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13:07:25 <wseltzer> present+ aleecia, matthias_matthiesen, nataliia_bielova, rvaneijk, wseltzer, barryleiba, dsinger, moneill2_
13:07:43 <wseltzer> schunter: Background
13:07:56 <wseltzer> ... we published 2 CRs, TPE and TCS
13:08:12 <wseltzer> ... TPE: If you're browsing the web, you can tell your browser to send signals about your tracking preference
13:08:16 <JoeHallCDT1> JoeHallCDT1 has joined #dnt
13:08:16 <wseltzer> ... that's the easy part
13:08:32 <wseltzer> ... controversy: if a site receives "I don't want to be tracked," what should they do?
13:08:39 <wseltzer> ... most sites today do nothing
13:08:48 <wseltzer> ... status: we're at CR, waiting for implementations and use cases
13:09:06 <wseltzer> [slide: TPE]
13:09:40 <rvaneijk> Can someone please send a link to the slides in irc?
13:09:41 <wseltzer> schunter: the DNT header and the Tracking Status Object
13:10:47 <wseltzer> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2016Sep/att-0015/W3C-TPAC-TPWG-Breakout-Intro-v03.pptx Matthias's slides
13:11:05 <wseltzer> [slide: User-granted exceptions]
13:11:19 <wseltzer> wseltzer has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2016Sep/att-0015/W3C-TPAC-TPWG-Breakout-Intro-v03.pptx Matthias's slides
13:11:54 <wseltzer> schunter: negotiation, we discussed in the WG that this negotiation can be used in the European context
13:12:02 <wseltzer> ... for consent to cookies, stored in the browser
13:12:20 <wseltzer> ... so when I revisit a site, my preferences can be recalled
13:12:30 <wseltzer> ... site-wide or web-wide excptions
13:12:48 <wseltzer> ... moneill2_ will tell you a bit about how it works in practice
13:12:57 <wseltzer> ... vincent_ will talk about regulatory context
13:13:16 <wseltzer> schunter: other document, little uptake, is Compliance spec
13:13:19 <wseltzer> ... that's not interesting
13:13:38 <wseltzer> ... Implementation uptake: signal is supported in most browsers
13:13:47 <wseltzer> ... most sites ignore the signal
13:14:52 <wseltzer> Topic: Demo
13:15:11 <wseltzer> moneill2_: edge doesn't have the API, IE did
13:15:54 <wseltzer> moneill2_: I'll show you a test page
13:16:02 <wseltzer> https://baycloud.com/dntapi
13:16:44 <wseltzer> moneill2_: bouncer lets you grant or block behaviors, expires cookies
13:17:22 <wseltzer> https://baycloud.com/bouncerDownload
13:18:19 <wseltzer> moneill2_: you can consent, revoke
13:20:03 <wseltzer> present+ dka, cargill, Axel, frankwagner, francois, JimBell, JoeHallCDT, mkwest, jeff, DanDruta, marta
13:20:35 <jeff> jeff has joined #dnt
13:20:35 <wseltzer> moneill2_: this plugin gives transparency as well as user control
13:20:52 <wseltzer> ... showing you the trackers, letting you consent per-site
13:21:51 <wseltzer> schunter: Consent registration is the main point
13:22:05 <wseltzer> ... saying "please change your mind" to the customer, and recording that consent
13:22:09 <rvaneijk> The Tracking Status Resource (TSR) is an essential element in terms of the mandatory information requirement in the EU legal framework
13:22:19 <wseltzer> ... to let us move away from cookie banners
13:22:36 <wseltzer> Topic: Regulatory Context
13:23:34 <wseltzer> schunter: Vincent will give us a quick overview of the European regulatory landscape
13:23:59 <wseltzer> ... initial impetus to the WG came from EU Commission and US FTC, saying please do something
13:24:10 <wseltzer> ... now their regulations are increasing
13:24:39 <wseltzer> Cargill: while this was underway, we had Snowden's PRISM disclosures that took some attention away from consumer tracking
13:24:50 <wseltzer> ... but consumer regulation might be coming back to attention
13:24:58 <wseltzer> ... we want approach to be based in science
13:25:07 <wseltzer> ... this group had a good technical approach.
