13:46:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:46:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-lvtf-irc
13:47:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:47:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:47:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:47:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:47:03 <trackbot> Date: 08 September 2016
13:47:09 <allanj> chair: Jim
13:47:17 <allanj> regrets: shawn
13:47:21 <allanj> present+
13:47:30 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
13:47:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
13:56:03 <allanj> Agenda+ Contrast(minimum) https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
13:56:58 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
13:56:58 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:57:06 <allanj> zakim, who is here
13:57:06 <Zakim> allanj, you need to end that query with '?'
13:57:10 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
13:57:10 <Zakim> Present: Shawn, Laura, JohnRochford, JimAllan, ScottM, Andrew(second_part), AWK, allanj
13:57:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, allanj, MichaelC_, Zakim, trackbot
13:57:26 <allanj> zakim, clear present
13:57:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clear present', allanj
13:57:46 <allanj> present- shawn
13:57:50 <allanj> present- laura
13:58:03 <allanj> present- scottm
13:58:09 <allanj> present- awk
13:58:21 <allanj> present- johnrochford
13:58:36 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
13:58:36 <Zakim> Present: JimAllan, Andrew(second_part), allanj
13:58:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, allanj, MichaelC_, Zakim, trackbot
13:58:57 <allanj> present-Andrew(second_part)
13:59:07 <allanj> present- Andrew(second_part)
13:59:16 <allanj> present- allanj
13:59:32 <allanj> Agenda+ Contrast(minimum) https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
14:33:48 <allanj> allanj has joined #lvtf
14:54:38 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
14:56:49 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
14:57:48 <allanj> agenda+ Action-70 Write Font SC
14:58:03 <allanj> agenda+ Action-71 Text Style Wording
14:58:05 <allanj> agenda+ Action-72 Capitalization SC
14:58:06 <allanj> Agenda+ Action-74 Element level customization SC
14:58:08 <allanj> Agenda+ Action-76 use case for changing font size
14:58:09 <allanj> Agenda+ Action-77 Printing Customized Text SC
14:58:11 <allanj> Agenda+ Action-78 research on user settings
14:59:02 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:00:56 <allanj> present+ JohnR, Scott, Wayne
15:01:37 <allanj> scribe: allanj
15:01:38 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #lvtf
15:01:42 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
15:01:42 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
15:01:43 <Zakim> 1. Contrast(minimum) https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum) [from allanj]
15:01:43 <Zakim> 2. Action-70 Write Font SC [from allanj]
15:01:43 <Zakim> 3. Action-71 Text Style Wording [from allanj]
15:01:44 <Zakim> 4. Action-72 Capitalization SC [from allanj]
15:01:44 <Zakim> 5. Action-74 Element level customization SC [from allanj]
15:01:44 <Zakim> 6. Action-76 use case for changing font size [from allanj]
15:01:45 <Zakim> 7. Action-77 Printing Customized Text SC [from allanj]
15:01:45 <Zakim> 8. Action-78 research on user settings [from allanj]
15:02:09 <allanj> wayne: doesn't like blocks of text. wants all text
15:02:33 <erich_manser> erich_manser has joined #lvtf
15:03:07 <laura> yes I will  be
15:03:54 <laura> webex is having trouble starting
15:03:57 <allanj> scott: blocks of text is a legacy of screen readers
15:08:34 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
15:08:34 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Contrast(minimum) https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)" taken up [from allanj]
15:09:29 <laura> present+ Laura
15:09:32 <allanj> wayne: when wcag says captions, were they talking about multimedia captions.
15:10:43 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:10:57 <allanj> Present+ Erich
15:11:22 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
15:12:21 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
15:13:05 <allanj> jim: seems specific, is there a way to abstract the icons, form field borders, etc.
15:13:30 <allanj>  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
15:16:16 <allanj> Jim: testability, should be 4.5:1 not 3:1
15:17:50 <allanj> awk: how are icons and graphics different.
15:18:27 <allanj> ... is there still exception for "logo"
15:18:41 <allanj> laura: yes there should be.
