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10:08:15 <nigel> Present+ nigel
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10:08:26 <zcorpan> Simon Pieters, Opera
10:08:54 <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth, Microsoft
10:08:55 <yoav> Yoav Weiss, Akamai
10:09:00 <nigel> scribenick: nigel
10:09:03 <dsinger> …is David Singer (Apple)
10:09:03 <cyril> Cyril Concolato, Telecom ParisTech & GPAC
10:09:04 <jihye> Jihye Hong, LG elec.
10:09:05 <nigel> nigel: Nigel Megitt, BBC
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10:10:49 <nigel> yoav: Responsive Images is something we worked on and implemented - it's awesome.
10:11:01 <nigel> ... but we still see people advocating fixed width and height in the HTML because the browser
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10:11:14 <nigel> ... does not know the image's aspect ratio and height for performing layout unless the authors
10:11:26 <nigel> ... perform hacks to get the aspect ratio in place. So this is a problem that needs solving that we want
10:11:40 <nigel> ... to discuss. We have some emails this morning on the responsive images mailing lists proposing
10:11:55 <nigel> ... various declarative markup ways to do that; there are also proposals for a CSS based solution to replace
10:12:06 <nigel> ... the existing hacks to specify aspect ratio for images and other elements. Discuss.
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10:12:12 <zcorpan> example in the spec for how to solve this issue with css today, https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#introduction-3:art-direction-3
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10:12:48 <nigel> zcorpan: This works - it's annoying to have to use CSS I guess, and you have to specify both width and height
10:12:52 <nigel> ... for each break point in the CSS>
10:12:56 <nigel> s/>/.
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10:16:19 <nigel> gregwhitworth: I would prefer not to propagate layout based thing inside HTML, primarily because there
10:16:29 <nigel> ... are other reasons to specify aspect ratio than images.
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10:16:36 <nigel> ... I would like to see it in CSS.
10:16:52 <nigel> ... I loved seeing a spec for this and also that you guys are tackling sizes.
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10:17:21 <nigel> ... To me defining another aspect ratio is an additional constraint. I would prefer to set a width+height or
10:17:44 <nigel> ... a width or a height, and set aspect ratio = true|false and use max/min constraints to allow flex
10:18:04 <nigel> ... I'm not a huge fan of specifying an aspect ratio specifically.
10:19:26 <nigel> jkt: The reason for adding sizes to the CSS spec was so that you could clearly define either size being absent
10:19:50 <gregwhitworth> https://jonathankingston.github.io/logical-sizing-properties/#propdef-aspect-ratio
10:19:51 <nigel> ... e.g. missing height or width and that would be calculated from the aspect ratio
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10:20:01 <nigel> s/.../jkt:
10:20:26 <nigel> gregwhitworth: So you could technically still have a missing height or width without having the sizes shorthand
10:21:25 <nigel> yoav: The point is that people are recommending fixed width and height to avoid reflows while the page is loading.
10:21:44 <nigel> ... They're not using image also so that's a particular case. I want people to be able to define images
10:22:00 <nigel> ... with aspect ratios so that they won't reflow when the image reloads - bouncing around is awful on mobile.
10:22:16 <nigel> ... You could say that css aspect ratio is enough, but still people advocate html width and height because
10:22:34 <nigel> ... it is easy to verify. I'm in favour of a CSS based proposal but we may need an equivalent in markup
10:22:38 <nigel> ... as an alternative to width and height.
10:22:42 <nigel> gregwhitworth: That feels redundant.
10:22:47 <nigel> yoav: It is in a way
10:23:11 <nigel> dbaron: I wonder if we want something that does what HTML height and width were perhaps originally intended
10:23:30 <nigel> ... to do, which is indicate the expected image size but not override if the height and width are actually wrong.
10:23:45 <nigel> ... Also if you set one of the height and width properties then you only scale in one dimension rather than
10:23:53 <nigel> ... in both according to the aspect ratio.
10:24:12 <zcorpan> inside the srcset microsyntax
10:26:06 <dbaron> saying that perhaps we could have something (maybe inside the srcset microsyntax, ugh), that could describe the intrinsice width/height/aspect-ratio of the resource being pointed to, but only be used while the image is loading, and not override the resource nor set any CSS properties
10:26:08 <dsinger> q+ to talk about measurements, and about resolution
10:26:21 <nigel> yoav: Currently it only sets width...
10:26:30 <nigel> zcorpan: ... but it has no effect until the image is loaded.
10:26:54 <nigel> yoav: I guess with CSS it would also be applicable to non-image elements, which would be good enough from a loading perspective.
10:28:04 <nigel> gregwhitworth: Setting dimensions of a box is usually CSS's job, that's why I want to do it there.
10:28:08 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
10:28:19 <nigel> gregwhitworth:  Then we also get the benefits of doing it on other elements.
