06:45:27 RRSAgent has joined #wpwg 06:45:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-wpwg-irc 06:45:38 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 06:45:51 rrsagent, set logs member 06:45:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:45:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-wpwg-minutes.html manu 07:45:14 mountie has joined #wpwg 08:00:19 nick has joined #wpwg 08:01:07 pirouz has joined #wpwg 08:07:27 TPAC 2016 WPWG FTF 08:07:58 Kangchan has joined #wpwg 08:08:12 betehess has joined #wpwg 08:09:23 Jaewan has joined #wpwg 08:09:31 sam has joined #wpwg 08:09:33 rouslan has joined #wpwg 08:10:07 zkoch has joined #wpwg 08:10:15 present+ zkoch 08:10:22 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Meetings 08:10:22 present+ Ian 08:10:27 rrsagent, pointer? 08:10:27 See http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-wpwg-irc#T08-10-27 08:10:34 present+ nicks 08:10:35 rrsagent, minutes span midnight 08:10:35 I'm logging. I don't understand 'minutes span midnight', Ian. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:10:41 Max has joined #wpwg 08:10:42 dezell has joined #wpwg 08:10:54 lbolstad_ has joined #wpwg 08:10:57 JakeA_ has joined #wpwg 08:10:58 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 08:11:10 present+ wseltzer 08:11:12 Meeting: Web Payments WG TPAC Face-to-Face 08:11:17 burn has joined #wpwg 08:11:25 present+ Kangchan 08:11:29 topic: Introductions, prep 08:11:31 bensmith has joined #wpwg 08:11:36 MattS has joined #wpwg 08:11:41 present+ ShaneM 08:11:43 rouslan has joined #wpwg 08:11:50 present+ Rouslan 08:11:54 present+ betehess 08:11:56 agenda+ Dinner 08:11:59 shigeya_ has joined #wpwg 08:11:59 agenda? 08:12:03 present+ MattS 08:12:05 pirouz_ has joined #wpwg 08:12:08 zakim, clear the agenda 08:12:08 agenda cleared 08:12:12 Present+ AdrianHB 08:12:22 agenda+ Dinner (for 2ish) 08:12:33 jyrossi has joined #wpwg 08:12:35 Pascal_Bazin has joined #wpwg 08:12:43 q+ 08:13:08 present+ Dongwoo 08:13:20 [Agenda review] 08:13:36 ack wendy 08:13:53 scribe: Ian 08:14:15 wseltzer: Great to see everyone here. Reminder about our discussions, which are technical in nature 08:14:21 ...see my email to the group today -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2016Sep/0093.html 08:15:04 ...I wanted to bring to your attention the antitrust and 08:15:04 competition guidance from IDPF, the group with whom W3C is working 08:15:04 closely on digital publishing: 08:15:04 08:15:16 nicktr: Any agenda change proposals? 08:15:18 [None] 08:15:22 q- 08:15:46 Topic: Editor's Report on Payment Request / Payment Methods 08:15:49 scribe: manu 08:15:50 topic: Editor report on payment request API 08:15:51 Roy has joined #wpwg 08:15:58 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Su47MQXuKZbHpJRjc4VS1LY0E/view?usp=sharing 08:16:08 scribe: Ian 08:16:19 huanghaibin has joined #wpwg 08:16:37 zkoch: In this session we'll set the stage for where we are at and what the editors want to close 08:16:48 marta has joined #wpwg 08:16:49 ...we have an in-depth session before (and continuing after) lunch 08:17:04 ...I"m speaking on behalf of AdrianB and also Roy (present) 08:17:05 present+ Roy 08:17:10 regrets+ AdrianB 08:17:28 chu has joined #wpwg 08:17:40 q? 08:17:42 keiji has joined #wpwg 08:17:43 adamR has joined #wpwg 08:17:44 olivexu_ has joined #wpwg 08:17:44 zkoch: Lots of progress since Feb - closed about 133 issues, about 7 left we want to close at TPAC 08:18:13 ...first implementation in the wild this week...Chrome on Android 08:18:35 ...we've got public statements from merchants...we are getting feedback that we'll discuss later 08:18:49 ...MS Edge is also working on its implementation 08:19:09 AdamR: Mozilla is in the planning phase, implementation schedule not yet known 08:19:36 zkoch: We merged a number of changes recently to align more closely with the Apple API (which we will review) 08:19:49 ...high level goal is to leave TPAC with all issues resolved that we need to get to CR 08:19:54 q? 08:19:54 q? 08:20:00 q+ to note that we need reviews before CR. 08:20:23 zkoch: We will quickly walk through the pull requests from the last 72 hours 08:20:37 ack manu 08:20:37 manu, you wanted to note that we need reviews before CR. 08:20:56 MaheshK has joined #wpwg 08:20:58 Manu: Regarding timing of CR, I think given recent changes we would like an opportunity to review the changes 08:21:21 ...I don't see anything marked as "at risk". Are there any at risk features in mind? 08:21:27 q+ 08:21:36 q? 08:21:40 ack Ian 08:21:41 q+ 08:22:12 IJ: Can we wait until we've seen issues before we do timing? 