:00 <dauwhe> ... 18 million textbooks
08:17:04 <dauwhe> ... we're involved in the WG
08:17:25 <dauwhe> ... we do creation tools, integration tools, analytics, learning process, reading systems
08:17:58 <dauwhe> ... broad content support. Ingram is our partner, we work with 58,000 imprints
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08:18:09 <dauwhe> ... we support lots of formats, but we love EPUB
08:18:16 <dauwhe> ... it's because of mobile devices
08:18:30 <dauwhe> ... students love mobile devices, need content that reflows and is accessible
08:18:35 <duga_> duga_ has joined #dpub
08:18:47 <dauwhe> ... they like highly interactive web sites, made into books via epub
08:19:14 <dauwhe> ... a year ago, five of our top 100 titles were epub
08:19:32 <dauwhe> ... now two-thirds of our top 100 are epub, PDF is now a backlist format
08:19:55 <dauwhe> ... epub reading is mostly in the browser
08:20:07 <dauwhe> ... and a lot of the usage is offline
08:20:23 <dauwhe> ... and epub is great for that
08:20:32 <dauwhe> ... we also do content creation
08:20:55 <dauwhe> ... we have our own tool focused on making it simple for students/faculty to create content, born accessible
08:21:06 <dauwhe> ... it's all wcag AA conformant
08:21:25 <dauwhe> ... EPUB is not a future tech, it's a fact in the marketplace
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08:21:45 <dauwhe> ... it's a best practice for getting web tech into the education marketplace
08:21:50 <dauwhe> mgylling: thanks Rick!
08:22:06 <dauwhe> pbelfanti: I'm going to talk about epub for education spec
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08:22:13 <dauwhe> ... why did we create this?
08:22:24 <dauwhe> ... there was a logjam in the industry
08:22:25 <SteveZ> present+
08:22:36 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
08:22:37 <dauwhe> ... the overhead was too high, too many variants of the file format
08:22:52 <dauwhe> ... you'd have to create 15 versions of every epub for the various channels
08:22:57 <dauwhe> ... and features were missing
08:23:05 <dauwhe> ... the development costs were high
08:23:11 <dauwhe> ... and there wasn't enough content.
08:23:17 <dauwhe> ... it was a vicious cycle.
08:23:35 <dauwhe> ... from a publisher standpoint, a standard format gives you
08:23:39 <dauwhe> ... economies of scale
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08:23:44 <dauwhe> ... sourcing flexibility
08:23:47 <dauwhe> ... consistency
08:23:54 <dauwhe> ... reduces overhead
08:24:01 <dauwhe> ... you can focus on product enhancements
08:24:09 <dauwhe> ... for the platform provider
08:24:18 <dauwhe> ... more volume of content
08:24:23 <dauwhe> ... for the educator
08:24:32 <dauwhe> ... content can integrate with LMS
08:24:36 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Community Meeting at TPAC 2016
08:25:02 <tzviya> chair: Markus
08:25:14 <dauwhe> ... easily repurposed, trackable
08:25:22 <dauwhe> ... easily deployed
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08:25:36 <dauwhe> ... for the learner, it's more responsive
08:25:45 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #dpub
08:25:46 <dauwhe> ... has richer experiences leading to better outcomes
08:25:58 <dauwhe> ... can be used anywhere, inside or outside classroom
08:26:00 <Florian> Florian has joined #dpub
08:26:11 <dauwhe> ... will get more affordable
08:26:17 <dauwhe> ... what is the edupub alliance?
08:26:25 <dauwhe> ... a group of like-minded organizations
08:26:35 <dauwhe> ... driven by IDPF, IMS Global, W3C, BISG
08:26:48 <dauwhe> ... pooled resources for a common goal
08:26:57 <dauwhe> ... a lightweight structure based on existing standards
08:27:19 <dauwhe> ... EDUPUB = Open Web Standards + Learning mangement + ???
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08:27:42 <dauwhe> ... it includes everything that the contet needs for education
08:27:54 <dauwhe> ... integrate IMS, allow annotations, interactivity
08:28:12 <dauwhe> ... has an education-tuned semantic vocabulary to describe these complex structures
08:28:28 <dauwhe> ... aligned with readium to help implementation
08:28:40 <dauwhe> ... interactivity, connectivity, complex design, and a11y
08:28:47 <dauwhe> ... it's a global alliance
08:29:09 <dauwhe> ... the first workshop included more than 100 people, from china, brazil, europe, all over the globe
08:29:35 <dauwhe> ... different regions have different needs... learning styles, layout requirements, horizontal vs vertical
08:29:46 <dauwhe> ... where do we go from here?
08:30:04 <dauwhe> ... epub for edu is somewhat on hold in spec development because of 3.1
08:30:09 <dauwhe> ... focusing on implementations
08:30:14 <dauwhe> ... spec is in public draft
08:30:45 <dauwhe> ... will meet in February 2017 to do status check and work on next steps
08:31:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm shocked that my colleagues have not gone over time :)
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08:31:16 <dauwhe> ... BISG is the book industry study group
08:31:28 <dauwhe> ... we represent the entire supply chain, not just publishers
08:31:40 <dauwhe> ... historically more trade-oriented
08:31:56 <dauwhe> ... aggregators, tech companies, retailers, service providers
08:32:00 <ivan> ivan has joined #dpub
08:32:12 <dauwhe> ... we're not an advocacy organization like AAP
08:32:30 <dauwhe> ... BISG was an early supporter of EPUB
08:32:45 <dauwhe> ... we work hand-in-hand with IDPF to promote EPUB
08:32:54 <dauwhe> ... it's not just books (everyone drink)
08:32:57 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Publishing_Community_Meeting_at_TPAC_2016
08:33:07 <dauwhe> ... we have a reciprocal membership with w3c and IDPF
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08:33:48 <dauwhe> ... we put together working groups that work on publications to help encourage implemenation and adoption
08:33:54 <dauwhe> ... talking about edupub
08:34:13 <dauwhe> ... so paul chaired a bisg group to write "Getting Started with EDUPUB"
08:34:40 <dauwhe> ... to help people get started
08:34:44 <dauwhe> ... it's due for an update now
08:34:58 <dauwhe> ... we did a quickstart guide to accessible publishing
08:35:16 <dauwhe> ... it's gotten incredible attention and update, partly due to our friends from vital source
08:35:23 <dauwhe> ... got it translated into many languages
08:35:58 <dauwhe> ... a big priority for BISG is a11y
08:36:08 <dauwhe> ... many people in the room helped drived this
08:36:17 <tzviya> s/drived/drive
08:36:24 <dauwhe> ... it's 70 pages long, but the quickstart part is 20 pages
08:36:56 <dauwhe> ... if you have a properly created epub3, you're already 90 percent of the way to accessibility
08:37:04 <dauwhe> ... i also want to mention epubtest.org
08:37:19 <dauwhe> ... it's a collaboration between BISG, IDPF, and DAISY
08:37:24 <dauwhe> ... DAISY did the heavy lifting
08:37:39 <dauwhe> ... aimed at the misconception that epub3 was not getting adopted
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08:37:44 <dauwhe> ... it was, but not every feature
08:38:00 <dauwhe> ... so we needed to see which RSs supported a particular feature
08:38:18 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
08:38:24 <dauwhe> (showing epubtest.org on screen)
08:39:03 <Ralph> http://epubtest.org/
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08:40:14 <dauwhe> ... lots of pubs don't distribute to the retail supply chain
08:40:32 <dauwhe> ... it's easy to use, nice interface with lots of details about feature support
08:40:51 <dauwhe> ... and there's now testing for a11y support
08:41:04 <dauwhe> ... which is more complex due to interactions of reading system, AT, and operating system
08:41:18 <dauwhe> ... so this information is based on knowledgeable users reporting on tests
08:41:30 <dauwhe> ... this is useful for procuring tech for schools
08:41:42 <tzviya> q?
