08:13:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
08:13:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc
08:13:29 <ato> RRSAgent: Good morning.
08:13:29 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'Good morning.', ato.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:13:36 <ato> RRSAgent: Are you thick?
08:13:36 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'Are you thick'
08:14:50 <ato> Meeting: WebDriver F2F TPAC 19 September 2016
08:15:11 <ato> RRSAgent: Please draft the minutes.
08:15:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'Please draft the minutes.', ato.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:15:20 <ato> RRSAgent: create the minutes
08:15:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:15:48 <ato> RRSAgent: please set these logs world-visible
08:16:02 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:16:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:17:14 <ato> Chair: AutomatedTester
08:17:27 <mkwst> mkwst has joined #webdriver
08:17:29 <ato> Scribe: ato
08:17:34 <ato> Scribe: Andreas Tolfsen
08:17:36 <ato> ScribeNick: ato
08:18:00 <sam_u> present+
08:18:01 <simonstewart> Present+
08:18:02 <ato> present+
08:18:05 <simonstewart> present+
08:18:09 <wilhelm_> Present+
08:18:13 <brrian> present+
08:18:31 <juangj> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:18:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html juangj
08:18:48 <juangj> that didn’t work, none of you is present
08:19:01 <chang> chang has joined #webdriver
08:19:02 <juangj> Present: sam_u simonstewart ato wilhelm_ brrian
08:19:07 <juangj> Present+ juangj
08:20:01 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:20:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:20:21 <ato> present+ ato
08:20:23 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:20:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:20:28 <tkim> tkim has joined #webdriver
08:20:32 <mkwst> present+
08:20:39 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:20:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:21:10 <ato> present+ mkwst
08:21:13 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:21:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:23:00 <ato> Sometimes hard to tell if RRSAgent does the bidding because of latency.
08:23:36 <ato> present+ jgraham
08:23:39 <ato> Sometimes hard to tell if RRSAgent does the bidding because of latency.
08:23:42 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:23:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:29:13 <ato> present+ MikeSmith
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08:32:05 <ato> MikeSmith: Morning coffee break 10-11, we need to pay respect to this.
08:32:18 <ato> MikeSmith: Make sure to break at 10:30.
08:33:05 <AutomatedTester> present+ DavidBurns
08:33:19 <ato> AutomatedTester: We’ll start with introductions.
08:33:19 <MikeSmith> present+
08:33:24 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:33:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:33:27 <JohnJansen> present+
08:33:41 <ato> AutomatedTester: I’m David Burns, editor and now chair. Work at Moizlla.
08:33:52 <ato> mkwst: I’m Mike West. Work on Chrome. Have not done work on WebDriver, but interested.
08:34:09 <rbyers> rbyers has joined #webdriver
08:34:18 <ato> present+ rbyers
08:34:32 <ato> rbyers: Work on platform predictability. Just observing.
08:34:42 <AutomatedTester> present+ AutomatedTester
08:35:02 <ato> ToddRiefstack: Work on performance with Microsoft.
08:35:15 <ato> present+ mikepie
08:35:28 <ato> mikepie: Want to talk about extensions tomorrow.
08:35:31 <juangj> Present+ JohnJansen
08:35:47 <ato> JohnJansen: Work on the WebDriver implementation at Microsoft, Web Platform Tests, and a lot of stuff that’s not relevant.
08:36:11 <ato> juangj: Work with Google. Work on Google’s scalability of WebDriver internally.
08:36:27 <ato> present+ paul
08:36:38 <ato> paul: I’m interested in listening and wonder what’s happening in this space.
08:36:59 <ato> [unknown observer introducing himself]
08:37:14 <ato> [another unknown observer introduction]
08:37:35 <ato> wilhelm_: My name is Wilhelm, former chair. Used to work with Opera. Now I’m running my own consultancy.
08:38:20 <ato> ato: I’m Andreas Tolfsen. I work for Mozilla. Used to be at Opera with wilhelm_.
08:38:27 <ato> jgraham: I work with geckodriver at Moizlla.
08:38:37 <ato> brrian: I work with Apple. On safaridriver.
08:38:45 <ato> sam_u: Hi, I work with Google.
08:39:13 <ato> simonstewart: I’m Simon Stewart. Creator of WebDriver, co-editor of the specification.
08:39:20 <ato> Topic: State of the Union
08:39:22 <juangj> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2016-TPAC-F2F
08:39:23 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2016-TPAC-F2F
08:39:45 <ato> AutomatedTester: The last meeting was in Redmond, where for the first time we had Apple join us for a F2F.
08:39:50 <ato> AutomatedTester: A number of items were discussed.
08:40:10 <ato> AutomatedTester: Key item discussed was actions, where jgraham discussed how things were going to look.