13:25:28 <wseltzer> present+ Benedikt, Chad
13:25:49 <wseltzer> schunter: it's not an accident that we're aligned with Europe; we were talking about the problem and to regulators
13:25:58 <wseltzer> vincent_: current status in EU
13:26:18 <wseltzer> ... Data Protetion Directive and ePrivacy Directive
13:26:31 <wseltzer> ... as directives, they must be adapted to 28 countries
13:26:52 <wseltzer> ... vary. Some countries think cookie IDs is "personal data"
13:26:57 <wseltzer> ... others "PII"
13:27:11 <wseltzer> ... different ideas of consent
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13:27:29 <wseltzer> ... e.g. in France, users must interact with web page to consent to cookie being set on browser
13:27:39 <wseltzer> ... to try to harmonize regulation, art 29 published opinions
13:27:52 <wseltzer> ... art 29 = group of 28 DPAs in Europe
13:28:05 <wseltzer> ... differences = why we need a regulation
13:28:17 <wseltzer> ... May 2016, GDPR. Will be fully applicable May 2018
13:28:25 <rvaneijk> artikel 29 of EU Directive 96/46/EC "establishes" the working group.
13:28:32 <wseltzer> ... a Reg, not a Directive, means same text applies in 28 countries
13:28:54 <wseltzer> ... new: persona data definition includes "online identifiers" indlucing cookie ids
13:29:06 <wseltzer> ... you need consent to collect and process data
13:29:31 <wseltzer> ... several legal bases, of which consent and "legitimate interests" are most important
13:29:49 <wseltzer> ... 2009 ePrivacy vs GDPR
13:30:02 <wseltzer> ... GDPR recital 32
13:30:19 <wseltzer> [[(32) Consent should be given by a clear affirmative act establishing a freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject's agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her, such as by a written statement, including by electronic means, or an oral statement. This could include ticking a box when visiting an internet website, choosing technical settings for information society services or another statement ...
13:30:25 <wseltzer> ... or conduct which clearly indicates in this context the data subject's acceptance of the proposed processing of his or her personal data. Silence, pre-ticked boxes or inactivity should not therefore constitute consent. Consent should cover all processing activities carried out for the same purpose or purposes. When the processing has multiple purposes, consent should be given for all of them. If the data subject's consent is to be given following a ...
13:30:31 <wseltzer> ... request by electronic means, the request must be clear, concise and not unnecessarily disruptive to the use of the service for which it is provided.
13:30:34 <wseltzer> ]]
13:30:53 <wseltzer> [highlighted: ilence, pre-ticked boxes or inactivity should not therefore  constitute consent.
13:31:00 <wseltzer> s/ilence/silence/
13:31:20 <rvaneijk> REGULATION (EU) 2016/67 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32016R0679&from=EN
13:31:26 <wseltzer> schunter: under this reg, you need explicit choice; so you have to click the cookie banner each time
13:31:49 <wseltzer> schunter: or use technical means
13:32:04 <wseltzer> vincent: and right to revoke
13:32:17 <wseltzer> ... legitimate interest and right to object (art 21)
13:33:16 <wseltzer> [[Art 21. 5.   In the context of the use of information society services, and notwithstanding Directive 2002/58/EC, the data subject may exercise his or her right to object by automated means using technical specifications.
13:33:20 <wseltzer> ]]
13:33:40 <wseltzer> Cargill: can you object at any time?
13:33:49 <wseltzer> ... e.g. way down-stream?
13:33:52 <wseltzer> vincent: yes
13:33:59 <wseltzer> moneill: and it should be erased
13:34:10 <wseltzer> vincent: objection might be through automated means
13:34:23 <JoeHallCDT1> dsinger (off-mic): how does the user object?
13:34:24 <wseltzer> schunter: if you change DNT:0 to DNT:1 something has to happen
13:35:00 <fwagner> +q
13:35:18 <wseltzer> matthias_matthiesen: IAB Europe. If user objects at any time, does that include after processing has commenced, or just before it starts?
13:35:35 <wseltzer> Cargill: if halfway through processing, user objects, do you need to retract?
13:35:40 <wseltzer> vincent: yes
13:35:52 <wseltzer> schunter: there are reasonable limits, but you shoudl be able to withdraw consent
13:36:05 <JoeHallCDT> note that Jonas' sensemaking systems at IBM can redo past inferences once data is removed… not that everyone should go buy that stuff, but that is one technical accomodation to rescinding of processing consent
13:36:16 <wseltzer> fwagner: another side condition for consent - ti needs transparent information. without context you cannot give consent.