08:41:44 <dauwhe> mgylling: four minutes for questions
08:42:31 <dauwhe> laurent: what is the relationship between epubtest and ...?
08:42:36 <astearns> present+
08:42:43 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: epubtest is about the reading system
08:42:48 <dauwhe> ... epubcheck is about the epub file
08:43:06 <dauwhe> billM: there are also actual test files on github
08:43:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this is useful for reading system devs
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08:43:36 <dauwhe> mgylling: epubtest test suite is manual tests
08:43:46 <dauwhe> ... that's why it's expensive and painful to run
08:44:04 <dauwhe> ... epub reading systems don't have a standard api, unlike browsers, so we can't do automated testing
08:44:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: please help out
08:44:32 <dauwhe> George: the a11y test book does a great job, but we will add more titles to check math and advanced features
08:44:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: everything we've talked about is a work in progress
08:45:05 <dauwhe> mgylling: more questions? we have thirty seconds.
08:45:12 <dauwhe> ... let's switch the people
08:45:15 <dauwhe> (applause)
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08:47:50 <dauwhe> ivan: I try to be bolder than markus, and ask panelists to be short
08:47:57 <dauwhe> ... I expect questions
08:48:12 <dauwhe> ... this session is more about future work, future directions
08:48:18 <dauwhe> ... after the combination is done
08:48:48 <dauwhe> ... just to indicate how flexible things are, what we were calling pwp may even change it's name
08:48:55 <dauwhe> ... this is movable ground
08:49:07 <dauwhe> ... the idea is to give an overview of where we want to go
08:49:20 <dauwhe> ... i will begin with markus, who was one of the instigators
08:49:46 <dauwhe> ... garth is the latest addition to the co-chair list
08:49:54 <dauwhe> ... tzviya is the stable point
08:50:01 <dauwhe> ... and bill moves everything behind the scenes
08:50:08 <dauwhe> BillM: I'm the unstable point
08:50:27 <dauwhe> ivan: Markus will talk about background
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08:51:00 <dauwhe> mgylling: jeff mentioned the initial workshop in february 2013 in NYC
08:51:08 <dauwhe> ... the interest group was created six months later
08:51:28 <dauwhe> ... initially, the scope and ambition was exploratory to understand the landscape
08:51:43 <dauwhe> ... to make the connnection between OWP and the ebook industry more direct
08:52:15 <dauwhe> ... there has always been some distance between owp and portable doc formats
08:52:24 <dauwhe> ... we wanted to understand the gaps
08:52:32 <dauwhe> ... which problems have been solved, which haven't
08:52:39 <dauwhe> ... the first 2 years were in this mode
08:52:46 <dauwhe> ... we did research, we published reports
08:52:52 <dauwhe> ... some are ongoing projects
08:53:04 <dauwhe> ... Dave Cramer has requirements for text layout doc
08:53:10 <dauwhe> ... and a CSS priorities doc
08:53:18 <dauwhe> ... we did a gap analysis of wcag 2.0
08:53:26 <dauwhe> ... we did use cases for annotations for dpub
08:54:00 <dauwhe> ... the initial explorative mode has changed to working on PWP
08:54:15 <dauwhe> ... now we're looking more pragmaticallly to that future
08:54:34 <dauwhe> ... so the IG can provide the fodder needed by a new working group within w3c
08:54:46 <dauwhe> ... we've been working on use cases since the dawn of time
08:55:48 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
08:56:07 <Karen> Garth: Co-chair of PWP Interest Group
08:56:12 <Karen> Tzviya: you just renamed it!
08:56:16 <Rick_Johnson> Rick_Johnson has joined #dpub
08:56:20 <Karen> Garth: Sorry, Digital Publishing Interest Group!
08:56:25 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #DPUB
08:56:27 <Karen> …and Chairman of the Board of IDPF
08:56:32 <Rick_Johnson> present+
08:56:38 <Karen> …I am either persistent or stubborn in this space
08:56:38 <laurentlemeur> present+
08:56:50 <Karen> …I started in 1999…when just a few companies were doing this
08:57:01 <Karen> …we were hunting around with NY publishers to find content
08:57:18 <Karen> …it dawned on us to have publishers deliver a new format was not workable
08:57:31 <Karen> …this lead to open ebook format which then led to IDPF and EPUB
08:57:38 <Karen> …but even then it was based on Web technologies
08:57:42 <Karen> …there was HTML and some CSS
08:57:46 <Karen> …we did a package and a manifest
08:57:58 <Karen> …This has been moving for quite some time to get to EPUB3.1
08:58:08 <Karen> …move from @ world to where we are now
08:58:16 <Karen> …We don't do our best when we invent from whole cloth
08:58:22 <Karen> …exception is the EPUB package file
08:58:32 <Karen> …Other things we invented from whole cloth but were not as successful
08:58:40 <Karen> …as we brought in more and more stuff from the Web
08:58:45 <Karen> …and we have been continuing in that direction
08:58:57 <Karen> …as we consider a potential merger, with DPub group
08:59:10 <Karen> …I will let Tzviya talk to that group more because she has much more history than I
08:59:18 <Karen> …As we look at what a Portable Web Publication is
08:59:26 <Karen> …there is a list of capabilities of what a PWP can be
08:59:36 <Karen> …it's wholly contained, packaged, layer of technologies being used
08:59:39 <Karen> …based on OWP
08:59:46 <Karen> …and there has been a bit of tensions
08:59:52 <Karen> …as we published our use cases recently
08:59:59 <Karen> …between the browser community and the browser community
09:00:12 <Karen> …EPUB has always been this zipped thing; never really existed as a Web site
09:00:23 <Karen> …some tension with browsers and we want to render this natively
09:00:26 <Karen> …has been this zip file
09:00:31 <Karen> …what feels like an interesting
09:00:42 <Karen> …what Ivan would say was a "kumbaya moment"
09:00:55 <Karen> …on Tuesday [Bill clarified]
09:01:08 <Karen> …whether P stands for portable or packaged is unclear
09:01:17 <Karen> …but a lot of agreement is publications
09:01:25 <Karen> …maybe packaged file gets into more Web manifest
09:01:31 <boris_anthony> Layers that Garth refered to:
09:01:32 <boris_anthony> portable
09:01:32 <Karen> …a lot of interesting technologies at W3C
09:01:33 <boris_anthony> bounded package of media
09:01:34 <boris_anthony> in web-standard formats
09:01:35 <boris_anthony> addressable by standard Web protocols
09:01:36 <boris_anthony> and consumable by standard Web tools.