08:22:21 q? 08:22:21 zkoch: I want to be pragmatic but efficient 08:22:30 q+ to ask about CR timing 08:22:50 q- 08:22:50 present+ lbolstad 08:23:10 nickTR: I think over two days we'll better understand issues and thus timing 08:23:13 q+ to ask about reaching agreement on what "features" are tested for CR 08:23:16 q? 08:23:24 ack Max 08:23:43 max: What is the relationship between PAG and CR? 08:24:34 wseltzer: We do have a PAG underway per the W3C patent policy. Our process is that the groups should continue its work. Patent issues are discussed solely within the PAG. All members represented in the group are welcome to participate in the PAG. 08:25:10 ...at the time that we move to Proposed Recommendation we will want to have the PAG concluded 08:25:17 q? 08:26:00 nicktr: Contact Wendy if your organization wants to get involved in the PAG 08:26:47 sangrae has joined #wpwg 08:26:56 lisongfeng has joined #wpwg 08:27:11 q? 08:27:18 present+ nicktr 08:27:29 ack ShaneM 08:27:29 ShaneM, you wanted to ask about reaching agreement on what "features" are tested for CR 08:27:33 ack S 08:28:12 ShaneM: I'd like to sync up on CR and what we expect to test 08:28:20 q? 08:28:26 [Zach] 08:28:32 [and to be clearer, our goal is to enable the spec to move forward royalty-free] 08:28:33 jungkees has joined #wpwg 08:28:45 [On Basic Card] 08:29:01 lilin has joined #wpwg 08:29:15 zkoch: 1 issue and 2 pending PRs merit discussion at TPAC 08:30:02 q? 08:30:02 [Payment Method Identifiers] 08:30:35 zkoch: We've looked at different proposals. I think we have moved closer and closer to consensus. 08:30:54 ...I believe we have agreed to leverage short strings (for w3c) and URLs for proprietary payment methods (aka closed payment methods) 08:31:04 crestxu has joined #wpwg 08:31:12 ...however, I don't think we have full consensus on what the URLs designate 08:31:21 ...I think we will need more discussion at a breakout (tomorrow) 08:32:06 q+ 08:32:25 zkoch: I also have two new proposals based on merchant feedback 08:32:36 ...there's been a frequent request from India for a COD payment method spec 08:32:50 keiji has joined #wpwg 08:32:55 ...there is a desire to leverage the info collection aspect of the API without the CC data. 08:33:11 ......invoice is another payment method also with no input/output 08:33:23 ...we'll talk about these as well 08:33:35 ...a large number of merchants have raised issues that drive both of these new, simple payment method specs 08:33:42 q? 08:33:54 zkoch: So I think we are close and if we are efficient this meeting we can resolve all our issues 08:33:58 Evgeny has joined #wpwg 08:34:29 max: Regarding PMIs, can we use URLs for closed payment methods? 08:34:30 zkoch: Yes 08:34:45 q+ to note that we may want to re-name Invoice as the term may be confusing to those issuing invoices (as the first part of the payment process) 08:35:01 ack Max 08:35:21 q- 08:35:22 q? 08:35:51 nicktr: Thanks for the intro 08:35:57 rrsagent, make minutes 08:35:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 08:36:10 topic: Payment Apps 08:36:11 https://www.w3.org/2016/Talks/ij_tpac2016_apps/?full#Cover 08:36:29 scribe: manu 08:36:55 Ian: We're going to talk a bit about changes to Payment Apps, we may want to dive into a few of the topics here. 08:37:20 Ian: We have a growing number of people in the task force. 08:37:40 Ian: The biggest changes since July... 08:38:01 Ian: In response to suggestions/questions in July - created a whole new section wrt. model and design considerations. 08:38:11 guochao has joined #wpwg 08:38:22 Ian: One way this can be useful is to give people a high-level overview of Payment Apps. 08:38:27 shepazu has joined #wpwg 08:38:50 Ian: I'd like us to get this spec to FPWD through a CfC after this meeting. A key consideration that I have is to hear from browser vendors that they're okay with the general direction. 