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18:42:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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18:42:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:42:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:42:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:42:18 <trackbot> Date: 06 September 2016
18:42:42 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:42:48 <clown> agenda: this
18:43:07 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2102: (Rich, All) Create mappings based on features in html 5.1 spec.
18:43:17 <clown> agenda+ Github issue-428 (Cynthia/Joseph): clean up UIA mapping of aria-haspopup
18:43:24 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-1026 (All) Mappings for aria-errormessage
18:43:35 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-676/ACTION-2083: (Joanie, Joseph) Review ATK/AT-SPI states for aria states and properties
18:43:48 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-663: (Rich) Presentational children of some widgets have doclick actions if make presentational who handles the click
18:43:57 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-706/ACTION-980 (Cynthia, All) Describe/define aria related states managed by the user agent
18:44:03 <clown> agenda+ Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
18:44:15 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:44:21 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:44:27 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:44:32 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:53:04 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
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19:01:27 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:15 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:02:19 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:02:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-2102: (Rich, All) Create mappings based on features in html 5.1 spec." taken up [from clown]
19:02:41 <joanie> RS: What I'd like to do is pull in what we have and keep working on it.
19:02:49 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2102/core-aam/core-aam.html
19:02:56 <joanie> RS: Figure was one... It's a cat herding exercise.
19:03:03 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2102/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-figure
19:03:04 <joanie> JS: URL to your branch is above.
19:03:32 <joanie> RS: I put this in here, but what I'm trying to do is get an answer from them about the mappings.
19:03:45 <joanie> JS: Who is "them"? Everybody?
19:03:48 <joanie> RS: Yes.
19:03:54 <joanie> RS: The big problem is relations.
19:04:10 <joanie> RS: For UIA, Cynthia was away.
19:04:16 <joanie> RS: I've not yet talked to James Craig.
19:04:26 <joanie> RS: And then with Form, I thought we were all set.
19:04:41 <joanie> RS: But then there was discussion regarding deprecation of the role.
19:04:55 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:04:58 <joanie> RS: I was talking to Alex Surkov, but then he went away unexpectedly (to me).
19:05:19 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:21 <joanie> RS: On details, and also errormessage, what we did manage to get is two separate relationships.
19:05:25 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2102/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaDetails
19:05:47 <joanie> RS: Surkov gave us these relationships.
19:05:56 <joanie> RS: But Jamie wants to concatenate strings.
19:06:07 <joanie> RS: That's problematic and many people have issues/concerns.
19:06:14 <joanie> RS: And then Jamie went away.
19:06:36 <joanie> RS: I asked Matt to respond with his concerns on the list, which he did.
19:07:08 <joanie> RS: And I've not heard another word from anyone on this matter.
19:07:22 <joanie> JS: So what you've got is a relation error message.
19:07:43 <joanie> RS: Another thing is we don't have consensus on is reverse relations.
19:07:54 <joanie> RS: Joanie would like this.
19:08:12 <joanie> RS: But Jamie/Alex indicate it's expensive.
19:08:34 <joanie> RS: Sure, but then the AT cannot get back unless they cache it.
19:08:59 <joanie> RS: IA2's IDL hasn't been updated in two years.
19:09:31 <joanie> RS: I would pull this in, leave the action item open.
19:09:53 <joanie> RS: Because people keep saying "but I don't see such-and-such in the draft.
19:10:04 <joanie> RS: So merging it in will solve that.
19:10:20 <joanie> JS: If I run into a problem, e.g. with merge conflicts, I'll give it back to you.
19:10:30 <joanie> JS: Otherwise, I'll do it before next Tuesday.
19:10:35 <joanie> RS: What if I make changes?
19:10:48 <joanie> JS: Then I'll have the latest and will merge it in.
19:11:00 <joanie> JS: So we should coordinate.
19:11:18 <joanie> JS: I'll tell you when I'm about to merge so you can stop making changes.
19:11:27 <joanie> JS: I'll aim for tomorrow.