13:36:29 <wseltzer> "machine unlearning"
13:36:35 <JoeHallCDT> :)
13:36:44 <wseltzer> schunter: If I revoke consent, at least tracking has to stop
13:36:48 <wseltzer> s/ti/it/
13:37:28 <wseltzer> vincent: ePrivacy review
13:37:47 <wseltzer> ... could result in a directive or regulation
13:38:11 <wseltzer> ... could rely on DNT.  coherent with previous directive
13:38:19 <wseltzer> ... DPAs support DNT
13:38:34 <wseltzer> ... could be used to obtain consent, not just object
13:38:49 <wseltzer> [slide with lots of text]
13:39:10 <wseltzer> [European Data Protection Supervisor; Article 29]
13:39:29 <rvaneijk> Slides Vincent: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2016Sep/att-0016/Slides_DNT-v4.pdf
13:40:04 <wseltzer> Topic: Discussion
13:40:14 <wseltzer> schunter: at least as of 2018, DNT will be useful
13:40:16 <JoeHallCDT> also note that some providers have created pretty neat dynamic tracking code exclusion based on DNT:1: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2015Oct/0007.html
13:40:18 <wseltzer> ... what do we do next
13:41:04 <wseltzer> fwagner: can you give us an indication whether DNT is compliant with European law
13:41:14 <rvaneijk> Chapter 10 of the GDPR grants the Commission the power to adopt delegated acts (as referred to in Article 12(8) in respect of standardised icons and in Article 43(8) in respect of certification mechanisms).
13:41:16 <wseltzer> vincent: I don't know if there's one technical means we can say
13:41:48 <wseltzer> schunter: regulators unlikely to say that DNT is only means, but could say DNT is a likely viable solution
13:42:12 <wseltzer> fwagner: if I go to DPA and say I intend to use DNT in this way, can I get an answer that I'll be safe?
13:42:32 <wseltzer> vincent: that DPAs are pushing for DNT in ePrivacy review is indication that it could comply
13:42:44 <JoeHallCDT> @rvaneijk are you saying that the EC could mandate some sort of machine-readable transmission of data practices? that seems to be a subset of DNT, now, I would think
13:42:46 <wseltzer> schunter: DPs operate indpeendently
13:42:57 <wseltzer> fwagner: GDPR is one-stop shop principel
13:43:12 <wseltzer> s/principel/principle/
13:43:30 <wseltzer> aleecia: art29 WP has weighed in formally on prior drafts
13:43:40 <wseltzer> ... we've gotten 2 rounds of guidance
13:43:54 <wseltzer> ... I think companies in Europe will be able to get guidance
13:44:03 <rvaneijk> @JoeJallCDT Yes that is possible, but another route may be a decision through the data protection board.
13:44:04 <wseltzer> ... In US, DNT is considered as opt-out
13:44:19 <JoeHallCDT> ah, ty, @rvaneijk
13:44:22 <wseltzer> ... In Europe, users must consent else they must not be tracked
13:44:45 <wseltzer> ... W3C documents allow DNT to be viable under European law.
13:44:51 <wseltzer> q+
13:44:55 <wseltzer> ack fw
13:45:27 <wseltzer> schunter: get companies interested, pilot, evaluate by companies and regulators
13:45:47 <wseltzer> ... CR would stay CR through implementation experience
13:46:48 <wseltzer> dka: I was curious
13:47:15 <wseltzer> ... good to see regulatory interst; we've also seen companies like Medium that have seen ways to use DNT in their user experience
13:47:31 <wseltzer> ... is anyone tracking the self-policing? can we provide positive feedback?
13:47:44 <wseltzer> ... seems fragmented. all the engergy is on blockers.
13:47:47 <JoeHallCDT> FPF maintains a list of DNT respecting sites: https://allaboutdnt.com/companies/
13:47:51 <rvaneijk> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/TPE_Implementation_Report
13:47:59 <wseltzer> moneill: there's a page on the wiki ^
13:48:29 <wseltzer> schunter: Google had done some anonymizing of users who had DNT set
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13:49:03 <wseltzer> dka: at Samsung, we have a browser, that currently does not have DNT
13:49:18 <wseltzer> ... I want to push it back to the engineering team; would like to have the argumentation to do it.
13:49:25 <rvaneijk> Samsung should consider to implement the JavaScript API :)
13:49:47 <wseltzer> Cargill: vincent's last slide, there's no explicit reference to self-regulation
13:50:02 <JoeHallCDT> @rvaneijk, meaning that instead of just a dumb DNT:[1,0] setting, they should do the whole enchilada?
13:50:11 <wseltzer> ... "how difficult is it to add this now rather than being penalized for not having"
13:50:15 <JoeHallCDT> s/enchilada/thing/
13:50:29 <wseltzer> moneill: quite a few sites in Europe using.