08:39:31 Ian: We've tried to be responsive to generation conversation around trust. Which technology approach should be most interesting for payment apps - it would be good to continue to go down a path where we're on the right path wrt. the browser vendors. 08:39:37 Bo has joined #wpwg 08:40:04 Ian: The design considerations section may or may not survive, it may be useful as a communications piece - it has helped the task force speak the same language, see if we're communicating our intentions clearly. 08:40:48 Ian: AdamR, based on discussions, has shown us some detailed spec text wrt. ServiceWorkers - that approach helps address a number of issues wrt. browser-based payment apps. Still open questions wrt. native payment apps. 08:41:10 Ian: Based on security review, we've added security and privacy considerations - still thin, trying to raise issues. 08:42:04 Ian: Shopify asked whether or not we need registration - you need registration when you want persistence, if you want to use an app beyond one use, across many sites. Merchant-recommended payment apps could be used immediately. Registration is not obligatory. 08:42:29 Ian: Registration is not required, but it's useful sometimes. 08:43:08 an01040 has joined #wpwg 08:43:22 Ian: We have had some discussion where browser may have some services that use payment apps - ordering, won't require certain display order questions, what's good practice - removed a few things, weren't getting any airtime - browser recommended payment apps, that has been removed. 08:43:28 Ian: No one has pushed on that concept. 08:43:38 Ian: Currently it's removed, but we might come back to it. 08:43:59 Ian: That's been removed, but we could come back - here are the main topics wrt. that list of changes. 08:44:00 q? 08:44:30 Ian: We want to get through Service workers, PMIs/Payment Apps, UX harmonization, protocol questions, and native payment apps. 08:45:32 Ian: With browser folks in mind, systematic view of UX so we can make them useful and consistent in the future. 08:46:07 q? 08:46:12 Ian: Focus for last few months has been working on browser payment apps - what about native apps? Should we say something, nothing? Any other topics or concerns? 08:46:43 NickTR: You said it would be useful to get feedback from browser vendors - what's the best process to get you guys comfortable with this stuff? 08:47:00 NickTR: I think this may be the biggest next step for the group. 08:47:22 Zach: I haven't had the opportunity to deeply understand the proposal, just need a high-level intro and then deep dive. 08:47:54 Zach: Whatever the open questions - manifest is a sticking point, would be good to understand what the sticking points are. 08:48:14 AdamR: I'm okay with the spec so far, working closely working w/ Firefox folks designing feature. 08:48:24 NickS: Like Zach, we haven't had a chance to review the proposal yet. 08:48:56 Ian: I hear a request to go through at a high-level. 08:49:18 AdamR: Can we get an overview of service workers from Jake. 08:49:38 Ian: I'd like to give a higher level overview first. The idea is sketched out in the design considerations. 08:50:13 Ian: The flow that we have in mind starts with the assumption in the architecture that by moving to the notion of a payment method to abstract away software from data. 08:51:22 Ian: First assumption, for closed payment methods, the payment method owner gets to say who gets to implement the payment method. How do you ensure they're the ones that get to say who gets to use it. We may need digital signatures on payment apps to make sure they're the right payment apps. We haven't talked about Payment Apps. 08:52:14 Ian: The expectation is that we'll see more open payment methods than closed ones. This advantages the merchant. 08:52:53 Ian: What's the right balance wrt. what they're willing to hand off and what they want to control. 08:53:32 Ian: One of the ways we want to give the merchant some control - what's a recommended payment app from the perspective of a merchant? 08:54:16 Ian: The merchant might get to say what payment apps they recommend. With respect to user experience, how should that be ordered? This is some way the merchant can get back some control over the experience? 