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08:03:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-irc
08:04:24 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
08:04:31 <tzviya> present+
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08:05:47 <HeatherF> present+ HeatherFlanagan
08:05:50 <duga> present+ duga
08:05:55 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
08:06:07 <clapierre> present+ George_Kerscher
08:06:10 <boris_anthony> present+ BorisAnthony
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08:07:30 <ivan> rrsagent, set draft public
08:07:30 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set draft public', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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08:07:41 <ivan> trackbot, star telcon
08:07:41 <trackbot> Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, star telcon'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
08:07:48 <ivan> trackbot, start telcon
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08:07:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:07:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
08:07:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
08:07:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
08:07:53 <trackbot> Date: 19 September 2016
08:08:00 <garth> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Sep_2016_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Agenda
08:08:19 <ivan> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group F2F First day
08:08:42 <ivan> scribenick: HeatherF
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08:15:23 <rdeltour> present+
08:15:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
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08:16:29 <lrosenth> present+ Leonard
08:16:39 <garth> present+ Garth
08:16:45 <VST-Rick> present+ Rick
08:17:03 <pkra> it is quiet in here. present+ Peter
08:17:04 <liam> present+ Liam
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08:17:13 <HeatherF> tzviya: LEt's talk about that word: Package. package is not just books; it could be journal articles, encyclopedias, church notes
08:17:15 <liam> present+ Peter
08:17:16 <Paul_B> present+Paul
08:17:18 <takeshi_> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
08:17:34 <HeatherF> ... anything we read that isn't just a blog (though maybe a its a blog, too)
08:17:46 <bobbytung> present+ bobbytung
08:17:50 <Paul_B> present+Paul_Belfant
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08:18:07 <HeatherF> s/package/publication
08:18:27 <laurentlemeur> present+Laurent Le Meur
08:18:32 <HeatherF> tzviya: Don't want to discuss "portable" right now. Will discuss in next session. EPUB has a pretty clear description.
08:19:10 <HeatherF> ... we might want to use other words than portability, packaging. We need to be flexible as our use of certain terminology is confusing to certain people.
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08:26:03 <tzviya> q?
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08:29:42 <HeatherF> ... there will have to be compromise and consensus on final words and outcome.
08:30:47 <HeatherF> ... so while there seems to be tension on the github issues list between publishers and web people, it is a really good conversation to have
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08:33:54 <HeatherF> ... Some of the other issues to cover this week will be less controversial.
08:34:03 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Sep_2016_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Agenda
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08:35:15 <HeatherF> ... we will have meetings with other groups this week. Instead of talking about our other documentation, we're going to discuss issues against the pwp-ucr.
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08:35:49 <HeatherF> ... Service Workers has been a hot topic. Jake will join via WebEx if possible when we discuss SWs.
08:36:01 <bob> would you mind using the microphones as I am finding it impossible to hear
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08:38:18 <Vlad> present+
08:38:21 <HeatherF> tzviya: other meetings include CSS (pagination, math). At the same time, APA (extended descriptions). Data recap, and action items will come out from there.
08:39:25 <HeatherF> ... Permissions, Obligations, and Expressions WG (which is not DRM). Use cases doc FTW!
08:39:33 <tzviya> q?
08:41:16 <HeatherF> *We are experiencing technical difficulties. Please stand by.* <Hold Music Here>
08:47:08 <lrosenth> if this computer stuff doesn’t work out - I think I have a new job doing phone support :)
08:47:20 <HeatherF> </Hold Music Here>
08:48:00 <Karen> Karen has joined #dpub
08:48:01 <HeatherF> @marcos dial in, we're ready to start
08:48:05 <marcosc> oki
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08:48:28 <david_wood> present+ david_wood
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08:50:33 <tzviya> say hi
08:50:40 <HeatherF> yay! Hello @marcosc
08:51:06 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Detailed_TPAC_2016_Agenda#PWP-UCR_Fundamental_Issues
08:51:28 <HeatherF> @marcosc we are using a microphone, but we're in a pretty big room
08:51:31 <Karen> Scribenick: Karen
08:51:31 <Karen> Tzviya: we had a detailed agenda
08:51:31 <Karen> …Garth, can you start with a summary
08:51:31 <Karen> Tzviya: we have a fundamental issues agenda
08:51:31 <Karen> …I need to tell people when this meeting is starting
08:51:31 <Karen> …Marcos, say hello
08:51:32 <Karen> Marcos: Hello
08:51:32 <Karen> Ivan: Do you hear us?
08:51:32 <Karen> Tzviya: We ill use the microphones
08:51:32 <Karen> Tzviya: as hopefully you are aware, we have more than 100 issues in a given repository
08:51:36 <Karen> …Ivan and I tried to sort them into categories and we will try to work them to the best of our abilities
08:51:43 <Karen> …The goal is not solve them, but to sort through them
08:51:49 <Karen> …Heather is going to take notes in GitHub
08:51:57 <Karen> …or by branching the repository
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08:52:04 <Karen> …hoping to have a new draft
08:52:09 <Karen> …First issue is 99
08:52:10 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues/99
08:52:29 <Karen> Ivan: before getting into the deep end of the individual issues
08:52:36 <Karen> …whether we can agree with Marcos being around
08:52:50 <Karen> …what are the 3-4 very fundamental questions that are on the table, regardless of which issue they appear in
08:52:58 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
08:52:58 <Karen> …Some problems that spread over 2-3 issues in some sense
08:53:06 <Karen> …We may decide to go one lever higher up
08:53:10 <Karen> present+ Karen
08:53:17 <Karen> …and how that translates into individual issues
08:53:25 <Karen> Leonard: Looking at the fundamentals issue page
08:53:31 <Karen> ..every one of the items on that page
08:53:39 <Karen> …refers to the "P" term we are not talking about yet
08:54:02 <Karen> …I am not sure how we handle we address until we handle the "P" problem; meaning package or portable
08:54:05 <Karen> Ivan: That is one of them
08:54:11 <Karen> …not sure which word to use
08:54:27 <glazou> present+ glazou
08:54:33 <Karen> Ivan: Regardless …how do we handle the online/offline
08:54:37 <Karen> …one area where we want to be
08:54:46 <Karen> …we started going in this direction in a general way
08:54:59 <Karen> …it may be covered by service workers; special things; this is one big area
08:55:09 <Karen> …There is an area of what kind of information do I have to make available
08:55:15 <Karen> …for that type of action to work properly
08:55:22 <Karen> ..whether there is any need at all or not
08:55:32 <Karen> …issues about table of contents, info about available resources
08:55:36 <Karen> …where the terminology gets messy
08:55:43 <Karen> …the EPUB standard refers to those as a package
08:55:52 <Karen> …which in the Web world is usually referred to as manifest
08:55:54 <Karen> …that is one area
08:55:59 <Karen> …Then there is the "P" word
08:56:04 <Karen> …whether we want to provide a package
08:56:18 <Karen> Garth: that thing we are fighting about is the container
08:56:23 <Karen> Ivan: yes, the container as a facility or not
08:56:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
08:56:32 <Karen> …these are the main areas that are the source of disagreement
08:56:41 <Karen> …It think that is the main sticking point
08:56:51 <Karen> …I would like to hear from Marcos
08:56:57 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
08:57:04 <Karen> Bill: Let me walk through the logi
08:57:06 <Karen> c
08:57:19 <Karen> …first, it can be as simple as single document or as complex as a collection
08:57:23 <glazou> +1 to what Bill_Kasdorf  just said
08:57:45 <Karen> …whatever level of complexity comprises a publication must be distributed as a single unit; to be addressed by a single URI or identifier
08:57:47 <Karen> …here is this thing
08:58:04 <Karen> …and whether I fetch a zip file and unpack offline or simply access all components as service works, manifest
08:58:12 <glazou> q+
08:58:18 <Karen> …it is not essential that it be packaged, but it is essential that it be identified
08:58:23 <Karen> Tzviya: Marcos go ahead
08:58:37 <Karen> Marcos: catching up what was just written
08:58:43 <Karen> …i don't have any disagreement that was said
08:58:49 <Karen> …Conceptually we are in agreement
08:59:03 <Karen> …about what we are trying to achieve with use cases; it's how we get there
08:59:15 <Karen> …maybe be premature to start writing solutions at this point
08:59:19 <Karen> ack Daniel
08:59:25 <Rebeca> q+
08:59:32 <tzviya> ack gl
08:59:37 <Karen> Tzviya: the mics are in the middle of the room
08:59:47 <Karen> Glazou: I agree with your point
08:59:55 <Karen> …another goal is to point to every resource inside documents
09:00:03 <Karen> Bill: point that that thing gives you everything you need
09:00:13 <Karen> Glazou: Web has to have URL from top to bottom
09:00:28 <Karen> …if we don't do that we will have problems with scripts, with security, breaking
09:00:35 <Karen> …we have to load whatever is in the publication
09:00:38 <ivan> q?
