08:02:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
08:02:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-irc
08:02:17 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
08:02:24 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #aria
08:02:46 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #aria
08:02:52 <MichielBijl> present+
08:03:16 <JF> present+ JF
08:03:23 <JF> agenda?
08:03:41 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
08:03:52 <janina> present+ janina
08:04:27 <JF> zakim, who's here?
08:04:27 <Zakim> Present: MichielBijl, JF, janina
08:04:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see mck, mhakkinen, alastairc, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, chaals, JF, mgylling, kim, jamesn, jasonjgw1, Byungjin, richardschwerdtfeger, janina, dcooney, timeless,
08:04:29 <Zakim> ... Josh_Soref, AmeliaBR, MichielBijl, JonathanNeal_, ShaneM, trackbot, joanie
08:04:38 <mhakkinen> present+
08:05:13 <sam> sam has joined #aria
08:05:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+
08:05:16 <jessebeach> jessebeach has joined #aria
08:05:18 <mck> present+ matt_king
08:05:19 <jessebeach> present+
08:05:22 <taekyu> taekyu has joined #aria
08:05:22 <alastairc> present+ alastairc
08:05:37 <jessebeach> present+ jessebeach
08:05:40 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
08:06:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+
08:09:23 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: something that has impacted assessment community, pronunciation by synthetic speech.
08:09:54 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we’re looking on guidance on how to ssml into ??
08:10:34 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #aria
08:10:36 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we get a lot of non-native speakers who need correct pronunciation.
08:10:46 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: you’re looking to send it to the speech API?
08:10:49 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen:
08:10:58 <MichielBijl> s/mhakkinen://
08:11:10 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: should get joanie in this room
08:11:38 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we need to get our content rendered as students and teachers need them
08:12:23 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: Apple has own speech markup, not as sophisticated as ssml, but we can work with it
08:12:36 <dcooney> dcooney has left #aria
08:12:38 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: if we put the ssml in the markup, what happens with Apple?
08:12:46 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we want Apple to support ssml
08:13:00 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: can we add attributes containing the ssml?
08:13:09 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we can come up with own data model
08:13:17 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: you don’t want ssml inline in html
08:13:22 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: attribute model would be nice
08:13:39 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: in context of ARIA, would be nice as a web platform thing
08:13:48 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: you mention HTML, but would also want SVG?
08:14:02 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: all content that should be hinted in some way, we would like these attributes
08:15:07 <MichielBijl> janina: IBM TTS is the only speech dispatcher (apparently)
08:15:33 <MichielBijl> jasonjgw1: if we’re looking for a standard solution and want to share with dpub
08:15:49 <MichielBijl> jasonjgw1: is it desireable to develop in context of ARIA?
08:15:58 <MichielBijl> jasonjgw1: or rather develop it somewhere else?
08:16:14 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: if not here, we’ll look somewhere else
08:16:23 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: don’t think it’s an ARIA thing
08:16:37 <MichielBijl> janina: ever platform has their own speech API
08:16:45 <MichielBijl> janina: little bit of a chain for each platform
08:17:06 <MichielBijl> jasonjgw1: has to go through all sort of systems, AT, speech API, etc
08:17:20 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: how does that ssml mark up get to the speech API
08:17:32 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: it’s like you have a semantic block that isn’t displayed
08:18:29 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: what we’ve done is two attributes, one for ?? and one with a phonetic string.
08:18:45 <MichielBijl> mck: isn’t that supported in CSS speech model?
08:18:50 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: some, but not all
08:19:02 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: everything we need is in SSML, but not in CSS speech model
08:19:14 <MichielBijl> joanie: if it worked would your problem be solved?
08:19:26 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: in that case I would like people to support CSS speech
08:20:00 <MichielBijl> jasonjgw1: even though you can insert generated content, you can’t do ??
08:20:23 <MichielBijl> mck: or we need a way to include SSML in the HTML
08:20:35 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: you want a block of content?
08:20:49 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we’ve been able to do all we need with SSML via this attribute model
08:21:08 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: so for one element you have a pair?
08:21:12 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: yes
08:21:19 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: suppose that’s doable
08:21:43 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: yes, we can do it this way, but how do we get it to both speech API, help text, etc.
08:21:57 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: you would want to map it into the platform
08:22:03 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: we can hook up with help text
08:22:12 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we’ve spoken to them
08:22:18 <MichielBijl> s/help text/text help/
08:22:28 <jessebeach> q+ jessebeach
08:22:37 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: I know Glen Gorden wants to do more for the education sector
08:22:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
08:23:30 <MichielBijl> joanie: what is going through my head, and not been discouraged, if there is a use cage for this, and you can get this in CSS
08:23:42 <JF> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:23:53 <MichielBijl> joanie: and every other AT has to support it as well
08:24:17 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we want the AT pick this up, we don’t want other voices
08:24:30 <MichielBijl> janina: they want AT to actually use the SSML
08:25:04 <MichielBijl> jessebeach: have you considered the ruby element?
08:25:16 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: ?? visual component
08:25:34 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: I don’t think it’s an option at all
08:25:53 <jamesn> q+ joanie
08:26:12 <MichielBijl> ack jessebeach
08:27:30 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: the web speech API is supposed to accept and consume SSML
08:28:25 <MichielBijl> mhakkinen: we’ve gone through multiple models, most people prefer the attribute model
08:28:51 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: do you have a proposal we can look at?
08:29:38 <MichielBijl> joanie: we have three things to remember, one, if I support this, how do you know it’s not going to interrupt speech?
08:29:55 <MichielBijl> joanie: we have to send it as separate info to the synthesiser.
08:30:52 <MichielBijl> joanie: you said we need this now, with thousands of kids out there
08:31:36 <MichielBijl> janina: different words might need different pronunciation in different context.
08:31:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
08:32:01 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: we’ll pick this up later
08:32:16 <MichielBijl> joanie: if you could e-mail them to me (about mhakkinen slides)
08:32:31 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: Sharon you’re here for EO
08:33:10 <MichielBijl> Topic: Education Outreach and the APG.
08:34:29 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:34:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
08:34:49 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes public
08:34:49 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', MichielBijl.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:35:28 <MichielBijl> mck: little background on how this got started
08:35:44 <MichielBijl> mck: people expressing concerns with difficulty on how to use ARIA correctly
08:36:03 <MichielBijl> mck: lot of different ways on how to reach the developer community
08:36:13 <Sharron> Sharron has joined #aria
08:36:21 <MichielBijl> mck: we need to make sure that it (APG) complements what is out there
08:36:26 <MichielBijl> mck: Three things
08:36:26 <Sharron> present +Sharron
08:36:48 <MichielBijl> mck: 1. what would the goals be of the collaboration
08:37:01 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
08:37:13 <MichielBijl> mck: 2. Identifying some of the resources that already exist and updates to those resources
08:37:24 <MichielBijl> mck: have done a bit of that, so have some stuff for us to consider
08:37:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
08:37:35 <joanie> q-
08:37:36 <MichielBijl> mck: 3. how do we want to collaborate
08:37:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
08:37:54 <MichielBijl> mkc: maybe some of that will become clear if we talk about the goals
08:37:59 <yatil> yatil has joined #aria
08:38:05 <MichielBijl> mck: I have three proposals for goals
08:38:17 <MichielBijl> mck: would like some feedback to see if these are appropriate
08:38:29 <MichielBijl> mck: first is creating awareness of the APG
08:38:51 <MichielBijl> mck: maybe using existing channels available to the W3C
08:39:12 <MichielBijl> mck: second, W3C resources should be consistent with APG and vice versa
08:39:23 <MichielBijl> mck: third, plan for the APG should be complete
08:39:34 <MichielBijl> mck: milestones are about 80% complete now
08:39:53 <MichielBijl> mck: having an outside set of eyes looking at the milestone plan would be good
08:40:18 <MichielBijl> mck: does this sound good to everyone?