09:01:40 <Karen> …Dave working on interesting things
09:01:52 <Karen> …Hope this will be publsihed on web, can be viewed online
09:01:59 <Karen> …whether single or multiple
09:02:06 <Karen> …maybe larger value than one
09:02:15 <Karen> …one would be closely related to where we are with EPUB today
09:02:19 <Karen> …where we have a whole industry
09:02:32 <Karen> …We have to find a path to move this forward, the PWP into the Web world
09:02:43 <Karen> …Earlier there was the browser friendly format that we decided not to move forward
09:02:50 <Karen> …in order to bring it to the PWP effort
09:02:53 <Karen> …I was a late comer to that
09:02:58 <Karen> …think about how to round trip it
09:03:03 <Karen> …Dave not throwing things at me
09:03:16 <Karen> …There were experiements of taking packaging into HTML
09:03:20 <Karen> …will serve us well
09:03:30 <Karen> …But I will be the stick in the mud that we have to support the existing industry
09:03:43 <Karen> …now Tzviya can talk
09:03:49 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
09:03:52 <Karen> Tzviya: Garth picks things up quickly
09:03:59 <Karen> …I'll give a brief background on the use cases
09:04:12 <Karen> …It's not covert, but we have been laying the groundwork for a Working Group
09:04:19 <Karen> …we need more information about what we need to do
09:04:30 <Karen> …We have put together this use case document that we new we needed to do
09:04:44 <Karen> …what we did was intentionally agnostic about the kinds of technologies we would be using
09:04:47 <Karen> …In the last two weeks
09:04:50 <Karen> Ivan; one week
09:04:56 <Karen> Tzviya: seems like two
09:05:17 <Karen> …in the past amount of time we have had a  number of comments that "all of this technology exists" so use it
09:05:32 <Karen> …one of members of groups said, look at WebApp manifest, look at Service Workers
09:05:40 <Karen> …last TPAC we spoke with Jay Archibald
09:05:49 <Karen> …on his way home he built a crude system based on Service Workers
09:06:03 <Karen> …Dave took it and build a crude system based on Service workers
09:06:19 <Karen> …there is a Moby Dick book in there and a Bible
09:06:28 <Karen> …files that a bit different from what Web world knows
09:06:36 <Karen> …they need to be first class citizens
09:06:43 <Karen> …Remember MathML…it needs to function
09:06:54 <Ralph> s/Jay Ar/Jake Ar/
09:07:02 <Karen> …We need to bring publications to same level of respect and support as other HTML documents
09:07:13 <Karen> …We need to figure out what this means in the world of service workers, web app manifests
09:07:26 <Karen> …on this year's, next year's and three years' from now's Web
09:07:32 <Karen> …Looks like we are headed in the right direction
09:07:48 <Karen> …Sometimes we use different words or terms that are different from the people in eWeb platforms group
09:08:03 <Karen> …I may call package that someone else calls off the web
09:08:19 <Karen> …we have a lot of work to do, but the direction we are headed in is something like a Web publication
09:08:26 <Karen> …that I can just open in a Web browser
09:08:37 <Karen> …There is a conference called Books and Browsers
09:08:44 <Karen> …I want to be able to open my book in a browser
09:08:52 <Karen> …But opening offline is very important to our industry
09:09:01 <Karen> …I need to be able to take my book and read whenever I want
09:09:08 <Karen> …whether in a plane or library
09:09:15 <Karen> …I need to be able to do whatever I want
09:09:21 <Karen> …We have to figure this out and be able to work together
09:09:32 <Karen> …We have a lot of work ahead of us and get to that "kumbaya moment"
09:09:53 <Karen> Bill McCoy: I am going to talk about the people issues and the risks and what we have to be fearful of
09:10:00 <Karen> …and not talk about technical solutions
09:10:07 <Karen> …I am very interested in future solutions and technology
09:10:16 <Karen> …but today I want to talk about the people side
09:10:36 <Karen> …To get to the Nirvhana that Tzviya talked about
09:10:46 <Karen> …where end users can publish easily to the Web
09:10:58 <Karen> …and big corporations can publish to Web for online and offline distributions
09:11:02 <Karen> …and it's all Nirvanna
09:11:11 <Karen> …Thanks to the publishing industry engagement
09:11:18 <Karen> …other parts of the Web will advance more rapidly
09:11:25 <Karen> …like Web payments, IoT, Accessibility
09:11:32 <Karen> …that is the Paradise we want to get to
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09:11:39 <Karen> …but it's not going to happen quickly
09:11:51 <Karen> …this seamless online/offline may not happen
09:11:55 <Karen> …tech standards work is slo
09:11:56 <Karen> w
09:12:08 <Karen> …some publishing industry people are not aware of what is going on
09:12:14 <Karen> …we have risk for disappointment
09:12:20 <Karen> …we think we are going after paradise
09:12:29 <Karen> …but we are slogging along to achieve some minor things
09:12:34 <Karen> …but it's totally worthwhile
09:12:41 <Karen> …the fact that Nirvanna won't happen
09:12:48 <Karen> …don't mistake a clear view for a short distance
09:12:54 <Karen> …this is not going to be a short distance
09:13:01 <Karen> …We should be very happy if in the next two years
09:13:08 <Karen> …my slides today are hand coded HTL
09:13:15 <Karen> s/HTML
09:13:24 <Karen> …if we can take some incremental steps
09:13:29 <Karen> …for publications on the Web
09:13:36 <Karen> …and tell if a browser supports MathML
09:13:44 <Karen> …and bridge gap between accessible content or not
09:13:53 <Karen> …make things closer to online world
09:14:10 <Karen> …without achieving the 'grand unified theory' like Einstein who did not achieve that
09:14:14 <Karen> …we can approach
09:14:21 <Karen> …we are on the low slope of the asotope
09:14:30 <Karen> …I want to encourage us all to be wary of reject shock
09:14:48 <Karen> …that people from publishing industries come in and feel they cannot do it
09:15:01 <Karen> …W3C understands concepts of "bikeshedding' and "not invented here"
09:15:13 <Karen> …but EPUB people may like a paint color and want not to change
09:15:22 <Karen> …we need to drink beer together and it's going to take years
09:15:29 <Ralph> [ -> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bikeshedding "bikeshedding" ]
09:15:33 <Karen> …but we have to recognize it's going to take some head butting and challenges
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09:15:47 <Karen> …but we will work towards this Kumbaya
09:15:50 <Karen> ack Daniel
09:16:06 <Karen> Daniel: One of greatest things from the IDPF-W3C merger is the investment of browsers into the W3C groups
09:16:16 <Karen> …and more importantly the investment of the publishers into the W3C groups
09:16:28 <Karen> …companies are not always interested in the "minor" uses of the Web
09:16:37 <Karen> …may not be interesting for them to follow
09:16:45 <Karen> …a "dinosaur" of the past
09:16:58 <Karen> …if you can join these groups like Web Platform that are interesting for publications
09:17:03 <Karen> …then you will have much greater weight
09:17:07 <astearns> setting the expectation at incremental improvement is immensely important
09:17:10 <Karen> …if you are not there, it will be harder for us
09:17:19 <Karen> …liaising is good for two different standards bodies
09:17:26 <Karen> …but post merger you have to be everywhere
09:17:28 <tzviya> +1
09:17:35 <Karen> …if EPUB is successful it will have to come into W3C
09:17:41 <Karen> Tzviya: I agree
09:17:46 <Karen> George: your name?
