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09:03:18 <dom> Meeting: Web & VR TPAC breakout
09:03:30 <dom> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2016/SessionIdeas#Web_.26_Virtual_Reality
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09:08:51 <dom> ScribeNick: dom
09:08:59 <dom> Anssi: Chrome has an experimental implementation
09:09:06 <dom> ... Edge is working on one
09:09:15 <dom> ... Samsung and Firefox have implementations as well
09:09:27 <dom> ... Ningxin (Intel) will show a demo of hand tracking from the Web
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09:09:36 <dom> ... Frank from MS will report on their implementation work
09:09:58 <dom> ... Then we will have Lua (?) discussing how to make 360° video first class citizen on the Web
09:10:10 <dom> ... we'll go through these talks and then open the discussion
09:10:29 <dom> ... any suggestion already for topics worth discussing
09:10:43 <dom> Topic: Changes to the WebVR spec
09:11:01 <dom> Frank: I'll summarize the changes to the WebVR spec brought in September
09:11:12 <dom> ... We've looking at how to apply the WebVR spec to Hololens
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09:11:24 <dom> ... and worked with Mozilla and Google on adapting the API to more devices
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09:11:42 <dom> ... we've suggested adding VRDisplay.getFrameData()
09:12:18 <cyril> s/Lua (?)/Louay/
09:12:19 <dom> Anssi: for context, WebVR is a low-level API
09:12:46 <dom> ... completed by higher level frameworks such as a-frame to make it easy for Web dev to create content
09:13:07 <dom> Frank: the good outcome of the changes to the WebVR spec is that it makes it easier to adopt to more devices in these frameworks
09:13:20 <dom> ... other changes to the spec include deprecation of some methods
09:13:59 <dom> ... happy to get questions and feedback on the WebVR spec
09:14:19 <dom> Anssi: I'll give you a quick overview of what a high-level VR framework looks like
09:14:37 <dom> ... [showing a-frame.io and its usage of web components for declarative VR scenes]
09:15:17 <dom> Topic: Hand tracking use case for VR
09:15:53 <dom> Ningxin: [showing leapmotion usage in WebVR]
09:16:03 <dom> ... showing the user's hands in the VR view is very natural
09:16:19 <dom> ... and enables to use gestures as a mode of interaction in immersieve experiences
09:16:40 <dom> ... MS Hololens has also gestures added to their mixed-reality experience
09:16:54 <dom> ... Intel project alloy has also looking at this space
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09:17:02 <dom> ... the device brings depth sensing
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09:17:20 <dom> ... Intel's crosswalk web runtime engine has an experimental handtracking Web API
09:17:32 <dom> ... it exposes a gesture API to Web content
09:17:48 <dom> ... [demo with a depth camera]
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09:18:07 <dom> ... the depth information facilitates the hand recognition & gesture detection
09:18:28 <dom> ... [depth sensing capture demo, with hand detection highlighted]
09:19:08 <dom> ... VR Head mounted displays come with cameras that can be used for environment detection
09:19:26 <dom> ... the 3D detection enables precise mapping of the hand position
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09:20:01 <dom> Topic: 360° video
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09:20:28 <dom> [Louay presenting]
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09:20:53 <dom> Louay: from Fraunhofer Fokus
09:21:10 <dom> ... we are also working on the Web VR topic, focusing more on streaming and 360° video in the browser and TV sets
09:21:15 <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonathan_Jeon(ETRI)
09:21:15 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
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09:21:23 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:21:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-webvr-minutes.html clapierre
09:21:28 <dom> ... in this slide I show the different ways of streaming and processing 360 videos
09:21:36 <dom> ... each coming with their advantages and challenges
09:21:56 <sangwhan> present+ Sangwhan_Moon
09:21:59 <dom> ... in the 1st case, the server streams the whole 360° content to the browser and leaves it to the browser to render it correctly
09:22:12 <dom> ... the processing component enables to change the current view port
09:22:30 <dom> ... the advantage of that approach is that there is low motion latency when moving the view port
09:22:46 <dom> ... the second option is to processing on the server side, and streams the result of that processing to the client