15:19:12 <allanj> awk: are we creating new, or rewording exiting
15:19:34 <allanj> laura: should add exception clause.
15:20:01 <allanj> awk: need to define icon vs graphics that convey important information.
15:20:18 <allanj> awk: what is important information.
15:20:44 <allanj> laura: see coga def
15:21:47 <allanj> jr: rephrase text - the presentation of visual elements (such as: form field borders, graphics, focus indicators) ...
15:22:47 <allanj> awk: to open is a problem also. lean toward define crisply. No ambiguity.
15:25:15 <allanj> wayne: important graphic - uml diagram or any diagram, chart, etc.
15:25:45 <allanj> ... icon is our catch word for actionable graphics
15:26:46 <allanj> awk: for diagrams and charts - start to be difficult to have multiple color at 4.5:1...what is the impact
15:27:14 <allanj> ... bar chart with 4 bars and colors with labels, ok
15:27:35 <allanj> ... line chart with 5 lines that intersect.
15:27:55 <allanj> q+ visual texture
15:28:14 <erich_manser> could someone repost the Contrast link again, please? getting 'currently no text on page' msg
15:28:32 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
15:29:05 <JohnRochford> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
15:29:07 <ScottM> "Primary foreground and Primary background color must meet requirements..."
15:29:09 <ScottM> and...
15:29:24 <ScottM> "adjacent colors must meet requirements"
15:29:29 <allanj> awk: is there value in breaking apart the sc form controls, separate from graphics, etc.
15:29:44 <allanj> awk: focus indicators at Level A
15:30:18 <allanj> ... pie charts 4.5:1 for adjacent colors is HARD. lots of push back
15:31:20 <ScottM> Borders can be used to change adjacent colors
15:31:32 <AWK> "Color is not used as the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element"
15:31:33 <laura> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/NewWCAGEditRec/results#xq9
15:32:52 <allanj> jim: this is really close.
15:33:04 <laura> From survey: Having colored slices in a pie chart even with sufficient contrast fails 1.4.1 Use of Color. Please add a statement that the slices also need to have differing patterns or text to differentiate them from each other. For example, at a given luminosity, red and green slices can pass minimum contrast requirements however for someone with red / green color blindness they will not know which is red or green and any reference to the "green" slice in the [CUT]
15:33:05 <laura> would lead to confusion or loss of information.
15:33:55 <allanj> awk: adress the delta. if 141 is ok, then need to change the understating document to make clear about charts and graphs
15:34:23 <JohnRochford> Source of quote from Laura: Maureen Kraft, IBM
15:35:18 <allanj> awk: if you have a graphic, can't be color alone. doesn't say that the graphic has to meet contrast.
15:35:50 <allanj> ... poor contast would pass if there were visual patterns on the different colors
15:35:51 <ScottM> what if you can't tell the shape or pattern due to color contrast
15:36:42 <allanj> jim: YIKES!! but true.
15:37:14 <allanj> scott: easy to understand, but hard to word.
15:38:24 <allanj> ... when I test...if I take the image, make it b/w if you can still get meaning by shape or pattern, you are probably ok.
15:42:29 <allanj> recap - pull out focus and form outline, add patterning to understanding document. add contrast of patterning to 1.4.3
15:43:31 <laura> 2.4.7: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2012/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20120726/navigation-mechanisms-focus-visible.html
15:44:11 <ScottM> I like keeping related elements together
15:44:26 <ScottM> we should avoid stuffing too much into one SC
15:45:37 <allanj> wayne: if you can't see the actionable image (left or right arrow) you don't know what you are doing
15:46:03 <allanj> laura: operable, perceivable
15:47:24 <allanj> awk: like idea "actionable"  (icon - arrows, toobar - cut, copy, paste, etc. ) complex color icons may be difficult.
15:48:12 <allanj> ... outlook - reply button - a piece of the icon back arrow, and has words associated with it.