09:17:53 <Karen> Daniel: Daniel Glazman
09:17:57 <Karen> Leonard Rosenthal
09:18:12 <Karen> Leonard: The title of the panel does not reflect discussion
09:18:24 <Karen> …group has focused on publications
09:18:33 <Karen> …how do you focus on publications and documents in that scope
09:18:40 <Karen> …you talked about the outreach to global publishers
09:18:49 <Karen> …and what about outreach to the global publishers of documents
09:18:54 <Karen> Bill: you are right
09:19:03 <Karen> …I tried to explain there are many publishing industries
09:19:19 <Karen> …I tend to avoid document in W3C land that we tend to get shackled with
09:19:28 <Karen> …I want to make different version from Dave Cramer's
09:19:42 <Karen> …with soccer schedules and different things from PDF land
09:20:03 <Karen> …I laughed yesterday after the mad scramble yesterday, it took hours for the schedule to get up on the Web
09:20:05 <Karen> …even at the W3C
09:20:24 <Karen> …whereas if someone had just put up a PDF it would have taken 10 minutes
09:20:34 <Karen> …we need to make it easier and to democratize
09:20:44 <Karen> …I am excited about discussion from Tuesday about descoping
09:20:48 <Karen> …we need to be very careful
09:20:55 <Karen> …just because big publishers are joining
09:21:04 <Karen> …communication and publishing is a grassroots thing
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09:21:14 <Karen> …and we cannot be driven only by commercial and book publishers
09:21:21 <Karen> Garth: I think it's a terminology issue
09:21:26 <Karen> …I do say publications all the time
09:21:38 <Karen> …I think that documents, books are children of publications
09:21:49 <Karen> …an example, no one is going to write Moby Dick in Google docs
09:21:59 <Karen> …they are going to write a newsletter or in InDesign
09:22:04 <Karen> …that has expect in EPUB
09:22:16 <Karen> …smaller things in Google docs which has export to EPUB
09:22:24 <Karen> Bill: Wiley and Random House don't care
09:22:33 <Karen> Tzviya: We do care; our authors write in whatever format they want
09:22:42 <Karen> …we care about documents, but people will do whatever they want
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09:22:56 <Karen> …Dave reminds me I cannot tell James Patterson how to write
09:23:04 <Karen> …People tell us it's too hard to work on EPUB
09:23:13 <Karen> …To quote Tim from last night, we have to keep things simple
09:23:21 <Karen> …Whatever we create, it has to be easy to do this
09:23:38 <Karen> …If it's easy, then people will write their schedules or Moby Dick or their Nobel winning papers in this format
09:23:44 <Karen> …and maybe Math will be part of it
09:23:54 <Karen> Bill: If the word publisher is out of picture and you are just an author
09:24:05 <Karen> …kids' soccer letter just has an 'author'
09:24:17 <Karen> …the use case of 'author equals publisher' cannot be in the back
09:24:21 <Karen> Ivan: other questions
09:24:26 <Karen> Steve Zilles, Adobe
09:24:37 <Karen> Steve: I like the notion of a browser friendly format that is off-lineable
09:24:52 <Karen> …when you have a package it is relatively easy to ensure security of the package
09:25:09 <Karen> …We are living in a world where everyone is trying to break into your system, especially if it's an active device
09:25:23 <Karen> …how do you see providing protection to these "BFFs"
09:25:28 <Karen> …Browser friendly formats
09:25:39 <Karen> Bill: we are not going to reinvent the Web security model, as Mike Smith said
09:25:46 <Karen> Leonard: Mike and I keep challenging that
09:25:54 <Karen> …not reinvent Web Security model
09:26:00 <Karen> …I agree, but it needs to be extended
09:26:08 <Karen> Bill: Steve was talking about unpackaged case
09:26:14 <Karen> …in packaged case we have it solved
09:26:19 <Karen> …but we need to think about that more
09:26:32 <Karen> Leonard: What PDF and EPUB do is not compatable with the Web security model
09:26:43 <Karen> …if we want on and off web security, we have to maintain that model
09:26:59 <Karen> …it's a model people understand and it's standardized in W3C
09:27:10 <Karen> …It's absolutely TBD and we need to spend time on this
09:27:29 <Karen> Garth: with protesters not there now, there is encryption and security around that
09:27:39 <Karen> …which gets you walled gardens that are bad for end users of the content
09:27:53 <Karen> …it's unclear whether these efforts are going to be steps towards resolving these problems
09:27:57 <Karen> …there is room for evolution
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09:28:06 <Karen> Bill: important point we glossed over
09:28:20 <Karen> …that should be done from the top down
09:28:24 <Karen> …we have this packaged thing
09:28:31 <Karen> …have to do work from bottom up and top down
09:28:37 <Karen> …what is the minimum to do from the online world
09:28:46 <Karen> Rick Johnson, IngramContent
09:29:02 <Karen> Rick: We have two relatively mature industries coming together with many assumptions
09:29:13 <Karen> …we'll have to unpack these and not put stakes in the ground now
09:29:18 <Karen> …have to keep working on these
09:29:24 <Karen> Bill Kasdorf, BISG
09:29:30 <Karen> Bill: I have spoken about convergence
09:29:37 <glazou> q+
09:29:39 <Karen> …it means both sides have value and both sides have to move
09:29:44 <Karen> …how much we take for granted
09:29:52 <Karen> …in EPUB children's books
09:30:01 <Karen> …behind that is technology that came out years ago
09:30:05 <Karen> …like accessibility
09:30:11 <Karen> George: that was from W3C
09:30:24 <Karen> BillK: now the publishing community is not thinking about accessibility we just do @
09:30:32 <Karen> …another obvious example is Flash
09:30:35 <Karen> …we don't need it now
09:30:42 <tzviya> s/@/SMIL
09:30:43 <Karen> …but a few years ago that's all publishers used
09:30:58 <tzviya> ack gl
09:30:58 <Karen> …Real publishers is getting us toward that Nirvanna; we are getting those bits and pieces
09:31:13 <Karen> Daniel: there is an area of difference between IDPF and W3C that is mentioned but not often enough
09:31:20 <Karen> …because it is going to hit us quite fast
09:31:23 <Karen> …and that is testing
09:31:30 <Karen> Ivan; We did discussed
09:31:43 <Karen> Daniel: ok, but Testing takes a lot of time and energy
09:31:49 <Karen> …who is going to discuss it and how
09:31:53 <Karen> …it is going to be a pain
09:32:02 <Karen> Ivan: we started to discuss this on Tuesday afternoon
09:32:09 <Karen> …this has to be discussed in the WG
09:32:15 <Karen> …in an IG it is premature
09:32:22 <Karen> …but we will need to put that as part of WG
09:32:31 <Karen> Daniel: there is a corollary question
09:32:35 <Karen> …maintain 3.1
09:32:42 <Karen> …but what is going to happen to testing?
09:32:46 <Karen> …we have to work together
09:32:52 <Karen> Ivan; I think this will be part of the details
09:33:05 <Karen> …when the discussions continue between the two organizations
09:33:19 <Karen> …testing has to be taken over as part of the maintenance at W3C
09:33:31 <Karen> Bill: some of this is insufficient in terms of W3C standards
09:33:39 <Karen> …bringing these things together is not going to be easy
09:33:52 <Karen> …like bringing together people from France and England
09:34:00 <Karen> …this WG focus is not clear yet
09:34:13 <Karen> …cannot imagine it as a clean hand-over
09:34:19 <Karen> …premature for the unified roadmap
09:34:23 <Karen> …but it must include testing
09:34:26 <Karen> Luc, Hachette
09:34:29 <Karen> Luc: we have to keep in mind
09:34:38 <Karen> …we are some here from the publishing industry but we are very few
09:34:56 <Karen> …book publishing has hundreds of years of history and quality
09:35:03 <Karen> …there is no roadmap for future
09:35:10 <Karen> …we are aware of OWP and standards
09:35:22 <Karen> …for digital publishing
09:35:30 <Karen> …we achieved digpub with EPUB
09:35:48 <Karen> …I am afraid that not many people in the publishing industry are aware of the challenges and what is at stake with this mering
09:35:51 <Karen> s/merging
09:35:55 <Karen> …it's important to keep in mind
09:35:58 <Karen> …we are willing to go
09:36:03 <Karen> …to transform this industry
09:36:19 <Karen> ..not only in terms of marketing but also in terms of techniques to create and to bring the author's ideas to the market
09:36:29 <Karen> Ivan: Shall we take a break?
09:36:36 <Karen> Garth: thank you for this discussion
09:36:41 <Karen> Bill: we are back here at 11:00am
09:36:45 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:36:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html Karen
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10:04:25 <leonardr> George: president of IDPF and member of the DPIG
10:04:39 <leonardr> Judy: director of web accessibility initiative of W3C
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10:04:54 <dauwhe> scribenick: leonardr
10:05:10 <leonardr> Charles: tech lead fro born a18y at benetech and chair of a18y documents
10:05:22 <leonardr> George: preparing this presentation for 20 years (or longer).
10:05:34 <leonardr> ..back in the 80's there was movement towards dig books in a18y community.
10:05:52 <leonardr> ...working with SGML folks which morphed towards HTML 1.0
10:06:23 <leonardr> ...the blind community was supported by libraries and it "simply" needed to transition to digital (from analog)
10:06:36 <leonardr> ...lots happeend before eBooks in '99
10:06:56 <ivan> ivan has joined #dpub
10:07:01 <leonardr> ...same people also were excited in web a18y as well - '97
10:07:13 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:07:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
10:07:29 <leonardr> ...I was asked to help steer the web a18y back then
10:07:55 <leonardr> ...and that was part of why DAISY chose the web technology, becaus there was already a connection
10:08:11 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
10:08:20 <leonardr> ...I believe that web a18y was always guiding the IDPF work
10:08:49 <leonardr> ...moving fwd to when EPUB 3.1 work started, there was an oppt to start a specific doc around EPUB & A18y
10:08:57 <leonardr> ...Avneesh and Charles chair that
10:09:11 <leonardr> ...there was also a piece of work around WCAG and electronic publishing
10:09:32 <leonardr> Charles: wht we wanted to do was find gaps in WCAG that werent covered in DigiPub
10:09:54 <leonardr> ...went through all techniques and found holes that DAISY had most addressed, especially around skippability, etc.