08:40:31 <MichielBijl> Sharron: all of this sounds consistent with what we do and how we opperate
08:40:47 <MichielBijl> Sharron: nothing comes to mind immediately on how to improve this list
08:40:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
08:41:07 <MichielBijl> Sharron: are you thinking mostly throughout the W3C or the industry?
08:41:13 <MichielBijl> mck: more the industry
08:41:29 <MichielBijl> mck: there is all these resources, planning web accessibility etc
08:41:43 <MichielBijl> Sharron: one of the things we found, our own goal, was to promote WAI resources
08:42:00 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we’ve realised that we need to promote it to the outside world
08:42:22 <MichielBijl> Sharron: but have also seen a lot of WGs within W3C also aren’t aware of WAI or APG
08:42:37 <MichielBijl> mck: everyone on internal is also external
08:42:44 <MichielBijl> Sharron: *laughs* yes
08:43:16 <MichielBijl> mck: I would like to take some time to look at a couple of examples
08:43:33 <MichielBijl> mck: see EO at the footer of a lot of documents
08:43:44 <MichielBijl> Sharron:maybe I should tell you more about the process
08:43:50 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we go through the document
08:44:04 <MichielBijl> Sharron: and then it sits there for a while till somebody has time
08:44:16 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we have a schedule for all documents within WAI
08:44:23 <MichielBijl> Sharron: are all assigned to someone
08:44:34 <MichielBijl> Sharron: atleast reviewed anually
08:44:47 <MichielBijl> s/atleast/at least/
08:45:05 <MichielBijl> s/anually/anual/
08:45:22 <MichielBijl> Sharron: there are 80 resources, so takes a while to get it all of the ground
08:45:37 <MichielBijl> Sharron: seems we’re getting ready to publish some of these revisions
08:45:41 <MichielBijl> mck: it’s a good thing
08:46:16 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we still have a little bit of coördination with staff
08:46:24 <MichielBijl> …publication is only done by staff
08:46:33 <MichielBijl> yatil: we can publish stuff pretty quickly
08:46:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:46:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
08:46:57 <mck> https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria.php
08:47:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
08:47:07 <MichielBijl> mck: one resource linked to in a lot of specs
08:48:18 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we have so much documents in the EO docs that is outdated or wrong
08:48:37 <MichielBijl> …we’re also in the process of re-designing the WAI pages
08:48:49 <MichielBijl> yatil: we might even use ARIA
08:48:52 <MichielBijl> ack richardschwerdtfeger
08:49:05 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: so Sharron, your team is also doing ??
08:49:45 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: I don’t want a repeat of ARIA 1.0
08:49:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
08:50:03 <MichielBijl> Sharron: have recruited three new participants
08:50:25 <MichielBijl> would be nice to have people from member organisations to participate
08:50:52 <alastairc> q+
08:51:07 <MichielBijl> yatil: WAI is wheelhouse of knowledge and doing stuff
08:51:17 <MichielBijl> ARIA is techniques, but not just that, it’s a guide
08:51:31 <MichielBijl> bring over stuff from APG to WAI(?)
08:51:50 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we have ARIA throughout most of the stuff we have
08:52:00 <MichielBijl> yatil: basically want to make tutorials for ARIA
08:52:29 <MichielBijl> people that know what ARIA is, but don’t want to do a deep dive, could use a tutorial
08:52:44 <jamesn> q+
08:52:46 <MichielBijl> mck: new APG uses this approach
08:52:56 <MichielBijl> not written in tutorial way
08:53:02 <MichielBijl> q?
08:53:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
08:53:23 <MichielBijl> are code examples
08:53:40 <MichielBijl> for example to make sure that AT functions with it
08:53:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
08:54:21 <MichielBijl> where ever possible reference instead of recreate
08:54:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
08:54:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack alastairc
08:54:41 <MichielBijl> alastairc: I work with large resources, we have a calendar of content
08:54:49 <MichielBijl> to give you an overview of what’s coming up
08:55:13 <mck> q?
08:55:18 <alastairc> Example: http://maadmob.com.au/resources/content_inventory
08:55:18 <MichielBijl> q+
08:55:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jamesn
08:56:02 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I see that EO can contribute a lot to ARIA
08:56:18 <MichielBijl> but we don’t want EO documents should focus too much on ARIA
08:57:14 <MichielBijl> WAI resources are too easy to understand
08:57:22 <MichielBijl> All: *laughter*
08:57:52 <MichielBijl> yatil: if we can make a clear line, this is the simple approach, can say look at APG for complicated example
08:58:19 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: to what degree are you incorporating videos in your education?
08:58:35 <MichielBijl> Sharron: I can say that we produced a short series of videos
08:58:47 <MichielBijl> we haven’t used videos at all in other resources
08:58:56 <MichielBijl> mostly resource/budget issue
08:59:13 <MichielBijl> but if it’s helpful, we might have to put it into consideration
08:59:39 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aria
09:00:10 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: if you can look into it that would be great
09:00:10 <MichielBijl> thought of doing one for the quick reference
09:00:10 <MichielBijl> yatil: do we do a screencast, or a lecture
09:00:16 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
09:00:24 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
09:00:47 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: screencast would be better, lectures take too much time
09:00:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html MichaelC_
09:01:05 <MichielBijl> yatil: also need to think about audio description, might be cimplicated
09:01:34 <MichielBijl> mck: what might be useful, we have these APG example pages, but for somebody that is relatively new to accessibility and screen readers.
09:01:55 <MichielBijl> a 2-3 minute video of somebody using that example with a screen reader
09:02:03 <MichielBijl> to show what the expected behaviour is
09:02:11 <MichielBijl> might be something that is easy to produce
09:02:17 <MichaelC_> present+ MichaelC
09:02:21 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: sounds pretty good
09:02:29 <MichaelC_> meeting: ARIA FtF Day 1
09:02:41 <MichielBijl> Sharron: have to remember that a 5 minute video often takes days to produce
09:02:43 <MichaelC_> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
09:02:52 <MichaelC_> chair: Rich
09:03:05 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: ARIA has been doing a couple of models
09:03:20 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: doing a best practices on SVG
09:03:29 <MichielBijl> Sharron: think that’s a good place
09:03:39 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
09:03:44 <MichielBijl> mck: might want a separate SVG best practices
09:04:19 <MichaelC_> q+
09:04:23 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: how would that work with the new CSS best practices
09:04:44 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about relatioship between APG and other types of best practices
09:04:54 <MichaelC> q- MichaelC_
09:05:02 <MichielBijl> mck: difference is, apg is on how to use ARIA in another language
09:05:15 <MichielBijl> so there is a difference to the CSS thing, that is just CSS language
09:05:21 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: yeah that makes sense
09:05:26 <MichielBijl> ack MichielBijl
09:05:30 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #aria
09:06:06 <MichielBijl> MichaelC: are we talking about moving content from APG somewhere else, or other content into APG?
09:06:13 <MichaelC> ack me
09:06:13 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about relatioship between APG and other types of best practices
09:06:46 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: there is other things going on like dpub using ARIA, so maybe something on how to use ARIA to create accessible books
09:07:27 <MichielBijl> mck: back to the WAI-ARIA overview, it doesn’t have a github repo assigned to it
09:07:42 <MichielBijl> Sharron: yatil can setup a repo
09:07:59 <MichielBijl> yatil: will also remove ARIA primer from the nav
09:08:05 <MichielBijl> All: *cheers*
09:08:45 <MichielBijl> Sharron: can put in wiki that these are view of APG or EO.
09:08:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
09:08:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack me
09:09:02 <MichielBijl> mck: before we go there, I want to make sure that you know what our plan is
09:09:09 <mck> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestones
09:10:23 <MichielBijl> mck: so have four milestones
09:10:36 <MichielBijl> next public wd is in fourth quarter
09:11:08 <MichielBijl> then we have PR, will miss some more complex examples
09:11:31 <MichielBijl> we will have a second release with those missing examples and fixes
09:11:51 <MichielBijl> We have a 2.0 milestone where we assign things as they come up
09:12:07 <MichielBijl> As we are working on collaborating with other documents
09:12:20 <MichielBijl> Rasing issues is the best way to bring it to our attention
09:12:42 <MichielBijl> yatil: what would we do if we wrote a tutorial
09:13:01 <MichielBijl> mck: best thing would be to mention James, Michiel, and me in the issue
09:13:07 <MichaelC> q+
09:13:19 <MichielBijl> Or send me an e-mail and ask if we can add it to the agenda
09:14:14 <MichielBijl> jamesn: any reason you don’t want wider ARIA review?
09:14:20 <MichielBijl> yatil: review outside of APG is fine
09:14:35 <MichielBijl> jamesn: not sure it’s an APG job
09:14:38 <MichaelC> ack me
09:14:42 <MichaelC> -> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/teams/aria-contributors ARIA contributors
09:14:51 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
09:14:53 <MichielBijl> mck: would be awesome if we could assign issues to you guys
09:15:18 <MichielBijl> mck: if we have feedback on your documents
09:15:32 <MichielBijl> would you need us to open GH issues?
09:15:35 <MichielBijl> Sharron: yes
09:16:14 <MichielBijl> yatil: every resource that is under EO, should have a repo, if not, contact me
09:16:38 <MichielBijl> Sharron: we have 80 resources, some of those are multi page
09:17:10 <MichielBijl> mck: you don’t have them lumped together right?
09:17:33 <MichielBijl> yatil: some, like tutorials, because they’re considered one resource, but other are all separate
09:18:25 <MichielBijl> mck: what is the timeline for the redesign?
09:18:35 <MichielBijl> Sharron: hope to have the first things done by March
09:18:45 <MichielBijl> like smart search and some visual changes
09:19:00 <MichielBijl> mck: how do we see the progress in the meantime
09:19:14 <MichielBijl> yatil: we have a closed basecamp, but there is stuff on the mailinglist
09:19:33 <MichielBijl> best way is to follow the mailinglist at the moment
09:20:53 <MichielBijl> richardschwerdtfeger: almost time for break, we will look at mhakkinen’s examples later today
09:21:03 <MichielBijl> <br>
09:21:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:21:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
09:21:53 <MichielBijl> present+ LJWatson
09:23:58 <jasonjgw_> jasonjgw_ has joined #aria
09:26:31 <yatil> present+ EricE
09:26:42 <yatil> present+ Sharron_Rush_(part)
09:26:47 <yatil> present- EricE
09:26:52 <yatil> present+ EricE_(part)
09:27:29 <mck> mck has joined #aria
09:41:12 <sam> sam has joined #aria
09:52:00 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
09:58:23 <aboxhall> aboxhall has joined #aria
10:03:46 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
10:04:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
10:04:25 <jasonjgw_> scribe: jasonjgw
10:04:37 <jasonjgw_> topic: Accessibility Object Model
10:04:39 <jcraig> TOPIC: Accessibility Object Model
10:04:54 <mck> mck has joined #aria
10:04:58 <jcraig> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/contributing-the-accessibility-object-model-specification/1702
10:05:17 <jcraig> https://github.com/a11y-api/a11y-api/blob/master/explainer.md
10:07:47 <Sharron> Sharron has joined #aria
10:08:05 <jasonjgw_> James: he and Alice Boxhall are here to present work on the AOM.
10:08:45 <jasonjgw_> James acknowledges contributors and reviewers who have influenced this work.
10:09:02 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
10:10:41 <jasonjgw_> James notes the problem of intention events, which also relates to the work of the former IndieUI Working Group.
10:10:57 <aboxhall> chrome.automation: https://developer.chrome.com/extensions/automation
10:11:04 <jasonjgw_> He further notes work on the shadow DOM.
10:11:34 <MichielBijl> present+ aboxhall
10:11:44 <MichielBijl> present+ jcraig
10:11:57 <aboxhall> Mozilla a11yapi: https://github.com/WICG/a11yapi
10:12:05 <aboxhall> WAPA: https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
10:12:21 <jasonjgw_> He further notes the accessibility API proposals for the Web that have emerged recently, all of which are attempts to solve the same problems.
10:12:44 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aria
10:12:55 <LJWatson_> LJWatson_ has joined #aria
10:13:03 <jasonjgw_> The current effort was discussed at a face to face meeting in May and has been developed since hten.
10:13:22 <MichaelC_> s/scribe: jasonjgw/scribe: jasonjgw_/
10:13:35 <jasonjgw_> He notes the challenge raised by in-document idrefs - problematic in the presence of shadow DOM.
10:14:16 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
10:14:58 <jasonjgw_> Rich text editors are infeasible to implement/represent in ARIA. Retrofits for these applications to support ARIA are complex and inconvenient.
10:15:28 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
10:16:13 <jasonjgw_> The initial focus is on solving the problems that are already addressed on the various platforms but not on the Web yet.
10:17:04 <jasonjgw_> There is an expectation that all features must receive browser feedback form at least two different browser implementation developers.
10:17:41 <jasonjgw_> Privacy: user details will not be exposed to applications from this API.
10:18:55 <jasonjgw_> Responding to a questoin from John, he clarifies that this assumption avoids the privacy issues raised by IndieUI work.
10:20:22 <jasonjgw_> The code (that implements the API in applications) must be easy to author.
10:21:25 <jasonjgw_> The intended audience is expected to be framework developers, accessibility engineers, JavaScript accessibility consultants, etc.
10:22:39 <Song_jaeil> Song_jaeil has joined #ARIA
10:22:44 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #aria
10:23:24 <jasonjgw_> Alice: outlines the process by which interactive controls (e.g., buttons) are represented in the DOM, reflected in the accessibility tree maintained by the browser, then communicated to assistive technologies via platform-level APIs.
10:24:37 <jasonjgw_> AT can also activate a button via the accessibility API, resulting in a click event generated by the user agent.
10:26:04 <jasonjgw_> In contrast, a request to change the value of a slider cannot be implemented beyond the point at which it reaches the UA.
10:28:24 <jasonjgw_> The first objective to be implemented is that of modifying accessible properties. Next stage: responding to accessibility-related events. Virtual accessibility nodes with no corresponding DOM nodes. Introspecting computed accessibility tree (phase 4).
10:29:46 <jasonjgw_> Phases 1-3: analogous to a style attribute, where the attribute's value reflects the author-specified value, not the computed value applied to the document. Similarly, the API will initially reflect specified values.
10:30:09 <LJWatson_> LJWatson_ has joined #aria
10:30:36 <jasonjgw_> Alice notes how the API can implement object references to other nodes in the accessibility tree.
10:32:18 <jasonjgw_> Alice notes the significance of the shadow DOM for containing rendering details of elements. Example: a custom combo box (i.e., custom element), where the custom element has an associated shadow root and the elements comprising the custom combo box are in the shadow tree.
10:33:33 <jasonjgw_> The options in the custom combo box element are not shadow nodes - they're in the DOM of the containing document, not in shadow DOM. this raises the problem that it is impossible to refer to elements outside the shadow tree using idrefs on shadow tree elements.
10:34:23 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #aria
10:36:17 <jcraig> Pasting in Slide content:
10:36:19 <jasonjgw_> Alice provides an example of how the API (which solves the above problem and others described above) works to change the roles of widgets (e.g., from button to link).
10:36:19 <jcraig> Agenda
10:36:20 <jcraig> • History: previous proposals and vendor discussions
10:36:21 <jcraig> • Common problems for noticed by browser vendors
10:36:23 <jcraig> • Considerations for scoping
10:36:24 <jcraig> • Audience for this technology
10:36:26 <jcraig> • Example interactions
10:36:27 <jcraig> • Tightly-scoped, phased development plan
10:36:28 <jcraig> • Code samples and demo
10:36:29 <jcraig> • Q &A
10:36:40 <jcraig> Common Problems
10:36:40 <jcraig> • DOM manipulation requirement of ARIA can perform poorly with large datasets
10:36:42 <jcraig> • Reliance on in-document IDREF prevents some usage (e.g. Shadow DOM)
10:36:43 <jcraig> • No way to receive accessibility events (e.g. increment a custom slider)
10:36:44 <jcraig> • Some complex office suites (Google Docs, iWork for iCloud, etc) are challenging to make accessible through standard techniques: POSH+ARIA doesn't cut it.
10:36:45 <jcraig> • Bonus: Accessibility Inspection and Testing
10:37:14 <jcraig> Considerations for Scoping
10:37:15 <jcraig> • Release cycle must be phased, and each phase must be achievable
10:37:17 <jcraig> • Features must be implementable and have positive interest from 2 browsers
10:37:18 <jcraig> • Implementations must not expose user details (privacy)
10:37:19 <jcraig> • Implementations must not negatively affect performance
10:37:20 <jcraig> • Code must be easy to author *
10:37:21 <jcraig> * Easy [for the intended audience] to author. See next slide.
10:37:25 <jcraig> Audience for AOM
10:37:25 <jcraig> • Primarily experts, such as:
10:37:27 <jcraig> • Frameworks engineers
10:37:28 <jcraig> • Web components authors
10:37:29 <jcraig> • Document suite developers: Google Docs, iWork for iCloud, etc. • JavaScript-fluent accessibility consultants
10:37:31 <jcraig> • Accessibility test tool engineers
10:37:31 <jcraig> • AOM may add convenience for the average web developer, but it’s not required.
10:37:38 <jcraig> Tightly-Scoped Development
10:37:39 <jcraig> 1. Modifying accessible properties
10:37:40 <jcraig> will allow setting accessible properties for a DOM-backed node
10:37:42 <jcraig> 2. Accessible actions/events
10:37:43 <jcraig> will allow reacting to user actions from assistive technology
10:37:45 <jcraig> 3. Virtual accessibility nodes (WebGL, etc.)
10:37:46 <jcraig> will allow the creation of virtual accessibility nodes not associated with DOM
10:37:47 <jcraig> 4. Introspection of the fully computed accessibility tree
10:37:48 <jcraig> will allow reading the computed accessible properties for accessibility nodes
10:37:50 <jcraig> Code Examples
10:37:50 <jcraig> / Standard assignment of ARIA relationship by IDREF  el.setAttribute("aria-describedby", "id_ref");
10:37:51 <jcraig> / New. Assigning ARIA relationship by object reference  el.accessibleNode.describedBy = [objectRef];
10:37:52 <jcraig> * All syntax is subject to change
10:37:58 <jcraig> Code Example: Shadow DOM
10:37:58 <jcraig> <custom-combobox>
10:38:00 <jcraig> #shadow-root
10:38:01 <jcraig> | <!-- this doesn't work! -->
10:38:03 <jcraig> | <input aria-activedescendant="opt1"></input>  | <slot></slot>
10:38:04 <jcraig> <custom-optionlist>
10:38:05 <jcraig> <x-option id="opt1">Option 1</x-option>  <x-option id="opt2">Option 2</x-option>  <x-option id='opt3'>Option 3</x-option>
10:38:06 <jcraig> </custom-optionlist>  </custom-combobox>
10:38:13 <jcraig> Code Example: Shadow DOM
10:38:13 <jcraig> / Assignment across shadow root boundary in web component  const input = comboBox.shadowRoot.querySelector("input");
10:38:15 <jcraig> const optionList = comboBox.querySelector("custom-optionlist");  input.accessibleNode.activeDescendant = optionList;
10:38:15 <jcraig> * All syntax is subject to change
10:38:32 <jcraig> TOPIC: Demo
10:39:25 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
10:40:20 <jasonjgw_> In the demo, the script overrides the role (changing it from button to link) in the accessibility tree, but the DOM remains unchanged - containing an HTML button element.
10:41:03 <jasonjgw_> James clarifies that the computed role is not yet available through the API.
10:42:44 <jasonjgw_> James's example: switch is a new role; the author should write role="switch checkbox"; which role was applied (switch in newer browsers and checkbox in those which odn't support the new role) cannot be ascertained today via any API.
10:42:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
10:42:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
10:43:03 <IanPouncey> q+
10:43:52 <jasonjgw_> Responding to Matt, James clarifies that values which the script author has written to the accessibility tree via the API can be queried, but not computed roles/values. API inspection tools can nevertheless be used.
10:45:29 <jasonjgw_> Responding to Rich, James clarifies that in phase 4, the computed role (the in-browser role in the accessibility tree) is what will be reflected in the API.
10:45:48 <jasonjgw_> This is intended not to vary by platform.
10:46:56 <jasonjgw_> Alice clarifies that the values which have been set (in ARIA or the API) can be read, but now the value computed by the browser - until phase 4.
10:50:21 <jasonjgw_> The values set via the API take precedence over those declared in ARIA attributes.
10:51:34 <IanPouncey> q-
10:51:49 <jasonjgw_> James and Alice develop the analogy with setting the style of an element (using attributes and using the API).
10:51:55 <IanPouncey> ack rich
10:53:08 <jasonjgw_> Alice clarifies that, via the API, a query would show a role of button on both <div role="button"> and HTML button elements.
10:54:49 <jasonjgw_> Prior to phase 4 of the project, it isn't clear what values would be returned for properties that haven't been set using the API.
10:55:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
10:56:07 <jasonjgw_> Alice presents a demonstration of a canvas-based slider.
10:58:47 <jasonjgw_> The script adds an event listener to the accessiblity tree that sets the value of the slider, including the value of aria-valuenow.
10:59:10 <jasonjgw_> It is demonstrated using VoiceOver that the screen reader can change the value of the slider using this method.
11:00:06 <jasonjgw_> No keyboard events are involved.
11:01:31 <jasonjgw_> Matt notes that the keyboard events would still need to be implemented for users who don't run AT, but this feature would enable screen reader commands/touch gestures to be used to change the values/state of elements.
11:02:04 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
11:03:35 <jasonjgw_> Alice clarifies that the proposal (in its early phases) is meant to solve problems that do not have existing solutions; this API complements ARIA.
11:04:28 <jasonjgw_> The scope of each phase is narrowly defined with a view to progressive implementation that can be made available to developers quickly.
11:04:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
11:04:59 <jasonjgw_> Alice notes the GitHub repository to which issues can be submitted.
11:05:39 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/a11y-api/a11y-api
11:05:45 <jcraig> https://github.com/a11y-api/a11y-api/blob/master/explainer.md
11:06:14 <jasonjgw_> James clarifies (answering a question from Rich) that the API spec refers to ARIA for the roles and other property values.
11:06:26 <jcraig> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/contributing-the-accessibility-object-model-specification/1702
11:07:01 <jasonjgw_> Alice notes that the Explainer is the first document to refer to in order to understand the API.
11:09:56 <jasonjgw_> James notes the issues that need to be solved in the spec to address virtual accessibility nodes (those which are not in the DOM tree), event handling (requests from AT), etc.
11:10:39 <jasonjgw_> He also acknowledges the necessity of better debugging tools.
11:12:18 <jasonjgw_> He also notes implementation issues that necessitate division of the work into multiple phases as proposed.
11:13:15 <JF> JF has joined #aria
11:14:28 <jasonjgw_> James notes ongoing discussions with Microsoft regarding their position with respect to this work.
11:16:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:16:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
11:18:09 <jasonjgw_> James acknowledges the contributors who have commented on the work so far.
11:24:42 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
11:53:35 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #aria
11:57:29 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
12:05:14 <sam> sam has joined #aria
12:16:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
12:20:08 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
12:25:02 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
12:30:58 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
12:35:44 <mck> mck has joined #aria
12:41:01 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #aria
12:42:00 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
12:42:17 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
12:42:35 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #aria
12:42:42 <david-macdonald> test
12:42:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:42:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
12:43:00 <yatil> s/test/
12:43:10 <yatil> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:43:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html yatil
12:43:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> scrbe: David-MacDonald
12:43:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: David-MacDonald
12:44:17 <David-Macdonald2> David-Macdonald2 has joined #aria
12:44:23 <Mike_Pluke_> Mike_Pluke_ has joined #aria
12:44:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: David-MacDonald2
12:44:40 <MichaelC> scribe: david-macdonald
12:45:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Interlock
12:46:08 <david-macdonald_> david-macdonald_ has joined #aria
12:46:25 <david-macdonald_> test
12:46:26 <alastairc> present+
12:46:33 <ddahl> ddahl has joined #aria
12:46:34 <IanPouncey> present+
12:46:35 <kirkwood> present+
12:46:51 <Mike_Pluke_> present+ Mike_Pluke
12:46:54 <mck> present+ matt_king
12:46:57 <ddahl> present+ Debbie_Dahl
12:47:50 <David-Macdonald2> Test
12:48:52 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #aria
12:49:02 <mhakkinen> present+
12:49:35 <David-Macdonald2> Scribe: David-Macdonald2
12:50:06 <David-Macdonald2> Lisa: much research was behind pay walls but we have summarized it
12:50:26 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #aria
12:50:36 <David-Macdonald2> Lisa: want user to be able to do things safely
12:51:45 <David-Macdonald2> Look at the table if you want to throw anything out
12:52:58 <Lisa_Seeman> Lisa_Seeman has joined #aria
12:53:02 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html
12:53:23 <David-Macdonald2> The tables come from the user research
12:53:36 <Lisa_Seeman> https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/
12:53:40 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
12:55:01 <David-Macdonald2> PERSONALIZATION and user settings is another peice... aria-apart should figure out where they think that belongs
12:56:24 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
12:56:32 <David-Macdonald2>  There is a third peice
12:56:48 <David-Macdonald2> Rich: has the group decided on a prefix
12:57:28 <David-Macdonald2> LS: I don't care, could be aria could be Cogan,  could be anything
12:57:43 <David-Macdonald2> RS: does it need to be mapped to the a11y api
12:57:51 <David-Macdonald2> LS: no
12:58:24 <David-Macdonald2> S/Cogan/COGA
13:00:03 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aria
13:00:28 <Lisa_Seeman> https://github.com/ayelet-seeman/coga.personalisation/tree/JSON-Script
13:01:44 <david-macdonald_> test
13:01:51 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
13:02:19 <david-macdonald_> scribe: david-macdonald__
13:02:47 <david-macdonald_> Jason: what about users who rely on  a11y API,
13:03:21 <jessebeach> jessebeach has joined #aria
13:03:28 <david-macdonald_> LS: many of our users don't know about a11y API
13:04:16 <jessebeach> present+ jessebeach
13:04:21 <mck__> mck__ has joined #aria
13:04:30 <David-MacDonald3> David-MacDonald3 has joined #aria
13:04:59 <David-MacDonald3> scribe: David-MacDonald3
13:06:25 <David-MacDonald3> Test
13:07:04 <David-MacDonald3> IBM might get involved with personization j.singleton@hisoftware.com JSON
13:08:06 <David-MacDonald3> S/j.singleton@hisoftware.com
13:08:57 <David-MacDonald3> S/j.singleton@hisoftware.com/
13:09:33 <David-MacDonald3> RS: what if a blind person wants to do that.
13:10:41 <David-MacDonald3> LS: a script runs on load, a buttons can simplify, change things to simplify, such as a home picture instead of home button
13:11:17 <David-MacDonald3> RS: we may want to use the aria prefix for anything that affects the dom
13:12:16 <David-MacDonald3> Ls: I just want the support,  but I don't care about the prefix
13:13:17 <clapierre> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/
13:13:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
13:13:36 <David-MacDonald3> Examples of attributes could be things such as... key points, example,  note, warning, step, external, offers, advertisement
13:13:45 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
13:14:17 <David-MacDonald3> Rs: we have a a lot of these in dpub
13:14:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://idpf.github.io/epub-vocabs/structure/
13:14:54 <mck> mck has joined #aria
13:15:34 <David-MacDonald3> Example shown... of how to simplify a form
13:16:59 <David-MacDonald3> HTML is same but dom has changed
13:18:26 <David-MacDonald3> Makes it easier to meet WCAG begpcause we a trying to introduce new Success Criteria
13:19:05 <clapierre> s/begpcause/because/
13:19:07 <David-MacDonald3> S/begpcause/because
13:19:16 <jessebeach> q+
13:20:40 <David-MacDonald3> Establishing the priority of what is critical, and how can we show that it actually easier for users
13:21:13 <David-MacDonald3> the last sentence is Jason
13:22:38 <David-MacDonald3> LS: we haven't done research but we have know facts that complicated information is harder to learn, so simplification is useful. If you can load the symbol that the person is familiar with there is a better chance of success
13:23:16 <alastairc> q+
13:23:23 <David-MacDonald3> Thee are intelligent people with discalculia is 6% of population
13:23:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:23:38 <David-MacDonald3> Numbers don't make a lot of sense to them.
13:24:11 <IanPouncey> q+
13:24:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jessebeach
13:24:27 <David-MacDonald3> The research is obvious. If you speak to anot English speaker in Spanish they will not understand as well as they would in English
13:24:34 <Mike_Pluke_> q+
13:25:15 <David-MacDonald3> JESSE: so should we at Facebook out a home icon on our Web page
13:25:50 <David-MacDonald3> LS: no, it is the user recognised symbol.
13:26:26 <David-MacDonald3> JESSE: no commercial we site would allow external downloads
13:26:49 <David-MacDonald3> LS it's on the user machine...
13:27:09 <David-MacDonald3> LS: we would want to have about 5 libraries for user groups
13:27:29 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
13:28:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:28:43 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
13:28:56 <Mike_Pluke_> Can't hear!
13:29:47 <David-MacDonald3> alastair: I've tested quite a few users with cognitive disabilities... do we also need implementors on board.
13:30:31 <David-MacDonald3> Lisa: it would be a browser extension
13:30:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:31:10 <David-MacDonald3> We don't expect development people  to understand cognitive disabilities
13:31:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack alastairc
13:32:01 <David-MacDonald3> Craig: os have a primary button, main button, a subclass of button
13:32:34 <David-MacDonald3> S/Craig/ James Craig
13:35:20 <MichielBijl> MB: here is James Nurthen’s original proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0036.html
13:35:48 <MichielBijl> (for primary button exposure via ARIA/a11y APIs)
13:36:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:37:21 <alastairc> scribe: alastairc
13:38:14 <alastairc> Ian: Have some concerns around adoption, persuading people to include this. Have seen attempts at personalisation before, not wanting to loose control of the site.
