12:56:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
12:56:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-shapes-irc
12:56:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
12:56:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
12:56:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
12:56:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
12:56:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
12:56:57 <trackbot> Date: 21 September 2016
12:57:35 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
12:57:48 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
12:57:53 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.21
12:58:20 <Arnaud> present+ ericP, Arnaud
12:59:41 <hknublau> present+
13:01:24 <TallTed> present+
13:03:16 <AndyS> present+
13:05:12 <Arnaud> regrets: Dimitris, Jose
13:06:42 <kcoyle> present+
13:06:48 <kcoyle> scribenick: kcoyle
<kcoyle> topic: Admin
13:08:54 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 14 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/14-shapes-minutes.html
13:09:41 <kcoyle> Bart pinged - ok with Issue 137 resolution
13:09:49 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 14 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/14-shapes-minutes.html
13:10:13 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Next meeting
13:11:38 <kcoyle> Tied for Tuesday and Wednesday, with some not being able to make one or the other
13:12:32 <kcoyle> Can do one or the other, or alternate weeks, one Tuesday, one Wednesday
13:16:13 <kcoyle> TallTed: every other is not a good idea (Eric says the same thing)
13:16:27 <AndyS>  Help editors to attend?
13:19:29 <kcoyle> Arnaud: when will we meet next week?
13:19:40 <kcoyle> ericP: Tuesday!
13:19:52 <TallTed> +1  Sept 27, encouraging early agenda dispatch
13:20:03 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: next meeting on Tuesday 27
13:20:11 <kcoyle> +1
13:20:16 <ericP> +1
13:20:28 <TallTed> +1
13:20:30 <hknublau> 0
13:20:38 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: next meeting on Tuesday 27
13:21:10 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Issue-71
13:21:19 <ericP> issue-71
13:21:19 <trackbot> issue-71 -- SHACL Endpoint Protocol -- open
13:21:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/71
13:22:12 <kcoyle> Arnaud: reached out to JimA regarding OSLC; ok with closing it
13:22:13 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-71, as is - not enough time left to tackle this issue in this version of SHACL
13:22:21 <hknublau> +1
13:22:27 <kcoyle> +1
13:22:35 <ericP> +0
13:23:00 <AndyS> +1
13:23:22 <TallTed> +1
13:23:27 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-71, as is - not enough time left to tackle this issue in this version of SHACL
13:23:43 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Issue-105
13:24:05 <trackbot> issue-105 -- SHACL SPARQL constraints depend on namespaces in a graph, which is not defined -- open
13:24:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/105
13:24:39 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-105 adopting the so called "decomposed prefixes in Turtle" proposal drafted by Holger in https://rawgit.com/w3c/data-shapes/bf5efb571196cf3c6b63137302c9c13a369e3466/shacl/index.html#sparql-prefixes
13:25:09 <hknublau> +1
13:25:10 <ericP> +1
13:25:25 <kcoyle> 0
13:25:31 <TallTed> +0
13:25:33 <AndyS> +0
13:25:46 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-105 adopting the so called "decomposed prefixes in Turtle" proposal drafted by Holger in https://rawgit.com/w3c/data-shapes/bf5efb571196cf3c6b63137302c9c13a369e3466/shacl/index.html#sparql-prefixes
13:26:32 <kcoyle> topic: Issue-68
13:26:32 <trackbot> issue-68 -- pre-binding not defined in SHACL spec -- open
13:26:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/68
13:26:35 <AndyS> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sparql-exists/2016Sep/0000.html
13:28:32 <kcoyle> AndyS: discussion on-going; key is to go for simplicity; blank nodes still a pattern because act as variable
13:29:07 <kcoyle> ... bnodes are treated as constants
13:29:24 <kcoyle> ... no entailment happening
13:30:03 <kcoyle> Arnaud: good that discussion as resumed; not sure though about time frame (winter holidays coming up)
13:30:19 <kcoyle> ... need to be at CR by early 2017
13:30:47 <kcoyle> ... what are the alternatives? what if we cannot agree?
