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10:07:29 <jeanne> Meeting: Accessibility Object Model
10:07:29 <patrick_h_lauke_> patrick_h_lauke_ has joined #aom
10:07:36 <jeanne> chair: James Craig
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10:08:36 <jeanne> also contributing Alice Boxhall, Dominic Mazzili and @@@ from Google
10:08:47 <jeanne> [reviews agenda]
10:09:21 <jeanne> History, Common PRoblens, code samples, Scoping considerations, Audience, and Development plan
10:09:28 <jeanne> Topic: History
10:10:17 <jeanne> Intentional Events, Canvas Sub-DOM, Apple: UI Independence (spawned IndieUI) and Accessibile RTE
10:10:37 <jeanne> ... which has all been abandoned
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10:11:06 <jeanne> ... Google chrome. automation which is a view of Accessibility tree API extension
10:11:43 <aboxhall> Mozilla a11yapi: https://github.com/WICG/a11yapi
10:11:43 <jeanne> ... Mozilla proposed A11y API proposal, Microsoft - WAPA proposal
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10:12:06 <jeanne> ... 2016 - Offline vendor discussions leading to the WICG incubation AOM effort
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10:12:31 <aboxhall> WAPA: https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
10:12:39 <jeanne> ... Domenic sent this prooposal to send to WICG
10:12:45 <aboxhall> chrome.automation: https://developer.chrome.com/extensions/automation
10:12:47 <jeanne> Topic: Common Problems
10:13:11 <jeanne> DOM manipulation has poor performance with ARIA in large datasets
10:13:45 <jeanne> ... reliance on IDREF prevents some usage - want to use element refs instead of idrefs
10:14:05 <jeanne> ... No way to receive accessibility vents, e.g. increment a custom slider
10:14:48 <jeanne> ... some complex office suites are challenging to make accessbile through standard techniques of POSH + ARIA
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10:15:17 <jeanne> ... Bonus: Accessibility Inspection and Testing
10:15:27 <jeanne> Topic: Example
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10:15:40 <jeanne> Standrd Assitive Technology Interaction
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10:16:21 <jeanne> [describes diagram - application -> Accessibility tree -> assistive technology -> user
10:17:11 <jeanne> ... the application refreshes a button on the accessibility tree, which passes role to the assistive technology which passes the role "button" to the user.
10:18:01 <jeanne> ... the user presses the "button" (independent event) which passes it back to the accessibility tree which translates it to a click to the application
10:18:11 <jeanne> Next Slide diagram
10:19:46 <jeanne> ... application sends "role=slide" to the accessibility tree which passes it to the assitive technology which gives it to the user.  The user increases the sliderto 50%, passes it the assitive technology to the accessibility tree.   The tree fails in giving it back to the application. That problem is where the AOM needs to live.
10:20:40 <jeanne> Doug: Question: Why doesn't ARIA role=slider work?
10:21:45 <patrick_h_lauke_> for context, SteveF and I (plus some help from others) made a first attempt ages ago to document ARIA patterns that fall apart on touch+AT scenarios https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gN9oRZPdrJxLDNtT6nVO4fn7E7sn1061L9Xl3__slZ4/edit
10:22:01 <patrick_h_lauke_> and this is exactly the problem outlined here with the "faked" ARIA slider
10:22:20 <jeanne> James: This is something we tried to bring into INdieUI, and I think the scope was too broad.
10:22:35 <patrick_h_lauke_> tl;dr: even if custom controls follow EXACTLY the patterns for kbd usage outlined in ARIA, they will be completely inaccessible for touch+AT scenarios
10:22:49 <patrick_h_lauke_> due to the assumption that keyboard listeners will be enough
10:22:59 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:22:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html clapierre
10:23:16 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
10:23:21 <alastairc> patrick_h_lauke_ is there a place where this is being worked on?
10:23:28 <clapierre> present+ George_Kerscher
10:23:32 <jeanne> Matt King: The patterns we are creating for ARIA widgets, that process keypress for accessibility
10:23:53 <jeanne> James: WE aren't all the way there yet.
