IRC log of lvtf on 2016-08-18

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14:30:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:30:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-irc
14:30:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:30:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #lvtf
14:30:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
14:30:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:30:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:30:41 [trackbot]
Date: 18 August 2016
14:31:31 [jim]
Agenda+ Resolution to Accept Icon font techniques Agenda+ Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3 Agenda+ Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html
14:31:56 [jim]
zakim, delete item 1
14:31:56 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Resolution to Accept Icon font techniques Agenda+ Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3 Agenda+ Gap analysis
14:31:59 [Zakim]
... updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html, dropped
14:32:05 [jim]
agenda?
14:32:26 [jim]
Agenda+ Resolution to Accept Icon font techniques
14:32:40 [jim]
Agenda+ Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3
14:32:55 [jim]
Agenda+ Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html
14:34:00 [jim]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:34:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-minutes.html jim
14:34:34 [jim]
rrsagent, set logs public
14:35:24 [jim]
chair: jim
14:35:30 [jim]
present+
14:35:39 [jim]
present+ shawn
14:44:18 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #lvtf
14:53:15 [JohnRochford]
JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
14:55:53 [ScottM]
ScottM has joined #lvtf
14:57:20 [laura]
laura has joined #lvtf
15:00:15 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #lvtf
15:01:54 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:54 [Zakim]
Present: jim, shawn
15:01:57 [jim]
zakim, open item 2
15:01:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Resolution to Accept Icon font techniques" taken up [from jim]
15:02:39 [shawn]
Present+ Laura, Scott_M, John_R, Wayne
15:02:40 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Icon_Font_with_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative
15:02:59 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-hidden%3Dtrue_on_an_icon_font_that_AT_should_ignore
15:04:01 [jim]
scribe: allanj
15:04:06 [shawn]
Wayne: support
15:04:33 [shawn]
[Shawn didn't get to study it in detail & has to abstain, no objection]
15:04:40 [jim]
RESOLUTION: LVTF approves the 2 Icon Font Techniques
15:05:00 [jim]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-minutes.html jim
15:05:10 [ScottM]
the motion carries!
15:05:25 [laura]
Providing an On-Screen Text Alternative for an Icon Font
15:05:26 [laura]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Icon_Font_with_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative
15:05:33 [laura]
Using aria-hidden="true" on an icon font that AT should ignore
15:05:33 [laura]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-hidden%3Dtrue_on_an_icon_font_that_AT_should_ignore
15:05:35 [jim]
zakim, open next item
15:05:35 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3" taken up [from jim]
15:07:06 [laura]
WCAG Issue 96
15:07:06 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/96#issuecomment-240109904
15:07:15 [laura]
LVTF SC Issue 3
15:07:15 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3
15:07:46 [jim]
originated as WCAG issue in 1996.
15:08:06 [jim]
also, bug filed in 2015
15:08:33 [AWK]
AWK has joined #lvtf
15:08:55 [laura]
jim: we need to add to our requirements doc.
15:09:29 [shawn]
ACTION: Shawn, in User Needs doc, include coverage of contrast of info in graphics
15:09:29 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Shawn,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:09:34 [laura]
shawn: will add it.
15:09:38 [shawn]
ACTION: Shawn in User Needs doc, include coverage of contrast of info in graphics
15:09:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-69 - in user needs doc, include coverage of contrast of info in graphics [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-08-25].
15:10:06 [jim]
created a wiki page for new SC for icon contrast. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
15:10:33 [laura]
Using sufficient contrast for images that convey information: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_sufficient_contrast_for_images_that_convey_information
15:10:39 [laura]
Scribe: Laura
15:10:59 [JohnRochford]
present+ JohnRochford
15:11:13 [AWK]
zakim, agenda?