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09:22:54 <dom> ... this removes any requirement from the client
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09:23:15 <dom> ... this is particularly relevant to TV sets - it enables to play 360 video in HBTV terminal
09:23:24 <dom> ... where the motion is done via a remote control
09:23:41 <dom> ... the problems here that network introduces latency
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09:23:55 <dom> ... and it also requires a lot of server processing since each client needs its own dedicated processing
09:24:12 <dom> ... the 3rd option works the same way as adaptive streaming does
09:24:29 <dom> ... with prepared pre-processed 360° videos on the server
09:24:47 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:24:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-webvr-minutes.html dom
09:24:48 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
09:25:20 <dom> Louay: you do all the pre-processing and push the resulting files on a static Web server and use MSE to combine the segments on the client
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09:25:36 <dom> ... there can be different algorithms to prepare the content
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09:26:03 <dom> ... we need intelligent caching since we have an additional dimension (time & space)
09:26:19 <dom> ... [showing a demo of the 3rd option]
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09:28:31 <dom> ... WebVR expects all the rendering to be done on the client, which isn't quite the case here
09:28:53 <dom> ... this solution introduces delay which might be problematic for some use cases
09:29:46 <dom> ... it's probably more useful e.g. in second screen cases than HMD, but maybe with intelligent buffering it could be used in the WebVR context
09:29:56 <dom> Anssi: I think you need a lower latency for HMD
09:30:14 <dom> Louay: you could play around the quality / latency trade off
09:30:31 <dom> Zoltan: what's the latency figure for client side processing?
09:30:46 <dom> Louay: the processing on the client side requires streaming the whole video
09:31:02 <dom> ... in smartphones and laptops that would work, but probably not for Chromecast or TV sets
09:31:17 <dom> Louay: finishing here with some open questions
09:31:34 <dom> ... a browser that supports natively 360 video would need to expose events and information for the viewport
09:32:06 <dom> ... likewise, MSE likely needs to adapt to 360 videos
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09:32:21 <dom> Frank: do you support other projections schemes?
09:32:54 <dom> Louay: @@@
09:33:21 <dom> ... 6 viewports ought to be sufficient, but in practice we do more of those to have a smoother rendering
09:33:28 <dom> ... this of course requires a lot of storage capacity
09:34:01 <dom> Anssi: this illustrates how to bring VR as a progressive enhancement to the Web
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09:34:20 <dom> Topic: Open discussion
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09:35:02 <dom> Anssi: WebVR is an important piece of the overall Web & VR space, but it's just one piece
09:35:08 <dom> ... there are many other issues that needs solving
09:35:17 <dom> ... and that's what the Web & VR workshop will be looking at
09:35:26 <dom> ... [showing the list VR workshop topics]
09:35:40 <dom> -> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/vr-workshop/  W3C Workshop on Web & Virtual Reality,  October 2016, 19-20, San Jose, CA, USA
09:36:18 <dom> Anssi: topics include adapting to new input methods, accessibility support
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09:36:45 <dom> ... formats and codecs, declarative content
09:36:52 <dom> ... 360 videos
09:37:16 <dom> ... VR as progressive enhancement; in particular, making sure that Web developers can re-use their skills - content is king
09:39:11 <dom> ... there are intersections between AR & VR that the workshop will consider, but the main focus of the event is VR
09:39:28 <dsinger> q+ to mention mpeg and 3gpp work (at the appropriate moment)
09:40:23 <dom> DKA: one of the issues we are running into in Samsung when it comes to showing VR content is performance
09:40:33 <dom> ... will that be covered?
09:41:02 <dom> Anssi: sure, that sounds like something we would gladly accept as a topic (and a pull request on the workshop page)
09:41:13 <dom> DKA: we're just starting to think at the issue
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09:41:24 <dom> ... there is a question of how to tackle it at the platform level
09:41:25 <Louay> present+ Louay Bassbouss
09:41:36 <dom> ... and then how to make it so that developers create performance applications
09:41:56 <cyril> q+
09:42:26 <sangwhan> q+
09:42:32 <sangwhan> q?