10:23:53 <clapierre> rrsagent, make logs public
10:24:06 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:24:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html clapierre
10:24:19 <jeanne> ... Alice will talk about more examples
10:24:24 <patrick_h_lauke_> so for keyboard (without AT) authors will still have to do key handling, and then for AT usage AOM will provide more input-agnostic event handling
10:24:29 <jeanne> Alice:
10:24:37 <clapierre> present+ Avneesh_Singh
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10:25:55 <jeanne> ... [shows code for an example of an autocomplete list]
10:26:31 <patrick_h_lauke> el.accessibleNode.labelledBy = [el1]
10:26:34 <jeanne> ... el.accessibileNode.labelledBy=[el1];
10:26:49 <patrick_h_lauke> const input = combobox.shadowRoot.querySelector("input")
10:27:07 <patrick_h_lauke> const optionList = comboBox.querySelector("custom-optionlist");
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10:27:24 <patrick_h_lauke> input.accessibleNode.activeDescendant = optionList;
10:27:25 <jeanne> James: labelledBy is an ARIA property, there is no attempt to override ARIA, just to use it in javascript.
10:27:39 <JohnJansen> present+ JohnJansen
10:28:06 <jeanne> ... none of the smaples being proposed are possible today
10:29:06 <jeanne> Wilco: Could you insert an ID so you change it later?
10:29:27 <jeanne> James: Use the ARIA DOM manipulation thatwe have today
10:29:52 <jeanne> ... this extends the existing ARIA -- this is not for most developers
10:30:12 <jeanne> Rich:  You are going to have two trees, isn't this going to cause problems
10:30:38 <jeanne> Brian: As a developer, there are two trees.  Having something that explains it is better than magic that we have no insight into it.
10:31:04 <jeanne> s/cause problems/cause problems?
10:31:24 <jeanne> Alice: WE are trying to keep this tightly scoped so we can ship something as quickly as possible.
10:31:34 <jeanne> ... readily implementable
10:31:48 <jeanne> ... must to expose user details (privacy)
10:32:02 <jeanne> ... must not negatively affect performance
10:32:20 <jeanne> ... must be easy to author, but it is not for all authors.
10:32:28 <jeanne> Topic: Audience for AOM
10:32:36 <jeanne> Primarily for experts
10:32:41 <jeanne> ... frameworks enggineers
10:32:48 <jeanne> ... web component authors
10:32:56 <jeanne> ... Doc suite developers
10:33:24 <jeanne> ... JS-expert Accessibility experts
10:33:41 <jeanne> TOpic: Tightly Scoped Developments
10:33:55 <jeanne> 1) Modifying Accesible Propoerties
10:34:05 <jeanne> 2) Accessible Actions and events
10:34:30 <jeanne> 3) Virtual accessibility nodes (e.g. canvas, WebGL)
10:35:12 <jeanne> 4) Introspection of the Fully Computed Accessibility Tree.  Need to very careful for performance
10:35:37 <jeanne> Dominic:  To be able to set a property and not read it back is a new condition on the web.
10:36:07 <jeanne> @@@: gives example of when it has been done before
10:36:34 <jeanne> Alice: Style and Computed Style is a g ood example
10:36:57 <jeanne> Dominic: How does stage 2 work?
10:37:28 <jeanne> Alice: It's a issue, it requires consent
10:38:15 <jeanne> James: If you had an example of a slider, it would have it own @@ and the average user would not receive the event.
10:39:06 <jeanne> ... and example is location services.  Most developers will set up an opt-in process, and I anticipate that is the way it could work
10:39:35 <jeanne> github.com/a11y-api
10:39:49 <jeanne> ... It will move to WICG soon.
10:40:08 <aboxhall> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/contributing-the-accessibility-object-model-specification/1702
10:40:19 <jeanne> Lisa: This is giving developing developers direct access to the accessibility tree
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10:40:28 <jeanne> James: IN phase 4.  Maybe
10:41:03 <jeanne> Lisa: there is a fuzzy area between assistive techology and the app
10:41:37 <jeanne> ... example, people will still use HTML scraping instead of this tecchnology
10:41:54 <jeanne> James: In phase 4 people may be able to do that.
10:42:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
10:42:31 <jeanne> James: This is not the platform tree, it is a browser tree.  Windows, Mac and iOS all use different technologies
10:42:36 <patrick_h_lauke> q+
10:42:41 <frremy> q+
10:42:41 <Wilco> q+
10:42:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+ doug
10:42:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
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10:43:01 <patrick_h_lauke> q+
10:43:12 <boazsender> q+
10:43:31 <jeanne> Jesse: Ifk you take away the assistive tech, we still need to make it keyboard accessible.  If we mix accessible events into this mix, we aren't getting extra benefit for getting @@
10:44:48 <patrick_h_lauke> Jesse: seems like there a re two proposals: access to accessibility tree, and accessibility events
10:44:52 <jeanne> Jesse: There are two things happening.  Accessible events that can be listed to.
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10:45:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
10:45:05 <dcooney> q+
10:45:09 <frremy> q+ domenic
10:45:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+ doug
10:45:44 <jeanne> Matt: Mousedown and mouse events -- that should still work.  Nothing breaks, nothing changes (knock wood)
10:45:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
10:46:15 <jeanne> ... the benefit is only for assistive technologies that do not use keyboard events to increment
10:46:33 <jeanne> ... [example]
10:47:05 <patrick_h_lauke> ...AOM doesn't add anything new for keyboard/desktop (with/without AT) users?
10:47:32 <patrick_h_lauke> as in these cases even with AT, key events are sent, and those are listened to (using example of custom slider)
10:47:33 <jeanne> James: On the desktop, there are other keyboard commands to increment and decrement sliders
10:47:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
10:47:49 <patrick_h_lauke> james: but on mobile + AT
10:47:52 <jeanne> zakim, close q
10:47:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close q', jeanne
10:48:03 <jeanne> zakim, close queue
10:48:03 <Zakim> ok, jeanne, the speaker queue is closed
10:48:12 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
10:48:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html jeanne
10:49:54 <jeanne> Domenic:  Make it as ergonomic as possible
10:50:38 <jeanne> James: @@  doesn't work in Web Components, WebGL
10:51:08 <JohnJansen> zakim, q?
10:51:08 <Zakim> I see patrick_h_lauke, boazsender, richardschwerdtfeger, dcooney, domenic, doug on the speaker queue
10:51:14 <jeanne> Doug: The popular ones will be the performing ones
10:52:11 <jeanne> Francois (MS): One propsal I see, in PHase 3.  The Accessibility Tree is not independent of the DOM tree, it is produced by the DOM  tree.  WHen you change the root, it has to be regenerated.
10:52:30 <jeanne> ... you cannot decide the tree will be generated by the browser.  It is something at risk
10:52:41 <JohnJansen> s/Francois/frremy
10:53:28 <jeanne> James: Here's the current thinking.  One of the things we would like (but may not get)  -- example of large data set of music, we want to say there if there were virtual nodes, it would be on the subDOM of a specific node.
10:53:50 <jeanne> ... it would come along with the DOM node, but would not mix children into the same parent.
10:54:15 <jeanne> Francois: that doesn't address @@@@
10:54:50 <dcooney> q-
10:55:02 <jeanne> Patrick: 1) excited about accessible action events - in IRC I put a link to documentation of the ARIA patterns and where they fail with touch events
10:55:03 <frremy> @@@@/the case where you want to have list-items directly as children of a list
10:55:53 <jeanne> James: Indie UI would have been nice
10:56:59 <jeanne> Patrick: Asking user permission and the comparison with Geolocation.  With Geolocation, hopefully it will still work.  If the user can say no with custom widgets, then they can't use the site.  It's like blackmail, if you tell us you are an AT user, then it can work.
10:57:33 <jeanne> James: I want developers to understand more about the assistive technologies
10:57:59 <patrick_h_lauke> q-
10:58:07 <jeanne> ... the understanding may allow us to make better generalized APIs in the future
10:58:21 <jeanne> Rich: Are you expecting to have more accessible nodes?
10:58:50 <jeanne> James: There could be, the way the tree is made right now.
10:59:06 <jeanne> Rich: ARe you planning to build another sub-tree? is there a way to make it more simple
10:59:56 <jeanne> James: a concern of all the implementers is performance.  accessibleNode is a property of element, and you are just reading/writing to it.
11:00:48 <jeanne> Alice: If kyou set a style and give invalid properties and it will be ignored.  This is the same, if you give it invalid properties, it will be ignored.