15:11:13 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:11:14 [Zakim]
3. Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3 [from jim]
15:11:14 [Zakim]
4. Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html [from jim]
15:11:25 [AWK]
agenda+ Testability
15:11:33 [laura]
close: tem 3
15:11:49 [jim]
close: item 3
15:11:59 [jim]
zakim, close item 3
15:11:59 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3, closed
15:12:01 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:01 [Zakim]
4. Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html [from jim]
15:12:13 [jim]
zakim, open item 4
15:12:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html" taken up [from jim]
15:12:25 [AWK]
s/close: tem 3/
15:12:39 [AWK]
s/close: item 3/
15:13:05 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
15:13:11 [laura]
jim: created Wiki pages
15:13:56 [shawn]
zakim, open item 3
15:13:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Issue 3 Minimum contrast of images and icons https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3" taken up [from jim]
15:14:02 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:14:42 [jim]
proposed SC for Graphic Contrast https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
15:14:49 [laura]
shawn: hadn’t read thread. Will read.
15:15:26 [laura]
…can we modify existing SC?
15:15:34 [shawn]
currrent: Contrast (Minimum): The visual presentation of text and images of text has a contrast ratio of at least
15:16:00 [JohnRochford]
q+
15:16:12 [shawn]
maybe: Contrast (Minimum): The visual presentation of information (including text, graphical info) has a contrast ratio of at least
15:16:40 [shawn]
maybe: Contrast (Minimum): The visual presentation of information (including text, graphical info, icons) has a contrast ratio of at least
15:16:47 [shawn]
ack j
15:16:51 [laura]
Laura: need to define information
15:16:53 [ScottM]
q+
15:17:08 [AWK]
q+
15:17:31 [jim]
ack s
15:17:38 [laura]
John: could create the criteria and let WCAG decide.
15:18:29 [Wayne]
q+
15:18:34 [laura]
Scott: how we convey what we what to say is important so people understand it.
15:19:12 [laura]
…mulit colors, pie chart, text.
15:19:37 [jim]
ack a
15:19:43 [AWK]
The current view of the WG is that we will add criteria rather than edit the existing ones.
15:21:31 [laura]
AWK: On question of edit or new SC. Probably new SCs so existing techniques can stay in place.
15:21:50 [jim]
ack w
15:21:56 [laura]
…advice TF write as new SCs.
15:22:35 [jim]
current proposed: Contrast (Minimum) - The visual presentation of images and icons that convey information have a contrast ratio of at least 4.5:1
15:22:38 [laura]
wayne: 2 cases: contast within icons and contrast within images.
15:22:53 [shawn]
[ within icons *and* between the icon and the backgroudn it's on]
15:23:14 [laura]
…first case is easiest. More hesitant on images.
15:24:14 [laura]
…foreground and background is easiest.
15:24:20 [AWK]
Also, SC 1.4.1 requires that people don't rely on color alone to convey information
15:25:38 [laura]
AWK: complex with images.
15:27:46 [laura]
jim: shopping cart icon pale that are not discernible
15:28:06 [laura]
AWK: can’t be too broad.
15:28:19 [shawn]
current draft wroding in <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)> "The visual presentation of images and icons that convey information have a contrast ratio of at least 4.5:1"
15:29:03 [laura]
wayne: can get pixelated with magnifiers.
15:29:14 [shawn]
q+
15:29:22 [jim]
need to include borders on buttons and form controls etc. as well as images on buttons.
15:29:37 [laura]
…icons as part of form controls.
15:31:04 [laura]
shawn: is there some working for “important information”
15:32:24 [laura]
…will do the user needs.
15:33:03 [laura]
wayne: we can come up with definitions.
15:33:57 [laura]
jim: we can get rid of charts and graphs, pictures.
15:34:26 [shawn]
The visual presentation of [important] information (including text, images of text, icons, and graphics) has a contrast ratio of at least...
15:35:20 [JohnRochford]
yes
15:36:29 [AWK]
from COGA doc:
15:36:30 [AWK]
important information information the user may need to complete any action or task including an offline task. information the user may need to know related to safety, risks, privacy, health or opportunities.