15:48:32 <ScottM> The icon isn't critical as there is text
15:48:51 <ScottM> and there are parts of the icon that are ok and unique
15:50:11 <allanj> awk: if back arrow meets contrast, does the rest of the button have to meet contrast
15:50:43 <ScottM> Outlook has lots of color contrast issues :)
15:50:57 <ScottM> Skype has more though :)
15:53:56 <allanj> wayne: to operate the page you need your focus, form field, actionalble icons.
15:55:19 <JohnRochford> Gotta go. Ciao everyone.
15:56:55 <allanj> laura: will recraft contrast (minimum) to remove graphic.
15:57:35 <allanj> awk: have a modest proposal for graphics to get some feedback from wcag. here is user need,
15:58:31 <allanj> action: jim to write SC for informational graphics, color, visual pattern, etc
15:58:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Write sc for informational graphics, color, visual pattern, etc [on Jim Allan - due 2016-09-15].
16:00:44 <allanj> zakim, close item 1
16:00:44 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, allanj
16:01:03 <allanj> ack vision
16:01:10 <allanj> ack visual
16:01:22 <allanj> ack texture
16:01:47 <allanj> zakim, close item 1
16:01:47 <Zakim> agendum 1, Contrast(minimum) https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum), closed
16:01:49 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:01:49 <Zakim> 2. Action-70 Write Font SC [from allanj]
16:02:20 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
16:02:20 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:02:22 <Zakim> 2. Action-70 Write Font SC [from allanj]
16:02:22 <Zakim> 3. Action-71 Text Style Wording [from allanj]
16:02:22 <Zakim> 4. Action-72 Capitalization SC [from allanj]
16:02:23 <Zakim> 5. Action-74 Element level customization SC [from allanj]
16:02:23 <Zakim> 6. Action-76 use case for changing font size [from allanj]
16:02:23 <Zakim> 7. Action-77 Printing Customized Text SC [from allanj]
16:02:24 <Zakim> 8. Action-78 research on user settings [from allanj]
16:04:51 <ScottM> Poke the hive and see if the bees still live? :)
16:06:44 <allanj> wayne: "a mechanism is available...", content puts obstacles in the way of the user making the information presentable.
16:07:24 <laura> I removed “graphics that convey important information” from https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
16:07:42 <ScottM> Authors (or users) don't always know what to do or if it is possible
16:09:11 <allanj> zakim, open item 4
16:09:11 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Action-72 Capitalization SC" taken up [from allanj]
16:09:32 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Capitalization
16:11:44 <laura> Notes on case conversion: http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1762
16:15:36 <allanj> wayne: All caps is a big issue in blocks of text. a word here or there is not an issue.
16:18:05 <allanj> scott: all caps not so much a low vision issue. no easy mechanism. can use style to make all caps. all lower case may be difficult to read.
16:18:48 <allanj> ... perhaps say - all style sheet to control capitalizaion of blocks of text.
16:19:25 <allanj> ... CamelCase would be difficult to read with out camels.
16:20:37 <allanj> scott: perhaps AAA. should prevent capitalization adjustments in CSS. use capitalization as appropriate for the language.
16:20:43 <AWK> Are we saying that all-caps disproportionately affects LV users?
16:21:05 <AWK> If not, then this probably isn't a good SC candidate
16:22:59 <allanj> wayne: some low vision folks do have problems with all caps.
16:23:57 <laura> I think I completed all of the Contrast (Minimum) changes.
16:25:02 <allanj> Topic: Contrast (minimum)
16:25:09 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
16:27:19 <allanj> scott: why are we not including information icons. such as on dash boards.
16:28:47 <allanj> jim: that should fall into the new SC on information and visual patterns, etc
16:29:16 <allanj> scott: add actionable to short name.
16:32:00 <ScottM> lets let them hash on it for a while :)
16:32:48 <ScottM> woot woot
16:35:50 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
16:35:50 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:35:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Laura, JohnRochford, JimAllan, ScottM, Andrew(second_part), AWK, allanj, Wayne, Erich
16:35:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:35:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:35:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:35:59 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:35:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jim to write SC for informational graphics, color, visual pattern, etc [1]
16:35:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-lvtf-irc#T15-58-31