10:10:10 <leonardr> ...needed to shine spotlight on these gaps
10:10:22 <leonardr> ...also found other areas such as annotations, positioning, etc. that are already being worked on
10:10:35 <leonardr> ...but things like Math are kicking off in new groups
10:10:46 <hjlee> hjlee has joined #dpub
10:10:55 <leonardr> ...and then put these things inot the guidelines and a Note was published
10:11:24 <leonardr> George: conformance side, heard from many others about epubtest.org for conformance of RS
10:11:51 <leonardr> ...on a18y, but creating a test book with no errors that could be used to eval the RS on a18y
10:12:19 <leonardr> ...32 evaluations so far on RS+AT (eg. NVDA + ADE)
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10:13:08 <leonardr> ...but we did with the EPUB A18y spec, was to use WCAG (no new wheels!) but add new success criteria
10:13:38 <leonardr> ...this is a public spec for all of EPUB, not jsut 3.1
10:14:05 <leonardr> ...in terms of conformance, Charles tell us about metadata and how we're using it
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10:14:26 <leonardr> Charles: in our guidelnes, we have discoverability enabled publications
10:14:33 <leonardr> ...in collaboration with schema.org
10:15:04 <leonardr> ...additional metadata per publication that enables discoverability of a18y features (or hazards) on a given publication
10:15:23 <leonardr> ...eg textual, visual, auditory, tactile, etc.
10:15:59 <leonardr> ...a textbook with a few images with no alt=text, would require a visual and textual to consume it.  BUT if there was alt-text, textual only is fine
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10:16:34 <leonardr> ...also have metadata that enables 3rd parties to claim conformance to XXXX standard (and what version of same)
10:16:47 <leonardr> ...and who did the certification (if any)
10:16:58 <leonardr> ...there is also a summary (human readable) about a18y
10:17:32 <leonardr> George: AccessModeSufficient - if you have text, that means it can xformed to text->speech, to braille, etc.
10:17:55 <leonardr> ...if you have that, you can probably access all the content in just about any AT method
10:18:24 <leonardr> ...certification metadata is again about making a claim.  You MUST it to claim it - either by publisher or 3rd party
10:18:47 <leonardr> ...this enables market to determine what is accessible and what is not
10:18:50 <leonardr> ...very use for EDU
10:19:08 <leonardr> ...this is all work that was done before
10:19:35 <leonardr> Judy: I am speaking to people from IDPF to fill you in on W3C work
10:19:48 <leonardr> ...even though we've been doing a18y together for a while
10:20:18 <leonardr> ...please reach out to me if you have stuff you'd like to address in a18y or publishing  (myself or other staff)
10:20:39 <leonardr> ...W3C is a vendor neutral consuritum to develop standards for the web - "Web for All"
10:21:12 <leonardr> ...Open Web Platform (based on HTML5), including A18y as a core component
10:21:26 <leonardr> ...so that every spec is reviewed for a18y considerations
10:22:20 <leonardr> ...Web Accessibility nitiative has been around for a long time.  currently undergoing reorg to distribute the work
10:22:54 <leonardr> ...cross-disability and aging, cross-technology conerns, developerment of specs, education, etc.
10:23:24 <leonardr> ...web a18y including vision, hearing, motor, speech, cognitive and much more...
10:23:46 <leonardr> ...publishing is not visual but its many more such as cognitive, learning, motor, etc.
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10:24:22 <leonardr> ...there has been a series of pub & a18y efforts already
10:25:02 <leonardr> ...and looking forward to building even more, epecially for things such as ARIA
10:25:28 <leonardr> ...WCAG is a document that is considered a core standard world wide
10:25:36 <leonardr> ...not just for the web
10:26:00 <leonardr> ...content should be percievale, operable, understandable and robust
10:26:32 <leonardr> ...one of the big items on WCAG is that is has a layered design so that below those key thigns there are guidelines towards make them happen
10:26:42 <leonardr> ...and there are tons of great examples we've already done
10:27:05 <leonardr> ...and then you finally have success criteria that define if you have actually achieved your goals
10:27:27 <leonardr> ...and most of them are technology neutral since the techniques are per-technology
10:28:00 <leonardr> ..."you can use WCAG to make anything accessible"
10:28:08 <leonardr> ...some current work in a18y at W3C
10:28:34 <leonardr> ...update to WCAG 2.0 with expanded coverage in cognative and low vision
10:28:47 <leonardr> ...ATAG and UAAG completed in 2015
10:29:00 <leonardr> ...exploring needs for a possible WCAG 3.0 in a future
10:29:56 <leonardr> ...also looking into authoring tool a18y for producing a18y content AND how to do any authoring accessibly
10:30:32 <leonardr> ...there is a bunch of conformance testing around WCAG 2.
10:30:49 <leonardr> ...human expert tests, semi-automated tests and fully automated tests
10:32:36 <leonardr> ...work going on in a CG around even more automated testing
10:33:02 <leonardr> ...that is now a TF in the WCAG group to work on an actual test harness and procedures
10:33:34 <leonardr> ...then see if we can move some semi-autos into autos using the new framework
10:33:55 <leonardr> ...name is "Accessibility Conformance Testing" TF
10:35:04 <leonardr> ...WCAG 2 has a LOT of supporting education materials to understading what it is, why we have it, how to implement it, etc
10:35:41 <leonardr> ...also many 3rd parties with materials as well
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10:35:56 <leonardr> www.w3.org/WAI
10:36:07 <leonardr> ...has all the material you will need
10:36:18 <leonardr> George; BISG quick start guide is a great initial rererence
10:36:34 <leonardr> ...in the appendix there is additional support rererences that point to W3
10:36:59 <leonardr> ...DAISY was given a grant by Google to make a impact
10:37:17 <leonardr> ...establish a baseline of accessibility and then build tools for testing and compliance
10:37:48 <leonardr> ...first step was the EPUB A18y spec, and that is the baseline (WCAG A, AA or AAA)
10:38:14 <leonardr> ...plus you have to add a variety of other items for DigPub
10:38:33 <leonardr> ...since verything an't be qutomted, there will be a process document about how to evaluate contnet
10:38:47 <leonardr> ....and software woud help people follow that process
10:39:03 <leonardr> ...Avneesh and Raman are both here and part of the TF
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10:39:15 <leonardr> ...on a short timeframe in advance of the ACT TF
10:39:40 <leonardr> Judy: in transition between CG->WG, so peple have a perfect opp to sign up
10:39:49 <leonardr> George: open for Q & A
10:40:00 <tzviya> q?
10:40:21 <leonardr> ...we know that the publishers want a "good housekeeping seal" on their documents and schools want to searh on that
10:40:36 <leonardr> ...but can't do it now!
10:40:53 <leonardr> ...biggest impact is the baseline and declaration of support
10:41:22 <leonardr> Charles: the whole supply chain is critical in ensuring the A18y - from author to publisher to aggregator to ...
10:41:45 <leonardr> ...they all need to make sure that al the tools are a18y aware ad dont damage the content
10:42:11 <leonardr> George: having that statement is a huge start
10:42:39 <clapierre> q?
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10:42:59 <leonardr> Avneesh: it is beautiful to see that the combination of the work between IDPF and WCAG is a great thing
10:43:21 <leonardr> ...but what is the path forward for such metadata in the web?
10:43:50 <leonardr> charles: in the guidelines (2.4), there is support for things such as TOC, navigation, etc.