13:39:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:39:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack IanPouncey
13:39:21 <alastairc> Lisa: Trying to risk - manage that with 5 example user-files. The other driver is WCAG 2.1, so having a success criteria about showing alternative success criteria, the personalisation aspect could be easier.
13:39:30 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
13:39:55 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:39:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html clapierre
13:40:25 <alastairc> Ian: It could be very fragile though, e.g.  removing widths on a nav item, but there are so many ways that it could have been positioned, it could break in many ways.
13:40:51 <jcraig> q+
13:41:24 <alastairc> Ian: Some aspects look quite straightforward, could be implemented very easily. I'd like to see a demo on something like Amazon's homepage, Facebook to work out some of these issues. It isn't unworkable, but will take a lot of testing.
13:42:16 <alastairc> Lisa: There is the semantics that the author puts in, but then the question is whether the user-side script is robust.
13:43:17 <alastairc> Richard: This is a good example of how it might work, but think that it needs to be upto the designers.
13:43:32 <alastairc> Ian: It is also a design thing, not just developers.
13:44:03 <alastairc> Lisa: It could be a matter of using 80% of the functionality on a particular site, could comment out the changes that don't work.
13:44:27 <alastairc> Ian: If all of these attributes are specified in the site, it comes under the control of the site.
13:44:45 <alastairc> Lisa: Have to have the semantics, as the user needs to be in control of which icons are used.
13:45:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:46:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:46:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Mike_Pluke
13:46:59 <alastairc> Mike: Looking back 25 minutes, there's no way we can measure the precise effectiveness of these, but there is very solid evidence for use-cases. The execution could vary, but there are definitely benefits. That does need testing to quantify.
13:47:05 <jcraig> ack me
13:47:18 <wseltzer> wseltzer has joined #aria
13:47:25 <alastairc> JC: Ian pointed out it would be trivial for authors to do if there were a media feature for it.
13:48:10 <alastairc> JC: APA asked for a similar feature for dpub, there's a possibility for custom media features, over a month ago. That's a concrete path for this.
13:48:14 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #aria
13:48:37 <alastairc> JC: Custom media queries would allow for getting to a prototype, might not be the solution, but you could show it.
13:49:40 <alastairc> JC: Goal of socialising the extension is that you can prove it is worthy. There are some very specific features that aren't in any major browser, but custom media features would be the best path.
13:49:45 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
13:50:08 <alastairc> Richard: Web pages are very complex, just annotating it might not work. But, would also need a way to validate it would work correctly.
13:50:37 <alastairc> Mat: If people have a cognitive disability can they define their own preferences?
13:51:00 <alastairc> JC: Within the switch control community, there is usually someone to help set it up, then the user can further customise it.
13:51:34 <alastairc> mhakkinen: In the education context, we would hope the student can set it up before testing time!
13:52:27 <alastairc> Lisa: A lot of cog issues are localise, and sometimes are compensated. We were also anticipated starting with templates, perhaps with 3/4 questions that would guide to you a starting template.
13:53:27 <jcraig> s/There are some very specific features that aren't in any major browser, but custom media features would be the best path./You are requesting some very specific features that aren't suppported by major platform. Some of you have considered me dismissive of this idea in the past, but I'm not opposed to it conceptually. I was dismissive of previous proposals because there was no clear path forward. CSS custom media features might be that clear path forward to [CUT]
13:53:27 <alastairc> Lisa: Another thought we're having, once the preferences have been established, anyone else using these semantics could access those preference file (security issues allowing).
13:53:28 <jcraig> where you want to go./
13:54:01 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
13:54:29 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:54:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html clapierre
13:56:07 <clapierre> This could also be expanded beyond cognitive to color blindness and low vision disabilities and beyond.
13:56:19 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:56:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html clapierre
14:01:35 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #aria
14:02:07 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
14:03:04 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
14:09:46 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
14:12:03 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
14:14:59 <Lisa_Seeman> Lisa_Seeman has joined #aria
14:31:37 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
14:45:57 <sam> sam has joined #aria
14:49:50 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
14:50:12 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
14:53:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
14:57:07 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
14:58:14 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
14:58:21 <jcraig> TOPIC: Automated Testing
14:58:32 <jcraig> Present+ John_Jansen
14:58:44 <jcraig> Present+ Boaz_Sender
14:59:07 <JohnJansen> present+ JohnJansen
14:59:12 <jcraig> Present+ James_Craig
14:59:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Shane_McCarron
14:59:18 <JohnJansen> present- John_Jansen
14:59:51 <boazsender_> boazsender_ has joined #aria
15:00:52 <ShaneM> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1-28KVLhJ6M0RDA96RQG7yn8Mxvfau3mssmQuuogIx98/edit?usp=sharing
15:01:32 <jcraig> ShaneM: automating ARIA testing... TF meeting run by JohnG at U of Illinois
15:02:21 <jcraig> we propsed architecture, then I implemented a prototype. Joanie built the real one which we'd like to demo today (If I get through the slides).
15:02:41 <jcraig> WPT: Web Platform Tests... not difficult to adopt/use
15:03:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
15:04:11 <jcraig> ShaneM: previous ARIA test efforts have been manual. exhausting, not exhaustive.
15:04:22 <jcraig> design to get us thru CR.
15:05:15 <jcraig> that's not the goal of testing... We want to reuse and run often. Continuous integration tests. ATTA == Assistive Tech Test Adaptor
15:06:13 <jcraig> tool pulls testable statements out of the wiki and automatically builds the test *cases*
15:07:00 <jcraig> now we want to build an ATTA for JS for the testing context, and then for every platform (e.g. Mac, Windows, etc.).
15:07:19 <jcraig> slide diagram describeing the test runner life cycle
15:07:28 <jcraig> s/describeing/describing/
15:07:46 <jcraig> i/o from WPT is raw JSON...
15:08:36 <jcraig> WPT scope of testing is limited to the browser (mostly... ignore WebDriver for the sake of this discussion)
15:09:33 <jcraig> but the tests need to run across browsers/platforms. So the ATTA fills the gap between the WPT (browser) to the specific API test (platform)
15:09:44 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
15:09:49 <jcraig> q+
15:10:08 <jcraig> i/o is more or less pass/fail
15:10:11 <jcraig> ack me
15:10:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:11:41 <jcraig> today we are sending pass/fail and any messages (platform-specific error message)
15:12:19 <jcraig> Boaz: Is that a native app that runs on each platform
15:12:53 <jcraig> joanie: Yes. it's like a CLI for Accessibility Inspector
15:13:09 <jcraig> JohnJansen: Yes, ours is platforms specific
15:13:41 <jcraig> Boaz: I love that the i/o from your ATTA more or less could be standardized
15:14:22 <jcraig> ShaneM: There are a lot of ways we coud extend this in the future.
15:14:47 <jcraig> skeletal one demoed here is implemented in Python. Joanie's is too.
15:15:10 <jcraig> Still defining the declaritive model for these tests
15:15:16 <jcraig> wiki link to tests:
15:15:34 <ShaneM> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements
15:15:36 <david-macdonald> david-macdonald has joined #aria
15:15:43 <jcraig> s/tests:/testable statements:/
15:16:09 <jcraig> Only implemented the refinement for ATK
15:16:41 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about the relationship between this test formalism and the mapping specs
15:16:49 <jcraig> Still much to be added...
15:18:12 <MichaelC> ack me
15:18:12 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about the relationship between this test formalism and the mapping specs
15:19:03 <jcraig> This table is describing human-added testable statements (if given this, expect that) and define the platform-specific expectations in a table
15:19:53 <MichaelC> mc: this looks like the mapping tables in the AAMs, but more precise. Is there communication with the AAPI TF about this?
15:19:56 <tai> tai has joined #aria
15:19:58 <MichaelC> shane: not yet but there should be.
15:20:10 <jcraig> richardschwerdtfeger: MSAA and UIA2 had to be separated b/c they ended up being too different to coalesce
15:21:05 <jcraig> boazsender_: If given <html block>, expect this platform output, how do you generate the test
15:21:35 <jcraig> ShaneM: I'll answer after the demo
15:21:53 <jcraig> ShaneM: Joanie's demo is a manual test runner
15:22:42 <jcraig> but the browser vendors can run this on an automated system
15:23:05 <jcraig> in this case, we've selected all WAI-ARIA tests... ("raw" tests)
15:24:02 <jcraig> ShaneM: maybe we should reorg our tests on a per-spec or per tech
15:24:15 <jcraig> s/tests/test directories/
15:25:16 <jcraig> ShaneM: in the WPT env, if you are running your own tests, you need to run a CLI server, and an ATTA on port :4119 (a11y) cuz we're nerds
15:27:47 <ShaneM> Running the tests looks like this:
15:27:58 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #aria
15:28:23 <ShaneM> 1) start up the wptserve http server
15:28:29 <ShaneM> 2) start up the ATTA for the platform under test
15:28:52 <ShaneM> 3) access the runner interface of the wpt environment and select the tests to run
15:28:55 <ShaneM> 4) click start
15:30:20 <ShaneM> 5) output shows up
15:32:30 <jcraig> ShaneM: When there are multiple assertions, because we have related assertions for each test
15:33:15 <jcraig> boazsender_: what do you have to assert
15:33:28 <wseltzer> wseltzer has left #aria
15:33:29 <jcraig> ShaneM: reads property assertions
15:34:03 <jcraig> ShaneM: one result in the logging data, because the pass criteria is different for each platform
15:34:29 <jcraig> joanie: I want to show the TBD list
15:35:28 <jcraig> there are a few builtin features I want to share
15:36:30 <jcraig> TBD tests will dump there entire output, so you can use a TBD test run to make a manual assertion and inform your testable statement
15:38:04 <jcraig> Views the output of a serialized platform-side accessibility object which you can use to make your assertions
15:38:24 <MichaelC> q+
15:38:40 <jcraig> q+ to ask how you serialize pointers to other objects?
15:38:42 <MichaelC> q+ to ask if test sanity checking can / should be done at a different layer than ATTA
15:39:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:39:39 <jcraig> q+ to ask if implementors have expressed concerns about leaking implementation version details
15:39:45 <jcraig> ack MichaelC
15:39:45 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if test sanity checking can / should be done at a different layer than ATTA
15:39:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack MichaelC
15:39:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:40:17 <jcraig> ShaneM: the make test script will sanity check the testable statement input
15:40:35 <jcraig> not doing that yet
15:41:02 <jcraig> q+ to ask about security concerns
15:41:50 <jcraig> joanie: sanity check needs a lot more ouput per test... not just failed, but why
15:42:10 <jcraig> I would want a better presentation for all this data
15:42:11 <JohnJansen> q
15:42:17 <JohnJansen> q+
15:42:47 <jcraig> Explains the ATK dump of this TBD test
15:44:37 <jcraig> ack me
15:44:37 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask how you serialize pointers to other objects? and to ask if implementors have expressed concerns about leaking implementation version details and to ask
15:44:40 <Zakim> ... about security concerns
15:45:02 <jcraig> jcraig: how you serialize pointers to other objects?
15:45:37 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
15:46:04 <jcraig> joanie: need an identifier... all platforms are now exposing DOM ID... I think we can pass DOM ID through as relation type.
15:47:14 <jcraig> jcraig: watch out for IDREF across doc bouandaries (web components)
15:47:15 <ShaneM> Possibly permit other ways of specifying the object under test other than its "element" via the id attribute.
15:47:22 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
15:47:31 <jcraig> jcraig: implementors have expressed concerns about leaking implementation version details
15:47:49 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
15:47:57 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
15:48:07 <mgylling_> mgylling_ has joined #aria
15:48:07 <jcraig> joanie: no concerns for me.. microsoft?
15:48:28 <jcraig> JohnJansen: I think it's okay.. still need to inspect more.
15:48:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> here is the new accProbe repository so that we can look at the MSAA and IA2 bridge code from Java https://developer.ibm.com/open/accessibility-probe/
15:49:32 <jcraig> jcraig: Any security concerns with running privileged ATTA running potentially
15:49:45 <tai> tai has joined #aria
15:50:53 <jcraig> ShaneM: WPT environment has a rigorously reviewed
15:50:55 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html jamesn
15:51:14 <jcraig> JohnJansen: interesting consideration that should be threat modeled
15:51:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://github.com/IBMa/AccProbe?cm_mc_uid=57481999426214672102162&cm_mc_sid_50200000=1474559258
15:51:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:51:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
15:52:48 <jcraig> q?
15:52:52 <jcraig> ack JohnJansen
15:52:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:53:05 <jcraig> JohnJansen: joanie adding CLI extensions?
15:53:36 <jcraig> joanie: it has a dry run mode... passing straight to ATTA... and debug mode with port and host
15:55:22 <jcraig> richardschwerdtfeger: Is the ATTA written in Python? How does is work?
15:55:38 <jcraig> Joanie: Python3 in mine (Py2 for Shane)
15:56:14 <jcraig> joanie: inspects through python binding for ATK SPI...
15:56:53 <jcraig> ShaneM: NVDA has it's own layer that they implemented.
15:56:59 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
15:57:28 <jcraig> richardschwerdtfeger: Not one for MSAA/UIA
15:57:43 <jcraig> ShaneM: but I got it form NVDA directly... so we're good
15:58:33 <jcraig> ShaneM: back to slides
15:58:46 <jcraig> fill in missing testable statements
15:59:11 <jcraig> are there missing event changes (???) in ARIA 1.1 we need to account for?
16:00:02 <jcraig> mck: some event changes related to ???
16:00:43 <jcraig> s/???/aria-haspopup/act-desc/busy
16:00:55 <jcraig> ShaneM: manual mode needs finishing
16:01:14 <jcraig> joanie: need to better present the terminal spew for human readability
16:01:23 <jcraig> ShaneM: need error checking
16:04:15 <jcraig> ShaneM: need Android and iOS as well
16:05:31 <jcraig> ShaneM: SVG would also work in this test harness
16:05:35 <jcraig> q?
16:07:10 <jcraig> richardschwerdtfeger: some of the 1.0 tests are dependent on timing and sequential steps
16:07:16 <joanie> MichaelC: No. We should run a concept to develop the best proof of contest
16:07:30 <joanie> s/MichaelC: No. We should run a concept to develop the best proof of contest//
16:07:31 <jcraig> ShaneM: already built into the wiki, but you can write those manually
16:08:21 <jcraig> ShaneM: tests that get generated are (updates it repo...)