19:12:12 <joanie> JS: Any questions about action-2102?
19:12:23 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:12:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Github issue-428 (Cynthia/Joseph): clean up UIA mapping of aria-haspopup" taken up [from clown]
19:12:46 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/428
19:12:49 <joanie> JS: Cynthia filed this on github, rather than tracker.
19:12:59 <joanie> JS: (URL above)
19:13:12 <joanie> JS: (Reads from github issue)
19:13:38 <joanie> JS: I'm not sure if she wants this information duplicated for each type.
19:13:52 <joanie> RS: So you can have expand/collapse for a region.
19:13:59 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2102/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaHaspopupTrue
19:14:01 <joanie> JS: This is just for aria-haspopup.
19:14:14 <joanie> JS: There's true, false, dialog, listbox, ... a bunch.
19:14:22 <joanie> JS: I assume you don't put expanded on false.
19:14:41 <joanie> JS: But I guess for the others, like dialog, it's expandable.
19:14:58 <joanie> JS: I'll respond on the issue now.
19:15:24 <joanie> RS: The only way you can do it is to put aria-haspop="false" on it.
19:16:57 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/428
19:17:10 <joanie> JS: If you refresh the issue (URL above), you'll see my response.
19:18:00 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:18:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-1026 (All) Mappings for aria-errormessage" taken up [from clown]
19:18:29 <joanie> JS: We've already discussed that as part of 2102.
19:18:41 <joanie> RS: Yes, I lumped them altogether.
19:18:52 <joanie> JS: I should link these issues to one another.
19:20:16 <joanie> JS: They're now linked.
19:20:34 <joanie> RS: Figure is in there, so is feed.
19:21:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:21:11 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-676/ACTION-2083: (Joanie, Joseph) Review ATK/AT-SPI states for aria states and properties" taken up [from clown]
19:21:18 <clown> action-2083
19:21:18 <trackbot> action-2083 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Review and update ATK/AT-SPI2 states in Core AAM -- due 2016-06-21 -- OPEN
19:21:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2083
19:21:20 <joanie> JS: I think I did this.
19:22:01 <joanie> JD: It says it's assigned back to me, but I thought we discussed this and I had nothing more to do.
19:22:02 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2102/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaReadonlyTrue
19:22:15 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaReadonlyTrue
19:22:38 <joanie> JS: If you go to the master branch URL above, ATK/AT-SPI now says (Joseph reads).
19:24:38 <joanie> JD: Looks good to me.
19:25:10 <joanie> JS: So I think we can close this.
19:25:24 <joanie> JD: I have something to mention, but maybe it's a different issue/action.
19:25:46 <joanie> JS: OK, let me close the action.
19:25:47 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/676
19:29:18 <joanie> JD: I had forgotten that there is a one-way AtkRelation type for POPUP_FOR.
19:29:27 <joanie> JS: Does anyone actually use it?
19:29:33 <joanie> JD: Gtk+ does.
19:30:35 <joanie> JD: So I would guess Surkov won't be jazzed about this, but it would be nice to add this to the Core AAM.
19:30:46 <joanie> JD: And if he flat out rejects it, we can always remove it.
19:30:50 <joanie> JD: Thoughts?
19:31:09 <joanie> JS: Fine with me. Is there an IA2 version?
19:31:12 <joanie> JD: I don't know.
19:31:18 <joanie> JS: Turns out there is.
19:31:30 <joanie> JS: Want to create an action?
19:32:58 <joanie> joseph to add RELATION_POPUP_FOR for ATK/AT-SPI2 for the element referenced by aria-haspopup.
19:33:04 <joanie> action joseph to add RELATION_POPUP_FOR for ATK/AT-SPI2 for the element referenced by aria-haspopup.
19:33:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2114 - Add relation_popup_for for atk/at-spi2 for the element referenced by aria-haspopup. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2016-09-13].
19:33:18 <joanie> JS: My question is what table entry does this go into?
19:33:28 <joanie> JD: I don't know.
