IRC log of shapes on 2016-09-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:16 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
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Zakim, this will be SHAPES
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ok, trackbot
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Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:01:21 [trackbot]
Date: 08 September 2016
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18:05:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present + BartvanLeeuwen
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present+
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18:06:03 [pano]
present+
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present+
18:06:41 [AndyS]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.08
18:07:17 [kcoyle]
present+
18:07:34 [simonstey]
present+
18:07:35 [ericP]
-> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.08 2016-09-08 agenda
18:08:06 [Arnaud]
Present+
18:08:38 [TallTed]
present+
18:09:13 [AndyS]
scribenick: AndyS
18:09:33 [ericP]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 1 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes
18:09:39 [marqh]
present+
18:10:52 [AndyS]
topic: admin
18:11:17 [kcoyle]
+1
18:11:22 [pano]
+1
18:11:28 [Arnaud]
+1
18:11:29 [simonstey]
+1
18:11:31 [ericP]
APPROVED: Approve minutes of the 1 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes
18:11:50 [ericP]
topic: ISSUE-105: defined prefixes
18:12:09 [hknublau]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0003.html
18:12:25 [hsolbrig]
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18:13:34 [hsolbrig]
present+ hsolbrig
18:14:31 [AndyS]
Proposal is to have a mechanism for defining groups of prefixes
18:15:30 [AndyS]
EricP: can they be links to the web or will they be in-document?
18:16:07 [AndyS]
EricP: does not meet the cut&paste issue
18:16:28 [AndyS]
hknublau: pre-binding makes that less valuable
18:16:29 [TallTed]
q+
18:16:31 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+
18:17:14 [ericP]
orange hung me up
18:17:16 [AndyS]
marqh: I agree that snippets can't always be simply copied out so it is not a show stopper to me.
18:17:17 [ericP]
reconnecting...
18:18:11 [AndyS]
... my pref is for "true SPARQL" not parts assembled.
18:19:21 [AndyS]
ericP: is that feasible given the rest of SHACL? (Q to marqh and holger)
18:20:26 [ericP]
ack next
18:20:46 [AndyS]
marqh: can't quite articulate my uneasiness - I am flagging my concerns ; happy to more on.
18:20:59 [ericP]
ack next
18:21:02 [TallTed]
fumbling with buttons...
18:21:40 [AndyS]
BartvanLeeuwen: about whether they can be web links.
18:21:58 [AndyS]
EricP: I understand that they are "in document"
18:22:32 [AndyS]
Holger: in shapes graph - to activate them the sh:prefixes must be next to sh:select.
18:22:45 [AndyS]
hknublau: in shapes graph - to activate them the sh:prefixes must be next to sh:select.
18:23:34 [AndyS]
EricP: not in named graph so it is a URL and it could be elsewhere by deference.
18:23:47 [ericP]
ack TallTed
18:23:59 [AndyS]
... but usually in shapes graph
18:24:31 [AndyS]
TallTed: $ and ? are both variable markers in SPARQL. So it is cut-and-paste.
18:25:31 [AndyS]
EricP: unconstrained variables -> more answers.
18:27:43 [AndyS]
TallTed: prefixes part of SPARQL and Turtle - potential disastrous to users
18:28:11 [AndyS]
... that this mechanism does not give complete queries.
18:29:42 [ericP]
q+
18:30:19 [ericP]
ack next
18:33:27 [AndyS]
TallTed: it is a security concern
18:34:18 [AndyS]
q+
18:34:52 [ericP]
ack next
18:35:18 [Arnaud]
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18:36:06 [ericP]
me too
18:36:41 [AndyS]
AndyS: Is this deference different to say a shape? a constraint?
18:37:55 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+
18:38:11 [AndyS]
TallTed: I feel it is different.
18:38:19 [AndyS]
AndyS: follow up in email?
18:38:40 [AndyS]
BartvanLeeuwen: why not write out full queries?
18:38:55 [hsolbrig]
+1 to Bart's question
18:39:07 [hknublau]
q+
18:39:26 [AndyS]
EricP: the reason is prefixes get used multiple times. Multiple shapes.