09:00:44 <Karen> ack Rebecca
09:00:57 <boris_anthony> q+
09:01:08 <Karen> Rebecca: Key problem from academic and scientific publishers is that the content must be completely refereable
09:01:20 <Karen> …one way to get referable is to make a @ systems
09:01:31 <marcosc> q+
09:01:42 <ivan> ack Rebeca
09:01:45 <Karen> …and to cite specific paragraph, in a specific page, in a specific edition of the book
09:01:54 <Karen> [cites Don Quixote example]
09:02:02 <Karen> …I don't care if it's an EPUB or PWP
09:02:08 <Karen> …that's important for the publishers
09:02:12 <Karen> …since ten years ago
09:02:26 <Karen> …we should pay close attention to this approach
09:02:49 <Karen> Tzviya: It's not just a matter of referencing; there needs to be a pattern to referencing the scientific record
09:03:00 <Karen> …there needs to be the scientific record that says this is "the" thing
09:03:15 <tzviya> ack bo
09:03:16 <Karen> …if article is edited or annotated or recalled, still needs to be a record of this
09:03:26 <Karen> Boris: I am brand new to this group
09:03:29 <Karen> …what is lacking I think
09:03:45 <Karen> …we have overlapping, differing concepts and of how those are implemented
09:03:55 <Karen> …if we are to get anywhere, we need to get harmonized
09:04:10 <Karen> …but we are diving into details, but we have to agree on terminologies
09:04:11 <ivan> ack boris_anthony
09:04:14 <Karen> …maybe a formal exercise
09:04:25 <Karen> Tzviya: you are right; may be good way to get us back to the issues
09:04:42 <Karen> Marcos: another clause to Web in general. Would be great to know what other best practices or standards are
09:04:54 <Karen> … Would be great to have some idea of how we are getting that in general
09:05:07 <Karen> …how the scientific community deals with digital publishing and citations
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09:05:19 <ivan> q+
09:05:24 <marcosc> q-
09:05:24 <ivan> ack marcosc
09:05:24 <Karen> Tzviya: Getting back to what Boris said, we need to be careful not to get into the weeds
09:05:30 <hober> present+ hober
09:05:35 <Karen> …in Ivan's characterization, look at the higher issues
09:05:44 <Karen> …in the document Ivan divided the issues into large categories
09:06:01 <Karen> …The concept of publishing; relationships to service workers; the definition of online/offline, and offweb
09:06:08 <Karen> …manifest and requirement and security issues
09:06:14 <Karen> …and maybe talk about filtering
09:06:22 <Karen> …cannot do that in the next 54 minutes
09:06:33 <david_wood> q+ to ask whether anyone is here from VIVO? "VIVO is member-supported, open source software and an ontology for representing scholarship." http://vivoweb.org/info/about-vivo
09:06:34 <Karen> …Let's start with the concept of publication
09:06:38 <Karen> …affects whole of PWP
09:06:39 <garth> Detailed agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Detailed_TPAC_2016_Agenda
09:06:43 <Karen> …we need to discuss this
09:06:47 <Karen> …As Leonard pointed out
09:06:54 <Karen> …we had a lot of discussion
09:06:55 <Karen> ack Ivan
09:06:56 <tzviya> ack iv
09:07:09 <Karen> Ivan: I have the impression on the issue of this discussion that we are converging
09:07:14 <Karen> …that when we talk of a publication
09:07:20 <Karen> …and I'm talking about publication on the Web for now
09:07:32 <Karen> …the fact that we need a concept that refers to a collection of documents
09:07:37 <lrosenth> q+
09:07:43 <Karen> …I would make it a little bit larger and call it resources
09:07:55 <Karen> …data sources are just as essential as an HTML file
09:08:00 <Karen> …so a collection of resources
09:08:13 <Karen> …we used term publication as the term for a collection of things
09:08:27 <Karen> …it is the URL of the collection not the individual items
09:08:35 <Karen> …we have to answer if I de-reference that URL
09:08:47 <Karen> …there were discussions as to whether this was
09:08:52 <Karen> …this concept is something of value
09:09:02 <Karen> ..and it's a concept in this form does not exist on the Web right now
09:09:13 <HeatherF> q+
09:09:15 <Karen> …is this a first point where we can have some sort of a consensus
09:09:17 <marcosc> q+
09:09:33 <tzviya> ack da
09:09:33 <Zakim> david_wood, you wanted to ask whether anyone is here from VIVO? "VIVO is member-supported, open source software and an ontology for representing scholarship."
09:09:33 <Karen> Leonard: I think you are right; it's where we started, it's a good definition
09:09:36 <Zakim> ... http://vivoweb.org/info/about-vivo
09:09:39 <Karen> ack David_Woood
09:10:12 <Karen> David: It seems to me that a lot of these problems have been addressed on the Web
09:10:27 <Karen> …the library community has used consistent URLs to solve problems for 23 years
09:10:53 <glazou> q+
09:10:53 <Karen> …we have W3C recommendations around annotations from SemWeb; ways to represent and describe a group of document, annotating these things
09:10:56 <tzviya> ack lr
09:10:57 <Karen> …are we leveraging those?
09:10:57 <ivan> q?
09:11:05 <Karen> …and I wanted to say about the vivo community
09:11:18 <Karen> …it's a community in academe addressing some similar problems in similar ways
09:11:23 <Karen> …if you are not familiar
09:11:43 <Karen> Leonard: We want to leverage existing standards wherever we can; looked a lot of these things
09:11:48 <boris_anthony> q+
09:11:55 <tzviya> ack he
09:11:57 <Karen> …David we would welcome more pointers to help us solve these problems
09:12:00 <HeatherF> Publication: a collection of resources, each of which has its own URI. (?
09:12:03 <HeatherF> )
09:12:09 <Karen> HeatherF: I want to clarify that I heard the definition correctly
09:12:22 <Karen> …Publication is a collection of resources, each of whom has its own URI?
09:12:29 <Karen> Leonard: He said it better before
09:12:32 <tzviya> ack ma
09:12:38 <Karen> HeatherF: I'll go back and look in irc
09:12:44 <ivan> q+
09:12:44 <lrosenth> Publication is a collection of resources, where there exists a single URL for the entire publication as well as a URL for each resources.
09:12:54 <HeatherF> ack, thanks
09:12:55 <Karen> Marcos: not unique to publications
09:12:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
09:13:01 <Karen> …same problem in Webapplications
09:13:03 <Karen> …a game
09:13:09 <Karen> …there is a finite collection of resources
09:13:17 <Karen> …that go into what we humans perceive as being a work
09:13:24 <Karen> …that problem is not unique to publishing
09:13:35 <Karen> …unique to any application on the Web; we can debate that later on
09:13:39 <Karen> …more pragmatically
09:13:43 <Karen> …I think it was David
09:13:50 <Karen> …was mentioning the longevity of HTML
09:14:01 <Karen> …and how we can string together the documents and the link relationships
09:14:04 <Karen> …and in a more modern way
09:14:19 <Karen> …the concept can define themselves what the relationships area
09:14:24 <Karen> …the application, the book
09:14:33 <Karen> …go to Ivan's point to resources and data
09:14:37 <Karen> …these cannot be broken
09:14:40 <tzviya> q+ to say that this are publishing specific use cases that can be applied to other things, like apps and games
09:14:43 <david_wood> For example, a Dublin Core has a formal description of a "Bibliographic Resource", and a wealth of terms related to it: http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/#terms-BibliographicResource
09:14:44 <Karen> …having a declarative model around that
09:14:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> Suggestion: A publication is a resource or collection of resources with a persistent identity that enables interchange and reference.
09:14:48 <Karen> …HTML support to do that
09:14:51 <tzviya> ack gl
09:14:52 <Karen> …that is all I have to say on that
09:14:55 <Karen> ack Daniel
09:15:13 <Karen> Glazou: I heard something about all the specs we have in HTML, SemWeb
09:15:18 <david_wood> Dublin Core specifically addresses multiple formats, publications, etc. It was developed by the library community.
09:15:24 <Karen> …that's great to hear, but it's almost useless
09:15:37 <Karen> …only 10 percent is implemented by browser vendors or the rendering engines
09:15:45 <Karen> …service workers do a lot of new stuff
09:15:49 <lrosenth> @david_wood - that’s much too limited a definition
09:16:01 <Karen> …some are completely useless; they don't exist from a market point of view
09:16:14 <Karen> …reviewing the potential standards available in the world is one thing, but it is a waste of time
09:16:25 <Karen> …we should focus on the rendering engines of browsers and reading systems that we have
09:16:27 <Karen> …and focus on that
09:16:34 <Karen> …otherwise we will end up in dead @
09:16:34 <tzviya> ack bo
09:16:35 <david_wood> q+ to address implementation of Semantic Web features such as JSON-LD, available in every browser
09:16:42 <boris_anthony> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#h-abstract
09:16:48 <david_wood> q?
09:17:00 <Karen> Boris: In the PWP UCR use cases requirements doc we had put a definition of sort
09:17:03 <Karen> …take out PWP
09:17:15 <marcosc> q+ to address the SemWeb stuff should be built with userland primitives
09:17:17 <Karen> [Boris reads definition]
09:17:24 <Karen> …fundamentally this is what we are talking about
09:17:33 <Karen> …I can imagine a way to build this that can be loaded into a browser
09:17:38 <ivan> q?
09:17:39 <Karen> …we need HTML, and be loaded in
09:17:44 <Karen> …very few things to be figured out
09:17:51 <lrosenth> A Portable Web Publication (PWP) is
09:17:52 <lrosenth> portable
09:17:53 <lrosenth> bounded package of media
09:17:55 <lrosenth> in web-standard formats
09:17:56 <lrosenth> accessible by standard Web protocols
09:17:56 <lrosenth> and consumable by standard Web tools.
09:17:59 <tzviya> ack iv
09:18:01 <Karen> Tzviya: Dave and Jake built this a year ago; we have done the proof of concept
09:18:02 <Karen> ack Ivan
09:18:08 <Karen> Ivan: Two different things
09:18:11 <Karen> …one answer to Marcos
09:18:15 <david_wood> q-
09:18:16 <Karen> …to be precise about what I said
09:18:29 <Karen> …I did not say that what we are talking about is unique to publications
09:18:39 <Karen> …if there are other areas that have similar concerns, that is grea
09:18:40 <Karen> t
09:18:47 <Karen> …this issue is not properly solved
09:18:51 <Karen> …Back to what David said
09:18:57 <Karen> …what I know from my distant past
09:19:06 <Karen> …there are certain issues that the SEmWeb community looked at
09:19:13 <Karen> …and they are more sensitive on certain questions
09:19:17 <Karen> …what is meaning of the URL
09:19:28 <Karen> …and my question of what exactly you get when you de-reference the URL
09:19:37 <Karen> …SemWeb community has been asking these questions for a long time
09:19:48 <Karen> …if we are talking about web docs these are valid quesitons
09:19:54 <Karen> …these are things we have to take into account
09:20:05 <Karen> …they are more on the conceptual level than what is implemented in a browser
09:20:14 <Karen> …it's a different question; a kind of answer to Glazou
09:20:23 <Karen> …I am not talking about RDF rules that are out there
09:20:35 <Karen> …there are long-standing discussions that are out there
09:20:39 <tzviya> ack bi
09:20:48 <Karen> …To be honest, David, I'm not sure if there are any standards that we can use right away in this world
09:21:02 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: To get back to consensus on fundamental terms and concepts
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09:21:13 <Karen> …we need to understand what we mean by publication
09:21:17 <Karen> …and if PWP is that definition
09:21:20 <garth> q?
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09:21:36 <Karen> …a publication is collection of resources...
09:21:43 <ivan> q?
09:21:48 <Karen> [5:14 in minutes
09:22:04 <Karen> …pointing out that a PWP is a particular type of publication, it's a web publication and it's portable
09:22:09 <garth> q+
09:22:16 <Karen> ack Tzviya
09:22:16 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that this are publishing specific use cases that can be applied to other things, like apps and games
09:22:17 <ivan> ack tzviya
09:22:18 <tzviya> ack q
09:22:24 <Karen> Tzviya: thank you, Bill
09:22:24 <tzviya> ack t
09:22:41 <lrosenth> q+
09:22:44 <Karen> …this is not specific to publishing; if we can work on something that is usable for publishing and games and apps
09:22:51 <tzviya> q?
09:22:51 <lrosenth> q-
09:22:55 <tzviya> ack m
09:22:55 <Zakim> marcosc, you wanted to address the SemWeb stuff should be built with userland primitives
09:22:59 <Karen> …and a second doc that is specific to publishing then we will be in a good place
09:23:08 <Karen> Marcosc: I wanted to say
09:23:12 <JakeA> q+ I'm curious about the use of offline for payment apps
09:23:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> Suggestion: A publication is a resource or collection of resources with a persistent identity that enables interchange and reference. A PWP is a web publication, and it's portable.
09:23:24 <glazou> q+
09:23:24 <Karen> …it's all great and fine to explore deeper meanings of de-referencing URIs
09:23:26 <JakeA> of ffff
09:23:28 <JakeA> q-
09:23:30 <Karen> …and this can be done in @ land
09:23:37 <Karen> …but do we have enough stuff in the web platform to do that
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09:23:43 <Karen> …to fetch API and so on
09:23:47 <Karen> …is it in the DOM
09:23:53 <Karen> …you can do
09:24:06 <Karen> …is there enough in the browser; we'll need to experiment with these things
09:24:14 <Karen> …had a hard time hearing the definition of publications
09:24:22 <Karen> …i did like hearing about a resource
09:24:26 <Karen> …interesting
09:24:29 <lrosenth> @jakeA - we’re not talking about apps here, though…so not sure what you are thinking.
09:24:38 <Karen> Tzviya: The definition that Bill proposed is a few lines up
09:24:45 <JakeA> lrosenth: I was thinking "ooops wrong window"
09:24:48 <Karen> …others can review that also
09:24:53 <Karen> [Tzviya rereads]
09:25:03 <Karen> …We can come back to what portable means later
09:25:05 <Karen> ack Garth
09:25:07 <tzviya> ack g
09:25:12 <Karen> Garth: I think it was Boris who pasted in
09:25:17 <Karen> …the abstract definition
09:25:21 <Karen> …we are dancing a bit
09:25:28 <Karen> …that definition is fine
09:25:33 <Karen> …the exciting discussion
09:25:35 <Karen> …on the issues
09:25:39 <Karen> …I am going to repaste
09:25:47 <Karen> …PWP definition
09:25:55 <Karen> …I look at this
09:26:18 <Karen> …we understand much of things; draw a line between top two and bottom three
09:26:24 <tzviya> Garth points to http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#h-abstract
09:26:27 <david_wood> q+ to say that I was not proposing the adoption of SemWeb standards per se; instead, I was suggesting that a PWP is a form of cache which could/should have a canonical URL (perhaps a 303 PURL to a publisher-controlled document described with Web Annotations in Dublin Core metadata). In other words, we can compose many existing standards and best practices to create a DPub-specific approach.
09:26:27 <Karen> …after listening to Marcos' comments on the issues
09:26:38 <Karen> …I think there is a contingent that wants to drop the first two of those
09:26:48 <Karen> …i think Ivan or Tzviya raised that we are all in agreement in the bottom three
09:26:53 <Karen> …that we expect browsers to do
09:27:04 <Karen> …render this thing in its full print fidelity and it will be awesome
09:27:13 <Karen> …and there is a community, probably coming from EPUB
09:27:17 <Karen> …looking at market
09:27:20 <Karen> …as it is today
09:27:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
09:27:30 <Karen> …looking at a snapshot, selling to a vendor
09:27:34 <Karen> …may or not be rendered
09:27:38 <Karen> …so I could make an argument
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09:27:55 <Karen> …that maybe those top two are clearly within the scope and are important
09:28:00 <Karen> …invite publishers in room to chime in
09:28:11 <Karen> …maybe the bounded and packaged media part is not meant to be implemented by brosers
09:28:16 <Karen> …maybe its P,WP
09:28:18 <lrosenth> +1 to @garth and his comments
09:28:21 <Karen> …the support piece that we define
09:28:24 <Karen> …it's a mission
09:28:31 <Karen> …and then the WP and we define that as well
09:28:32 <boris_anthony> q+
09:28:34 <marcosc> q+ then we need to show that EPUB and friends are not enough to the the "P" part.
09:28:37 <Karen> …maybe if we an define that
09:28:42 <Karen> Tzviya: I will jump the queue
09:28:48 <Karen> …had a conversation with Dave last week
09:28:53 <Karen> …perhaps this is the better perspective
09:28:59 <marcosc> q+, to discuss that EPUB and friends are not enough to the the "P" part.
09:29:02 <Karen> …a lot of us working in publishing for a long time
09:29:11 <ivan> q+
09:29:12 <Karen> …is where do we draw line between author and reading system requirements
09:29:28 <Karen> …what is the magic that the user agent does and what we are writing that comes down to publisher requiremetns
09:29:45 <Karen> …so are we talking about something that the publisher has to build into it, or is it the reading side
09:29:50 <tzviya> ack m
09:29:53 <Karen> …that is fundamentally what we are arguing about
09:30:02 <Karen> ack Marcos
09:30:13 <david_wood> q?
09:30:16 <Karen> Marcos: you eventually end up why current formats are @
09:30:26 <Karen> …do all these things
09:30:32 <tzviya> ack d
09:30:32 <Zakim> david_wood, you wanted to say that I was not proposing the adoption of SemWeb standards per se; instead, I was suggesting that a PWP is a form of cache which could/should have a
09:30:36 <Zakim> ... canonical URL (perhaps a 303 PURL to a publisher-controlled document described with Web Annotations in Dublin Core metadata). In other words, we can compose many existing
09:30:36 <Zakim> ... standards and best practices to create a DPub-specific approach.
09:30:45 <garth> q?
09:30:45 <Karen> ack Glazou
09:30:52 <Karen> Glazou: I have two important concerns to express
09:31:01 <Karen> …the first one is related to the proposal that Bill posted
09:31:05 <Karen> [rereads]
09:31:14 <Karen> …I am particularly surprised
09:31:19 <Karen> …we don't even mention publishing
09:31:25 <lrosenth> q+
09:31:28 <Karen> …a publication has to be edited and published
09:31:40 <Karen> …making a resource and making it able to publish technically speaking
09:31:49 <Karen> Bill: that is what I mean by interchange and reference
09:32:09 <Rebeca> q+
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09:32:16 <Karen> Glazou: we are still discussing the main word of the charter of this group
09:32:20 <Karen> …it's important enough to be noted
09:32:27 <Karen> …it seems that that work should be done before
09:32:32 <Karen> …immediately before the publication itself
09:32:46 <Karen> …we are still at the point of the WG and IG are not well defined
09:32:50 <Karen> …we are not at that point
09:32:58 <Karen> Ivan: just to answer Daniel
09:33:01 <Karen> …we have to be precise
09:33:07 <Karen> …this work was not chartered two years ago
09:33:15 <Karen> …it was charted when we recharted a year ago
09:33:30 <Karen> Glazou: the date on the charter is 31 August 2015
09:33:40 <Karen> Ivan: The other point is to make very clear
09:33:47 <Karen> …we did have a long discussion about the terminology
09:33:51 <Karen> …we ended up with documents
09:33:54 <tzviya> q?
09:33:55 <Karen> …for good or for worse
09:33:58 <Karen> …this is the first time
09:34:08 <Karen> …when the non-publisher community got interest in what we are doing
09:34:21 <Karen> …and we began to have feedbacks and thank you Marcos
09:34:27 <Karen> …we were having our internal discussions
09:34:35 <Karen> …and now we are discussing because we have feedbacks
09:34:42 <Karen> …I don't see that as a problem for an IG
09:34:46 <Karen> David_Wood: To clarify
09:34:54 <garth> q?
09:34:57 <Karen> …I put some notes in irc about the relation in my mind as a Web developer
09:35:02 <Karen> …for a PWP
09:35:19 <Karen> …hope you will look up those things up and speak with me and tell me where you think I'm wrong
09:35:20 <garth> q+
09:35:21 <tzviya> ack bi
09:35:24 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
09:35:30 <Karen> Bill: Back to what Garth was pointing out
09:35:34 <Karen> …which I very much appreciate
09:35:40 <Karen> …one way to get closer to consensus
09:35:46 <Karen> …is between the first two items and the last three
09:36:06 <Karen> …if PWP must be able to be bounded and to be portable, distinct from it is bounded and it is portable
09:36:06 <garth> The five attributes of a PWP: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#h-abstract
09:36:15 <Karen> …the publication in the sense it's not a thing
09:36:17 <garth> Perhaps the first two are the "P" and the latter three are a "WP"
09:36:29 <Karen> …that it's able to bounded and interchanged as a thing but cannot exist as a thing
09:36:33 <lrosenth> @garth - I suggested that same thing in the github threads… (so +1)
09:36:38 <Karen> …decades of history in publishing
09:36:49 <Karen> …what we are srtuggling with here
09:37:03 <Karen> …what is intellectual publication distinction
09:37:17 <Karen> …what we are saying is that that intellectual publication, we want a PWP to identify that thing
09:37:29 <tzviya> ack bo
09:37:30 <ivan> ack boris_anthony
09:37:37 <Karen> Tzviya: We are not talking about what is a book and we are not branching into HPPT214
09:37:50 <Karen> Bill: Reacting to able to be
09:38:06 <ivan> s/HPPT214/HTTP-14/
09:38:07 <Karen> Boris: Some reps come in saying these are musts vs coulds or shoulds
09:38:19 <Karen> …My question back to Garth's statement
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09:38:26 <Karen> …we need to be clear what are the things we actually want
09:38:36 <Karen> …to come back to separation of portable bounded
09:38:46 <Karen> …I want to understand what we need browsers to do to be portable and bounded
09:38:49 <tzviya> q?
09:38:58 <Karen> …URI, the constituent parts, and navigation of that content
09:39:08 <Karen> …when I open URI, what does the browser do for me
09:39:18 <Karen> …is it a feature they killed 15 years ago; index next and back
09:39:28 <tzviya> ack iv
09:39:30 <Karen> …what is it we need to be portable and bounded; clarify that
09:39:37 <david_wood> HTTP Range-14 for those interested: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HttpRange14Webography ; short course at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPRange-14
09:39:37 <Karen> Ivan: I want to get back to question of Marcos
09:39:43 <Karen> …that you asked on one of issues as well
09:39:44 <garth> q?
09:39:49 <Karen> …If you are talking about package
09:39:54 <Karen> …why do we touch EPUB at all?
09:40:00 <Karen> …which is a fair question
09:40:07 <Karen> …what we do with Web publicaitons
09:40:20 <Karen> …I think the main issue is that what we want to ensure is a smooth connection between the two
09:40:24 <Karen> …a smooth transition
09:40:34 <Karen> …if we unpackage; may be outdated in its structture
09:40:39 <Karen> …maybe publishers will kill me
09:41:03 <Karen> …but what I want to see is whatever the structure is, it makes it an easy interchange between what browsers can do on the web regardless of packaging
09:41:08 <Karen> …that is where there is a disconnect
09:41:08 <marcosc> q+ the challenge is that things break when you change from one security model to another
09:41:16 <Karen> …EPUB has been looked at from
09:41:21 <marcosc> q+ to the challenge is that things break when you change from one security model to another
09:41:27 <Karen> …Looked at browser manifestation
09:41:31 <Karen> …too many things would require change
09:41:36 <Karen> …the issues that are there with EPUB
09:41:53 <Karen> …if we definte a structure for publication about what browsers can do and they can do 90 percent of it
09:42:11 <Karen> …and then we look at EPUB and deconstruct it and reconstruct it and make it compatable
09:42:18 <Karen> …When I turned script into EPUB
09:42:35 <Karen> …I had to do a long Python script to do that, to publish in EPUB because I had to adapt to what EPUB was requiring
09:42:41 <Karen> …this should have been a smooth thing of two to three lines
09:42:48 <Karen> Tzviya: We are supposed to break soon
09:42:56 <ivan> q?
09:42:57 <tzviya> ack lr
09:43:03 <Karen> …we have four people on the queue; you each have half a minute
09:43:28 <Karen> Leonard; Part of my reason to join this group is to expand the definition beyond a curated definition
09:43:33 <Karen> …no formal curation process
09:43:38 <Karen> …that is one of limitations of EPUB today
09:43:55 <Karen> …it is focused on the needs of professional publishers, which it was designed for
09:44:06 <Karen> …but we should address the needs of any publisher on the web today
09:44:10 <Karen> Rebecca; That's fine
09:44:13 <tzviya> ack g
09:44:19 <tzviya> ack re
09:44:24 <Karen> Garth: I cannot help myself that you can do EPUB and Google docs
09:44:32 <Karen> …thank Ivan for what he said
09:44:37 <Karen> …that gets to the heart of the issue
09:44:50 <Karen> …I thought I was on the precipice of what Marcos said
09:44:57 <Karen> …EPUB is not solution for that and invent something new
09:45:06 <Karen> …as we interate on the bottom three and what a publication is
09:45:16 <Karen> …may run to @…doubt it would be .mobi
09:45:20 <Karen> …maybe related to PDF
09:45:24 <Karen> …round tripping
09:45:27 <tzviya> ack ma
09:45:27 <Zakim> marcosc, you wanted to the challenge is that things break when you change from one security model to another
09:45:30 <Karen> …love if Marcos would say this makes sense
09:45:40 <Karen> Marcos: challenge with going from one to the other
09:45:45 <Karen> …from on web to packaged
09:45:50 <Karen> …and need to change security model there
09:46:13 <Karen> …those in HTTPS world it does affect how the APIs in web browsers work because they are tied to the same origin policy
09:46:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> I suggest a layered definition: What is a publication? What is a web publication? What is a portable web publication?
09:46:23 <Karen> …down to origin that these things may break
09:46:35 <Karen> …there is going to have to be some kind of tradeoff
09:46:39 <Karen> …how dynamic to be
09:47:03 <Karen> …I hope we can treat all of the web as publications and not have monolithic descriptions
09:47:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
09:47:11 <Karen> …there will continue to be issues; some outlined in GitHub
09:47:24 <Karen> Tzviya: Marcos, thank you very much for joining us
09:47:30 <Karen> …we will address this again tomorrow
09:47:36 <Karen> …we will take a break now
09:47:41 <boris_anthony> Must/Can - web users/browsers have always been ok with “breakage”… publishers and epub world … ready to accept that?
09:47:42 <Karen> …and hope to dive into the actual issues tomorrow
09:47:48 <Karen> …this has been a productive conversation
09:48:03 <tzviya> ack b
09:48:07 <Karen> …as Boris reminds us, important not to get too far into the weeds as we are focused on use cases now
09:48:07 <laurentlemeur> q?
09:48:14 <Karen> …we will continue the discussion tomorrow
09:48:24 <Karen> …we'll meet back here in 10 minutes to speak with WCAG WG
09:48:27 <Karen> …they will come here
09:48:33 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:48:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html Karen
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10:15:26 <lrosenth> tviaya: joint meeting of WCAG and DPUB…need to get to lunch so starting...
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10:15:48 <lrosenth> skipping introductions - so we can get work done
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10:15:57 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
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10:16:05 <lrosenth> Andrew and Josh co-chair WCAG
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10:16:11 <lrosenth> no one on the phone
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10:16:33 <tzviya> agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Detailed_TPAC_2016_Agenda#Meeting_with_WCAG
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10:16:59 <lrosenth> brady gets to relax - no micrphones needed...
10:17:32 <lrosenth> publishing has great interest in WCAG and @avneesh is leading the effort to on accessibility and DPUB
10:17:43 <ivan> Topic: Joint meeting with WCAG WG
10:17:51 <rdeltour> DPUB accessibility note:
10:17:52 <lrosenth> acc checker discussions
10:17:52 <rdeltour> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/
10:17:57 <bob> apologies but without the microphone I cant hear what is going on
10:18:00 <David_MacDonald> David MacDonald here from WCAG
10:18:08 <clapierre> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/index.html
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10:18:40 <lrosenth> avneesh: George, Charles & Avnessh will lead the discussions
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10:19:25 <lrosenth> George: our people with one foot in PWP and one foot in EPUB
10:19:31 <ivan> scribenick: lrosenth
10:19:40 <lrosenth> from the beginning WCAG is fundemantal
10:19:58 <lrosenth> to EPUB and publications to date
10:20:12 <bob> thanks
10:20:47 <lrosenth> here’s Charles about the note on DPUB and WCAG, overlaps and deficiencies concerning publications
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10:21:11 <lrosenth> Charles: Acc TF charges with review of WCAG and what is missing...
10:21:23 <tzviya> s/Acc/A11y
10:21:24 <lrosenth> …published note in May on what they found
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10:21:52 <lrosenth> …navigation of an ordered collection is a key item
10:22:11 <lrosenth> …page markers and pagination is another area (aka locators?)
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10:22:35 <lrosenth> …but this may not equate to a printed version (but if there is, they should connected in some way, esp for students)
10:23:23 <lrosenth> …phonetic spelling of proper names is important (as defined by author/publisher)
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10:24:06 <tzviya> q?
10:24:10 <lrosenth> …discoverability of whether a given publication meets their A11y needs.  (this info should be searchable and discoverable before any possible purchase)
10:24:35 <lrosenth> …skippabiity and escapability.  DAISY addresses these but not WCAG.
10:24:51 <lrosenth> …for example, how to exit an equation and move to next item in reading order
10:25:12 <lrosenth> …there may also be issues with Math and Annots - but early days there.
10:26:03 <lrosenth> Avneesh: coming from EPUB, it uses OWP incl HTML and therefore leveraging WCAG.
10:26:18 <lrosenth> …but it also has the same drawbacks of standard web pages
10:26:41 <lrosenth> …so we need (in EPUB) a way to make A11y a first class citizen (requirement)
10:27:10 <lrosenth> …but how to leverage WCAG and not create a new specification particular to EPUB?
10:27:30 <rdeltour> for the record, the EPUB A11y spec
10:27:31 <rdeltour> http://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/accessibility.html
10:27:33 <tzviya> EPUB 3 A11y Docshttp://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/accessibility.html
10:27:36 <lrosenth> …So EPUB spec starts with WCAG and then adds stuff specific to EPUB
10:28:23 <clapierre> http://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/techniques/techniques.html
10:28:36 <lrosenth> …this is already in place and now look to move from EPUB to PWP, how can we move thse things to WCAG
10:28:58 <lrosenth> …and what about certification?
10:28:59 <David_MacDonald> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/
10:29:07 <tzviya> q?
10:29:25 <lrosenth> DAISY is taken on certification as well as an A11y checker, that will be used for certification
10:29:44 <lrosenth> …spec->best practices->A11y checker
10:31:07 <lrosenth> …two great items: (1) collection of documents, currently in EPUB3, (2) discovery (metadata)
10:31:21 <lrosenth> …discovery is collaboration with schema.org
10:31:36 <David_MacDonald> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#keyterms_set-of-documents
10:31:56 <lrosenth> ...other items: page markers and skipping that shoudl be incorporated into WCAG
10:32:27 <lrosenth> …and let’s not forget media overlays and how they can be accessible
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10:32:56 <lrosenth> ..but the two items are the big ones we want to focus on
10:32:57 <Joshue108_> q+ to ask about certificication.