16:08:57 <jcraig> from the wiki are consindered a step... but the arch allows /n/ steps
16:09:12 <jcraig> basically sequential scripting
16:09:30 <jcraig> s/updates it /updates Git /
16:09:51 <jcraig> ShaneM: "delay 3s" for example would be one step
16:11:16 <jcraig> ShaneM: shows JS includes for the test harness... ATTA and JS Test Runner
16:12:40 <jcraig> shows source of JSON object serial test steps... or this could take a json.js file passed in
16:14:53 <jcraig> ShaneM: plh suggested know the AAM mappings and generate those testable statements from generic ARIA assertions
16:15:52 <jcraig> JohnJansen: ATTA Microsoft wrote is not as extensive as yours, but they (Edge and Firefox version) are both open-sourced on GitHub
16:16:28 <jcraig> whereever the trees differ, we compared against the spec and filed bugs against Edge or Firefox
16:16:51 <ShaneM> https://spec-ops.github.io/atta-api/
16:17:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> github.com/microsoftedge/a11y
16:17:04 <jcraig> ShaneM: spec for this is on GitHub
16:17:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://github.com/microsoftedge/a11y
16:18:18 <jcraig> ShaneM: complex graphics are written in accessible SVG
16:18:30 <jcraig> jcraig: more of this please
16:19:07 <jcraig> joanie: unlike crazy a11y bugs, these are straightforward, so we can coalesce the output
16:19:46 <jcraig> ShaneM: If we can mainstream A11y testing, it would be great
16:20:02 <joanie> what I discovered is that a lot of issues were a single bug. They all need to be separate tests, however.
16:20:16 <jcraig> richardschwerdtfeger: would really speed up testing for CR
16:20:29 <jcraig> jcraig: and for browser continuous integration
16:21:25 <joanie> So what I plan to do is add checks for "known issues" so we can include in the output notations that it's all one bug and provide the bug URL so people volunteering to run tests don't have to work too hard to figure out what is an unexpected failure.
16:21:29 <jcraig> JohnJansen: inside a11y repo, there is an ATTA tool for web dev... run on your site
16:22:53 <jcraig> JohnJansen: targeted manually an ATTA for web devs... with an explainer
16:23:16 <mgylling_> mgylling_ has joined #aria
16:24:23 <jcraig> group: discussion of pros cons of various API techniques for writing these ATTA tools
16:24:31 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #aria
16:25:18 <jcraig> joanie: my ATTA limits testing to localhost
16:25:27 <jcraig> JohnJansen: ours runs inside web driver
16:25:40 <jcraig> s/web driver/WebDriver/
16:26:01 <jcraig> ShaneM: anything else?
16:26:09 <jcraig> richardschwerdtfeger: great job joanie and shane
16:26:16 <jcraig> group: *applause*
16:27:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: richardschwerdtfeger
16:28:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:28:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
16:28:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: APG Update
16:29:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: We need more people to be aware of this work
16:29:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: We took out all the stuff we are going to work on for the December working draft
16:30:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: There was a lot of outdated stuff from ARIA 1.0
16:30:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: If people are pointed to the APG on github we would like feedback. Developers are not giving us feedback on things we have not reviewed
16:31:08 <MichaelC> s/MichielBijil/MichielBijl/G
16:31:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: do each of these patterns reference code does not work?
16:31:50 <MichaelC> q+
16:32:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: I like activating a tab on focus but it does not work on iOS
16:32:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: that is listed as composite as optional for tab groups
16:33:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: it is the way tabs work on Macs
16:33:36 <MichaelC> q-
16:35:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: for a every example there will be functional patterns. These are for the most important ones that people are able see and test
16:35:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I can send you a number of combobox examples
16:35:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: from facebook
16:36:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: all of our examples are pure javascript and not component libraries
16:36:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: we will have a code guide
16:36:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichielBijil: we need more actual developers on this to make the examples
16:37:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: we have 5 people that are contributing code
16:39:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/master/aria-practices.html
16:40:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:40:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
16:44:34 <jcraig> s/reference code does not work?/reference workign code examples?/
16:44:57 <jcraig> s/workign/working/
16:48:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Critical Needs Assessment Space for Speech
16:53:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: We get sued when text is not spoken correctly
16:53:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: We have looked at SSML, CSS3 & PLS as an effective solution
16:54:13 <jcraig> s/We get sued when /We have a critical need for /
16:54:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: We need this precise authoring control and SSML does this at the markup level
16:55:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: When california says you have to pause x seconds after something is presented (the rules vary by state) we have to abide
16:55:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: PLS will let us define standard lexicons
16:55:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: We need this.
16:55:40 <jcraig> s/california/some state in the US/
16:55:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: we picked up 5 SSML alements that are important to us
16:56:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: say-as, phoneme, sub, emphasis, break
16:56:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: all of the testing vendors are coming to the realization that they can do it with an attribute model
16:56:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: epub3 already pioneered that
16:57:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: a data-attribute model is being explored by some vendors as a solution for custom, built-in AT* assessessment delvery platforms
16:57:36 <jcraig> q+
16:57:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: Read Aloud for LD and Language Learners
16:58:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: they took the attribute from the phoneme markeup and name-spaced it into epub
16:58:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: and it works
16:59:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: SSML Usage: There are <say-as interprea-as=“ordinal”> …
17:00:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: CSS3 speech ‘speak-as’ property but not as complete as SSML say-as
17:00:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: In the wild aria-label introduces other problems
17:00:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: … we want a standard solution and  not a custom solution for each AT
17:02:08 <richardschwerdtfeger>  mhakkinen: <sub alias=“World Wide Web Consortium”>W3C</sub>
17:02:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Common table salt is really <span substitution=“Sodium Chloride”>NaCL</span>
17:03:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> … <emphasis level=“strong” huge </emphasis> bank account!
17:03:47 <mgylling_> mgylling_ has joined #aria
17:03:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> … SML Usage: Take a deep <break time=“3s”> …
17:04:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> Content - a valid method (that doesnt break rendering) . …
17:04:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> for most of these we can map to Mac
17:06:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: in instances where people don’t want people modifying their speech you can make it a preference
17:06:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: most of these are in legacy speech engines
17:07:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: if the engines support SSML then we should be ok.
17:07:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkinen: what we have seen with the web speech api we can see who supports it.
17:08:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> mhakkineen: we are authoring the SSML now
17:08:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/mhakkineen/mhakkinen/
17:08:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSML-issues
17:08:55 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSSML-issues
17:09:09 <alastairc> https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSML-issues
17:09:21 <MichielBijl> s/"https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSSML-issues"//
17:09:24 <jcraig> s/https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSSML-issues/ignore me/
17:09:26 <mhakkinen_> mhakkinen_ has joined #aria
17:09:30 <mhakkinen_> http://ets-research.org/ia11ylab/ssmltool/
17:09:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
17:09:45 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:10:18 <ShaneM> NOTE:  I dont think it actually runs inside web driver.  I think they use web driver to connect.... but not 100% certain
17:10:55 <mhakkinen_> http://ets-research.org/ia11ylab/ssmltool/
17:11:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:11:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
17:11:09 <mhakkinen_> https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSML-issues
17:11:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:11:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
17:11:28 <jcraig> s|https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSSML-issues||
17:11:37 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:11:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:12:36 <jcraig> s|https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSSML-issues||g
17:15:50 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:15:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:16:28 <MichaelC> issue: Work on getting AT to follow pronunciation hints
17:16:28 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1045 - Work on getting at to follow pronunciation hints.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1045/edit>.
17:16:36 <MichaelC> associate issue-1045 with product-2
17:16:36 <trackbot> issue-1045 (Work on getting at to follow pronunciation hints) associated with product-2.
17:16:58 <MichaelC> issue-1045: see https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSML-issues
17:16:58 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-1045 Work on getting at to follow pronunciation hints.
17:18:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1045
17:19:06 <jcraig> s|s/""//||
17:19:15 <jcraig> s|s//ignore me/||
17:19:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent draft minutes
17:19:41 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:19:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent make minutes
17:50:51 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #aria
21:14:23 <sam> sam has joined #aria
21:29:17 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #aria
23:07:16 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
23:18:23 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria