13:00:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
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13:00:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
13:00:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
13:00:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
13:00:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
13:00:24 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
13:00:24 <trackbot> Date: 14 September 2016
13:00:59 <Dimitris> Dimitris has joined #shapes
13:01:01 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #shapes
13:01:50 <hknublau> present+
13:02:01 <Arnaud> present+
<Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
<Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.14
13:02:13 <Dimitris> present+
13:02:27 <Dimitris> but on listen-only mode, there is a lot of noise here
13:03:59 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
13:04:03 <ericP> present+
13:05:50 <Arnaud> present+ karen
13:08:09 <AndyS> present+
13:08:37 <kcoyle> present+
13:09:24 <ericP> topic: admin
13:09:26 <ericP> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 8 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-minutes.html
13:09:47 <AndyS> +1
13:10:00 <ericP> +1
13:10:05 <ericP> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 8 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-minutes.html
13:11:39 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #shapes
13:11:46 <ericP> Arnaud: our resolution missed Jose.
13:12:00 <Arnaud> I can hear you guys just fine
13:12:03 <Arnaud> weird
13:12:15 <ericP> next meeting likey 2016.09.20
13:12:38 <Arnaud> let's hear from Ted before we make the final call
13:13:30 <ericP> (tuesda)
13:13:36 <TallTed> present+
13:13:50 <ericP> topic: Disposal of Raised issues
13:14:21 <ericP> ISSUE-177
13:14:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-177 -- Abstract Syntax is disconnected from concrete syntax -- raised
13:14:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/177
13:15:07 <ericP> ericP: ref'd OWL spec defines mapping from RDF graph to OWL AS
13:15:19 <ericP> ... we have to opposite
13:16:46 <TallTed> +1 open it
13:17:17 <ericP> hknublau: I don't want to spend much time on this now since it's for a non-normative doc
13:17:24 <ericP> ... it would be nice to have parsers for the AS
13:17:31 <ericP> ... as was done with OWL
13:18:10 <ericP> ... I would like that more than what we have now but I see this as editorial
13:18:31 <ericP> +1
13:18:40 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-177
13:18:43 <ericP> +1
13:18:46 <kcoyle> +1
13:18:49 <hknublau> +1
13:19:04 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-177
13:19:08 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-105: defined prefixes
13:19:17 <ericP> ISSUE-105
13:19:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- SHACL SPARQL constraints depend on namespaces in a graph, which is not defined -- open
13:19:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/105
13:19:39 <ericP> Arnaud: lots of discussion last week. Can we get closure?
13:19:50 <ericP> q+
13:20:24 <Arnaud> ack ericP
13:22:13 <hknublau> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0023.html
13:22:19 <hknublau> q+
13:22:25 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
13:22:46 <ericP> ericP: i believe we approached consensus noting that SPARQL parts of SHACL are really SPARQL body components.
13:24:47 <AndyS> q+ I don't think the BASE is a significant issue.
13:25:05 <AndyS> q+ to say the BASE is not a significant issue.
13:26:59 <Arnaud> ack AndyS
13:26:59 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say the BASE is not a significant issue.
13:27:27 <ericP> ... noting that we almost agreed to call them that and have a prefix
13:27:35 <ericP> TallTed: Noting that base declaration increases what I'm saying.
13:27:35 <ericP> ... Either we're using SPARQL or we're moving further away.
13:27:35 <ericP> ... Breaking up the "SPARQL Query" is going to confuse users.
13:27:35 <ericP> ... The expert user who sets up all the separate bells in whistles is one thing.
13:27:36 <ericP> ... but we have to consider the person who's maintaining this but doesn't know SPARQL.
13:27:38 <ericP> ... This is a fine enhancement for your SPARQL tool.
13:28:24 <ericP> AndyS: the base should compose
13:28:42 <ericP> ... I would have thought that in the SHACL example that base isn't particularly relevent.
13:28:57 <ericP> TallTed: it may never be relevent but we're making our beast stranger
13:29:12 <ericP> ... as we are tweaking things, we are moving away from using SPARQL
13:29:34 <ericP> AndyS: SPARQL doesn't start until you've parsed it
13:29:55 <ericP> ... all of the proposals deal with how you compose the SPARQL query.