08:40:25 <ato> AutomatedTester: Since then we have had the first part of that landed in the spec, which is hte transposing of the matrix.
08:40:37 <ato> AutomatedTester: Before it gets handed over to a dispatcher, where events are dispatched.
08:40:44 <ato> AutomatedTester: The dispatch part is currently being reviewed.
08:40:46 <ato> AutomatedTester: Is that correct?
08:40:52 <ato> jgraham: The pointers thing is still in review.
08:41:02 <ato> AutomatedTester: I didn’t land it because there might be some comments.
08:41:31 <ato> AutomatedTester: Hopefully people have started reading that part, as that was really the last main item that we were going to try get landed before TPAC.
08:41:47 <ato> AutomatedTester: A contentious item we’re going to discuss today are capabilities.
08:42:06 <ato> AutomatedTester: From the specification PoV, we are down to the devil-in-the-detail kind of issues now.
08:42:19 <ato> AutomatedTester: As for the test suite, since the last F2F there hasn’t really been much work on that.
08:42:46 <ato> AutomatedTester: Because of things that have happened at Mozilla, we have been forced to focus more on our own implementation.
08:43:02 <ato> AutomatedTester: That is the current state of the specification and the test suite.
08:43:04 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
08:43:06 <ato> AutomatedTester: Am I missing anything?
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08:43:15 <ato> JohnJansen: Should we discuss the test suite tomorrow maybe?
08:43:17 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
08:43:20 <ato> simonstewart, AutomatedTester: Yeha.
08:43:32 <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/2016/05/browser-testing-tools-charter.html
08:43:35 <ato> MikeSmith: Everybody should look at our current charter.
08:43:46 <ato> MikeSmith: There’s nothing interesting, apart from the end date.
08:43:58 <ato> MikeSmith: Ideally we would like to go to REC before end of March.
08:44:04 <ato> MikeSmith: Looks like that isn’t going to happen.
08:44:16 <ato> AutomatedTester: Should we make that the next agenda item?
08:45:22 <chang> chang has joined #webdriver
08:45:31 <ato> ato: If we want to renew this we probably want to add Safari.
08:45:36 <ato> MikeSmith: Yes.
08:45:37 <rbyers> q+
08:45:42 <ato> simonstewart: And Selenium, as an intermediary.
08:45:43 <ato> ato: Yes.
08:46:13 <MikeSmith> q?
08:46:24 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
08:46:24 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
08:46:31 <ato> JohnJansen: There’s a community/interest group meeting on Thursday.
08:46:41 <ato> JohnJansen: I thought the console API would be under this.
08:46:42 <MikeSmith> q?
08:46:48 <ato> JohnJansen: Do I have the wrong impression?
08:47:02 <ato> jgraham: I don’t know what the point of having a WG for the WPT.
08:47:09 <ato> jgraham: We’re not aiming to produce specification text.
08:47:43 <ato> JohnJansen: I think that group could do with the direction of a group.
08:48:09 <ato> JohnJansen: To align browser vendors with the work going on there.
08:48:20 <ato> JohnJansen: No one has direct responsibility for it.
08:48:26 <ato> JohnJansen: It’s hard to know what the expectations are.
08:48:44 <ato> JohnJansen: It strikes me as something we might be able to improve.
08:49:09 <ato> jgraham: Typically so far, the people in this room has had very specific WebDriver experience, which is not necessarily the same group of people you want giving input to WPT as a whole.
08:49:17 <ato> jgraham: It’s not clear from a human point of view that they are the same group.
08:49:44 <ato> JohnJansen: I agree. There’s an interesting Venn-diagram.
08:50:09 <MikeSmith> q?
08:50:12 <MikeSmith> ack rbyers
08:51:25 <ato> AutomatedTester: What you want, is a task force that WPT is actually maintained and driven forward?
08:51:32 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment about testing plans
08:51:42 <ato> AutomatedTester: Historically, we have jgraham doing a lot of the harness work.
08:51:48 <ato> AutomatedTester: And the infrastructure around that.
08:51:58 <ato> AutomatedTester: And then the spec owners helping out.
08:52:12 <ato> AutomatedTester: It would be good for specs to have actual tests.
08:52:18 <ato> AutomatedTester: Things appear to be falling between the cracks.
08:52:29 <ato> jgraham: I have a feeling that this is a discussion for Thursday.
08:52:37 <MikeSmith> q?
08:53:16 <MikeSmith> q-
08:53:45 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment about scheduling for transtion to CR and to Rec
08:53:56 <ato> ato: It also feels like it’s a mistake to increase the charter of the group now before we publish.
08:54:04 <ato> jgraham: What are the success criteria?
