18:01:16 RRSAgent has joined #shapes 18:01:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-irc 18:01:18 RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes 18:01:18 Zakim has joined #shapes 18:01:20 Zakim, this will be SHAPES 18:01:20 ok, trackbot 18:01:21 Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference 18:01:21 Date: 08 September 2016 18:01:35 pano has joined #shapes 18:02:25 marqh has joined #shapes 18:04:30 TallTed has joined #shapes 18:04:34 hknublau has joined #shapes 18:05:00 present + BartvanLeeuwen 18:05:03 present+ 18:05:10 AndyS has joined #shapes 18:06:03 present+ 18:06:32 Arnaud has joined #shapes 18:06:39 present+ 18:06:41 https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.08 18:07:17 present+ 18:07:34 present+ chair: ericP 18:07:35 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.08 18:08:06 Present+ 18:08:38 present+ 18:09:13 scribenick: AndyS 18:09:33 PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 1 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes 18:09:39 present+ 18:10:52 topic: Admin 18:11:17 +1 18:11:22 +1 18:11:28 +1 18:11:29 +1 18:11:31 RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 1 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes 18:11:50 topic: ISSUE-105: defined prefixes 18:12:09 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0003.html 18:12:25 hsolbrig has joined #shapes 18:13:34 present+ hsolbrig 18:14:31 Proposal is to have a mechanism for defining groups of prefixes 18:15:30 EricP: can they be links to the web or will they be in-document? 18:16:07 EricP: does not meet the cut&paste issue 18:16:28 hknublau: pre-binding makes that less valuable 18:16:29 q+ 18:16:31 q+ 18:17:14 orange hung me up 18:17:16 marqh: I agree that snippets can't always be simply copied out so it is not a show stopper to me. 18:17:17 reconnecting... 18:18:11 ... my pref is for "true SPARQL" not parts assembled. 18:19:21 ericP: is that feasible given the rest of SHACL? (Q to marqh and holger) 18:20:26 ack next 18:20:46 marqh: can't quite articulate my uneasiness - I am flagging my concerns ; happy to more on. 18:20:59 ack next 18:21:02 fumbling with buttons... 18:21:40 BartvanLeeuwen: about whether they can be web links. 18:21:58 EricP: I understand that they are "in document" 18:22:32 Holger: in shapes graph - to activate them the sh:prefixes must be next to sh:select. 18:22:45 hknublau: in shapes graph - to activate them the sh:prefixes must be next to sh:select. 18:23:34 EricP: not in named graph so it is a URL and it could be elsewhere by deference. 18:23:47 ack TallTed 18:23:59 ... but usually in shapes graph 18:24:31 TallTed: $ and ? are both variable markers in SPARQL. So it is cut-and-paste. 18:25:31 EricP: unconstrained variables -> more answers. 18:27:43 TallTed: prefixes part of SPARQL and Turtle - potential disastrous to users 18:28:11 ... that this mechanism does not give complete queries. 18:29:42 q+ 18:30:19 ack next 18:33:27 TallTed: it is a security concern 18:34:18 q+ 18:34:52 ack next 18:35:18 Arnaud has joined #shapes 18:36:06 me too 18:36:41 AndyS: Is this deference different to say a shape? a constraint? 18:37:55 q+ 18:38:11 TallTed: I feel it is different. 18:38:19 AndyS: follow up in email? 18:38:40 BartvanLeeuwen: why not write out full queries? 18:38:55 +1 to Bart's question 18:39:07 q+ 18:39:26 EricP: the reason is prefixes get used multiple times. Multiple shapes. 18:40:47 hknublau: from experience, users don't want to repeat the prefixes each time. 18:41:01 ack hknublau 18:41:47 ... parsing looses comments and intended layout 18:41:59 q+ 18:42:48 q- BartvanLeeuwen 18:42:51 ack next 18:43:29 q+ 18:43:41 hsolbrig: this reason exists because turtle prefixes not available to the SPARQL. Can we pass in from the Turtle file? 18:43:44 ack next 18:44:41 EricP: would need a media type, file extension because std libraries may not handle prefixes usefully. 18:44:57 Arnaud has joined #shapes 18:45:29 hsolbrig: Will there be other extensions that need this mechanism? 18:45:46 EricP: yes - eventually. Tempted not to go there ATM. 18:46:28 q+ 18:46:35 ack next 18:46:39 I'm sympathetic to Holger's point but I'm afraid it's a case of being doomed if you do doomed if you don't 18:46:40 EricP: Summary: TopQuadrant see a cost of usablity. 18:46:56 If there was some way that we could make a strong assertion that this isn't intended to be a variable passing mechanism... 18:47:16 TallTed: need a lot of mechanism and language to make this work. 18:47:42 EricP: We are already doing that via pre-binding. 18:48:17 The patches among us will say let's do it, the purists will say let's no 18:48:46 S/patches/practical / 18:49:27 There are examples in the working draft. 18:49:51 The equivalent of runtime #defines in 'C'... 18:54:03 "Prologue" is the right technical term in SPARQL. 18:54:04 https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#rPrologue 18:55:03 EricP : We say the SPARQL query is the prologue (as def by SPARQL) + a query fragment. 18:55:09 q+ 18:55:16 ack next 18:56:15 marqh: need to define details but sounds interesting. 18:57:33 hknublau: looses some benefit but better than nothing. e.g. can't share prefixes across files. 19:00:22 EricP; marqh proposes that there is a processing mode for sh:PrefixDeclaration resources. 19:03:02 plus the declarative model can be queried, while a big string would be harder to use. 19:04:33 EricP: two proposals: Holgers (RDF) and Mark's (prefixes are a string somewhere) 19:04:57 I think Ted s point is fair but maybe this deserves more thinking offline. it's enough for today. I suggest 19:05:54 moving on to next agenda item 19:09:17 STRAWPOLL: (a) decomposed prefixes in Turtle, (b) precomponsed SPARQL prologue, (c) no prefixes 19:09:54 I prefer to see some mechanism for reusing prefixes. As to which, I don't have an opinion ATM. i.e. "not (c)" 19:09:59 aren't we missing decomposed precomposed prologue? 19:10:02 (a) 19:10:35 a: +1 b:+1 c:-0.5 19:10:51 a: +0.9 b:0.1 c:-0.5 19:10:52 a:0, b:0, c:0 19:10:59 a is preferable to b. some way to do this is desirable. I don't see it ready to work yet. 19:11:11 aL -.5b. 0 c: +.5 19:11:15 a: -0.5 b: +0.5 c: 1 19:11:35 q+ 19:11:35 a: +0.1 b: -0.5 c: -0 19:12:09 a: -0.5 b: +0.5 c: 1 19:12:22 marqh: precompose? (reply - (b) is a defined string) 19:12:35 a: +0.9 b: +0.5 c:0 19:12:37 a:0 b:0.5 c: 0.9 19:12:59 a: +1 b: 0 c: -1 19:13:22 q+ 19:13:54 marqh: sending email ... 19:14:35 topic: ISSUE-137: language tag 19:15:00 issue-137 19:15:00 issue-137 -- Missing constraint for language tag -- open 19:15:00 http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/137 19:15:07 BartvanLeeuwen: intro the issue 19:15:24 ... I do a lot of multi-lingual work 19:15:54 https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-137_Missing_constraint_for_language_tag 19:16:15 ... think lang tag handling should be in base SHACL, not an extension. 19:16:24 ack kcoyle 19:16:26 q+ 19:16:35 q- marqh 19:16:59 q+ 19:17:01 q+ 19:17:17 ack next 19:18:16 q- 19:19:01 kcoyle: some large case e.g. valid 3-letter tag are big tables to maintain 19:19:07 ack next 19:19:09 q+ 19:19:32 AndyS: the list of lang tags changes over time 19:20:05 BartvanLeeuwen: Use shapes for UI generation. 19:20:07 I think adding sh:langShape [ sh:in ... ; sh:stem ... ] would cover most missing use cases. 19:20:18 q+ 19:20:20 ack next 19:20:56 (replace sh:stem with sh:pattern above) 19:20:59 kcoyle: easier to work with limited lists library works with all tags. 19:21:01 q+ 19:21:05 acn next 19:21:49 ack me 19:22:03 q+ 19:22:35 ack next 19:23:39 EricP: notes LANGMATCHES in SPARQL that applies the correct rules e.g. en and en-gb , case insenstive 19:24:04 EricP: concern about the whole list. 19:24:33 kcoyle: just adding should not be a problem 19:25:11 hknublau: handle as a external vocabulary. 19:26:23 hknublau: will apply lang proposal to each of the bullet of the use case from karen 19:26:12 topic: Meeting time 19:26:13 Call time? 19:26:15 hknublau, good early early early morning 19:28:19 I can do 9 ET for an hour or on Wed for 1h1/2 19:30:47 Isn't there an online tool to let everyone indicate their availability? 19:32:47 https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html 19:32:56 makes life easier for comparisons... 19:33:21 PROPOSAL: Future meetings Wed 0900 US Eastern 19:33:34 +1 19:33:58 https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20160908&p1=43&p2=47&p3=195 19:33:59 +1 19:34:10 +1 19:34:10 +0.5 19:34:17 +1 19:34:58 +1 19:35:06 +1 19:35:09 +1 19:35:19 RESOLVED: Future meetings Wed 0900 US Eastern 19:35:42 Thanks ericp 19:35:42 thx ericP 19:35:45 AndyS has left #shapes 19:38:20 Tracbot, end meeting 19:43:09 Arnaud_ has joined #shapes 19:44:00 Trackbot, end meeting 19:44:00 Zakim, list attendees 19:44:00 As of this point the attendees have been hknublau, pano, AndyS, kcoyle, simonstey, Arnaud, TallTed, marqh, hsolbrig 19:44:08 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:44:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-minutes.html trackbot 19:44:09 RRSAgent, bye 19:44:09 I see no action items