09:42:32 <dom> DKA: I think a key is that in VR, performance is a health issue
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09:42:47 <dom> Anssi: Frank, how has that been approached in your implementation?
09:43:11 <cyril> q+
09:43:12 <dom> q+ dsinger
09:43:13 <sangwhan> q+
09:43:20 <sangwhan> (shucks)
09:43:33 <sangwhan> s/(shucks)//
09:43:34 <dom> Frank: from our perspective, it's very doable
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09:43:46 <clapierre> q+
09:44:02 <dom> Cyril: working on an open source project doing video streaming
09:44:13 <dom> ... there are 2 different topics: interfaces to control the display and interfaces
09:44:19 <dom> ... and then one on video processing
09:44:35 <dom> ... I wonder where W3C stands on these fields
09:44:38 <sangwhan> q-
09:44:42 <tidoust> s/open source project/open source project named GPAC/
09:44:43 <dom> ... Note that other SDOs are working on VR
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09:44:55 <cyril> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MPEG-Virtual-Reality
09:44:55 <dom> ... MPEG is working on video & audio codecs on VR and has started a survey
09:45:17 <dom> ... trying to identify the need in terms of compression, streaming for VR
09:45:33 <dom> ... the results will be presented at the MPEG meeting next month
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09:45:53 <dom> anssi: on where W3C fits, that's part of the question we want to discuss at the VR workshop
09:46:18 <chunming> present+
09:46:29 <dom> ... we will hear from instance from Khronos with Neil who will be at the workshop
09:46:52 <dom> cyril: on media vs api, one thing that I see as needed is accessing the metadata that will end up in media VR files
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09:47:17 <anssik> q?
09:47:21 <cyril> q-
09:47:33 <dom> @@@_Samsung: what metadata are you thinking of more specifically?
09:47:42 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
09:47:43 <dom> cyril: e.g. data captured by sensors during the capture
09:47:46 <dka> s/@@@/Mahesh
09:47:48 <dom> ... the project being used
09:47:54 <wonsuk> q+ shepazu
09:48:15 <dom> Mahesh: for instance we want metadata on 180 vs 360° video type
09:48:25 <dom> ... we're interested to hear about more specific needs in this space
09:48:36 <anssik> ack dsinger
09:48:56 <dom> Dave_Singer: I also go to MPEG & 3GPP meetings, and I encourage them to scope more specifically what they are doing in this space
09:49:08 <dom> ... and obviously would encourage W3C to do the same
09:49:19 <dom> ... MPEG will likely be looking at compression and streaming
09:49:25 <dom> ... 3GPP at the impact on network
09:49:47 <anssik> ack clapierre
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09:49:55 <dom> ... and W3C should certainly look at the API that can feed the network needs
09:50:23 <dom> Charles: first, it's critical to have accessibility baked in from the very beginning
09:50:44 <chunming> q?
09:50:54 <dom> ... 2nd, the hand recognition demo was excellent, and it would provide a great way to do sign language interpretation
09:51:07 <anssik> ack shepazu
09:51:23 <dom> Doug: do you have concrete ideas on the scene graphs? for declarative scenes
09:52:32 <dom> Dom: a-frame.io is a good example of what's possible, and how to use web components for experimentation in this space
09:52:55 <dom> Doug: there has been some talks in SVG to make the SVG group a "graphics" WG (with canvas & others)
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09:53:19 <dom> Anssi: would be good to have someone from the SVG WG at the workshop
09:53:22 <dom> Doug: I'll find out
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09:53:35 <dom> ... (but SVG is not appropriate for that kind of stuff in general)
09:53:43 <anssik> q?
09:54:28 <dom> https://github.com/w3c/vr-workshop
09:54:39 <dom> -> https://github.com/w3c/vr-workshop GH repo of the VR workshop page
09:55:13 <chunming> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:55:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-webvr-minutes.html chunming
09:55:15 <dom> Anssi: Thanks for joining us! Hopefully this got you a bit excited about the topic
09:55:18 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:55:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-webvr-minutes.html dom
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10:05:46 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:05:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-webvr-minutes.html clapierre
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