08:54:14 <ato> jgraham: I’m thinking implementations.
08:54:22 <ato> jgraham: geckodriver is one implementation.
08:54:34 <ato> sam_u: We are making changes, but they are hidden behind a flag.
08:54:40 <ato> simonstewart: Selenium another.
08:54:42 <ato> (third)
08:54:52 <ato> JohnJansen: I don’t see why we can’t hit March.
08:55:20 <ato> jgraham: I think I disagree, as people implement the spec we will find things that people haven’t thought about.
08:55:23 <ato> [agreement]
08:55:36 <ato> MikeSmith: We don’t want to be in CR any longer we want to be.
08:56:06 <ato> MikeSmith: If we want to be the end of March, we need everything done by the end of February.
08:56:16 <ato> MikeSmith: We can always extend.
08:56:31 <ato> MikeSmith: But I always almost say no.
08:56:42 <ato> MikeSmith: So it’s hypocritical of me to call for it.
08:57:09 <ato> AutomatedTester: We have certain parts that are solid.
08:57:42 <ato> jgraham: In practice tests are written when implementations are written.
08:57:54 <ato> jgraham: People don’t generally write tests for the sake of writing tests.
08:58:32 <ato> jgraham: From our point of view, we haven’t written tests because we can’t run them in automation for build system issues.
08:59:01 <ato> [Mozilla discussion]
09:01:37 <ato> ato: I’m worried about the process of pushing fixes after REC.
09:01:47 <ato> rbyers: The activity can always continue on Github
09:01:56 <ato> MikeSmith: There isn’t a great process for that.
09:02:11 <ato> [discussion about process]
09:04:20 <ato> MikeSmith: For some organisations it’s important to always have a link to the spec text as it was when it was pushed to Rec.
09:05:38 <MikeSmith> q?
09:05:42 <MikeSmith> ack mikepie
09:05:47 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
09:05:47 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment about scheduling for transtion to CR and to Rec
09:05:51 <ato> rbyers: It’s always an option to hire a contractor to write tests.
09:05:57 <ato> sam_u: Yes, we have a lot of tests we could upstream
09:06:29 <ato> ato: But it’s not just as easy as upstreaming. It’s a lot of work to review tests against the spec, maybe you find bugs, you need to fix spec, iterate.
09:06:42 <ato> JohnJansen: I think we should keep the current date.
09:06:53 <ato> MikeSmith: We also need people to review those.
09:07:02 <ato> MikeSmith: With WPT the biggest frustration is review.
09:07:15 <ato> MikeSmith: It’s all volunteer work.
09:07:44 <MikeSmith> q?
09:09:13 <ato> ato: At Mozilla we review W3C related changes equally to internal changes.
09:09:23 <ato> ato: Practically changes to WebDriver W3C bits, changes are being reviewed.
09:09:38 <ato> [talk about review process in WPT]
09:11:48 <ato> juangj: WebDriver 2
09:12:04 <ato> ato: Console API, extensions, meda, web bluetooth
09:14:29 <ato> MikeSmith: Evaluate manual tests in WPT and how we can automate them.
09:15:06 <ato> MikeSmith: It’s not just a software problem. we need to find out what things people have _not_ written tests for because they knew upfront they couldn’t automate.
09:17:53 <ato> Action: rbyers and sam to investigate possibility of investing in the tests.
09:18:16 <ato> Resolution: We are keeping current deadline of pushing to REC in March.
09:18:39 <ato> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/QA/Marionette/WebDriver/status
09:18:51 <ato> ato: ↑ geckodriver implementation status
09:20:07 <ato> JohnJansen: We wrote an app for matching annotations in specs to tests.
09:20:19 <ato> JohnJansen: We applied it to WebDriver because it’s a relatively contained spec.
09:20:26 <ato> mkwst: I would be interested in this.
09:20:51 <ato> mkwst: It’s not clear from a lot of the specs I’m working on that we’re testing the right things.
09:21:29 <ato> AutomatedTester: Break until 11.
09:21:43 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
09:21:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
09:21:57 <juangj> juangj has joined #webdriver
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10:09:50 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
10:09:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
10:13:22 <ato> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
10:13:29 <ato> RRSAgent: When is midnight?
10:13:29 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'When is midnight'
10:13:38 <ato> RRSAgent: You suck.
10:13:38 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'You suck.', ato.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
10:14:33 <ato> AutomatedTester: Is there anything people want to add to the agenda?
10:14:35 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2016-TPAC-F2F
10:16:02 <Ms2ger> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2016-TPAC-F2F
10:16:08 <jgraham> MikeSmith: Any idea what the problem with RSSAgent is?
