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14:40:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-thumb-irc
14:40:27 <nigel> rrsagent, make logs public
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14:40:35 <MarkVickers> present+
14:40:37 <hober> ericc: could have an extra video track as part of the main video resource
14:40:56 <hober> cyril: mp4 has this already
14:41:13 <hober> ericc: problem is that you only have thumbnails for the currently buffered portion of video
14:41:38 <hober> ericc: people want to see thumbnails for the whole length regarldess of what's buffered
14:41:48 <nigel> Present+ cyril, hober, zcorpan, ericc, MarkVickers, FrankOlivier, nigel
14:41:54 <nigel> scribeNick: hober
14:42:00 <nigel> Meeting: Thumbnails in video
14:42:26 <hober> [scribe missed a bit]
14:43:08 <hober> ericc: another way to do it would be to have a separate video file for the thumbnails
14:43:19 <hober> ... we need a way to associate that with a <video>
14:43:28 <hober> could define a new <track kind> value
14:43:51 <hober> ... one advantage is that it's self-contained, with images and timestamps
14:43:58 <cyril> cyril has joined #thumb
14:44:12 <hober> FrankOlivier: with compression etc., small file, loads quicly
14:44:19 <hober> s/quicly/quickly/
14:44:42 <hober> ericc: could use an image sprite
14:45:18 <hober> ??: video files don't necessarily have timestamps, may just have frame numbers or offset info
14:45:26 <cyril> s/??/nigel/
14:45:43 <hober> nigel: what if you want 1 thumbnail per minite of the main video
14:46:04 <hober> FrankOlivier: you'd make the thumbnail video have a lower framerate
14:46:17 <hober> ericc: have it be the same duration as the main video
14:46:42 <hober> cyril: jwplayer uses a vtt file containing geometry fragids to a single image sprite
14:48:10 <cyril> https://support.jwplayer.com/customer/portal/articles/1407439-adding-preview-thumbnails
14:50:41 <hober> zcorpan: use cases?
14:50:48 <nigel> s/what if/Where in the system architecture should the mapping be done between main video times and thumbnail times: for example what if
14:51:02 <hober> ericc: builtin controls and custom controls
14:52:00 <hober> cyril: is this a video track in the main video or a separate file
14:52:05 <hober> ericc: you want both
14:53:01 <hober> cyril: if the video contains captions in the video file, does edge expose those text tracks to js?
14:53:03 <hober> FrankOlivier: we odn't
14:53:06 <hober> ericc: webkit does
14:53:12 <hober> s/odn't/don't/
14:53:37 <hober> ericc: sites that implement custom controls should be able to use this
14:53:47 <hober> zcorpan: doesn't make sense as a track element
14:53:56 <hober> zcorpan: prefer thumbs=""
14:55:04 <hober> hober: what about multiple sizes, need microsyntax
14:55:16 <hober> FrankOlivier: need multiple formats too, prefers track elements
14:55:42 <hober> cyril: we want both, for live you want the thumbs in-band
14:56:08 <hober> ericc: we don't have to block the load event like we do for enabled text tracks
14:56:25 <hober> nigel: thumbnail viewer is a <video> itself
14:57:06 <hober> FrankOlivier: this is MediaController
14:57:18 <hober> zcorpan: no, because you might show a range of thumbs at once
14:57:30 <hober> zcorpan: this is not semanticly a track, we should not use <track>
14:57:48 <hober> cyril: similar to <track kind=chapter>
14:58:01 <hober> FrankOlivier: [something about data cues]
15:00:08 <hober> [chat about native controls v. custom controls; novel ui possible]
15:01:12 <hober> ericc: maybe a cue type, like data cue
15:01:26 <hober> ericc: then you get an event when it's time to display some thumbnail
15:01:53 <hober> ericc: not sure that's useful
15:02:06 <hober> zcorpan: events don't help
15:02:18 <hober> ericc: want a method to get the thumb for a time
15:02:22 <hober> FrankOlivier: or to get all of them
15:02:28 <hober> zcorpan: and their timings
15:02:42 <hober> ericc: and you get blob urls for lazy resolution
15:03:12 <hober> nigel: [rounding concern]
15:03:25 <hober> ericc: it's simple, it's frame in thumbnail video at same time
15:03:38 <hober> ... up to author to use same time scale
15:04:16 <hober> FrankOlivier: media fragments api has time offset and id