10:28:29 <nigel> ... It would be worth seeing a proposal on the html side also.
10:28:37 <nigel> ... The main use case is to see where these are being used.
10:29:03 <nigel> ... I know there are more use cases to understand not just in mobile.
10:29:30 <dsinger> q?
10:29:42 <cyril> q+
10:29:45 <nigel> gregwhitworth: I'd like to set some actions.
10:30:16 <nigel> ack dsinger
10:30:16 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to talk about measurements, and about resolution
10:30:37 <nigel> dsinger: It's rare to want non isotropic scaling of images so it does seem to make sense to be able to specify
10:30:43 <nigel> ... either height or width but not both.
10:31:00 <nigel> ... I would dispute that a pixel count is a visual size. All screens are not 72dpi anymore.
10:31:15 <nigel> ... I'm not comfortable with the idea that pixel counts indicate actual size.
10:31:38 <nigel> yoav: The srcset sizes syntax in html tackles that and allows the browser to use the density of the entity as
10:31:39 <zcorpan> q?
10:31:50 <nigel> yoav:  well as the dimensions and take both into account.
10:32:07 <nigel> ... The aspect ratio part is not necessarily tightly related to intrinsic dimensions.
10:32:26 <nigel> gregwhitworth: That said if it does have an intrinsic aspect ratio then it should be used.
10:32:39 <nigel> ... you need to decide whether to care about that and then meet height or width constraints.
10:32:51 <nigel> ... We already have this problem with video and players.
10:33:03 <nigel> ack cyril
10:33:19 <nigel> cyril: I agree that it would be good to preserve aspect ratio of divs and other things not just images. But
10:33:39 <nigel> ... I understood the responsive images solutions were in HTML so that CSS is not needed to make requests,
10:33:45 <nigel> ... so how does it work if you solve it in CSS.
10:33:58 <nigel> yoav: The responsive images syntax allows the width of the resource to be defined then you don't need the
10:34:03 <jkt> https://jonathankingston.github.io/logical-sizing-properties/demo/ << is a demo of the above proposal, if anyone has not seen that (it uses an image but I didn't initially)
10:34:11 <nigel> ... height from the aspect ratio until layout actually happens. So you can start your request just based on
10:34:24 <nigel> ... the width info and maybe in the future height as well. We reserved this part for v2 of the spec.
10:34:42 <nigel> ... You should be able to load the resource based on one of those dimensions.
10:34:55 <nigel> ... I'm assuming all the resources in the srcset have the same aspect ratio.
10:35:11 <nigel> zcorpan: We're trying to solve the problem of jumpy layout during page load. When the page starts to render
10:35:35 <nigel> ... at that point the stylesheets are loaded so you could make the request before layout.
10:36:00 <nigel> ... You can load the image knowing the layout before having the image. I still think it would be nice to have
10:36:10 <dbaron> present+
10:36:19 <nigel> zcorpan:  an attribute or something in HTML because when a CMS drops an image into a document they may
10:36:25 <nigel> ... not want to change the markup.
10:36:43 <nigel> yoav: It's easier to verify and therefore some performance projects are using HTML.
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10:36:50 <zcorpan> q?
10:37:14 <nigel> dsinger: MPEG recently standardised a new image file format that may be related. It's codec neutral.
10:37:28 <nigel> ... The concern was about expressing how to package an image collection together and specifying which
10:37:51 <nigel> ... to use for printing, or non destructive edits etc. This is called the High Efficiency Image File Format.
10:38:07 <nigel> ... This could be related to the same use case.
10:38:33 <zcorpan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format
10:38:54 <nigel> yoav: That's extremely interesting. Does it say in the headers the different image resolutions?
10:38:56 <cyril> https://github.com/nokiatech/heif
10:38:56 <nigel> dsinger: Yes.
10:39:15 <nigel> gregwhitworth: That's awesome
10:39:41 <nigel> dsinger: Images are stored mp4 style with a structure at the beginning with byte range offsets etc. and you
10:39:55 <cyril> you can inspect examle images with http://download.tsi.telecom-paristech.fr/gpac/mp4box.js/filereader.html
10:40:03 <nigel> dsinger:  could put mp4 tracks in the same file if you wanted. You would want to profile it down for some scenarios.
10:40:24 <nigel> yoav: Can you have low and higher resolutions compounded with scalable coding? And cropping?
10:40:27 <nigel> dsinger: Yes to both.
10:40:37 <nigel> cyril: I have examples of scalable in all directions.
10:40:48 <zcorpan> s/all/art/
10:40:59 <cyril> s/in all directions/and art directions/
10:40:59 <nigel> gregwhitworth: Have you spoken with browser vendors and about OS support etc?
10:41:12 <nigel> dsinger: Not yet but I'm happy to do tutorials and chat more with people.