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13:50:44 <JoeHallCDT> there some sites that actually block content loading based on DNT:1… not sure those are in the lists
13:50:51 <wseltzer> ... several thousand sites in Europe
13:50:55 <JoeHallCDT> q?
13:51:03 <dka> present+
13:51:21 <wseltzer> JimBell: seems to me that unless we take some action, we'll end up regulated in some jurisdictions
13:51:33 <wseltzer> ... suppliers declaration of conformance
13:51:51 <wseltzer> ... SVOC, VPATS (?)
13:52:10 <wseltzer> ... probably the only way we're going to avoid regulation
13:52:24 <JoeHallCDT> wseltzer: running down on time for the session...
13:52:33 <JoeHallCDT> … helpful to get the state of internal/external affairs
13:52:40 <JoeHallCDT> … question to w3c membership:
13:52:46 <JoeHallCDT> … what do you want us to do?
13:52:50 <fwagner> q+
13:52:50 <JoeHallCDT> … what should be next
13:52:56 <JoeHallCDT> ack wseltzer
13:53:10 <JoeHallCDT> … working on a charter extesion so that we can work on what to do next
13:53:40 <JoeHallCDT> … we can allow the charter to lapse while maintaining CRs, will return later when we have indications of moving forward next steps to PR and imp. reports, testing usage
13:53:43 <JoeHallCDT> … we could re-charter
13:53:58 <JoeHallCDT> … under process, we need expression of support, and meet the conditions in the process
13:54:05 <JoeHallCDT> … and assure members we have a plan of a path forward
13:54:12 <JoeHallCDT> … we know how we are going to get from CR to PR
13:54:29 <JoeHallCDT> … Felipe in new role as w3c PM will insist that we have clear deliverables and milestones
13:54:38 <JoeHallCDT> schunter: working groups should work
13:54:48 <wseltzer> s/Felipe/Philippe/
13:54:48 <JoeHallCDT> … if we have a plan of what to do and support, we go forward
13:54:53 <JoeHallCDT> … if we do not, we will not
13:55:08 <JoeHallCDT> dka: what's stopping movement to PR?
13:55:16 <JoeHallCDT> … focusing on getting stuff to rec?
13:55:20 <JoeHallCDT> … waiting on imps?
13:55:27 <JoeHallCDT> … there are a few of them, why wait?
13:55:44 <JoeHallCDT> … getting something out there quickly would be much better
13:55:53 <JoeHallCDT> … then when the reg. is out, we decide what to do now
13:56:02 <JoeHallCDT> schunter: this is my evening job, I have a daytime job
13:56:11 <JoeHallCDT> … don't want to just create a document that only sits on a shelf
13:56:14 <JoeHallCDT> q?
13:56:26 <JoeHallCDT> dka: would point to SVG as an example
13:56:31 <JoeHallCDT> … was pushed out, considered dead
13:56:40 <JoeHallCDT> … and now is ubiquitous
13:57:06 <JoeHallCDT> fwagner: one possible way forward is to do a model implementation
13:57:19 <JoeHallCDT> … creating transparency for the users, working with EU regs
13:57:29 <wseltzer> i/wseltzer: running/scribenick: JoeHallCDT
13:57:45 <JoeHallCDT> … from my perspective, theres [?]
13:57:54 <JoeHallCDT> ack fwagner
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13:58:08 <JoeHallCDT> ???: represent RT, aware of GDPR
13:58:24 <wseltzer> s/???/Benedikt/
13:58:24 <JoeHallCDT> … DNT is attractive because we can actually talk to regulators about this
13:58:32 <wseltzer> s/RT/Thomson Reuters/
13:58:37 <JoeHallCDT> … this is something we'd like to stay on the front of
13:58:43 <JoeHallCDT> … (vote for re-charter)
13:59:01 <JoeHallCDT> aleecia: Dan, we had a call where Jaffe agreed that we had enough imps to move forward
13:59:07 <JoeHallCDT> … could promote doc as it is now
13:59:20 <JoeHallCDT> … criteria for CR->PR have been fulfilled
13:59:24 <JoeHallCDT> … but still not enough
13:59:45 <JoeHallCDT> … Jaffe agrees go straight to PR
13:59:57 <JoeHallCDT> … agree with that, we'll have a document to work with when a crisis point comes
14:00:01 <dsinger> q+ to talk about the API
14:00:09 <JoeHallCDT> … if it's still bottled up in committee, it will be harder to get it done
14:00:30 <JoeHallCDT> … I see no policy or w3c impediment to putting the PR out there right now
14:00:37 <JoeHallCDT> Jaffe: to clarify:
14:00:43 <JoeHallCDT> …there are two issues:
14:00:49 <dka> +1 to putting the PR out there.