08:54:18 q? 08:54:29 q+ 08:54:31 q+ to note that we don't have enough merchants in the group to get feedback on that question, we should do a survey 08:54:43 q+ 08:54:46 q+ 08:55:11 NickTR: This idea of merchants having some control is important to some merchants. It's good that we're considering this as an approach, it's only going to be a hint for the implementers. 08:55:17 ack nicktr 08:55:18 q? 08:55:21 ack manu 08:55:21 manu, you wanted to note that we don't have enough merchants in the group to get feedback on that question, we should do a survey 08:55:46 q+ 08:55:47 q+ to ask about use cases 08:56:27 Evgeny has joined #wpwg 08:56:40 Manu: We don't ahve enough merchants in the room. We need to get data from them. 08:56:58 NickTR: It would be good to have more merchants in the group, it would be great to have their voices in the room. 08:57:24 q+ 08:57:25 NickTR: On a weekly basis, they want fine grained control over what they do and don't accept. 08:57:26 marta has joined #wpwg 08:58:00 q? 08:58:03 zakim, close the queue 08:58:03 ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed 08:58:03 q? 08:58:10 ack Max 08:58:11 NickTR: Merchants want control over this process, there is a balance to be struck. Merchants are taking the credit risk, they want a degree of control, that they are balancing those risks. 08:59:01 q+ mechant feedback 08:59:01 Max: I agree with NickTRs comments, as a merchant we want some control of payment apps that are displayed. 08:59:04 Max: Alibaba is a merchant; we'd like to have at least some control over ordering 08:59:06 q- 08:59:16 Max: If the merchant wants to take full control, there is a problem - coldstart 08:59:53 q? 08:59:59 Max: If people want our W3C standard to be used, we want to provide motivation for the merchant - why are they using the API? We need more opinions from merchant. 09:00:06 ack dezell 09:00:54 David: I want to second what my colleagues said - I represent NACS - what NickTR said, it's very difficult to get merchants to tell you what they want until you give them something you don't want. Getting them to tell you what they want is a challenge. 09:01:09 q+ 09:01:32 DavidE: I don't know what the strategy that the right level of involvement is - they are mostly not interested in this level of the work. That doesn't mean their input isn't important. 09:01:38 q? 09:01:38 q? 09:01:43 ack zkoch 09:02:03 Manu: To clarify, I said we don't have "many" merchants in the group. :) 09:02:07 zkoch: I think we have to trust orgs that work closely with merchants to feed back info 09:02:09 q+ 09:02:16 ...I think we have to trust that we will be effective proxies 09:02:18 I hear Apple has a small online retail presence as well 09:02:37 zkoch:...merchant checkout flows are public...you can see what people do, how they rank methods, etc. 09:02:45 q? 09:02:47 ...you can get a pretty comprehensive picture of how merchants think about things 09:03:00 ...this informs how we prioritize things...we look at real-world scenarios 09:03:10 zkoch: There is a data driven approach - you can look at the top merchants and their checkout flows and see how they prioritize things. 09:03:27 ...+1 to Max's observation that we need to drive adoption by offering value in exchange for handing off some control 09:03:40 zkoch: I have not seen the concept of a "recommended payment app" in my merchant conversations. 09:03:57 ...+1 to registration not being a requirement for all use cases 09:04:10 ...I think your proposal addresses this 09:04:17 zkoch: If we can't drive conversions at the end of the day, this isn't going to catch on. I haven't seen a request for recommended payment apps - registration is no longer necessarily a requirement. There is concern from merchants, what if the user doesn't have PayPal registered? That use case has come front and center. 09:04:21 ...one requirement is "If I support it I want you to list it" 09:04:41 q? 09:04:56 Ian: One of the UI questions wrt. experience - what the merchant wants you to see vs. ordering. 09:04:57 q+ to second what we know. 09:05:18 nicks: sorry, never heard of “apple”. 09:05:43 Ian: A general statement is - gathering preference information from merchants and users and giving it to browsers so they do the right thing. 