10:41:58 <nigel> Action: gregwhitworth Get use case data on basic elements that would need to preserve aspect ratio
10:41:58 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
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10:42:19 <nigel> ACTION: yoav Get the loading use case
10:42:19 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
10:42:52 <nigel> scribenick: gregwhitworth
10:42:58 <gregwhitworth> topic: h descriptor
10:43:03 <gregwhitworth> scribenick: gregwhitworth
10:43:18 <gregwhitworth> yoav: currently you can't state the height via height restrictions
10:43:25 <gregwhitworth> ... the current syntax doesn't allow this
10:43:34 <gregwhitworth> ... do we want to discuss the various options we had
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10:43:54 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: I think the syntax is not the important part, but we need to figure out what people are trying to do with height based images
10:43:59 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: we need usecases
10:44:14 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: once we understand that we can get a syntax
10:44:15 <nigel> q+ to ask about separating box from resource aspect ratios
10:44:31 <gregwhitworth> action zcorpan with the getting height restricted use cases
10:44:31 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
10:44:58 <gregwhitworth> ???: you mentioned earlier about the video player
10:45:13 <gregwhitworth> ... the player can have one size, and the video that's playing might have a different aspect ratio
10:45:22 <gregwhitworth> ... so you need to know the reference area
10:45:40 <gregwhitworth> ... specifiying a box with an AR and then positioning a box inside of that
10:46:01 <gregwhitworth> ... you all remember 4:3 tv and you are watching a 16:9 video, do you scale or do you center cut
10:46:24 <gregwhitworth> ... one you're preserving the AR but you're cropping it
10:46:38 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: there is a property in CSS called object-fit where you can control this
10:46:51 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: the default for video is object-fit: contain
10:47:04 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: and images are set to preserve AR
10:47:27 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: however there is no way of knowing how big the rendered image is if you preserve AR
10:47:32 <gregwhitworth> ... nah, you could...
10:47:45 <gregwhitworth> ... there are properties to get the width/height of the resource once it's loaded
10:47:51 <gregwhitworth> ... you do know the size of it
10:48:19 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: you can render things on top of it, but you would need to use other things than CSS to accomplish it
10:48:30 <cyril> s/???/nigel/
10:49:00 <gregwhitworth> nigel: that's interesting. That's the point of it, we need to work out what area you have. Sure, I guess we can do that in JS, but it may be worth looking into whether we want to somehow solve that before loading
10:49:11 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: anything else
10:49:21 <nigel> q-
10:49:38 <nigel> s/action zc/Action: zc
10:49:41 <gregwhitworth> yoav: what level of effort do you want
10:49:45 <gregwhitworth> ... to help out
10:49:58 <gregwhitworth> jkt: I'm willing to look into getting use cases as well
10:50:14 <gregwhitworth> jkt: other than that, I can work with the syntax but that's not something we need to do early on
10:50:18 <gregwhitworth> yoav: cool
10:50:26 <zcorpan> 👍
10:51:03 <gregwhitworth> cyril: what's the responsiveness in the video element
10:51:14 <nigel> rrsagent, make logs public
10:51:18 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
10:51:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-minutes.html nigel
10:51:34 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: it's in there, but implementers aren't jumping for it, and haven't gotten a lot of feedback from devs for it either
10:51:46 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: you can put a high res in for a poster
10:52:07 <gregwhitworth> yoav: do you see a use case for an art directed poster
10:52:15 <gregwhitworth> cyril: could you put picture inside as the poster?
10:52:45 <gregwhitworth> cyril: any reason why the video element is not able to play images
10:53:09 <gregwhitworth> yoav: I would ask the opposite question, why can't you play the video in the image?
10:53:25 <yoav> An early prototype I wrote down in 2013 for something like HEIF: https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/09/responsive-image-container/
10:53:32 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: on a theoretical level, it's possible but on an architectural level it's hard
10:53:35 <yoav> ^^ dsinger cyril
10:53:42 <nigel> Meeting: Responsive Images breakout session TPAC 2016
10:54:17 <gregwhitworth> zcorpan: there is an interest I believe
10:54:28 <nigel> rrsagent, generate minutes
10:54:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-minutes.html nigel
10:54:39 <gregwhitworth> yoav: animated gifs are a good use case, we should get rid of this
10:55:09 <gregwhitworth> ???: one thing that struck me is that this may be a problem for a11y if you put a video inside of image
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10:55:29 <gregwhitworth> ???/kirkwood
10:55:36 <nigel> s|s/in all directions/and art directions/|
10:57:06 <nigel> present+ dsinger, cyril, yoav, kirkwood, dbaron, jihye, SteveZ
10:57:21 <nigel> rrsagent, generate minutes
10:57:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-minutes.html nigel
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15:48:53 <innovati> Looks like I missed a party in here :D
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