14:00:49 <JoeHallCDT> … one is process, one is judgement
14:01:02 <JoeHallCDT> … might have said from a formal process view that when we have 2 imps, move forward
14:01:25 <JoeHallCDT> … also said there's a judgment call that there needs to be consensus from WG that there needs to be sufficient imp experience
14:01:46 <JoeHallCDT> … on the side of servers actually honoring what UAs request, there is work to do
14:02:01 <JoeHallCDT> schunter: we can jump through w3c hoops, but it's judgement and energy now
14:02:07 <JoeHallCDT> … a WG that consists of only chairs is boring
14:02:14 <JoeHallCDT> … can we get support
14:02:30 <dka> q?
14:02:31 <dka> q+
14:02:32 <JoeHallCDT> … e.g., a company saying, we've implemented on a couple hundred sites
14:02:35 <JoeHallCDT> q?
14:03:02 <JoeHallCDT> dsigner: we could push it out… part of the spec we'd need to remove is the exception calls
14:03:09 <JoeHallCDT> … not enough server-side demand for that
14:03:13 <JoeHallCDT> … rest could be pushed out
14:03:17 <JoeHallCDT> ack dsing
14:03:17 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to talk about the API
14:03:30 <JoeHallCDT> dka: would be better to get it out there
14:03:45 <JoeHallCDT> … then the energy could be put into helping implementers and getting more of them
14:04:05 <JoeHallCDT> schunter: tomorrow we have a WG meeting
14:04:20 <JoeHallCDT> … important to know who in the room can join us in terms of implementation
14:04:30 <JoeHallCDT> … based on who wants to join compliance validation in EU
14:04:38 <JoeHallCDT> … we can decide to recharter for 6 months
14:04:45 <wseltzer> present+ Frode, Glenn
14:04:53 <JoeHallCDT> … what slices of spec to push out when is a secondary consideration
14:05:01 <JoeHallCDT> q?
14:05:04 <JoeHallCDT> ack dka
14:05:22 <JoeHallCDT> wseltzer: this is not a formal WG meeting
14:05:35 <JoeHallCDT> … so can't take decisions, can get a sense of what people want to do
14:05:50 <JoeHallCDT> … from w3c Team perspective, want a very clear sense of what we want to do when extending charter
14:06:11 <JoeHallCDT> dsinger: don't see a practical difference between rechartering and not
14:06:25 <JoeHallCDT> schunter: if you don't have a charter, you don't exist
14:06:44 <JoeHallCDT> … to do active experiment studies need a charter
14:07:13 <frodek> frodek has joined #dnt
14:07:15 <JoeHallCDT> Fellipe: difficult for me to judge having just walked in the room
14:07:38 <JoeHallCDT> … the charter will need to show that you can be successful
14:07:41 <wseltzer> s/Felipe/Philippe/G
14:08:03 <JoeHallCDT> cargill: if we get a reference imp. acceptable to EU regulators, then we have something to go with
14:08:13 <JoeHallCDT> … if we get an imp and EU regulators say no, that's failure
14:08:20 <JoeHallCDT> schunter: way forward is clear…
14:08:28 <JoeHallCDT> … found new people interested in this work
14:08:32 <mkwst> mkwst has joined #dnt
14:08:44 <JoeHallCDT> … will take it to the WG and see what folks think about rechartering
14:08:55 <JoeHallCDT> .. morphs the group from a US marketing group to a EU compliance group
14:09:04 <JoeHallCDT> .. thanks everyone!
14:09:12 <JoeHallCDT> … any other stuff you want to know, ping schunter
14:09:16 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make minutes
14:09:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-dnt-minutes.html wseltzer
14:09:21 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make logs publis
14:09:23 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make logs public
14:09:29 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make minutes
14:09:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-dnt-minutes.html wseltzer
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14:24:02 <adrianba> s/Fellipe/Philippe/G
14:24:32 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-dnt-minutes.html adrianba
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15:23:14 <adrianba> Meeting: TPAC TPWG Breakout
15:23:15 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:23:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-dnt-minutes.html adrianba
15:24:32 <adrianba> i/schunter: Background/scribe: wseltzer/
15:24:46 <adrianba> chair: schunter
15:24:48 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:24:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-dnt-minutes.html adrianba
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