18:40:47 [AndyS]
hknublau: from experience, users don't want to repeat the prefixes each time.
18:41:01 [AndyS]
ack hknublau
18:41:47 [AndyS]
... parsing looses comments and intended layout
18:41:59 [hsolbrig]
q+
18:42:48 [ericP]
q- BartvanLeeuwen
18:42:51 [ericP]
ack next
18:43:29 [ericP]
q+
18:43:41 [AndyS]
hsolbrig: this reason exists because turtle prefixes not available to the SPARQL. Can we pass in from the Turtle file?
18:43:44 [ericP]
ack next
18:44:41 [AndyS]
EricP: would need a media type, file extension because std libraries may not handle prefixes usefully.
18:44:57 [Arnaud]
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18:45:29 [AndyS]
hsolbrig: Will there be other extensions that need this mechanism?
18:45:46 [AndyS]
EricP: yes - eventually. Tempted not to go there ATM.
18:46:28 [TallTed]
q+
18:46:35 [ericP]
ack next
18:46:39 [Arnaud]
I'm sympathetic to Holger's point but I'm afraid it's a case of being doomed if you do doomed if you don't
18:46:40 [AndyS]
EricP: Summary: TopQuadrant see a cost of usablity.
18:46:56 [hsolbrig]
If there was some way that we could make a strong assertion that this isn't intended to be a variable passing mechanism...
18:47:16 [AndyS]
TallTed: need a lot of mechanism and language to make this work.
18:47:42 [AndyS]
EricP: We are already doing that via pre-binding.
18:48:17 [Arnaud]
The patches among us will say let's do it, the purists will say let's no
18:48:46 [Arnaud]
S/patches/practical /
18:49:27 [AndyS]
There are examples in the working draft.
18:49:51 [hsolbrig]
The equivalent of runtime #defines in 'C'...
18:54:03 [AndyS]
"Prologue" is the right technical term in SPARQL.
18:54:04 [AndyS]
https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#rPrologue
18:55:03 [AndyS]
EricP : We say the SPARQL query is the prologue (as def by SPARQL) + a query fragment.
18:55:09 [marqh]
q+
18:55:16 [ericP]
ack next
18:56:15 [AndyS]
marqh: need to define details but sounds interesting.
18:57:33 [AndyS]
hknublau: looses some benefit but better than nothing. e.g. can't share prefixes across files.
19:00:22 [AndyS]
EricP; marqh proposes that there is a processing mode for sh:PrefixDeclaration resources.
19:03:02 [hknublau]
plus the declarative model can be queried, while a big string would be harder to use.
19:04:33 [AndyS]
EricP: two proposals: Holgers (RDF) and Mark's (prefixes are a string somewhere)
19:04:57 [Arnaud]
I think Ted s point is fair but maybe this deserves more thinking offline. it's enough for today. I suggest
19:05:54 [Arnaud]
moving on to next agenda item
19:09:17 [ericP]
STRAWPOLL: (a) decomposed prefixes in Turtle, (b) precomponsed SPARQL prologue, (c) no prefixes
19:09:54 [AndyS]
I prefer to see some mechanism for reusing prefixes. As to which, I don't have an opinion ATM. i.e. "not (c)"
19:09:59 [pano]
aren't we missing decomposed precomposed prologue?
19:10:02 [hsolbrig]
(a)
19:10:35 [AndyS]
a: +1 b:+1 c:-0.5
19:10:51 [hsolbrig]
a: +0.9 b:0.1 c:-0.5
19:10:52 [ericP]
a:0, b:0, c:0
19:10:59 [TallTed]
a is preferable to b. some way to do this is desirable. I don't see it ready to work yet.
19:11:11 [kcoyle]
aL -.5b. 0 c: +.5
19:11:15 [marqh]
a: -0.5 b: +0.5 c: 1
19:11:35 [marqh]
q+
19:11:35 [TallTed]
a: +0.1 b: -0.5 c: -0
19:12:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
a: -0.5 b: +0.5 c: 1
19:12:22 [AndyS]
marqh: precompose? (reply - (b) is a defined string)
19:12:35 [pano]
a: +0.9 b: +0.5 c:0
19:12:37 [simonstey]
a:0 b:0.5 c: 0.9
19:12:59 [hknublau]
a: +1 b: 0 c: -1
19:13:22 [marqh]
q+
19:13:54 [AndyS]
marqh: sending email ...