13:31:43 <kcoyle> AndyS: direction I outlined are the ones that will work best; uses of exists/not exists in actual use not that complicated
13:32:13 <kcoyle> ... group cannot make decision, not a working group
13:32:47 <kcoyle> Arnaud: process that exists makes it hard to do revision of specs (that may have errors)
13:33:17 <ericP> q+ to say we can add an errata as well
13:33:17 <kcoyle> ... put in our spec "sparql broken"?
13:34:18 <kcoyle> AndyS: set a good example - community can decide to revise spec
13:34:56 <Arnaud> ack ericP
13:34:56 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say we can add an errata as well
13:34:58 <kcoyle> ... two problems: 1) bnodes (usually treated as constants) 2) things that dont make sense to write in the syntax
13:35:38 <kcoyle> ericP: Arnaud proposing add note to our spec; but then people have no pointer from sparql to our spec
13:35:55 <kcoyle> ... could add to sparql errata
13:36:10 <kcoyle> AndyS: community group will come up with a report, can point to that
13:37:10 <kcoyle> ... process: write to sparql comments list, and gets added to errata
13:37:27 <kcoyle> ... errata doc just collects notes for next group
13:37:34 <ericP> -> https://www.w3.org/2013/sparql-errata SPARQL errata has 15 errata on query
13:37:43 <ericP> s/has 15/has 16/
13:38:07 <kcoyle> Arnaud: sounds good/legal. How do we highlight that in SHACL?
13:38:26 <kcoyle> AndyS: point to community group document
13:38:39 <kcoyle> Arnaud: would be a normative reference
13:40:15 <kcoyle> AndyS: encourages everyone to join community group discussion
13:40:51 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/community/sparql-exists/
13:41:07 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Test suite
13:41:56 <kcoyle> Arnaud: w3c getting serious about test suites; i18n needs to be checked; also security
13:43:06 <kcoyle> ...only 50% of working groups even have a PLAN for test suite;
13:43:45 <kcoyle> ... needed for CR
13:44:03 <ericP> ericP: the ShEx test suite is pretty methodical. has reasonable coverage testing.
13:44:08 <ericP> -> https://github.com/shexSpec/shexTest/tree/master/validation ShEx test suite
13:44:47 <kcoyle> ericP: shex test suite had translations to shacl, but shacl has changed; there are about 700 shex/shacl tests
13:45:32 <kcoyle> ... doing a coverage analysis, e.g. or inside an and; node constraints in various positions
13:45:48 <kcoyle> ... depends on jose to do translation
13:46:40 <simonstey> simonstey has joined #shapes
13:46:55 <kcoyle> Arnaud: encouraging that there is a large body of tests; doesn't have to be complete to go to CR, but plan and framework has to be there
13:46:57 <ericP> -> https://github.com/shexSpec/shexTest/blob/master/validation/manifest.ttl ShEx manifest
13:47:37 <ericP> s|master/validation|TEisSE/validation|
13:47:58 <ericP> https://github.com/shexSpec/shexTest/blob/TEisSE/validation/manifest.ttl
13:49:08 <simonstey> present+
13:49:24 <Arnaud> trackbot, draft minutes
13:49:24 <trackbot> Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot, draft minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
13:49:38 <kcoyle> ericP: quick tour - data types, node kinds, etc.
13:49:43 <Arnaud> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:49:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-shapes-minutes.html Arnaud
13:50:23 <kcoyle> ericP: (geeks out about floating and other functions)
13:51:28 <kcoyle> Arnaud: have to close all issues
13:51:46 <kcoyle> topic: Issue-177
13:51:46 <trackbot> issue-177 -- Abstract Syntax is disconnected from concrete syntax -- open
13:51:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/177
13:52:05 <kcoyle> ericP: need to catch up
13:52:09 <kcoyle> q+
13:52:49 <kcoyle> hknublau: language tag issue is resolved
13:53:03 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
13:53:48 <ericP> kcoyle: we've done extensive edits based on recieved comments. please read editor's draft.
13:53:49 <kcoyle> draft has been updated based on comments
13:54:51 <kcoyle> don't yet have error levels
13:55:05 <kcoyle> ericP: error levels don't have impact on semantics
13:55:30 <kcoyle> ... in shex level is just annotation property
13:55:47 <kcoyle> ... so we can add to AS and note that it doesn't have impact on semantics
13:55:51 <simonstey> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-abstract-syntax/
13:56:17 <kcoyle> ... how to test error functionality?