10:16:08 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
10:16:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html Ms2ger
10:16:33 <ato> Full list of meetings from previous meetings: https://sny.no/bttmin
10:16:46 <ato> juangj: Security wrt. certs
10:17:05 <ato> sam_u: Send keys
10:17:14 <ato> AutomatedTester: Tomororw?
10:17:16 <ato> brrian: Yes
10:17:40 <ato> rbyers: Keyboard support in Blink people here. I can invite.
10:17:49 <ato> AutomatedTester: That sounds useful.
10:18:14 <ato> https://www.w3.org/2016/07/13-webdriver-minutes.html
10:18:24 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/2016/07/14-webdriver-minutes.html#ActionSummary
10:23:07 <MikeSmith> jgraham, no idea what the problem with RRSAgent might be
10:23:22 <AutomatedTester> scribe: AutomatedTester
10:23:35 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
10:23:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
10:23:39 <JohnJansen> present+
10:23:50 <simonstewart> present+
10:24:39 <AutomatedTester> topic: capabilities
10:25:02 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
10:25:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
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10:30:29 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the best way to start is to document what the requirements are so we know where to compromise
10:33:36 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: requirements should be written on the whiteboard (photo to follow)
10:34:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: from the point of the browser we need to know the endpoint and the configuration items for that browser
10:34:52 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we have a requirement to support multiple UA details in a new session command
10:35:28 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we need to remove as much duplication from the capabilities as possible. E.g. don't have multiple 100mb Firefox addons base64 encoded
10:35:42 <AutomatedTester> ato: are we going to discuss extension points?
10:35:52 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: yes, we do want to support it.
10:36:16 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: there is no such thing as a routing request since a capabilities could route and might not be
10:36:23 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we can discuss this later
10:37:21 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: from the point of view of the UA that should be sufficient. As far as possible we should get as much info as we can without starting the browser. We need to get there before initialising the resources where possible.
10:40:19 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: have the ability to be transparent when moving between nodes. Should intermediaries be allowed to remove data?
10:42:12 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we need to have something that is either widely used in Selenium or in the spec to main compatibility.
10:43:27 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: capabilities from a browser vendor viewpoint, we have the way to get the UA we want on a specific platform or how do we get the UA we want with all the extensions
10:43:54 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: capabilities is routing + configuration but we may need to keep it for compatibility
10:44:10 <AutomatedTester> juangj: remove ambiguity in matching
10:44:20 <AutomatedTester> juangj: for ease of implementation
10:45:03 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: the ability to feature sniff so we can use mixins when checking what is returned
10:47:00 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we are basing the rest of this discussion on https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/327
10:47:19 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: we need to discuss when items can be removed from the returned list
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10:47:56 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: ease of implementation is missing from the list
10:50:07 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: the original design was simple in that the validation was done in local end. The requiredCapabilities was thought of to move the validation from the local end to the remote end.
10:50:49 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we need to have validation on start up (resource allocation)
10:51:16 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: Jleyba's PR https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/327
10:51:47 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: [drawing the JSON structure from the PR ^]
10:53:34 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: the idea is to iterate over firstMatch and merge to alwaysMatch and then start session and if you cant do it, you try the next firstMatch item
10:55:22 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: the PR allows validation to happen in the end node,  support multiple browser, minimise duplication, transparency, non ambiguous, ridiculuously easy to implement and feature sniffing
10:56:18 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I have a slightly alternate design based off jleyba's design. I put in the mailing list thread https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-browser-tools-testing/2016JulSep/0026.html
10:56:38 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: [gives example of any browser on linux]
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10:59:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: My alternate scheme [draws on whiteboard] has "routing":{}
10:59:44 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: people would want to route on rotable
10:59:48 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: is that a thing
10:59:54 <AutomatedTester> sam_u: yes
11:00:47 <AutomatedTester> sam_u: the other issue is anything can suddenly become a routing item
11:01:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: well chromeOptions and firefoxOptions dont really have anything that allow for routing
11:02:10 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the next item is "capabilities":[{}, {}]
11:02:39 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: its like jleyba's item except its just alwaysMatch and not iterating on firstMatch
11:03:09 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: practically speaking people add ALL THE THINGS when starting
11:04:48 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: [discusses how looping matches in his proposal]
11:04:58 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
11:04:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
11:06:20 <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: we dont appear to be getting drafted minutes but items are being logged
11:08:10 <MikeSmith> worst case, I have a complete local log of channel, and can generate minutes from it later
11:08:30 <AutomatedTester> ok
11:08:33 <MikeSmith> s/MikeSmith: /MikeSmith,
11:08:43 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:08:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:10:01 <AutomatedTester> [discussion on matches vs alwaysMatch + firstMatch]
11:12:50 <AutomatedTester> juangj: let me restate to make sure I understand: routing is a list of alwaysMatch from jleyba's and then move to next node and then do the capabilities/settings key and then do that as a group of if statements to make sure it is correct
11:13:31 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that is a good description. An intermediary node would only look at routing: and the end node would only look at capabilities:/settings:
11:13:47 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: but browsers don't work that way
11:14:02 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: [gives example]
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11:16:33 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:16:44 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:16:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:17:44 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment briefly
11:19:09 <AutomatedTester> ato: I think both of these proposals are a little too complicated.
11:20:19 <AutomatedTester> ato: we have 3 items we need. Matrix switching, machine details, UA details
11:20:55 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I dont think we need to have all items as routing. E.g. browser profiles
11:24:59 <AutomatedTester> juangj: [gives an example on how routing would work on the alwaysMatch/firstMatch
11:26:48 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: settings: would only have the UA items. Routing would direct you to the right machine
11:27:37 <AutomatedTester> juangj: routing gets you to the machine that has what you need and then settings checks the UA is correct or returns NoSessionCreatedError
11:28:34 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: jgraham's proposal means local end needs to understand the topology of the network.
11:29:00 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't understand why anything needs to know the topology
11:30:17 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: this feels like it's going to be difficult for localend people to understand
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11:31:13 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: current implementations know how to look capabilities: key
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11:32:53 <AutomatedTester> AUtomatedTester: no one is currently using the current spec requiredCapabilities key. I went and spoke to browserstack/testingbot/saucelabs and google to understand their use
11:33:16 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: this is great! this simplifies things
11:33:50 <AutomatedTester> ato: it is easy to retrofit the PR to the current implementations for a form of backwards compatibility
11:34:45 <AutomatedTester> ato: it is more difficult for local end implementors (Selenium Project) for the 2nd proposal
11:36:09 <AutomatedTester> ato: What would we do to existing implementations
11:36:39 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we would put requiredCapabilities into alwaysMatch and firstMatch into desiredCapabilities
11:39:22 <AutomatedTester> juangj: browser profiles can still be duplicated
11:39:41 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: we could always use something like jgraham's either idea of a browser: {}
11:40:24 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: or we can have a way of store this profile on a server somehwere and a value pointing to it
11:40:33 <AutomatedTester> s/somehwere/somewhere/
11:40:50 <AutomatedTester> ato: we dont get many profile users
11:41:03 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: not sure, it was a big request in GeckoDriver
11:41:26 <AutomatedTester> ato: people are more interested in setting prefs or extensions
11:41:39 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: well in the 100mb profile case, the extension is 99mb
11:43:05 <AutomatedTester> ato: with Firefox 47 we had to add extension end point to allow people to install addons later on
11:43:32 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: [describes historic Firefox XPI disklayout]
11:43:52 <AutomatedTester> ato: Mozilla is now copying what chromeOptions is doing to simplify things
11:43:58 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: but not in the spec?
11:44:05 <AutomatedTester> ato: yes, this is Mozilla specific
11:44:57 <AutomatedTester> ato: where would chromeOptions/FirefoxOptions go?
11:45:03 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: in alwaysMatch
11:45:50 <AutomatedTester> ato: what happens if you send {alwaysMatch: someRandomKey:""}
11:46:13 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: NoSessionCreatedError is returned since it should fully do all the keys within that
11:48:01 <AutomatedTester> [discussion about adding random items as the top level key]
11:48:35 <AutomatedTester> [e.g. access tokens for networks]
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11:51:57 <AutomatedTester> ato: we should have a note for how a local end _may_ write this
11:52:25 <AutomatedTester> resolution: Move forward with jleyba's PR
11:53:23 <AutomatedTester> action: Note/Example on how this would be used
11:53:42 <ato> Example of example: http://w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-spec.html#capabilities
11:53:45 <ato> Example 5
11:54:09 <AutomatedTester> action: DBURNS clean up jleyba's PR and get landed and then iterate as issues come up
11:55:53 <AutomatedTester> Automated: CAn things be removed when we return capabilities?
11:56:04 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: no, we need backwards/forwards compatibility
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11:58:11 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
11:58:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
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12:50:18 <simonstewart> +present
12:50:22 <simonstewart> present+
12:50:31 <simonstewart> present+ simonstewart
12:50:35 <JohnJansen> present+ JohnJansen
12:50:35 <AutomatedTester> present+ AutomatedTester
12:50:44 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
12:50:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
12:53:16 <juangj> ArrrrrArrrrSAgent
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13:06:56 <AutomatedTester> topic: Returned capabilities
13:07:22 <ato> brrian: We are ready to begin again.
13:08:24 <brrian> ato: I'll be back in 10 mins or so, don't wait
13:08:54 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: there are 2 possible options on the table
13:09:29 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: 1) take the capaibilities that are matched and return what has been met and extra UA supported capabilities
13:09:38 <AutomatedTester> ato: So only the matched capabilities?
13:09:55 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: yes, this allows people to sniff what is returned and then use mixins
13:10:32 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: historically we used capabilities to check what is returned and feature sniff before moving on
13:11:04 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: given the new newSession details discussed earlier now has the validation on the remote end and we just returned matched
13:11:44 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: in the spec we have a handful of things with capabilities in the commands (acceptsSslCerts)
13:12:21 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we dont want to return large amounts of data, e.g. large profile
13:13:06 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we MUST return anything that has a capability name that is currently in the specification
13:13:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: should we return we have done it or the value that was set
13:13:37 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: e.g. browserName == true or browserName == Edge
13:13:43 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: browserName == Edge
13:14:18 <AutomatedTester> ato: are we going to predefine a list ?
13:14:36 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we want a canonical list and then have the ability to extend it
13:15:00 <AutomatedTester> ato: do we use vendor prefixing?
13:15:10 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: just pick a string
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13:20:27 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: what would people prefer?
13:20:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the first option and vendors can change it if they need to. Ideally not to return 100mb profile base64 string
13:21:52 <AutomatedTester> [discussion of current spec text]
13:22:41 <AutomatedTester> ato: if you want to be nice to your user you can send back what the issue is but it does say we to send back a string
13:23:03 <AutomatedTester> ato: from the practical point of view, for WPT we just check type of the errror not the string
13:23:48 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: there are multiple ways to fail on startup and this will be the end node talking to the browser (the shim probably)
13:28:50 <AutomatedTester> resolution: returned object from new session should be capaibilities that are matched and return what has been met and  UA  capabilities (browser/platform/ssl) and the vendor can decide what is returned
13:33:53 <AutomatedTester> [discussion around what is returned
13:35:58 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we need to have text in the spec for what capabilities is returned
13:38:08 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: [repeats resolution to check that is what people want]
13:38:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: but do we really want to return proxy: ?
13:39:12 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we can look at some of them where we return large things and just return a boolean to say it was done or not
13:40:40 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: do we return everything or just what we matched?
13:42:17 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we can say we are using the profile and just the names of the extensions instead of the extension
13:44:50 <brrian> present+
13:47:32 <AutomatedTester> resolution: returned object from new session should be the full list of known capabilities with defined serialisation
13:50:09 <simonstewart> Suggested resolution: return “all capabilities matched for the session”, “every capability name given in the spec”, and “a custom subset (which may be All The Things) that the browser supports”
13:51:03 <AutomatedTester> resolution: return “all capabilities matched for the session”, “every capability name given in the spec”, and “a custom subset (which may be All The Things) that the browser supports”
13:51:32 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
13:51:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
13:54:48 <AutomatedTester> resolution: return object with 2 keys, session_id: ".." capabilities:“all capabilities matched for the session”, “every capability name given in the spec”, and “a custom subset (which may be All The Things) that the browser supports”
13:56:14 <AutomatedTester> action: to mention somewhere, over the rainbow, keys injected by intermediary nodes must be namespaced with a vendor prefix
13:56:27 <ato> 🌈
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14:24:01 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:24:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html MikeSmith
14:25:06 <MikeSmith> w00t
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14:35:34 <ato> MikeSmith: ++
14:36:43 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: what about capabilities that the browsers can do that the developers have no idea about
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14:37:13 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we used to have a endpoint that used to do that GET /session_id
14:38:00 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:38:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html MikeSmith
14:38:01 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: from a local end, are they wanting to support arbitary things?
14:38:36 <AutomatedTester> ato: I cant imagine that people would do that
14:38:54 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: PHPDriver from facebook required people know the transport mechanisms
14:39:09 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: this feels like this is just, you need more documentation
14:39:50 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: knowing there is a MS Capabilities end point I can see what is able of doing it without having to look up docs
14:40:15 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: feels like, writing more docs is better than adding a new end point
14:40:30 <AutomatedTester> juangj: why not put this in a /status endpoint
14:40:46 <juangj> (ftr, that was half in jest)
14:40:55 <AutomatedTester> ato: we wont be removing capabilities
14:41:05 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: but we are adding new items
14:41:35 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: if you are using it in an exploratory way there might be vendor specific items
14:43:22 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we could return a link to documentation
14:43:43 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: but just returning the keys and no clue of what the values can be in there could be weak sauce
14:43:52 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: people still need to then go read the docs
14:44:15 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: this does sound like docs
14:44:35 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: but there is another argument of asking what returning capabilities are available
14:45:05 <ato> “Probably someone is going to have a counter example involving intermediary notes”
14:46:44 <AutomatedTester> ato: what is the granularity? top level?
14:46:51 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes, just the top level
14:47:23 <AutomatedTester> sam_u: this could be useful as a service exploring
14:47:53 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: OSS Selenium grid has a web page and people want to explore those capabilities
14:48:56 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: intermediary nodes can't return this info so it breaks the transparency concept we wanted and discussed earlier
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14:49:58 <AutomatedTester> Todd: when I worked in cloud services, it was possible to return meta data from the service
14:50:30 <AutomatedTester> Todd: It might be good to make sure we have documentation
14:50:49 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I am happy for it to return a full set
14:51:50 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: I dont understand why I was against returning the full capabilities
14:53:12 <AutomatedTester> resolution: return an object with 2 keys, session_id: "...", capabilities: { full list of known capabilities with defined serialisation}
14:53:35 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
14:53:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
14:54:07 <ato> AutomatedTester: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/0/04/Khrushchev_Banging.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080805101523
14:54:54 <AutomatedTester> topic: Unsigned Self Signed Certification
14:55:03 <juangj> http://i.imgur.com/CKWJ5wh.gif
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14:56:32 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: things to discuss, capability name and default value
14:57:32 <AutomatedTester> brrian: the default should be no/false as this causes a lot of insecure systems
14:57:50 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: [discusses the 3 audiences of WebDriver specification]
15:00:42 <AutomatedTester> ato: currently OSS FirefoxDriver defaults to no, chrome defaults to yes and IE doesnt support it
15:00:45 <simonstewart> PageLoadingTest.testShouldBeAbleToAccessPagesWithAnInsecureSslCertificate
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15:04:32 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: one question that needs answer, what are vendors allowed
15:04:47 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: Mozilla infosec would like security in depth
15:05:53 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: Mozilla would also, if possible, to have a browser notification to say that we have WebDriver running
15:06:38 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: what happens if the person can't launch a session but can hijack a session that is running
15:08:15 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: if you security conscious you would have code to default it off
15:08:51 <AutomatedTester> brrian: I havent spoken to our infosec
15:08:55 <jimevans_> I, for one, have no issues with a vendor putting up a visible indicator that the browser is being driven by WebDriver.
15:09:30 <AutomatedTester> brrian: it will be really hard to have this in safari because of it's current architecture
15:09:41 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: how do you switch it on?
15:09:54 <AutomatedTester> juangj: you do [following steps]
15:10:19 <juangj> [literally clicking one menu option in Safari]
15:10:32 <AutomatedTester> ato: should we have a note about a visual display
15:10:40 <AutomatedTester> all: yes
15:10:42 <jimevans> I also like the safari implementation (manual activation, "pane of glass" over automated sessions.
15:11:56 <juangj> agreed with jim, the orange address bar and break-glass mechanisms are really nice
15:12:05 <AutomatedTester> action: add prose to "show a visual display that automation is currently running" to the specification
15:13:16 <AutomatedTester> ato: if Apple can't default to true we should have everyone default to false
15:14:10 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we would need to make this a SHOULD then (which is terrible)
15:15:33 <ato> FTR, what I said was that this discussion is _pending_ on what Apple’s sec team comes back with.
15:15:59 <AutomatedTester> ato: this discussion is _pending_ on what Apple’s sec team comes back with.
15:16:59 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: we have ways of working out security threats and security in depth is a good thing but they would let it go
15:18:06 <AutomatedTester> ato: I dont have an opinion either way but I have an opinion on the input type
15:18:25 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we can do what we want but if the local ends are going to do the opposite then it doesnt matter
15:19:17 <AutomatedTester> ato: what do want, leave it off by default in the spec?
15:19:26 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: in the spec it should be off
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15:20:32 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: in the GET and people access bad HTTPS we return a message (InsecureSSLError)
15:21:49 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in Edge, can you check that you got an self-signed cert?
15:21:52 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: not sure
15:22:33 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: so for navigation we need to check
15:24:38 <AutomatedTester> ato: we need to make the page loading part of the spec more generic and unsigned certs should be handled there
15:25:05 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: how does the page load strategy work in Selenium?
15:25:19 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: on everything, not just Go
15:25:40 <AutomatedTester> action: Make Page load strategy more generic
15:27:11 <AutomatedTester> action: add error code for when we invoke page loading strategy and we hit a self-signed certificate
15:28:03 <AutomatedTester> ato: should we also have the user prompt handler return this error too?