19:14:35 [ericP]
topic: ISSUE-137: language tag
19:15:00 [simonstey]
issue-137
19:15:00 [trackbot]
issue-137 -- Missing constraint for language tag -- open
19:15:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/137
19:15:07 [AndyS]
BartvanLeeuwen: intro the issue
19:15:24 [AndyS]
... I do a lot of multi-lingual work
19:15:54 [kcoyle]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-137_Missing_constraint_for_language_tag
19:16:15 [AndyS]
... think lang tag handling should be in base SHACL, not an extension.
19:16:24 [ericP]
ack kcoyle
19:16:26 [AndyS]
q+
19:16:35 [ericP]
q- marqh
19:16:59 [hknublau]
q+
19:17:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+
19:17:17 [ericP]
ack next
19:18:16 [hknublau]
q-
19:19:01 [AndyS]
kcoyle: some large case e.g. valid 3-letter tag are big tables to maintain
19:19:07 [ericP]
ack next
19:19:09 [kcoyle]
q+
19:19:32 [AndyS]
AndyS: the list of lag tags changes over time
19:20:05 [AndyS]
BartvanLeeuwen: Use shapes for UI generation.
19:20:07 [hknublau]
I think adding sh:langShape [ sh:in ... ; sh:stem ... ] would cover most missing use cases.
19:20:18 [kcoyle]
q+
19:20:20 [ericP]
ack next
19:20:56 [hknublau]
(replace sh:stem with sh:pattern above)
19:20:59 [AndyS]
kcoyle: easish to work with limited lists lIbrary work work with all tags.
19:21:01 [AndyS]
q+
19:21:05 [ericP]
acn next
19:21:49 [AndyS]
ack me
19:22:03 [hknublau]
q+
19:22:35 [ericP]
ack next
19:23:39 [AndyS]
EricP: notes LANGMATCHES in SPARQL that applies the correct rules e.g. en and en-gb , case insenstive
19:24:04 [AndyS]
EricP: concern about the whole list.
19:24:33 [AndyS]
kcoyle: just adding should not be a problem
19:25:11 [AndyS]
hknublau: handle as a external vocabulary.
19:26:12 [ericP]
topic: meeting time
19:26:13 [Arnaud]
Call time?
19:26:15 [ericP]
hknublau, good early early early morning
19:26:23 [AndyS]
hknublau: will apply lang proposal to each of the bullet of the use case from karen
19:28:19 [Arnaud]
I can do 9 ET for an hour or on Wed for 1h1/2
19:30:47 [hknublau]
Isn't there an online tool to let everyone indicate their availability?
19:32:47 [TallTed]
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html
19:32:56 [TallTed]
makes life easier for comparisons...
19:33:21 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: futures meeting wed 0900 US Eastern
19:33:34 [simonstey]
+1
19:33:58 [TallTed]
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20160908&p1=43&p2=47&p3=195
19:33:59 [Arnaud]
+1
19:34:10 [kcoyle]
+1
19:34:10 [pano]
+0.5
19:34:17 [ericP]
+1
19:34:58 [hknublau]
+1
19:35:06 [hsolbrig]
+1
19:35:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
19:35:19 [ericP]
APPROVED: futures meeting wed 0900 US Eastern
19:35:42 [Arnaud]
Thanks ericp
19:35:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
thx ericP
19:35:45 [AndyS]
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19:38:20 [Arnaud]
Tracbot, end meeting
19:43:09 [Arnaud_]
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19:44:00 [Arnaud_]
Trackbot, end meeting
19:44:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
19:44:00 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been hknublau, pano, AndyS, kcoyle, simonstey, Arnaud, TallTed, marqh, hsolbrig
19:44:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:44:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
19:44:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
19:44:09 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items