10:33:38 <lrosenth> George: it has been difficult for professors to pick an A11y compliance title.  having the metadata will enable this use case
10:33:57 <lrosenth> …with info about what standards it complies to and perhaps a description
10:34:07 <tzviya> ack jo
10:34:07 <Zakim> Joshue108_, you wanted to ask about certificication.
10:34:15 <lrosenth> Josh: thanks!
10:34:30 <lrosenth> …questions about certifications esp about WCAG.
10:34:33 <AWK> q+ to talk about where WCAG is and has been, and where it is heading
10:34:41 <lrosenth> …what features, by whom and for what purpose
10:34:50 <David_MacDonald> q+
10:34:50 <lrosenth> George: “conforms to”
10:35:04 <tzviya> see http://pending.schema.org/
10:35:19 <lrosenth> …would also include “who” is making the claim, and if there is any confirmation of claim
10:35:36 <lrosenth> …publishers will build their own tooling
10:35:56 <lrosenth> …but the process is important, since A11y involves both machine and human validation.
10:36:28 <lrosenth> …for example, humans to check images
10:36:42 <lrosenth> Josh: so do you require anything form WCAG for that?
10:36:47 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:36:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html ivan
10:36:50 <tzviya> ack a
10:36:50 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to talk about where WCAG is and has been, and where it is heading
10:37:10 <Joshue108_> Thanks George and Avneesh
10:37:15 <lrosenth> AWK: might be helpful to talk about WCAG is at, where its been and where it is going…
10:37:30 <rdeltour> q+, to talk about a11y checker tool
10:37:31 <lrosenth> …but it looked like from the note that the gap analysis was more about the techniques
10:37:48 <lrosenth> …but we know there are many things for which there are not technique (and this may always be the case)
10:38:07 <lrosenth> …but if there missing sucess criteria for DPUB, that they get addressed
10:38:16 <lrosenth> …WCAG since 2008 and large adoption
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10:38:28 <lrosenth> …it is a minimum bar, not a “serve everyone”
10:38:31 <rdeltour> q+ to talk about a11y checker tool
10:38:32 <Joshue108_> q?
10:38:50 <lrosenth> …there is AA and AAA, but there are still gaps. (for example, mobile)
10:39:12 <lrosenth> …touch, DPUB, cognitive, low vision etc.
10:39:25 <lrosenth> …WCAG chartered to work on extensions
10:39:45 <lrosenth> …but there is a potential problem there with disconnnects between them
10:40:01 <lrosenth> …what happens if you want to use a combination that are in conflict with each other
10:40:15 <lrosenth> …one single standard for apps, pubs, etc.
10:40:34 <lrosenth> …proposing to recharter towards WCAG 2.1 with all these various aspects included
10:40:47 <lrosenth> …doing a dot release in the meantime
10:40:53 <lrosenth> …but what do we do wiwth larger issues
10:41:18 <lrosenth> …WCAG is currently focused on content, but things like escapability is more about the UA.
10:41:33 <lrosenth> …so not sure what would make 2.1 or would come after that?
10:41:41 <tzviya> q?
10:41:55 <lrosenth> …trying to increase speed of work, esp. with techniques (now eery 6 months)
10:42:01 <lrosenth> …but moving to continual
10:42:09 <hober> hober has left #dpub
10:42:16 <lrosenth> …so if that is all you needed, that ould be easy
10:42:18 <tzviya> ack d
10:42:58 <lrosenth> David: Are you aware of the WCAG2ICT document?  (links above)
10:43:13 <lrosenth> …there is some material there about how WCAG applies to documents, so please look at it
10:43:17 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/
10:43:47 <lrosenth> …also a link to “set of documents” above, so please reivew that
10:44:00 <lrosenth> …glad to hear that human intervention is a key aspect of conformance
10:44:31 <lrosenth> …in the web world, everybody says they comply with WCAG - but it’s not always true.
10:45:02 <lrosenth> …most publishers will just “check the box”, so be aware
10:45:12 <lrosenth> …what are you “success criteria” for this project?
10:45:26 <jeanne>  q+ to respond to David that clients are already hiring accessibility consultancies to certify
10:45:27 <lrosenth> …WCAG 2.1 is focused on such criteria and it would be good to align yours with ours
10:45:50 <lrosenth> AWK: time for next version is mid-2018 (but not yet chartered)
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10:46:04 <VST-Rick> q+
10:46:13 <lrosenth> …looking for those criterias by December to work from
10:46:30 <lrosenth> …in terms of conformance claims, there is disc. in WCAG (but they are optional)
10:46:49 <lrosenth> …we haven’t discussed if we want to change that for 2.1
10:47:11 <lrosenth> …might be just as effective in a different context (eg. contract)
10:47:44 <lrosenth> avneesh: such things currently being driven by DAISY, in concert with IDPF
10:48:06 <tzviya> ack rd
10:48:06 <Zakim> rdeltour, you wanted to talk about a11y checker tool
10:48:08 <lrosenth> …DAISY OK stamp
10:48:29 <lrosenth> rdeltour: A11y checker is for EPUB, but how relavent for this group?
10:48:32 <lrosenth> …it’s not!
10:48:49 <lrosenth> …it’s just an assistant to the process but coudl be done entirely by humans
10:49:20 <lrosenth> …but what is important, is to join the ACT TF and contribute to the rules that go beyond “the web” towards DPUB/PWP
10:49:28 <tzviya> ack je
10:49:28 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to respond to David that clients are already hiring accessibility consultancies to certify
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10:49:45 <lrosenth> Jeanne: work for A11y consulting firm and getting requests to certify ebooks.
10:49:54 <tzviya> ack r
10:50:03 <lrosenth> Rick: clarification please.
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10:50:22 <lrosenth> …in conversations with laywers, “prove you can do this”.
10:50:38 <lrosenth> …fortunately WCAG is becoming a standard around the world, esp. the US
10:50:58 <lrosenth> …but there is still some fuzzyness about “what has to be in/with the document” and what does the UA/RS do?
10:51:03 <AWK> q+
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10:51:11 <tzviya> ack vs
10:51:16 <tzviya> ack a
10:51:22 <lrosenth> …but it is clear in the marketplace that talking about the file is more well defined, but the UA/RS not so much
10:51:25 <lrosenth> q+
10:51:29 <Avneesh> q+
10:51:48 <lrosenth> AWK: the initial idea was that each of these thigns (as well as authoring tools) woudl be separate guidelines
10:52:02 <lrosenth> …but that the others (such as UA/RS) havent moved forward
10:52:23 <lrosenth> …as part of the claim, you have to include all the tools up the chain
10:52:46 <lrosenth> …most folks don’t test against every platform, tool, reading system, etc.
10:53:07 <lrosenth> …not going to change for 2.1 but for “next major version”, this could well be somethign important to incorporate
10:53:27 <lrosenth> …as we look at the larger set of guidelines
10:53:39 <lrosenth> …users just want to be able to “I did this, so I am OK"
10:53:58 <lrosenth> …but that does indeed mean we need UA guidelines too...
10:54:13 <lrosenth> Rick: interesting convergence of EPUB PWP etc. coming together
10:54:28 <lrosenth> …and we also want folsk that want/need to test and verify these things
10:54:46 <lrosenth> …customers want to be able to point to claims and understand how to validate
10:55:19 <lrosenth> tviya: cutting off the queue in favor of next steps
10:55:39 <tzviya> ack av
10:55:49 <lrosenth> avneesh: we would really like our things in the main doc and not extensions
10:55:56 <lrosenth> q-
10:56:27 <lrosenth> …will have to come up with those success criteria.
10:56:33 <lrosenth> …is there a new TF to be formed is there is another way?
10:56:50 <lrosenth> AWK: WCAG is not able to support another TF, even though we hve interest
10:57:30 <lrosenth> avneesh: techniques first?  would that be a place to start?