15:37:29 [AWK]
from https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/index.html
15:37:32 [shawn]
s/ The visual presentation of [important] information/ The visual presentation of [relevant|important] information
15:39:08 [jim]
awk: actionable items only?
15:39:42 [jim]
laura: no, things that convey information
15:40:23 [jim]
awk: what images that are not actionable are included?
15:40:31 [laura]
AWK: gets complicated.
15:40:50 [jim]
wayne: image of printer, undo icon, etc
15:41:18 [jim]
jim: what about borders on form controls and buttons...or is it a different issue?
15:41:26 [laura]
jim: borders a different issue?
15:41:38 [laura]
wayne: I think so.
15:42:13 [shawn]
q+
15:42:16 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Margins
15:42:22 [shawn]
q-
15:42:29 [laura]
AWK: might fit into another category.
15:42:59 [shawn]
q+ to say think things like field borders fit here...
15:43:15 [shawn]
ack me
15:43:15 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say think things like field borders fit here...
15:44:28 [laura]
shawn: seems like borders are the same thing. Needed to use the interface.
15:44:47 [jim]
shawn: border contrast is important to using a page
15:45:28 [laura]
…default contrast.
15:45:52 [jim]
shawn: default contrast needed for all things on page - text, images of text, borders, buttons, actionable things...not pictures, non-informative images
15:46:11 [laura]
AWK: leave out stuff that we cannot achieve.
15:46:52 [jim]
awk: are people with disabilities disporportionally affected or is it everybody.
15:47:02 [laura]
AWK: are PWD disproportionately affected?
15:47:08 [laura]
Shawn: yes.
15:48:17 [shawn]
s/Shawn: yes./Shawn: Yes. If no field border, then usability for all. If light gray borders, then see-able by some, but not by some with low vision.
15:48:55 [jim]
laura: information in pictures?
15:49:13 [jim]
like charts? or something different. need examples
15:51:17 [jim]
information in image - need an onscreen caption?
15:51:34 [laura]
Scott: everything that is not decorative.
15:52:30 [AWK]
This feels like one to verify if COGA is working on it. We should avoid redundant work
15:52:43 [laura]
jim: how about requiring on screen text?
15:52:55 [AWK]
(the "have a caption if the graphic has information in it" item)
15:53:46 [ScottM]
captioning is a different issue I think
15:53:55 [JohnRochford]
Info graphics would need longdescs, not alt text.
15:54:02 [laura]
Jim: will ask coga.
15:56:01 [laura]
jim: will add notes to Wiki page.
15:56:11 [jim]
Topic: SC wiki pages
15:56:21 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Margins
15:56:48 [laura]
jim: new wiki page in WCAG format.
15:57:06 [JohnRochford]
Ciao everyone. On to next meeting.
15:58:06 [laura]
Sections include: SC Shortname, SC Text, Related Glossary additions or changes, What Principle and Guideline the SC falls within, Description, Benefits, Testability, Techniques
15:59:25 [jim]
Topic: testability
15:59:53 [laura]
AWK: testability is a problem. Avoid saying something is clear.
16:00:06 [laura]
…needs to be evauated or measured.
16:01:23 [laura]
…how it is tested may vary from technology to technology. But it needs to be testable
16:03:49 [jim]
Topic: reflow to single column
16:03:57 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column
16:04:24 [Wayne]
3.2.2 Reflow to Single Column Content must be flexible enough to reflow visually in a one column format using standard features or extensions of the user agent. Tabular data may appear as tables, so long as lines of text within table cells fit within a viewport. If no user agents for a given content type has a mechanism for reconfiguring the content into one column, then an alternative...
16:04:25 [Wayne]
...format must be provided that does support this requirement.
16:05:09 [laura]
jim: tables can be too large. Images can be an exception too.
16:06:26 [laura]
wayne: has a definition of tabular data.
16:07:27 [Wayne]
Definition: A set of tabular data is two-dimensional array of data points for which inclusion of a data point within a row and column conveys meaning about the data point that cannot be derived from the data within the point itself. Data points may be complex objects like list, paragraphs or even nested sets of tabular data.
16:07:36 [ScottM]
I like it
16:08:25 [laura]
…we can think about it for a week.
16:08:35 [Wayne]
If no user agents for a given content type has a mechanism for the users to …xxx…, then an alternative format must be provided that does support this requirement.
16:08:47 [laura]
wayne: created a general mechanism.
16:10:57 [laura]
jim: relates to accessbility support
16:11:38 [laura]
…doesn’t know if it is an SC.
16:12:50 [jim]
could be a definition in WCAG similar to "accessibility supported"
16:13:54 [laura]
…gets back to “until user agents” in WCAG 1
16:14:10 [laura]
wayne: not the same.
16:14:45 [laura]
…would like to streamline the language.
16:16:35 [laura]
Zakim, next item
16:16:35 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html" taken up [from jim]
16:16:55 [jim]
Topic: Line Length https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Line_Length
16:17:04 [Wayne]
3.2.1 Line Length Content must be flexible enough to enable the user to choose the length of lines in the visual presentation. If no user agents for a given content type has a mechanism for users to choose the length of lines, then an alternative format must be provided that does support this requirement.
16:18:18 [jim]
Current wording: Line Length - For the visual presentation of blocks of text, a mechanism is available such that width is user adjustable between no less than 5 characters and no more than 80 characters or glyphs (40 if CJK).
16:19:10 [Wayne]
Failure: If a user must use bi-directional scrolling (horizontal and vertical) to perceive the text within a document object, then the content fails Line Length.
16:20:02 [laura]
jim: do we need change of definition for 148?
16:20:18 [laura]
…intent is just informative.
16:20:36 [jim]
https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html
16:22:51 [laura]
jim: thoughts?
16:23:48 [laura]
…think we will get push back on 5 characters.
16:24:24 [jim]
blocks of text?
16:24:50 [jim]
is this page or individual paragraphs, or elements
16:25:27 [Wayne]
Content must be flexible enough to enable the user to choose the length of lines of text in the visual presentation.
16:26:03 [laura]
wayne: we are talking about the visual presentation.
16:26:43 [laura]
…users needs ability to have a specialized visual presentation.
16:26:59 [laura]
…that we can see.
16:27:23 [laura]
…magnifiers aren’t that good.
16:27:57 [Wayne]
Definition: A line text within a presentation is a sequence printable symbols from a natural language, that display physically as a line segment that may be horizontal or vertical.
16:27:58 [laura]
jim: 2 different tasks.
16:28:32 [jim]
reading vs interacting with web page/application
16:29:38 [laura]
jim: what are the requirements?
16:29:56 [laura]
wayne: can not be longer than x.
16:31:11 [laura]
shawn: if it automatically reflows that passes right?
16:31:17 [laura]
wayne: yes.
16:31:27 [jim]
what about long words - need auto hypenation
16:31:35 [shawn]
s/ if it automatically/ if resize window & it automatically
16:31:54 [laura]
wayne: yes, long words - need auto hypenation.
16:33:13 [laura]
wayne: user can choose line length.
16:34:16 [laura]
jim: user adjustable?
16:34:22 [laura]
wayne: yes.
16:35:31 [laura]
…bidirectional scrolling is not acceptable.
16:35:57 [laura]
wayne: will push to wiki.
16:36:04 [jim]
wayne: SC unidirectional scrolling is the only way to go.
16:37:14 [laura]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:38:29 [laura]
trackbot, end meeting
16:38:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:38:29 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jim, shawn, Laura, Scott_M, John_R, Wayne, JohnRochford
16:38:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:38:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:38:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:38:38 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:38:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn, in User Needs doc, include coverage of contrast of info in graphics [1]
16:38:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-irc#T15-09-29
16:38:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn in User Needs doc, include coverage of contrast of info in graphics [2]
16:38:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-lvtf-irc#T15-09-38