10:44:10 <leonardr> Judy: not sure there is a gap but there is a team doing the gap identification (@tzviya?)
10:44:32 <leonardr> ...but it should be possile to add new tehnique as we go foward as they are identified
10:44:47 <leonardr> ...either 2.x or Silver (3.0)
10:44:53 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:44:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
10:45:13 <leonardr> ...but the timing is great to get this all working
10:45:34 <leonardr> Tsviya: get involved!
10:45:38 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
10:46:13 <leonardr> Charles: page numbers are a big issue and there may not be a print equivalent to which you need to match.  but with more born digital, that maynot be true.
10:46:28 <ivan> s/Tsviya/Tzviya/
10:46:31 <leonardr> ...and if there wasnt a print equiv, you probably want something else for navigation
10:47:02 <leonardr> Judy: different technology paradigms are going to be a big issue as the grups come together - pages (and their numbers) are a good example.
10:47:20 <leonardr> ...you will probably need to educate this community about your needs
10:47:30 <leonardr> ...and let them know why they are important
10:47:50 <leonardr> BillM: all done
10:48:03 <leonardr> Judy: reach out to us for more...
10:48:15 <leonardr> <changing panels>
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10:49:49 <leonardr> three topics: CSS work/Houdini, Web payments, web fonts
10:50:22 <ivan> scribenick: liam
10:50:24 <liam> scribenick: Liam
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10:51:10 <liam> [Alan Stearns speaks without slides]
10:51:47 <liam> astearns: motivation for Houdini... I'm not a publisher or designer; my motivation is making tools for them to express what they want
10:52:12 <liam> When I started with dtp at Aldus it was a toy technology in terms of its functionality, but had clear benefits already.
10:52:21 <liam> The output was laughably inept.
10:52:40 <liam> It got better. We moved from a toy basis to a mostly-annoying phase.
10:52:48 <liam> You had to do a lot of manual teaking.
10:53:28 <liam> I think we emerged around 2001 or so, after several iterations of [Adobe] InDesign, when the new tools were better in every respect than what they replaced.
10:53:36 <liam> But by then there was a new technology, the Web.
10:54:05 <liam> It was interesting to be able to get things on people's screens, but what they were seeing was... inept. It has got better.
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10:54:29 <liam> Now we're well into the "annoying" phase for the Web. You can get what you want, but there's so much tweaking, from a designer's perspective, to get where you want.
10:54:57 <liam> Since the Web relies on browsers, you now longer have access to the manual tweaking; you have to use CSS hacks and scripting.
10:55:10 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
10:55:21 <liam> I've been involved with the CSS WG trying to build in capabilities that you need in the browser, and also to make the script-based tweaking better.
10:55:44 <liam> Now we have flexbox and grid, that the Web never had before; they started before my invovlement but I'm making sure they're getting done.
10:56:05 <liam> Hyphenation has been a personal crusade of mine and [is happening]. Now I'm working on baseline grids,
10:56:21 <liam> something that every other publishing technology has ever had!
10:56:35 <liam> And we're adding opentype variation fort support.
10:56:39 <liam> s/fort/font/
10:57:09 <liam> But there will be tweaking. So in another room today, the Houdini Task Force is meeting to talk about how to expose more of the style infrastructure to scripting.
10:57:39 <liam> How to make styling easier to do, or possible to do; first few steps will reduce the coding in e.g. Readium, & to make it run faster.
10:57:59 <liam> Maybe also you can do things like baseline grids in scripting with Houdini - can't today at all.
10:58:04 <liam> I need all of your help.
10:58:18 <liam> I need the people in your organizations who are wrestling with the Web's current annoyances.
10:58:29 <liam> The people coming up with CSS hacks. The developers writing JS to get things done.
10:58:53 <liam> I need you to come to the CSS WG, to Houdini. We need to feel your pain.
10:59:22 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:00:43 <liam> We now have custom properties, so e.g if epub needed a new property, the browsers will keep it, and Houdini is working on letting you say whether the property is inherited, the ability to validate the values. Also working on
11:01:25 <liam> ...the typed object model [OM]. Getting/setting values involves a lot of string code today; with typed OM the values will work natively.
11:02:28 <liam> [Ian Jacobs enters the room to talk about Web Payments]
11:02:56 <liam> ij: the Web Payments IG seeks to make payments easier and more secure at checkout.
11:03:17 <liam> Looking for standards opportunities, regulatory concerns, liaison, but focus is checkout.
11:03:32 <liam> The first aspect is enhancing the browser to it helps the users make payments more quickly.
11:04:02 <liam> The second aspect is Payment Apps.
11:04:15 <liam> A person goes to an online store and pressed a Buy button.
11:04:50 <liam> browser asks merchant what's accepted [visa and mastercard, say]
11:05:46 <liam> (API is intended to help solve "Nascar problem" where there are too many logos.)
11:06:29 <liam> So the browser now turns to the payment app. User has registered credit/debit cards with the browser.
11:08:35 <liam> user picks a card, browser sends detail via payment app [scribe uncertain here]
11:09:04 <liam> The web payments IG hopes this will make web payments easier.
11:10:39 <liam> The API also has a "matchmaker" protocol via inter-ledger payments - you'd just say how you want to pay, not see what the merchant prefers.
11:10:49 <liam> Can fall back to classical checkout procedures.
11:11:07 <liam> Bill_Kasdorf: so the merchant no longer needs to keep a record of my credit card number
11:11:44 <liam> ij: I want to distinguish payment credentials from identity of the person shopping. Many sites will still want to retain a customer relationsip.
11:12:05 <liam> Merchants don't want a customer card number. They use e.g. braintree to take the liability.
11:12:26 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:12:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
11:12:51 <liam> someone: some large merchants want this information. How will that affect things?
11:13:03 <tzviya> s/someone/BillM
11:13:12 <liam> ij: merchants may not want the credit cards. E.g. uber uses braintree.
11:13:28 <Avneesh> q+
11:14:00 <liam> one way for cenvenience is local (browser) storage rather than e.g. Amazon or Google storing the card.
11:14:26 <liam> q: so where does the liability and privacy end?
11:14:44 <liam> ij: so eg. https will help. But there are some interesting questions about who responsible for what.
11:15:02 <liam> Payment apps will have some responsibility. E.g. you get an app from yuor bank and they want to know it's you
11:15:18 <liam> ... So they might use Web authentication (another Working Group's product).
11:16:11 <liam> Avneesh: I was in a meeting, analyzing why epub not picking up in Asia.
11:16:24 <liam> The Asian countries are not on the online payment mode.
11:16:45 <liam> Maybe the payment is added to the user's 'phone bill. Is this flexible enough to support this?
11:17:12 <liam> ij: great question! I talked about the bigger picture - there are lots of different payment methods, and we're trying to understand about real payment methods in practice.
11:17:19 <liam> We've separated the payment method from the user experience.
11:18:02 <liam> We've made a standard process, we mentioned credit cards & bitcoin but there can be lots of others. So yes it's a goal to be very flexible & we're trying to work with others & confirm that flexibility.
11:19:04 <liam> You mentioned carrier billing, a broader question. E.g. my payment app from my phone company would support the payment method, and when the merchant that accepts taht & I have an app for it there's a match & it works
11:19:49 <Karen> Liam: I know from working from working with NACS
11:20:03 <Karen> …in practice a small merchant is not allowed to keep a customers' Visa number
11:20:06 <Karen> ..but they lie to Visa
11:20:15 <Karen> …if you run a convenience store with a filling station
11:20:27 <Karen> …every now and then someone will drive off without paying
11:20:39 <Karen> …or someone will use a stolen card
11:21:26 <Karen> …your system needs to supports this unusual use case
11:22:26 <liam> ij: merchants make a business decision whether to use old system, but could still do it.
11:22:58 <liam> [Chris Lilley introduces Fonts]
11:23:07 <liam> Originally Web used Platform Fonts, system-specific
11:23:21 <liam> Then there was basic font download.
11:23:43 <liam> [shows opentype ligatures, opentype features]
11:24:19 <liam> Chris: example - font-varant-numerc: oldstyle/lining numbers, for whether digits are lower-case or upper-case.
11:24:35 <liam> Another example - fractions
11:24:53 <liam> using diagonal-fractions feature.
11:25:08 <liam> e.g for 13/27
11:25:42 <liam> proportional vs fixed-width digits
11:26:54 <liam> [shows discretionary ligatures]
11:27:27 <liam> [shows font-synthesis to tell the browser whether to fake bold or slanted fonts if not available]
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11:28:34 <liam> [font-kerning and letter-spacing] "normal" turns kerning on.
11:29:05 <Rebeca> Hello! Just entered into the room. Is there any link to the presentation?
11:29:21 <liam> kerning is for specific pairs of characters, letterspacing is for all characters.
11:29:37 <liam> Woff is a font-specific compression for browsers.
11:30:30 <liam> Woff2 makes more use of font-specific compression techniques, e.g. not transmitting a bounding box when it can be calculated.
11:31:27 <liam> woff 2 fonts tend to average about 32% of the size of the original font; woff 1 were 45% of the size.
11:32:00 <liam> On mobile, the last 2% size gains uses too much CPU to decompress, duobles decode time!
11:33:04 <liam> [colour fonts for illuminated manuscripts... or actually for emoji]
11:35:09 <liam> example: tradition of hand-painted signage in India Painter Kafeel. Shows using CSS to change the colours in an SVG colour font in firefox & edge. Coming to the Chrome browser.
11:35:43 <liam> Opentype 1.8 arrived last week with font variations, like multiple masters or GX.
11:36:27 <liam> Download one font and get five diffrent weights, condensed and wide version, optical size, slant, etc, so big change.
11:36:34 <liam> font can have custom axes too.
11:36:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:36:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
11:37:30 <liam> Ralph: [thanks Chris]
11:37:32 <liam> [lunch]
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12:36:08 <ivan> scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf
12:36:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: HBG has produced over 1,000 titles as HTML + CSS = PDF
12:37:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . and sold over 50,000,000 print books done this way,
12:37:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . It costs much less than offshore typesetting.
12:37:38 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
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12:37:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . We love this! It just plain works.
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12:38:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Admittedly, most of our books are fiction and straightforward nonfiction.
12:38:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . But we still care about good typography and layout.
12:39:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . So I tried doing a travel guide--very complex, very graphic. Possible? Yes!
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12:40:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . [He showed the code to prove it. See his slides.]
12:40:26 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:40:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html clapierre
12:40:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . He even did an image that crosses a spread.
12:42:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . There's whole class of software called CSS Formatters that is how this is done.
12:42:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . He uses one called Prince. Antenna House makes another one.
12:43:30 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #dpub
12:44:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Also showed picking up page numbers for a TOC, including a detailed chapter TOC.
12:45:07 <hjlee> hjlee has joined #dpub
12:46:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . See spec: CSS Generated Content for Paged Media Module [need url]
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12:47:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Dave wants to use the same tools and technologies to make print and digital books. IDPF + W3C.
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12:49:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . This isn't WYSIWYG. This is code based, template based composition.
12:50:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> Florian: The Web is the universal medium, for everyone, for every culture.
12:50:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Conceptual model of CSS is great for print, but the implementation is lacking.
12:50:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Vivliostyle addresses this, without forking CSS.
12:51:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Showed a book on CSS created entirely in CSS with SVG images.
12:51:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . It's the Japanese edition.
12:52:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Uses modern aspects of CSS like flexbox.
12:52:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Exact same result in PDF and in the browser.
12:53:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Major/minor columns mirrored on verso/recto.
12:53:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Generates the pagebreak markers for index/toc functionality.
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12:54:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Can consume either a single HTML document or a loose collection of HTML docs or an EPUB.
12:54:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Also responsive.
12:54:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Reflow recalculates page numbers in real time.
12:55:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . [oohs and ahhs]
12:56:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . Accommodates scrolling: showed a code block that scrolls a region within the page.
13:00:20 <astearns> Vivliostyle
13:00:58 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:00:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
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13:01:46 <ivan> scribenick: tzviya
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13:06:19 <tzviya> ...We closed the XML WG
13:07:00 <tzviya> ...There is built in support for spreads, column spreads,
13:07:14 <tzviya> ...These are things that don't exist in CSS
13:07:21 <tzviya> Can be done with vendor extensions
13:07:52 <tzviya> We are trying to fill the gaps and are working to standardize some of the things needed for books.
13:08:25 <tzviya> Liam: There are some schools that teach XSL for publishers
13:08:40 <tzviya> ...not many (any?) that teach CSS for publishers
13:09:01 <tzviya> ...My goal is to help make CSS fill the needs of publishers
13:09:30 <tzviya> ...We do not need to take everything that FO does, but there are aspects from it to move into CSS.
13:10:04 <tzviya> ...We also need to take the needs of self-publishing into consideration
13:10:31 <tzviya> ...we need to use finishing, such as gilt spines, JDF, etc.
13:10:41 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html tzviya
13:11:25 <tzviya> BillM: How soon can you stop using formatters, add-ons, etc?
13:11:41 <tzviya> ...Are we close to CSS-FO?
13:12:31 <tzviya> FLorian: There are various tools that are implemented today. Not all of this is standard, but we are here to make it standard.
13:12:44 <tzviya> ...Specs move slowly, but we are working on them.
13:13:18 <tzviya> Dauwhe: We have relatively stable specs that have been implemented by the formatters, not the browsers
13:13:39 <tzviya> Ivan: The fact that you do it proves it can be done
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13:15:04 <dauwhe> link to Dave Cramer slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2016Sep/0004.html
13:15:06 <tzviya> Liam: Houdini is opening the browser up to scripting, which may help with layout
13:15:29 <tzviya> ...as these happen in Houdini polyfills
13:15:49 <tzviya> BillM: And publishers need to particapte more
13:15:52 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:15:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
13:16:12 <tzviya> Liam: File bugs against browsers
13:16:24 <tzviya> Dave: and a pull request!
13:16:48 <tzviya> Florian: and a business case
13:17:31 <tzviya> astearns: Echoing bill. People have been asking for this for a long time, but we need to convince browsers that there is real demand
13:18:05 <tzviya> leonardr: CSS and the Web push the envelope when it comes to design
13:18:07 <astearns> s/for this/for paginated views/
13:18:37 <tzviya> ...Have you run into limitations when it comes to print? Has the Web overtaken print?