10:57:43 <lrosenth> Josh: sure, that would be a good place to start
10:57:56 <lrosenth> …people need to know how to do the work in their environments
10:58:10 <lrosenth> …and fit into existing workflows
10:58:35 <lrosenth> AWK: if youve got suggestions - post it and send us the link for review
10:58:41 <tzviya> techniques: http://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/accessibility.html#refA11YTech
10:58:50 <lrosenth> …this is a lightweight and straitforward process
10:59:28 <tzviya> correct link to techniques: http://www.idpf.org/epub/latest/accessibility/techniques
11:00:06 <lrosenth> tzviya: let’s have a joint call since we have a document already
11:00:16 <lrosenth> …will send this to the WCAG list
11:00:31 <lrosenth> …this is specific to EPUB, not to DPUB or PWP
11:00:53 <David_MacDonald> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria
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11:01:36 <David_MacDonald> the link above is  to what a Success Criteria is and what is required to propose a new Success Critera
11:01:40 <jnurthen> rrsagent, make minutes
11:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html jnurthen
11:02:02 <lrosenth> lrosenth & tzviya: will work out whether it is EPUB or DPUB group that will be collaborating here
11:02:32 <Joshue108_> Theres also an SC template https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/1
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11:02:52 <lrosenth> will be meeting with CSS after lunch - 1 hour(!)
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11:04:50 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:04:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html Karen
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14:28:01 <ivan> trackbot, start telcon
14:28:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:28:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:28:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:28:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:28:06 <trackbot> Date: 19 September 2016
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14:28:42 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:28:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html ivan
14:31:11 <tzviya> chair: garth
14:31:11 <ivan> scribenick: duga
14:31:44 <duga> garth: agenda is recap and overflow. Overflow could take an hour.
14:32:10 <duga> ... wcag and regions discussion - any recap or questions?
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14:32:30 <david_wood> present+ David_Wood
14:33:18 <duga> ... Recap from css: media queries, we got action and decision
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14:33:50 <duga> ivan: Media query for presence of mathml is accepted, but it is not clear when it will really appear in UAs
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14:34:41 <duga> garth: Interesting thing was API for JS to tell UA that support really does exist (polyfill support)
14:35:16 <duga> ivan: Florian has an action to make a specific proposal for the spec
14:35:28 <duga> george: What does this mean for a publisher?
14:36:10 <duga> ivan: Publisher can put in an image element and mathml, then add css that say "if mathml is present, show the mathml, if it is not present then show the image"
14:37:46 <duga> <everyone>: mathml is still in the dom, just not displayed (no css boxes). Would default to image.
14:38:36 <duga> tzviya: document is forthcoming, we will see the specifics when florian is done
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14:39:29 <duga> george: In a11y spec, don't really know what to do with math now. We could just use this as the receommendation?
14:39:51 <duga> ivan: Depends. It still has a long path to implementation.
14:40:25 <duga> george: But the default is image, so we are fine, right?
14:40:50 <pkra> q+
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14:41:05 <duga> ivan: But it will drop the mathml for a current reading system, since it won't know about the media queries
14:41:27 <duga> george: summary from some meeting (apa?)
14:41:52 <tzviya> s/some meeting (apa?)/APA Meeting
14:41:57 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/561
14:41:59 <duga> ... Want to make sure ARIA details are available for everyone
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14:42:21 <tzviya> q+
14:42:46 <garth> q?
14:43:12 <duga> ... Came up with media query to determine if nothing was shown, whether there was some indication of the ARIA details, and whether the details would be shown or not shown depending on the query
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14:44:09 <duga> ... the semantics with aria details is that there is an associated extended description
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14:44:30 <tzviya> s/aria details/aria-details
14:44:38 <duga> david_wood: What about implicit aria semantics?
14:44:55 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#aria-details
14:45:21 <duga> george: if the role == presentation then it is not even in the a11y dom
14:45:42 <garth> q?
14:45:45 <duga> tzviya: aria-details is not a role, it is a property that is always explicit
14:46:08 <duga> ... can add an extended description to any element
14:46:38 <pkra> q-
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14:47:13 <duga> tzviya: 2 questions - did Michael provide the requirements grid?
14:47:19 <duga> george: Yes
14:47:59 <duga> tzviya: This started with an issue on the css issue tracker, was there discussion about moving this out of css?
14:48:46 <duga> george: some time was spent on that, but they didn't get to a place where a browser could display anything
14:49:17 <duga> Bill_Kasdorf_: Is the description external?
14:49:25 <duga> george: only on the existing document
14:49:33 <duga> avneesh: could be external
14:49:49 <duga> george: Yes can internally point to an external thing
14:50:24 <tzviya> q+
14:50:47 <duga> garth: How does it work?
14:51:04 <duga> george: aria-details="#abc"
14:51:20 <duga> ... somewhere there is an abc
14:51:31 <duga> ... abc could be a link.
14:51:46 <duga> tzviya: But may not be supported (external links)
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14:51:57 <tzviya> q-
14:51:59 <duga> ... need to work with html or css folks and making this work
14:52:24 <duga> ivan: Too close to long-desc, so we really have to get it working
14:52:34 <duga> ... from a political standpoint
14:52:51 <duga> david_wood: PWP could get difficult if not live on the web
14:53:12 <duga> garth: Back to external resources and packaging, general problem
14:53:36 <duga> Bill_Kasdorf_: could imagine pointing to external audio file
14:53:42 <duga> george: yes
14:54:19 <duga> ... made clear that publishing community does not see aria as only for disabilities. Anyone could see this if they want
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14:54:43 <duga> ... example: webgl rotating heart, with a description for a 3d printer model for it
14:55:03 <duga> ... made very clear that everyone could find it. One complaint about long-desc
14:55:22 <duga> ... the other thing was in the diagrammer model there are many alt descriptions
14:55:45 <duga> ... [tactile, etc]
14:55:57 <duga> ... depending on settings, one or more of these might be selected
14:56:23 <duga> ... ETS example: low vision needed a description and needed simplified language
14:56:32 <duga> ... pick from the list and present it
14:57:09 <duga> ... there was vehement advocacy for the MQ to provide personalization in the type of resource that was available to provide
14:57:12 <ivan> q+
14:57:53 <duga> romain: Can just use a css selector to display the correct item
14:58:18 <duga> ivan: until the aria comes to agreement with css and html wgs, we can not really rely on it
14:58:21 <clapierre> s/diagrammer/diagrammar/
14:58:25 <clapierre> http://diagramcenter.org/standards-and-practices/content-model.html
14:58:43 <duga> ... hope there is an action item on resolving with those groups
14:58:50 <duga> ... otherwise this feels unfinished
14:59:25 <duga> romain: talking about what "we need to do
14:59:37 <duga> ivan: Who is "we"? Very important question
15:00:06 <duga> romain: What to do with the description is not clear
15:00:39 <garth> q?
15:01:11 <duga> romain: Polyfill could look for the attribute, then display the icon and display the description when it is clicked/selected
15:01:26 <duga> ... maybe we could create the polyfill and see if ti solves the issues
15:02:00 <duga> lrosenth: Need to understand what the correct UX is for various groups and documents
15:02:00 <ivan> q-
15:02:22 <duga> ... exploring is a good thing to do
15:02:42 <duga> george: Rich was saying MQs were at the OS level
15:02:58 <duga> garth: Not sure that is right
15:03:34 <duga> ivan: Not sure if what Rich was saying was facts or wishful thinking? We are getting contradicting reactions
15:03:50 <duga> george: Also heard about the MQ for mathml
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15:04:15 <duga> ivan: The mathml was easy, this sounds harder
15:04:42 <duga> tzviya: Needs fleshing out
15:05:09 <duga> ... need to get response of css wg first to understand what will happen here
15:05:32 <duga> romain: need customizable MQ
15:05:46 <duga> lrosenth: heard at css wg that worried about privacy
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15:06:40 <duga> avneesh: 2 uses of MQ - toggle and user customizability
15:06:56 <duga> garth: Is that all?
15:07:15 <duga> ... other 2 topics at css
15:07:41 <duga> ... hanging-punctuation discussion. Are used in Japan, but not by epub
15:07:58 <duga> ... may get deferred to level 4, leaving at-risk for now
15:08:14 <duga> ... long presentation of grid layout and regions
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15:08:33 <HeatherF> Publishers in the room started salivating over the idea of grid layout and regions.
15:08:37 <duga> ... Nice flow stuff, there was a proposal, but with some pushback from vendors
15:08:39 <tzviya> https://speakerdeck.com/jensimmons/proposal-to-csswg-sept-2016
15:09:03 <duga> ... long term, but of interest to people in this room
15:09:33 <duga> david_wood: coordination with html wg: if we think we are waiting on them, do they know?
15:09:53 <duga> ivan: There are open issues, but don't know what the priority is
15:10:06 <duga> tzviya: I am working on the behind the scenes side
15:10:21 <duga> ... they are really busy, so hard to talk to them
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15:10:51 <duga> lrosenth: Do you want a quick report about the image stuff in css?
15:10:54 <duga> garth: yes
15:11:14 <duga> lrosenth: Topic was HDR high dynamic range images as it relates to color
15:11:21 <duga> ... What are the problems?
15:11:46 <duga> ... css 4 color spec has everything you need, but going forward have to move from ICC4 to ICC max
15:12:40 <lrosenth> iccMAX - http://www.color.org/iccmax-status.xalter
15:12:46 <duga> garth: Spoke to Mike Smith (sideshowbarker)
15:13:07 <duga> ... explained the 5 layers in pwp
15:13:18 <duga> ... some might be browser native, others not
15:13:22 <ivan> Topic: UCR recap
15:13:25 <duga> ... did not get any pushback
15:13:41 <duga> Invited him to tomorrows discussion
15:14:07 <duga> ... We got somewhere this morning, do we want to reformulate
15:14:11 <boris_anthony> q+
15:14:27 <duga> ivan: Reformulation brought forward some issues we can't avoid
15:15:10 <duga> ... need a section on the concept of multiple documents/resources
15:15:19 <duga> ... and need to address online/offline
15:15:35 <duga> ... which gets to manifest, etc
15:15:47 <duga> ... What exactly is the model for handling a PWP?
15:16:01 <duga> ... My model was as much as possible by the browser
15:16:17 <duga> ... but there might be some things (eg TOC) which is not of interest to the web as a whole
15:16:37 <duga> ... therefore, in my naive thinking there is something you can add to a browser to handle those things
15:17:04 <duga> ... I got some sort of pushback from Marcos, extensions are hacky and old
15:17:43 <duga> <everyone>: talking, words words words
15:18:09 <duga> lrosenth: wanted to separate browser from browser engine
15:18:23 <duga> ivan: You are right and something we will have to do
15:18:56 <duga> ... Using my browser, I hit a PWP in my browser and read it (offline even) and not do anything (maybe via extension)
15:19:20 <duga> ... other approach is use the engine, but still need an app that is special
15:19:48 <duga> ... then there is a second part of the ucr document, we know how it works with the browser
15:20:04 <duga> ... for whatever reasons we want a packaged version of the doc, like epub
15:20:25 <duga> ... That thing is separate with it's own use cases.
15:20:35 <duga> ... That part is independent of the browser
15:20:57 <duga> ... Have impression that there is a pushback to get to packaged version from the browser
15:21:11 <duga> ... the UCR has to be cut in two along those lines
15:21:28 <duga> ... These two areas are subject of separate standards
15:22:00 <duga> ... That also gets to a number of technical issues we can put on the table
15:22:30 <duga> ... Views Marcos and Mike as canaries. They represent the web community
15:22:46 <duga> ... very happy about this feedback
15:23:44 <duga> lrosenth: In browser and want to see a PWP. Difference between seeing it with an extension or not
15:23:58 <duga> ... for example, Readium is an extension
15:24:10 <duga> ivan: No, it is an app, not an extension
15:24:22 <duga> billm: don't need to install anything
15:24:36 <duga> ivan: App takes over UI, etc
15:24:48 <HeatherF> Next time, we really really need to stick with a queue, or do without notes!
15:24:54 <duga> ... And other extension don't work with it
15:25:04 <duga> lrosenth: Gave Readium too much credit
15:25:28 <duga> ... if you have to install anything it is no longer the browser, it is the browser engine
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15:25:45 <duga> ivan: Not what he thinks Marcos was saying
15:26:20 <duga> garth: Ivan, you were heading to a place of pro-active tunes to pwp
15:26:38 <duga> ivan: Let's not start editing the UCR doc yet
15:27:21 <duga> ... work in UCR is separated in two, we need to keep that in mind
15:27:34 <duga> garth: is dividing the stack ok as p,wp?
15:27:48 <duga> lrosenth: Yes, that is fine
15:28:06 <duga> boris_anthony: Presenting
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15:28:44 <duga> ... Need to understand the organization and terms
15:29:08 <duga> ... maybe we can discuss on Wednesday?
15:29:48 <duga> ... What do we think of as a minimum viable pwp?
15:30:11 <duga> ... Like minimum viable product from software side
15:31:00 <duga> ... we need to outline what these things mean
15:31:32 <duga> garth: Need to be careful about cutting back to uninteresting
15:31:43 <duga> ... don't want to ship a bad product
15:32:05 <duga> ivan: Don't want to reinvent basic web concepts
15:32:40 <duga> boris_anthony: Just want to understand how we, in the group, think about thi
15:32:44 <duga> ... s
15:33:20 <duga> ivan: For me, an example we need is an article in a scholarly journal
15:33:37 <duga> ... multiple files, is a publication, needs to be archived
15:33:51 <duga> ... might be a single html file, simple css, few images
15:34:03 <duga> ... not necessarily complex
15:34:46 <duga> boris_anthony: A lot of this comes close to progressive web applications
15:34:53 <duga> ... how is pwp different from pwa
15:35:41 <duga> ivan: What exactly is pwa
15:35:58 <duga> tzviya: we can invite someone at some points
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15:36:50 <duga> garth: tomorrow we reconvene at 9 with POE meeting
15:37:33 <duga> ... See if we can get Mike to join around 10 or 10:30
15:37:45 <duga> ... Chairs will figure it out
15:38:04 <duga> ... start with Ivan's hand waving
15:38:14 <duga> ... then maybe we can start slicing the UCR
15:38:30 <duga> ... then maybe some discussion of some tracker issues
15:39:09 <duga> david_wood: Asked if our goal was to produce a format or something beyond it?
15:39:27 <duga> ... seems like this is where we were years ago
15:39:50 <duga> ... Can't figure out the difference between a web archive and a pwp
15:40:05 <duga> ... very confused about what the group is trying to do
15:40:27 <duga> garth: our current definition is very close to a web archive
15:41:45 <duga> david_wood: Still in the situation of not understanding what the group is doing
15:42:05 <duga> ... maybe just myself, but worried that the group doesn't know
15:42:24 <duga> tzviya: Interesting perspective, and have called us out on an important point
15:42:54 <duga> ... you are hearing differing opinions in the group
15:43:31 <duga> david_wood: Was expecting to have consensus by now
15:43:52 <duga> tzviya: I have an opinion, but don't want to discuss it now
15:44:02 <duga> ivan: Need more time
15:44:16 <duga> david_wood: Is it a format or more than a format?
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15:44:22 <duga> garth: Is epub a format?
15:44:26 <duga> david_wood: Yes
15:44:35 <duga> ... ecosystem evolved to use the format
15:45:03 <duga> ... is a pwp a format in the hope it will adopted by industry or some is it broader than that?
15:45:12 <duga> ivan: I think it is a format
15:45:28 <duga> ... just a format bringing EPUB to general web browsing
15:45:46 <duga> david_wood: So it a collection of webby stuff
15:46:11 <duga> ... how is it different than a web archive?
15:46:29 <duga> garth: may well be web stuff packaged in an epub
15:46:42 <duga> ... other people might want a different sort of package
15:46:55 <duga> ... could be multiple package formats
15:47:38 <duga> tzviya: Document is really vague, so it is hard to understand
15:48:16 <duga> ivan: difference between pwp and web archive: the use is different
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15:48:39 <duga> ... archive is an archive. Publication needs the information the make it readable as a publication
15:48:52 <duga> ... things like a TOC for end user, etc
15:49:14 <duga> ... may well be the same as web archive spec (if such exists)
15:49:22 <duga> ... the user community is different
15:49:42 <duga> lrosenth: Other difference, web archive is fully self contained, there is no external comms
15:49:54 <duga> ... for pwp there are use cases to reach out for live things
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15:51:36 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html tzviya
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