15:28:15 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: yes, we need it in the processing model
15:28:43 <AutomatedTester> ato: I dont think it should be there, we have setTimeouts that we dont want affect
15:30:13 <AutomatedTester> action: to add insecure page check where it makes sense
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15:30:42 <AutomatedTester> action: to investigate user prompt handling and insecure page detection to the processing model
15:30:50 <ato> moving*
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15:31:42 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: so acceptSslCert: False is the default
15:32:26 <AutomatedTester> brrian: do we want to be insecureSslCert as a key?
15:32:57 <brrian> acceptInsecureSSLCerts
15:33:55 <AutomatedTester> s/insecureSslCert/acceptInsecureSSLCerts
15:35:03 <AutomatedTester> resolution: change acceptSslCert to acceptInsecureCerts
15:36:21 <AutomatedTester> resolution: change the wording to be SHOULD when processing the acceptInsecureCerts
15:36:43 <AutomatedTester> sam_u: should Chrome be backwards compat?
15:36:50 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that's your choice
15:37:50 <AutomatedTester> topic: Safe listing domains
15:38:31 <AutomatedTester> ato: previously we discussed instead of a boolean, which is too course, should we be a list?
15:38:44 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: safe listing is a good idea
15:39:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: can Gecko do that?
15:39:27 <AutomatedTester> ato: yes
15:39:45 <AutomatedTester> sam_u: in Chrome this is going to be really hard to do it
15:39:51 <AutomatedTester> JohnJansen: and same with us
15:40:04 <AutomatedTester> ato: do we want to do this or keep the boolean?
15:40:38 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we need to a feature for a future spec to allow us to do this
15:41:18 <AutomatedTester> action: add a bug that allows safe listing of domains for V2
15:42:30 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: draft minutes
15:42:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
15:42:54 <AutomatedTester> topic: Open Bugs https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=20860&hide_resolved=1
15:44:08 <juangj> same
15:44:23 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24121
15:44:30 <simonstewart> Level 2 is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24121
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15:51:10 <simonstewart> MikeSmith: I don’t suppose anyone has an HDMI to HDMI cable we could borrow? Or a Mac DVI to VGA converter?
15:51:34 <MikeSmith> simonstewart, ask at reception
15:51:51 <MikeSmith> will ask myself as well
15:52:07 <MikeSmith> s/MikeSmith: /MikeSmith,
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16:05:47 <lukeis> RRSAgent: draft minutes
16:05:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html lukeis
16:20:01 <ato> “I had a dream about what to do after minimising the browser window last night”
16:21:15 <simonstewart> https://github.com/jnicklas/capybara/pull/1744#issuecomment-244200356
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20:50:08 <brrian> lukeis: we had a lightning triage session
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22:40:18 <ato> lukeis: Lisbon is quite good fun.
22:41:02 <ato> lukeis: It’s a fairly civilised place to hold a conference, although I must admit the conference venue is very W3C-esque which implies terrible catering.
22:50:18 <juangj> not that conveneint to leave the conference center for lunch
22:51:01 <juangj> working as intended
22:51:08 <juangj> didn’t want to forget to resume logging tomorrow
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07:52:19 <kmag2> Does anyone have a rough idea of when extension automation will be discussed today? I don't want to take up space in the room longer than necessary.
08:17:30 <ato> RRSAgent: silence
08:51:36 <ato> Meeting: WebDriver F2F TPAC 20 September 2016
08:51:44 <ato> Chair: AutomatedTester
08:52:45 <ato> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2016-TPAC-F2F
08:52:57 <ato> RRSAgent: please draft the minutes
08:52:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-minutes.html ato
08:53:02 <juangj_> RRSAgent: please fix the wifi
08:53:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please fix the wifi', juangj_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:53:28 <ato> RRSAgent: start a new log
08:53:55 <ato> RRSAgent: please excuse us
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-actions.rdf :
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: rbyers and sam to investigate possibility of investing in the tests. [1]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T09-17-53
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Note/Example on how this would be used [2]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T11-53-23
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DBURNS clean up jleyba's PR and get landed and then iterate as issues come up [3]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T11-54-09
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: to mention somewhere, over the rainbow, keys injected by intermediary nodes must be namespaced with a vendor prefix [4]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T13-56-14
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: add prose to "show a visual display that automation is currently running" to the specification [5]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T15-12-05
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Make Page load strategy more generic [6]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T15-25-40
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: add error code for when we invoke page loading strategy and we hit a self-signed certificate [7]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T15-27-11
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: to add insecure page check where it makes sense [8]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T15-30-13
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: to investigate user prompt handling and insecure page detection to the processing model [9]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T15-30-42
08:53:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: add a bug that allows safe listing of domains for V2 [10]
08:53:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-webdriver-irc#T15-41-18
08:54:33 <plh> plh has joined #webdriver