15:04:54 <hober> [frank and cyril talk about media frag id being frame id]
15:05:33 <hober> ericc: do we need the "get the thumb for time x" api
15:05:35 <hober> hober: yes
15:05:51 <hober> eric: problem in [something] we shouldn't repeat
15:06:10 <hober> ericc: for live content, don't want to hang onto old thumbs that you can't seek back to
15:06:27 <hober> zcorpan: UA should be able to purge thumbs for unseekable ranges
15:06:30 <hober> ericc: yes
15:06:39 <hober> ericc: we should do the same thing for vtt
15:07:16 <hober> [more vtt and live streams discussion]
15:07:51 <hober> ericc: does it make sense to support both kinds, jwplayer-style and a video file
15:07:56 <hober> FrankOlivier: video file only
15:08:04 <hober> zcorpan, hober: agreed
15:08:21 <hober> [scribe missed something MarkVickers said]
15:08:52 <hober> cyril: [concern about compression and performance]
15:09:08 <hober> ericc: not a problem in practice, can use hardare decoder
15:09:30 <hober> nigel: what about devices with a signle hardward decoder
15:09:51 <hober> ericc: software decoder fallback is fine
15:10:15 <hober> nigel: animated gif?
15:10:27 <hober> ericc: anything the platform supports as a video
15:10:51 <hober> MarkVickers: alternate video track with all iframes
15:11:06 <hober> ericc: like mp4, need way to identify purpose of in-band track
15:11:19 <hober> ... makes sense for live content
15:11:31 <hober> MarkVickers: what about on demand?
15:11:38 <nigel> s/gif?/ why not generalise to any format that allows a particular single image at a time to be referenced?
15:11:46 <hober> ericc: can only display thumbs for currently buffered range
15:12:29 <hober> ericc: this is another reason for <track type>
15:12:49 <hober> zcorpan: this complicates media loading
15:13:09 <hober> hober: only if you support them
15:13:21 <hober> zcorpan: but you need to expose them to js
15:13:33 <hober> nigel: json file with links to images
15:14:05 <hober> FrankOlivier: you could use data cue for that
15:14:51 <hober> FrankOlivier: on cell network, loading lots of images separately is bad
15:15:01 <hober> zcorpan: how do you envision multiple sizes working?
15:15:22 <hober> zcorpan: wouldn't work with <track kind>, need something else as well
15:15:41 <hober> hober: like sizes=""
15:15:46 <hober> zcorpan: or srcset=""
15:16:20 <hober> ericc: we only need to expose something if it's important for script to be able to pick whih thumb track
15:16:44 <hober> hober: what about custom controls
15:16:55 <hober> FrankOlivier: reinventing media queries?
15:16:58 <hober> zcorpan ericc: no
15:17:47 <hober> [something about adaptive streaming and evaluation of media queries]
15:18:34 <hober> cyril: what's the relationship between thumbnails and posters
15:19:20 <hober> ericc: poster is dimensions of main video, dimensions of thumb video is different (smaller)
15:19:56 <hober> ericc: coming up with api for script to be able to specify resolution
15:20:48 <hober> need to expose metadata about each video track in the thumbnail video, including resolution and which one is selected
15:21:48 <hober> nigel: maybe storyboard not the same as scrubbing thumbnails
15:23:08 <hober> cyril: might want to check sourcing in-band media ... document
15:23:10 <cyril> https://dev.w3.org/html5/html-sourcing-inband-tracks/
15:24:21 <hober> hober: action items?
15:24:45 <hober> ACTION: zcorpan to file bug on HTML
15:25:27 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:25:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-thumb-minutes.html nigel
15:25:54 <nigel> rrsagent, make logs public
15:26:12 <nigel> Chair: ericc
15:26:15 <nigel> rrsagent, make logs public
15:26:55 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:26:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-thumb-minutes.html nigel
15:27:08 <zcorpan> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/1805 Should allow purging of unseekable inband cues
15:29:12 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:29:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-thumb-minutes.html nigel
15:32:27 <zcorpan> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/1806 Feature request: preview thumbnail video when seeking a video
15:34:03 <zcorpan> ACTION- 1
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