13:30:14 <AndyS> "construct the query string"
13:30:57 <ericP> Arnaud: my understanind aligns with AndyS's: SPARQL doesn't come into play until you construct the string.
13:31:08 <ericP> ... we're free to say how it's constructed.
13:31:31 <ericP> TallTed: we're free to but it's not the best idea
13:31:40 <ericP> ... we're talking about who we make work harder and why
13:32:11 <hknublau> SHACL engines also inject a clause to bind $this into the beginning of the query e.g. $this a ex:Person .
13:32:43 <ericP> ... the questions is whether the prefixes should be moved into an include file
13:33:03 <ericP> ... i've yet to see something which makes this concrete enough that i'm ok with it.
13:34:27 <Dimitris> from my side, resolving prefixes in an automated way can be useful but the actual benefit might not be as big since it will be mostly used in constraint components and hided from the actual use
13:34:46 <Dimitris> s/hided/hidden/
13:35:04 <ericP> Arnaud: what would it take to satisfy you?
13:35:50 <ericP> hknublau: i've seen things that open up maintanance and comprehension problems
13:36:22 <Arnaud> s/hknublau/TallTed/
13:37:14 <ericP> TallTed: we're saying "we've got someone in the group who's doing this" and it tastes weird to me
13:37:46 <hknublau> SPIN's sp:text does this (even based on the prefixes from the TTL file)
13:37:53 <ericP> AndyS: if you mean managing the prefixes from the query then i beleive several of the SPARQL workbenches provide this.
13:38:24 <ericP> ericP: yeah, thye have standard prefixes and/or buttons to embed them
13:39:11 <ericP> hknublau: looking at this proposal, it makes it easy to have the problem with duplicate prefixes
13:39:30 <Arnaud> s/hknublau/TallTed/
13:41:12 <ericP> Arnaud: we saw real preference for either block or composed prefixes last week.
13:42:03 <ericP> TallTed: looking at hknublau's proposal, maybe we need to say "sh:prologue"
13:43:02 <ericP> TallTed: this adds extra complexity
13:43:55 <ericP> AndyS: the prolog is just BASE and PREFIXes
13:43:56 <AndyS> [4]  Prologue  ::=  ( BaseDecl | PrefixDecl )*
13:45:12 <ericP> Arnaud: you said to Peter a number of times "their may be problems but we'll fix 'em"
13:45:29 <ericP> ... you're speculating about whether people will be confused.
13:45:51 <ericP> ... this doesn't seen to enough to kill this.
13:47:19 <ericP> ericP: i'd like to hear from holger about why to break it up
13:47:33 <ericP> hknublau: because otherwise we need a SPARQL parser.
13:47:38 <kcoyle> q+
13:47:42 <ericP> ... the triple notation gives us more control.
13:47:48 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
13:48:26 <ericP> kcoyle: is this only about SPARQL? will it affect parts of SHACL that someone may implement without SPARQL?
13:48:45 <ericP> ... 'cause we aren't requiring that SHACL be implemented in SPARQL
13:49:25 <ericP> hknublau: it affects SHACL/SPARQL and the definitions
13:49:46 <ericP> ... we're using prefixes in the spec
13:50:30 <ericP> +1
13:50:48 <Dimitris> I also agree that if we include prefixes we add them right and not with a string based approach
13:51:18 <ericP> last week's STRAWPOLL: (a) decomposed prefixes in Turtle, (b) precomponsed SPARQL prologue, (c) no prefixes
13:51:39 <TallTed> s/precomponsed/precomposed/
13:53:50 <Dimitris> between a and b I prefer a
13:54:09 <hknublau> Duplicate prefixes should be marked as invalid shapes graph.
13:54:22 <hknublau> It's the safest and clearest for users.
13:54:25 <ericP> TallTed: if we're going to "do it right" with a decomposed prolog, we should do it as an ordered list.
13:55:04 <ericP> we already have a tree structure
13:55:13 <ericP> hknublau: we already have a tree structure
13:55:25 <ericP> ... it's easy to find mistakes and avoid duplications
13:56:15 <ericP> TallTed: we're making it extra easy for people to shoot themselves in the foot.
13:56:44 <ericP> Arnaud: it sounds like TallTed is coming around, potentially combined with an errata on SPARQL.
13:57:42 <ericP> ... please update the proposals page
13:57:58 <ericP> ... next week we will vote on the most popular proposals and have limited discussion.
13:58:00 <hknublau> topic: ISSUE-137
13:58:00 <trackbot> ISSUE-137 -- Missing constraint for language tag -- open
13:58:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/137
13:58:12 <hknublau> q+
13:58:35 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
13:58:57 <ericP> hknublau: we had fruitful discussions
13:59:15 <ericP> ... i proposed LangShape which was correctly deemed too complicated
13:59:46 <ericP> ... i then proposed LanguageIn(l1, l2, ...) which uses SPARQL LangMatch
13:59:56 <ericP> ... i support the latter
14:00:24 <ericP> AndyS: i agree with your checkpoint. i18n feedback could add lots of time.
14:00:54 <hknublau> AndyS: The Internationalization topic is time consuming
14:01:03 <ericP> scribenick: hknublau
14:01:10 <hknublau> thanks mate
14:01:28 <kcoyle> q+
14:01:39 <hknublau> Arnaud: Being pro-active might be good
14:01:40 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
14:02:01 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-137_Missing_constraint_for_language_tag
14:02:20 <hknublau> kcoyle: Which of these are resolved by sh:languageIn
14:03:52 <Dimitris> apologies, I have to drop out
14:04:12 <hknublau> ... (going through the list)
14:08:16 <hknublau> AndyS: Depends on whether SHACL needs to enforce the specific language lists (from the external standards)
14:08:43 <hknublau> kcoyle: The last bullet item is not resolved.
14:09:13 <TallTed> q+
14:09:16 <hknublau> AndyS: Trade-off how common and important that use case is compared to cost
14:09:48 <hknublau> ... language tags can become really complex
14:10:30 <hknublau> kcoyle: Checking valid 2 letter tags is sufficient for most of our use cases
14:10:42 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
14:11:08 <hknublau> TallTed: Prime candidate for shape reuse, some 3rd party could put their shape on github as open source
14:11:38 <hknublau> sh:languageIn points at an rdf:List. That rdf:List can have a URI.
14:12:22 <hknublau> kcoyle: All seems to be reasonably covered.
14:13:38 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-137, adding sh:langShape as outlined in Holger's email http://www.w3.org/mid/1462fb16-9be3-1676-5340-d25c2af618f5%2540topquadrant.com . Meaning: if a value node has a language tag then the string of the language tag itself needs to have the given sh:Shape
14:14:49 <kcoyle> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0033.html
14:15:12 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-137, adding sh:langShape as outlined in Holger's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0033.html
14:15:43 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-137, adding sh:languageIn as outlined in Holger's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0033.html
14:15:46 <hknublau> +1
14:15:53 <AndyS> +1
14:15:55 <kcoyle> +1
14:16:03 <TallTed> +1
14:16:13 <hknublau> (That was my laziness)
14:16:47 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-137, adding sh:languageIn as outlined in Holger's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0033.html
14:22:55 <hknublau> topic: ISSUE-71
14:22:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- SHACL Endpoint Protocol -- open
14:22:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/71
14:23:18 <hknublau> hknublau: Time frame situation advises us to close this topic due to lack of time
14:23:23 <kcoyle> q+
14:23:24 <hknublau> Arnaud: (Agreed)
14:23:29 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
14:24:21 <hknublau> kcoyle: I think Arthur wanted something like this, Resource Shapes had a reference construct
14:24:55 <hknublau> Arnaud: I can check with OSLC, but I am not sure if anyone is willing to fight for this at this stage
14:25:39 <hknublau> ... we cannot close it today, but I expect this to happen
14:26:23 <hknublau> ... expectation is to close it "as is", i.e. doing nothing for such a protocol
14:29:23 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
14:29:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:29:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been hknublau, Arnaud, Dimitris, ericP, karen, AndyS, kcoyle, TallTed
14:29:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/14-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
14:29:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:29:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items