13:56:51 <kcoyle> hknublau: each constraint violation has point to constraint component - so message will be different in different implementations, don't need to test
13:57:30 <kcoyle> ericP: don't know what error message will be returned - can't know what the error message will be
13:57:49 <kcoyle> hknublau: but those are different errors, so they would all need to be returned
13:58:25 <kcoyle> ... the results ontology returns one object, link to focus node
13:58:52 <simonstey> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#validation-report
13:59:06 <kcoyle> ... says what has to be returned; footnote says some implementations return t/f
13:59:36 <kcoyle> hknublau: each condition has a returned validation message
14:00:14 <kcoyle> ericP: in shex this is just informative; doesn't say what failure is
14:00:32 <kcoyle> ... so need to add to test suite
14:01:35 <kcoyle> hknublau: already has this in test framework, saved returned results as part of tests
14:01:59 <hknublau> Can't hear anything anymore.
14:02:22 <hknublau> Meeting still ongoing?
14:03:27 <hknublau> WebEx doesnt seem to connect me any more.
14:03:35 <hknublau> I try reconnecting, but it hangs now.
14:04:00 <kcoyle> try again
14:05:40 <kcoyle> ericP: we will need to add test messages to AS
14:06:36 <kcoyle> Arnaud: would like to publish more often; so need to keep two drafts in sync
14:06:49 <kcoyle> ... need to show "wide review"
14:07:44 <kcoyle> ericP: need to show what communities you reached out to
14:08:01 <kcoyle> Arnaud: INRIA has an implementation of SHACL
14:08:53 <kcoyle> ... possibly just core; will find out more
14:10:01 <kcoyle> topic: Issue-178
14:10:01 <trackbot> issue-178 -- Should sh:message be permitted at constraints, too? -- raised
14:10:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/178
14:11:05 <kcoyle> hknublau: no way to customize message on core constraints
14:11:43 <kcoyle> ... propose to generalize sh:message - to be usable on any constraint
14:11:56 <simonstey> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#results-message
14:11:56 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-178
14:11:59 <simonstey> +1
14:12:01 <hknublau> +1
14:12:09 <kcoyle> +1
14:12:10 <ericP> q+ to say that having defined, structured error responses is motivated by this use case
14:12:13 <TallTed> +1
14:12:26 <Arnaud> ack ericP
14:12:26 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that having defined, structured error responses is motivated by this use case
14:13:06 <kcoyle> ericP: one main reason to have defined structured error messages; is to have structured responses
14:13:29 <kcoyle> ... the hook already exists;
14:13:52 <kcoyle> hknublau: this gives the power to the author of the shape; doesn't depend on engine
14:14:16 <kcoyle> ericP: this could be an application-specific feature; but this makes it a standard feature
14:14:17 <ericP> +0
14:14:40 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-178
14:15:46 <kcoyle> ericP: my concern is - what happens if there are multiple constraints?
14:16:48 <kcoyle> hknublau: this isn't always useful when there are multiple constraints - so author of shape can choose to structure shape differently
14:17:27 <kcoyle> ericP: can work around it by restructuring constraints around error messages
14:18:36 <kcoyle> ... what to do when every node constraint gives the same message?
14:19:06 <kcoyle> hknublau: allow this; let author create usable message
14:19:59 <kcoyle> Arnaud: can't prevent people making mistakes
14:20:15 <kcoyle> ericP: document this well
14:20:52 <hknublau> q+
14:21:05 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
14:21:36 <kcoyle> hknublau: peter sent email ~ month ago; we need to respond to public mailing list comments
14:23:01 <kcoyle> Arnaud: best to have "informal-ish" process; just be careful to represent accurate WG position
14:25:07 <kcoyle> hknublau: will send email linking to page with responses
14:27:58 <kcoyle> Arnaud: brings up virtual f2f again - think about it as a way to finalize spec
14:30:43 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
14:30:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:30:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ericP, Arnaud, hknublau, TallTed, AndyS, kcoyle, simonstey
14:30:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:30:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
14:30:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:30:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items