09:05:44 ack adamR 09:05:44 adamR, you wanted to ask about use cases 09:06:39 adamR: I think we have 3 uses cases (missed) and tease them apart to see what merchants want. 09:06:58 I have huge concern about the clarity and usability of such approach - it will be very hard to build something that is not forcing user to use the "merchant recommended" app. It starts opening door to full control over what user can use. 09:07:20 Ian: The flow... merchants may recommend apps - user has said I have these apps. 09:07:37 marta, can you clarify which approach you’re referring to? 09:07:49 Ian: When browser computes intersection - there are apps that are displayed. What happens in push payment world - network failure, how do we deal with that? 09:08:32 Ian: I registered my payment app, I've updated software - browser doesn't support four additional payment methods. There may be one thing that solves these problems - Service Workers. 09:09:09 Ian: We have Jake Archibald here with us today to talk about Service Workers. You can make security guarantees wrt. service workers, who has access, who can update. 09:09:14 zakim, open the queue 09:09:14 ok, Ian, the speaker queue is open 09:09:17 q? 09:09:28 Wanted to say - yes, it seems obvious from where I am that Merchants Want this Control. They spend $$$$ with lots of companies to customize the payment experience for their customers. This customization drives a tremendous amount of software development today, hence why I think it's obvious. 09:09:46 Service workers specification -> https://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/ 09:09:48 JakeA: A service worker is just a javascript context - somewhere you can execute javascript when you don't have an open window. It's a worker, so it doesn't have access to the DOM 09:09:48 instead of a great solution where users can choose his preferred app, which gives him control over his payment methods and so on, now we add the possibility of merchant saying "oh no, you should use these ones that I chose for you". I know that they are only "recommended" for now but potentially it could go sideways 09:10:12 q+ 09:10:19 q+ 09:10:23 JakeA: It has its own update system, wrt. push messaging - you get origin, javascript runs in background, asks for push-registration details. 09:10:44 q— 09:10:47 q- 09:11:02 JakeA: You send that to your server - send a push message that would send you those details - that would land on phone, OS would spin up browser and service worker, push event is in hands of developer who can decide what to do. 09:11:12 q+ 09:11:39 JakeA: The way this could work wrt. payment provider, you are on foo.com but you want to use bar.com - if user has service worker for bar.com, on foo.com it could fire bar.com service worker sending it details of payment. 09:12:09 MattPi has joined #wpwg 09:12:27 keiji has joined #wpwg 09:12:39 JakeA: You may want to open a window where you want extra details from user. Having this in the service worker you get the lifecycle for free, if you are a payment provider and only support visa, and you have 500 users, and you add mastercard, you can send out a push event to update what you support. 09:12:40 Jake: Push notification gives you ability to update payment apps that have been distributed 09:13:32 JakeA: We're thinking of launching foreign fetch - fetch is used to get resources for your page, origin gets to control all pages. With foreign fetch, other origin gets to pick and have final say in what happens. Remote installation of a service worker, for example. 09:14:13 ack zk 09:14:16 JakeA: User may never go to that origin - remote installation of service worker - sounds similar to preferred payment app provider thing. If I want you to have paypal installed, it might be the same mechanism for paypal. 09:14:27 q? 09:14:33 keiji_ has joined #wpwg 09:14:46 zkoch: Yes, we need a way to remotely install payment apps 09:14:46 zkoch: I think you answered my question - we may not want to enforce registration - we might need some mechanism like this, a way to install something. 09:15:04 JakeA: Can do via header today 09:15:23 JakeA: The bit we are missing - where I can ask for something to happen, don't have an API for that yet.