11:02:14 <patrick_h_lauke> bikeshedUI
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11:02:56 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:02:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html clapierre
11:04:42 <jcraig> TOPIC: Slide text content follows
11:04:50 <jcraig> Accessibility Object Model
11:04:58 <jcraig> James Craig Apple Accessibility
11:04:59 <jcraig> Alice Boxhall Google Chrome Accessibility
11:05:00 <jcraig> Dominic Mazzoni Google Chrome Accessibility
11:05:01 <jcraig> Alex Surkov Mozilla Accessibility
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11:05:54 <jcraig> Agenda
11:05:55 <jcraig> • History: previous proposals and vendor discussions
11:05:57 <jcraig> • Common problems for noticed by browser vendors
11:05:58 <jcraig> • Example problems and code samples
11:06:00 <jcraig> • Considerations for scoping
11:06:01 <jcraig> • Audience for this technology
11:06:02 <jcraig> • Tightly-scoped, phased development plan
11:06:03 <jcraig> • Q &A
11:06:15 <jcraig> History: Previous Attempts
11:06:15 <jcraig> • Intentional Events
11:06:17 <jcraig> • Canvas Sub-DOM: technically possible, but prohibitively tedious and expensive • Apple: UI Independence (spawned IndieUI) and Accessible RTE proposals
11:06:18 <jcraig> • Google chrome.automation Extension API
11:06:20 <jcraig> • Mozilla: A11y API proposal
11:06:21 <jcraig> • Microsoft: WAPA proposal
11:06:23 <jcraig> • 2016: Offline vendor discussions leading to WICG incubation AOM effort
11:06:24 <jcraig> Common Problems
11:06:26 <jcraig> • DOM manipulation requirement of ARIA can perform poorly with large datasets
11:06:27 <jcraig> • Reliance on in-document IDREF prevents some usage (e.g. Shadow DOM)
11:06:28 <jcraig> • No way to receive accessibility events (e.g. increment a custom slider)
11:06:29 <jcraig> • Some complex office suites (Google Docs, iWork for iCloud, etc) are challenging to make accessible through standard techniques: POSH+ARIA doesn't cut it.
11:06:30 <jcraig> • Bonus: Accessibility Inspection and Testing
11:06:33 <jcraig> Code Samples
11:06:34 <jcraig> el.accessibleNode.labelledBy = [el1];
11:06:36 <jcraig> const input = comboBox.shadowRoot.querySelector("input");
11:06:37 <jcraig> const optionList = comboBox.querySelector("custom-optionlist");
11:06:39 <jcraig> input.accessibleNode.activeDescendant = optionList;
11:06:40 <jcraig>  Considerations for Scoping
11:06:42 <jcraig> • Must be readily implementable
11:06:43 <jcraig> • Must not expose user details (privacy)
11:06:45 <jcraig> • Must not negatively affect performance • Must be easy to author *
11:06:46 <jcraig>  Audience for AOM
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12:13:48 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
12:13:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html jcraig
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12:31:58 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
12:31:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html jeanne
12:50:02 <jcraig> s/@@ doesn't work in Web Components/IDREF doesn't work across shadow root boundaries in Web Components/
12:54:27 <jcraig> present+ About_30_more_people
12:54:35 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
12:54:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html jcraig
12:55:25 <jcraig> present+ Alice_Boxhall
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13:16:37 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
13:16:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html jcraig
13:24:38 <jcraig> s/Dominic Mazzili and @@@ from Google/Dominic Mazzoni from Google, and Alex Surkov from Mozilla/
13:25:39 <jcraig> s/"role=slide"/"role=slider"/
13:26:54 <jcraig> s/also contributing Alice Boxhall,/along with my colleagues Alice Boxhall from Google,/
13:28:13 <jcraig> s/Domenic sent this prooposal to send to WICG/Dominic sent this prooposal to WICG yesterday/
13:29:39 <jcraig> s/Dominic: How does stage 2 work?/Domenic: How does stage 2 work?/
13:30:24 <jcraig> s/Standrd Assitive /Standard Assistive /
13:31:44 <jcraig> s/must to expose/must not inadvertently expose/
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13:32:34 <jcraig> s/enggineers/engineers/g
13:33:08 <jcraig> s/Doc suite developers/Doc suite developers (Google Docs, iWork for iCloud, etc)/
13:33:49 <jcraig> s/Dominic:/Domenic:/g
13:35:09 <jcraig> s/How does stage 2 work?/How does stage 2 (accessibility events) avoid exposing user details?/
13:36:45 <jcraig> s/It's a issue, it requires consent/It's a outstanding issue (TBD), it may likely require explicit user consent./
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16:49:48 <jcraig> RRSAgent, MAKE MINUTES
16:49:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-aom-minutes.html jcraig
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