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19:38:59 <joanie> JD: I'm guessing you should add text to the tables with aria-haspopup, for all but false.
19:39:18 <joanie> JD: Although that's a lot of duplication and not especially elegant, but I have no better suggestions at this time.
19:40:21 <joanie> JS: And this is like Cynthia's expand/collapse control pattern mapping.
19:41:05 <joanie> JS: I guess she wants me to add something about aria-haspopup not specified.
19:41:24 <joanie> s/aria-haspopup/aria-expanded/
19:41:48 <joanie> JS: If the author hasn't added aria-expanded, that's a bad thing.
19:42:02 <joanie> JS: And in UIA, if it's missing it defaults to collapsed.
19:42:04 <clown> action-2114?
19:42:04 <trackbot> action-2114 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add relation_popup_for for atk/at-spi2 for the element referenced by aria-haspopup. -- due 2016-09-13 -- OPEN
19:42:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2114
19:43:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:43:11 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-663: (Rich) Presentational children of some widgets have doclick actions if make presentational who handles the click" taken up [from clown]
19:43:24 <joanie> JS: I think we dealt with this, but it was still open.
19:43:26 <clown> issue-663
19:43:26 <trackbot> issue-663 -- Presentational children of some widgets have doclick actions if make presentational who handles the click -- open
19:43:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/663
19:43:36 <joanie> JS: Rich, I wanted to double-check with you: Is this done?
19:43:58 <joanie> JS: You (Rich) raised this a long time ago.
19:44:54 <joanie> RS: Well, if you have a presentational child with a doclick, then it's no longer presentational.
19:45:15 <joanie> JS: The spec references presentational conflict resolution.
19:45:54 <clown> https://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#conflict_resolution_presentation_none
19:46:02 <joanie> JS: The link above is for that section.
19:46:32 <joanie> JS: (Reads from the spec)
19:46:47 <joanie> RS: Yes, it's been addressed in this section. It's no longer presentational.
19:46:52 <joanie> JS: So we can close this issue?
19:46:56 <joanie> RS: Correct.
19:47:30 <joanie> JS: Closed.
19:47:33 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:47:33 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-706/ACTION-980 (Cynthia, All) Describe/define aria related states managed by the user agent" taken up [from clown]
19:47:43 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here.
19:47:55 <clown> issue-706?
19:47:55 <trackbot> issue-706 -- Describe/define AAPI managed states -- open
19:47:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/706
19:48:01 <joanie> JS: This is that issue about saying something regarding states managed by the user agent.
19:48:02 <clown> action-980?
19:48:02 <trackbot> action-980 -- Cynthia Shelly to Describe/define managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, aria-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2016-07-19 -- OPEN
19:48:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/980
19:48:13 <joanie> JS: Cynthia had questions about this.
19:48:31 <joanie> JS: She has some documention.
19:48:55 <joanie> JS: Cynthia sent you (Rich) email, I believe it was last week.
19:49:02 <joanie> JS: And you answered her.
19:49:37 <joanie> RS: Yes, there are certain things that the browser does. If something is not visible in the window because it's scrolled off, the user agent has states to indicate it's offscreen.
19:49:47 <joanie> RS: Focus is a managed state.
19:49:58 <joanie> RS: Mozilla, I think, has a whole list of these on their site.
19:50:01 <clown> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/States
19:50:13 <joanie> JS: Cynthia links to the above list.
19:50:44 <joanie> RS: Some of these states are managed.
19:52:23 <joanie> JD: Busy strikes me as managed, like focus.
19:55:28 <joanie> JD: I think many of these states can be managed as they are set, unset, and have associated signal even without any ARIA.
19:56:07 <joanie> JS: This issue has been around for quite some time, and it seems to be hard to pin it down.
19:57:05 <joanie> JS: My suggestion is that we check with Cynthia next week.
20:00:43 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/06-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:01:27 <joanie> present+ Richard_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:11 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/06-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:03:30 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:03:30 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Richard_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:03:51 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:04:03 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop