14:47:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:47:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-irc
14:47:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
14:47:57 <aphillips> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:47:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:48:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:48:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:48:02 <trackbot> Date: 11 August 2016
14:48:10 <aphillips> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:48:22 <aphillips> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2016Aug/0002.html
14:48:33 <aphillips> agenda+ Agenda
14:48:38 <aphillips> agenda+ Action Items
14:48:42 <aphillips> agenda+ Info Share
14:48:46 <aphillips> agenda+ Radar
14:48:53 <aphillips> agenda+ Bug Triage
14:49:05 <aphillips> agenda+ Finish discussion of direction in ActivityStreams with Social WG
14:49:14 <aphillips> agenda+ Discussion language in ActivityStreams with Social WG
14:49:27 <aphillips> agenda+ Policy on CR Transitions
14:49:32 <aphillips> agenda+ AOB?
14:49:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillips
14:49:46 <aphillips> rrsagent, set logs world
14:50:33 <aphillips> Meeting number: 310 818 734
14:50:40 <aphillips> Meeting password: i18n
14:52:03 <fsasaki> present+ felix
14:53:40 <aphillips_> aphillips_ has joined #i18n
14:54:33 <aphillips_> Present+ addison
14:54:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillips_
14:54:47 <cwebber2> hey, where's the dial-in info again?
14:55:30 <r12a> https://mit.webex.com/mw3100/mywebex/default.do?service=1&siteurl=mit&nomenu=true&main_url=%2Fmc3100%2Fe.do%3Fsiteurl%3Dmit%26AT%3DMI%26EventID%3D68735943%26UID%3D512661622%26Host%3DQUhTSwAAAAI-idXrn9ZmbpNbjif4z6lF8bOHPVxidNpYcdsPzoefKGn8ahpwRPvk-mMhQn92AbjtzxXDa3UhVUFzdS09IBPv0%26FrameSet%3D2%26MTID%3Dm3ee7048d4e18e9fb0dab8be94da54734
14:55:57 <r12a> oh, that looks rather long, maybe i should paste from the agenda
14:57:11 <r12a> cwebber2, https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m78201e27974c03949e089c11e487a449
14:57:22 <cwebber2> r12a:
14:57:24 <cwebber2> thx
14:57:25 <aphillips_> 617-324-0000
14:57:36 <aphillips_> the meeting number and password are in the minutes:
14:57:41 <r12a> Meeting number: 310 818 734
14:57:41 <r12a> Meeting password: i18n
14:57:41 <aphillips_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillips_
14:58:09 <r12a> s/Meeting password: i18n//
14:58:12 <r12a> s/Meeting password: i18n//
14:58:58 <aphillips_> present+ Chris Webber
14:59:43 <aphillips_> present+ Sandro
14:59:54 <aphillips_> present+ Steve
15:00:40 <Steve_Atkin> Steve_Atkin has joined #i18n
15:01:08 <aphillips_> present+ Richard
15:02:20 <aphillips_> agenda?
15:02:26 <aphillips_> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:02:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Agenda" taken up [from aphillips]
15:02:56 <rhiaro> present+
15:03:34 <aphillips_> agenda?
15:05:34 <aphillips_> sandro: problem is that relevant editors not present
15:05:39 <aphillips_> ... trying to ping
15:05:45 <JcK_> JcK_ has joined #i18n
15:05:57 <aphillips_> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from aphillips]
15:06:06 <aphillips_> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:06:47 <r12a> regrets+ DaveClarke
15:06:50 <r12a> present+
15:08:22 <aphillips_> action-545?
15:08:22 <trackbot> action-545 -- Richard Ishida to Create draft of bidi-in-plain-text and start email thread on public-i18n-bidi -- due 2016-08-04 -- OPEN
15:08:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/545
15:08:31 <aphillips_> close action-545
15:08:31 <trackbot> Closed action-545.
15:08:43 <aphillips_> actin-546?
15:08:47 <aphillips_> action-546?
15:08:47 <trackbot> action-546 -- Addison Phillips to Update the metadata wiki page to discuss language/direction metadata problems in e.g. json -- due 2016-08-04 -- OPEN
15:08:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/546
15:08:52 <aphillips_> close action-546
15:08:52 <trackbot> Closed action-546.
15:09:11 <aphillips_> ScribeNick: aphillips_
15:09:19 <aphillips_> Present+ JcK
15:09:36 <aphillips_> agenda?
15:09:57 <aphillips_> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:09:57 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Radar" taken up [from aphillips]
15:10:08 <aphillips_> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/radar/
15:11:07 <aphillips_> richard: svg2, nikos replies with 2 weeks
15:12:53 <aphillips_> agenda?
15:13:17 <aphillips_> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar
15:13:30 <aphillips_> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/
15:14:33 <aphillips_> richard: pushed new copy of specdev
15:14:50 <aphillips_> ... putting in the information was necessary for direction and such
15:15:06 <aphillips_> ... trying to keep separation about resources or blocks or etc.
15:15:12 <aphillips_> ... added new explanation
15:15:15 <aphillips_> ... please have a look
15:15:25 <r12a> http://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/
15:16:05 <aphillips_> richard: on encoding
15:16:19 <aphillips_> ... a lot fo encoding went into html
15:16:24 <aphillips_> s/fo/of/
15:17:47 <aphillips_> action: addison: ping Martin regarding progress on Unicode in XML update
15:17:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-547 - Ping martin regarding progress on unicode in xml update [on Addison Phillips - due 2016-08-18].
15:18:16 <aphillips_> agenda?
15:18:37 <cwebber2> hi
15:19:14 <aphillips_> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:19:14 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Finish discussion of direction in ActivityStreams with Social WG" taken up [from aphillips]
15:19:14 <cwebber2> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Activity_Streams_direction_notes
15:19:23 <aphillips_> chris: read the above document
15:19:27 <aphillips_> ... looks pretty good in general
15:19:39 <aphillips_> ... sections on what to do with multi paragraphs
15:19:46 <aphillips_> ... activity streams, two approaches
15:19:55 <aphillips_> ... 1. name field, not more than sentence
15:20:05 <aphillips_> ... that is the one where we can't hav emarkup
15:20:05 <r12a> q+
15:20:16 <aphillips_> ... 2. other is multiple para types
15:20:19 <aphillips_> ... question for WG
15:20:32 <aphillips_> ... is how to handle RTL/LTR in html considered solved?
15:20:36 <aphillips_> ack r12a
15:20:46 <aphillips_> q+
15:20:53 <aphillips_> richard: dunno when you read
15:20:58 <aphillips_> ... been changing
15:21:07 <aphillips_> ... if have direction auto on text
15:21:14 <aphillips_> ... use first strong for each paragraph
15:21:22 <aphillips_> ... alignment of chars depends on paras
15:21:30 <aphillips_> ... if thinking of using first strong, then already there
15:21:46 <aphillips_> richard: in first copy, both plain and marked text
15:21:59 <aphillips_> ... addison pointed out that is base direction is what's needed
15:22:06 <aphillips_> ... for text input by user, they have to provide it
15:22:10 <aphillips_> ... inside the text
15:22:22 <aphillips_> ... the multi paragraph thing is not an issue
15:22:26 <aphillips_> ack aphillips_
15:23:04 <r12a> q+
15:24:02 <aphillips_> ack r12a
15:24:18 <aphillips_> addison: (discusses why only outside of the text is needed)
15:24:37 <aphillips_> richard: trying to capture why properties are undesirable
15:24:51 <aphillips_> ... what you're left with is two paporaches
15:25:00 <aphillips_> ... first strong or direction metadata in each string
15:25:14 <aphillips_> q+ ap
15:25:29 <aphillips_> ... if rely on first strong, but some situations where
15:25:33 <aphillips_> ... and markup is one
15:25:46 <aphillips_> ... putting RLM at start of string doesn't help, except as a flag
15:25:59 <aphillips_> ... diff by putting character vs. metadata no different
15:26:06 <aphillips_> ... ideas why prefer former
15:26:17 <aphillips_> chris: seem in general that first strong acceptable
15:26:28 <aphillips_> ack ap
15:28:38 <r12a> q+
15:29:18 <sandro> Just insert.   That's perfect.
15:30:07 <sandro> ack r12a
15:30:49 <sandro> q+
15:33:28 <cwebber2> someone's going to need to convey this conversation to evan / james
15:34:01 <rhiaro> yeah I think sandro will
15:34:03 <rhiaro> and it's minuted
15:37:01 <cwebber2> {"name": "foo", "nameDir": "foo"}
15:37:51 <r12a> q+
15:37:52 <cwebber2> {"name": "foo", "nameDir": "rtl"}
15:39:52 <aphillips> aphillips has joined #i18n
15:39:52 <sandro> q-
15:41:02 <cwebber2> q+
15:41:28 <aphillips> ack r12a
15:41:49 <aphillips> ack cwebber
15:42:09 <aphillips> chris: for single way if possble
15:42:18 <aphillips> ... technically markup optional
15:42:32 <aphillips> ... but always have to process as-if it has markup
15:42:42 <jasnell> I'm very sorry all
15:42:46 <aphillips> +1
15:42:54 <jasnell> I didn't have the call in my calendar and completely forgot about it
15:43:20 <aphillips> RLM<p> -> <div dir=rtl><p>
15:44:07 <sandro> jasnell, I think we've got it figured out.
15:44:28 <r12a> jasnell, do you need call info ?
15:45:31 <rhiaro> Tel: +1-617-324-0000 (Webex)
15:45:31 <rhiaro> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m78201e27974c03949e089c11e487a449
15:45:31 <rhiaro> Meeting number: 310 818 734
15:45:34 <jasnell> if it would still be useful for me to join, then yes
15:45:48 <cwebber2> jasnell: it would be useful for us to summarize discussion to you
15:45:52 <cwebber2> both for your sake and ours ;)
15:46:00 <jasnell> ok, dialing in
15:46:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillips
15:46:57 <sandro> Summary:  AS2 consumers will use 'first-strong' for determining base direction, and AS2 producers MUST anticipate that, and add a leading RLM or LRM  or whatever if they know the base direction.
15:47:43 <aphillips> richard: modify slightly to say "add RLM/LRM where necessary"
15:48:05 <sandro> sandro: rather not have producers do analysys,
15:48:06 <aphillips> chris: don't want to analyze the sstring
15:48:12 <aphillips> +1
15:48:30 <sandro> aphillips: but don't add a marker if there's one there already
15:48:34 <aphillips> james: for document or by field?
15:48:39 <aphillips> richard: by field
15:48:54 <aphillips> ... spec would need to require that base direction is indicator
15:49:18 <aphillips> chris: is there a spec that defines first-strong?
15:49:21 <sandro> aphillips: html 'auto' or bidi spec
15:49:26 <aphillips> sandro: already link to bidi spec
15:49:38 <sandro> s/sandro/jasnell/
15:50:20 <aphillips> addison: look for the character if assembling markup
15:50:36 <aphillips> ... otherwise bidi handles it
15:51:56 <sandro> aphillips: When you're putting a markup string, eg summary, into HTML, then you look for the leading marker and set that as dir on the enclosing HTML
15:51:57 <aphillips> RLMfoo bar -> <bdi dir=rtl>foo bar
15:52:19 <aphillips> name: "RLMfoo bar"
15:53:01 <jasnell> name: "..RLMfoo bar"
15:53:46 <aphillips> richard: when you consume things, when you create strings in AS
15:53:53 <aphillips> ... don't expec tto change markup in any way
15:53:59 <aphillips> ... might put an RLM before it
15:54:10 <aphillips> ... ensure that first strong character in the string
15:54:18 <aphillips> ... in a non-markup string represents the base direction
15:54:51 <aphillips> richard: if dealing with markup, the markup will be strongly LTR (which is wrong)
15:54:58 <aphillips> ... need to look past
15:55:01 <aphillips> ... the markup
15:55:07 <aphillips> richard: set this up so you can detect
15:55:13 <aphillips> q+
15:55:21 <aphillips> ack aphillips
15:57:20 <aphillips> got a name property
15:57:31 <aphillips> ... look at the property, the first character is an RLM
15:57:48 <aphillips> ... know the direciton, wrap this thing in a <span dir=RTL>
15:57:53 <aphillips> next scenario
15:58:03 <aphillips> ... have a name with weakly direcitonal characters
15:58:19 <aphillips> ... then see a strongly rtl character
15:58:27 <aphillips> ... put in div with dir rtl
15:58:30 <aphillips> next
15:58:37 <aphillips> ... strong ltr to start
15:58:46 <aphillips> richard: one other possible, only numbers
15:58:57 <aphillips> ... have to have an assumptiont hat ltr is default
15:59:15 <aphillips> as scanning, if not start with rlm, then assume ltr
15:59:55 <aphillips> addison: can say auto
16:00:01 <aphillips> summary fields
16:00:12 <aphillips> ... hopefully starts with markup that says rtl/ltr
16:00:24 <aphillips> ... if punctuation/numbers and then markup
16:00:36 <aphillips> unless first strong is rtl
16:03:55 <aphillips> addison: directly consume the string
16:04:01 <aphillips> richard: RLM is just a marker
16:04:14 <aphillips> ... chris's idea of meta on every strong more logical
16:04:26 <aphillips> ... produciton of json is what's important here
16:04:33 <cwebber2> I advocated metadata as a separate supplement to one string ;)
16:05:12 <aphillips> james: for producers and consumers: MUST or...
16:05:13 <cwebber2> (and I no longer think it's a good thing for as2 anyway)
16:05:52 <cwebber2> btw I'm afraid even if we say MUST
16:05:55 <cwebber2> it'll become a SHOULD
16:05:58 <cwebber2> in practice
16:06:34 <cwebber2> gotta go, all
16:06:48 <aphillips> thanks chris
16:06:50 <cwebber2> sounds like things mostly resolved though :)
16:11:59 <r12a>     using @language in the context seems to be the most straightforward way to provide language information in a unilingual situation
16:11:59 <r12a>     where properties are localised into multiple languages, then ...Map should be used for all natural language text
16:11:59 <r12a>     where one property is in a different language than others, use @language for the default language, and use ...Map for properties containing values in other languages.
16:17:14 <aphillips> james: will spend afternoon writing
16:17:48 <aphillips> ... throw comments on the pull request
16:18:03 <aphillips> richard: put something in the open issue so we can see
16:18:09 <aphillips> james: okay
16:18:15 <aphillips> richard: or refer to issue in pull request
16:18:38 <aphillips> ... notification on i18n label
16:19:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillips
16:19:19 <aphillips> Topic: AOB
16:30:00 <aphillips> zakim, bye
16:30:00 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been felix, addison, Chris, Webber, Sandro, Steve, Richard, rhiaro, r12a, JcK
16:30:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:30:46 <aphillips> rrsagent, bye
16:30:46 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:30:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: ping Martin regarding progress on Unicode in XML update [1]
16:30:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/11-i18n-irc#T15-17-47