13:18:49 <tzviya> Dave: Yes, people want emojis in print
13:19:08 <tzviya> Florian: You can do whatever you want with pen and paper
13:19:21 <tzviya> ...but if you stretch the paper, it looks odd
13:19:42 <tzviya> ...CSS is for all sizes, and it works for a range of sizes
13:20:22 <tzviya> Pbelfanti: The reality is that most publishers don't produce most of their products, so we need to get their vendors involved
13:20:36 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
13:20:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html tzviya
13:21:31 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
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13:23:03 <dauwhe> laudrain: epub and web publishing tooling
13:23:07 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
13:23:26 <dauwhe> laurent: I'm CTO of EDRLab
13:23:50 <dauwhe> glazou: I'm from Disruptive Innovations
13:23:56 <olivexu> olivexu has joined #dpub
13:24:03 <dauwhe> ... I started working on SGML rendering in 1990
13:24:08 <dauwhe> ... and lots of other things
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13:24:49 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: EDRLab is created by french publishers, representing 75% of publishing in france
13:25:05 <dauwhe> ... and SNE
13:25:23 <dauwhe> ... and French ministry of culture
13:25:31 <dauwhe> ... we did the EPUB summit in Bordeaux in April
13:25:52 <dauwhe> ... there will be an EPUB Summit in 2017, location TBD
13:26:01 <dauwhe> ... we are workiing on Readium LCP
13:26:07 <dauwhe> ... "user friendly DRM"
13:26:32 <dauwhe> ... avoid complexity for the user, and will be interoperable, accessible, and managed by nonprofit
13:26:50 <dauwhe> laudrain: books are old citizens
13:27:18 <dauwhe> ... web does not yet have the typographic excellence that is required
13:27:36 <dauwhe> ... we now release print and epub at the time time
13:27:46 <dauwhe> ... we have embraced epub because of the OWP
13:28:26 <dauwhe> ... what is there today for epub tools, for people who want to create only digital versions
13:29:09 <dauwhe> ... why aren't there many tools, unlike for creating websites
13:29:53 <dauwhe> glazou: my editor is based on gecko
13:30:02 <dauwhe> ... you can apply any css3/4 features
13:30:10 <dauwhe> ... you can access manifest/spine/package
13:30:14 <dauwhe> ... epub2 and epub3
13:30:22 <dauwhe> ... it is fully internationalized
13:30:36 <dauwhe> ... thanks to Gecko, so I benefit from web standardization
13:31:02 <dauwhe> ... we have to cobble together workflows from many pieces
13:31:07 <dauwhe> ... we have to hand-edit epubs
13:31:27 <dauwhe> ... ideally I should be able to take the web editor, and add epub features
13:31:32 <dauwhe> ... but it's almost impossible
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13:31:44 <dauwhe> ... because of the proprietary XML in epub, and the packaging
13:31:51 <dauwhe> ... because there's no file api
13:31:56 <dauwhe> ... I can't paginate in my software
13:32:09 <dauwhe> ... our goal now is to have a full editorial chain based on epub
13:32:24 <dauwhe> ... start with epub, you add, you link, you edit, end with epub
13:32:34 <dauwhe> ... with nothing proprietary, only using pure web tech
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13:32:41 <dauwhe> ... the things we really miss:
13:32:43 <dauwhe> ... pagination
13:33:08 <dauwhe> ... pagination is not only for single documents, we need to paginate multi-document views in one viewport
13:33:22 <dauwhe> ... footnotes, counters, page numbers should be cross-document
13:33:47 <dauwhe> ... we should be able to draw on a canvas inside epub
13:33:59 <dauwhe> ... extend contenteditable
13:34:16 <dauwhe> ... we need to go far beyond what the front-end web is able to do to meet the requirements
13:34:26 <dauwhe> ... of publications
13:34:38 <dauwhe> ... we should have new tech features never thought of in the web world
13:34:49 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #dpub
13:34:59 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: I want to talk about client side
13:35:27 <Florian> (late addition to the minutes for the previous session: there are vivliostyle demos here: http://www.vivliostyle.com/en/sample/ and here http://vivliostyle.github.io/vivliostyle.js/samples/TR/)
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13:35:53 <dauwhe> (onlinification failed)
13:36:05 <dauwhe> ... we want to enhance readium
13:36:14 <dauwhe> ... we're launching readium architecture project
13:36:27 <dauwhe> ... add new web tech to readium code
13:36:42 <dauwhe> ... design for readium 2, with big cleaning up of rendering
13:36:52 <dauwhe> ... turning pages is an issue:
13:36:59 <Bert> -> http://readium.org/ Readium
13:37:01 <astearns> readium architecture folks should consult https://drafts.css-houdini.org/css-typed-om/ and http://wicg.github.io/CSS-Parser-API/ and give feedback on whether they would be useful to you
13:37:05 <dauwhe> ... css columns, css regions, css pages, css fragmentation
13:37:12 <dauwhe> ... all this is difficult
13:37:20 <dauwhe> ... houdini is not there yet
13:37:38 <dauwhe> ... we want something better than our columns polyfill
13:37:55 <dauwhe> ... better typographic compositing
13:37:56 <dauwhe> ... service workers
13:38:02 <dauwhe> ... web workers (auto reindexing)
13:38:06 <glazou> tzviya: Sanskrit
13:38:08 <dauwhe> ...file API
13:38:16 <dauwhe> ... better MathML support
13:38:22 <dauwhe> ivan: unless you incorporate mathjax
13:38:24 <glazou> tzviya, dauwhe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
13:39:15 <dauwhe> lrosenthal: this session has been talking about authoring, and even authoring natively
13:39:21 <dauwhe> ... I'll raise two issues
13:39:26 <dauwhe> ... one is around a11y
13:39:28 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
13:39:38 <dauwhe> ... providing tooling to create a11y content
13:39:47 <dauwhe> ... the other is responsive design
13:39:53 <dauwhe> ... providing tools to do that
13:40:03 <dauwhe> glazou: I first tried to make the UI of the app a11y
13:40:06 <dauwhe> ... I'm dealing with ARIA-role
13:40:12 <dauwhe> ... I kept longdesc
13:40:43 <dauwhe> ... in terms of responsive design, I support MQ, but you have to write them yourself
13:40:52 <dauwhe> ... the next version will have something like Adobe ???
13:41:00 <astearns> s/???/reflow/
13:41:01 <dauwhe> ...  you can design MQs visually
13:41:07 <astearns> (also now in DreamWeaver)
13:41:27 <astearns> hmm - and/or perhaps Muse
13:41:46 <dauwhe> ... code will find a way to insert new mqs
13:42:04 <dauwhe> ... trying to hide the complexity of responsive design
13:42:11 <dauwhe> laudrain: in terms of a11y
13:42:25 <dauwhe> ... a tool that reads and writes in epub3 may retain designed a11y
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13:42:42 <dauwhe> ... for only digital projects, some requirements (like page numbers) don't apply
13:42:58 <dauwhe> Avneesh: what about accessibility metadata
13:43:10 <dauwhe> ... a11y in the tool is one thing, but metadata is of high importance
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13:43:23 <dauwhe> laudrain: metadata that describes what features are included?
13:43:42 <dauwhe> ... that can be derived from the structure of the epub itself in the tool
13:44:05 <dauwhe> george: once the epub a11y spec is approved, we would like to see the authoring tools to enable users to add a11y metadata
13:44:20 <dauwhe> ... just like you'd like the user to be able to add alt text when an image is added
13:44:32 <dauwhe> laudrain: it should be possible to automate some of this
13:44:48 <dauwhe> ... and also for a11y metadata that's in ONIX
13:45:02 <dauwhe> astearns: you mentioned the readium architecture reconsiderations
13:45:14 <dauwhe> ... and that it's too early to rely on houdini stuff
13:45:33 <dauwhe> ... but it's a perfect time to consider the proposals, determine if they are useful, and provide feedback
13:46:07 <dauwhe> glazou: in w3c, a constant complaint is that we consider web standards from a browsing point of view, and not the editing view
13:46:14 <dauwhe> ... this community can really help with that
13:46:25 <dauwhe> ... publishers are often on the authoring side
13:46:38 <dauwhe> ... shouldn't a goal be a horizontal editing review
13:46:54 <dauwhe> ivan: if I go back to your first remark , that we are mostly looking at the end users
13:47:10 <dauwhe> ... but there are also users who create systems on top of the browser for other users
13:47:23 <dauwhe> ... publishers or resellers who build up systems that are catalogs of books
13:47:36 <dauwhe> ... what metadata is interesting to be included in a web publication
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13:47:59 <dauwhe> ... much of the metadata is not interesting for the reader, but is interesting for the distributor
13:48:09 <dauwhe> ... that aspect should be more vocal in use cases
13:48:33 <dauwhe> ... the traditional web browser world doesn't care about that
13:48:57 <dauwhe> billM: this means the web needs to take into account more things
13:48:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:48:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-dpub-minutes.html ivan
13:49:00 <dauwhe> ... thanks all for coming
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13:49:33 <dauwhe> ... we'll all be gathering in a room soon :)
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13:49:54 <dauwhe> glazou: we should have euro books in browsers
13:50:11 <dauwhe> billm: there is also ebookcraft
13:50:22 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
13:50:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items