IRC log of i18n on 2016-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:47:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:47:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:47:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:47:57 [aphillips]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:47:59 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:01 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:48:01 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
14:48:02 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:48:02 [trackbot]
Date: 11 August 2016
14:48:10 [aphillips]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:48:22 [aphillips]
14:48:33 [aphillips]
agenda+ Agenda
14:48:38 [aphillips]
agenda+ Action Items
14:48:42 [aphillips]
agenda+ Info Share
14:48:46 [aphillips]
agenda+ Radar
14:48:53 [aphillips]
agenda+ Bug Triage
14:49:05 [aphillips]
agenda+ Finish discussion of direction in ActivityStreams with Social WG
14:49:14 [aphillips]
agenda+ Discussion language in ActivityStreams with Social WG
14:49:27 [aphillips]
agenda+ Policy on CR Transitions
14:49:32 [aphillips]
agenda+ AOB?
14:49:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillips
14:49:46 [aphillips]
rrsagent, set logs world
14:50:33 [aphillips]
Meeting number: 310 818 734
14:50:40 [aphillips]
Meeting password: i18n
14:52:03 [fsasaki]
present+ felix
14:53:40 [aphillips_]
aphillips_ has joined #i18n
14:54:33 [aphillips_]
Present+ addison
14:54:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillips_
14:54:47 [cwebber2]
hey, where's the dial-in info again?
14:55:30 [r12a]
14:55:57 [r12a]
oh, that looks rather long, maybe i should paste from the agenda
14:57:11 [r12a]
14:57:22 [cwebber2]
14:57:24 [cwebber2]
14:57:25 [aphillips_]
14:57:36 [aphillips_]
the meeting number and password are in the minutes:
14:57:41 [r12a]
Meeting number: 310 818 734
14:57:41 [r12a]
Meeting password: i18n
14:57:41 [aphillips_]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillips_
14:58:09 [r12a]
s/Meeting password: i18n//
14:58:12 [r12a]
s/Meeting password: i18n//
14:58:58 [aphillips_]
present+ Chris Webber
14:59:43 [aphillips_]
present+ Sandro
14:59:54 [aphillips_]
present+ Steve
15:00:40 [Steve_Atkin]
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15:01:08 [aphillips_]
present+ Richard
15:02:20 [aphillips_]
15:02:26 [aphillips_]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:02:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Agenda" taken up [from aphillips]
15:02:56 [rhiaro]
15:03:34 [aphillips_]
15:05:34 [aphillips_]
sandro: problem is that relevant editors not present
15:05:39 [aphillips_]
... trying to ping
15:05:45 [JcK_]
JcK_ has joined #i18n
15:05:57 [aphillips_]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:05:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from aphillips]
15:06:06 [aphillips_]
15:06:47 [r12a]
regrets+ DaveClarke
15:06:50 [r12a]
15:08:22 [aphillips_]
15:08:22 [trackbot]
action-545 -- Richard Ishida to Create draft of bidi-in-plain-text and start email thread on public-i18n-bidi -- due 2016-08-04 -- OPEN
15:08:22 [trackbot]
15:08:31 [aphillips_]
close action-545
15:08:31 [trackbot]
Closed action-545.
15:08:43 [aphillips_]
15:08:47 [aphillips_]
15:08:47 [trackbot]
action-546 -- Addison Phillips to Update the metadata wiki page to discuss language/direction metadata problems in e.g. json -- due 2016-08-04 -- OPEN
15:08:47 [trackbot]
15:08:52 [aphillips_]
close action-546
15:08:52 [trackbot]
Closed action-546.
15:09:11 [aphillips_]
ScribeNick: aphillips_
15:09:19 [aphillips_]
Present+ JcK
15:09:36 [aphillips_]
15:09:57 [aphillips_]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:09:57 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Radar" taken up [from aphillips]
15:10:08 [aphillips_]
15:11:07 [aphillips_]
richard: svg2, nikos replies with 2 weeks
15:12:53 [aphillips_]
15:13:17 [aphillips_]
15:13:30 [aphillips_]
15:14:33 [aphillips_]
richard: pushed new copy of specdev
15:14:50 [aphillips_]
... putting in the information was necessary for direction and such
15:15:06 [aphillips_]
... trying to keep separation about resources or blocks or etc.
15:15:12 [aphillips_]
... added new explanation
15:15:15 [aphillips_]
... please have a look
15:15:25 [r12a]
15:16:05 [aphillips_]
richard: on encoding
15:16:19 [aphillips_]
... a lot fo encoding went into html
15:16:24 [aphillips_]
15:17:47 [aphillips_]
action: addison: ping Martin regarding progress on Unicode in XML update
15:17:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-547 - Ping martin regarding progress on unicode in xml update [on Addison Phillips - due 2016-08-18].
15:18:16 [aphillips_]
15:18:37 [cwebber2]
15:19:14 [aphillips_]
zakim, take up agendum 6
15:19:14 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Finish discussion of direction in ActivityStreams with Social WG" taken up [from aphillips]
15:19:14 [cwebber2]
15:19:23 [aphillips_]
chris: read the above document
15:19:27 [aphillips_]
... looks pretty good in general
15:19:39 [aphillips_]
... sections on what to do with multi paragraphs
15:19:46 [aphillips_]
... activity streams, two approaches
15:19:55 [aphillips_]
... 1. name field, not more than sentence
15:20:05 [aphillips_]
... that is the one where we can't hav emarkup
15:20:05 [r12a]
15:20:16 [aphillips_]
... 2. other is multiple para types
15:20:19 [aphillips_]
... question for WG
15:20:32 [aphillips_]
... is how to handle RTL/LTR in html considered solved?
15:20:36 [aphillips_]
ack r12a
15:20:46 [aphillips_]
15:20:53 [aphillips_]
richard: dunno when you read
15:20:58 [aphillips_]
... been changing
15:21:07 [aphillips_]
... if have direction auto on text
15:21:14 [aphillips_]
... use first strong for each paragraph
15:21:22 [aphillips_]
... alignment of chars depends on paras
15:21:30 [aphillips_]
... if thinking of using first strong, then already there
15:21:46 [aphillips_]
richard: in first copy, both plain and marked text
15:21:59 [aphillips_]
... addison pointed out that is base direction is what's needed
15:22:06 [aphillips_]
... for text input by user, they have to provide it
15:22:10 [aphillips_]
... inside the text
15:22:22 [aphillips_]
... the multi paragraph thing is not an issue
15:22:26 [aphillips_]
ack aphillips_
15:23:04 [r12a]
15:24:02 [aphillips_]
ack r12a
15:24:18 [aphillips_]
addison: (discusses why only outside of the text is needed)
15:24:37 [aphillips_]
richard: trying to capture why properties are undesirable
15:24:51 [aphillips_]
... what you're left with is two paporaches
15:25:00 [aphillips_]
... first strong or direction metadata in each string
15:25:14 [aphillips_]
q+ ap
15:25:29 [aphillips_]
... if rely on first strong, but some situations where
15:25:33 [aphillips_]
... and markup is one
15:25:46 [aphillips_]
... putting RLM at start of string doesn't help, except as a flag
15:25:59 [aphillips_]
... diff by putting character vs. metadata no different
15:26:06 [aphillips_]
... ideas why prefer former
15:26:17 [aphillips_]
chris: seem in general that first strong acceptable
15:26:28 [aphillips_]
ack ap
15:28:38 [r12a]
15:29:18 [sandro]
Just insert. That's perfect.
15:30:07 [sandro]
ack r12a
15:30:49 [sandro]
15:33:28 [cwebber2]
someone's going to need to convey this conversation to evan / james
15:34:01 [rhiaro]
yeah I think sandro will
15:34:03 [rhiaro]
and it's minuted
15:37:01 [cwebber2]
{"name": "foo", "nameDir": "foo"}
15:37:51 [r12a]
15:37:52 [cwebber2]
{"name": "foo", "nameDir": "rtl"}
15:39:52 [aphillips]
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15:39:52 [sandro]
15:41:02 [cwebber2]
15:41:28 [aphillips]
ack r12a
15:41:49 [aphillips]
ack cwebber
15:42:09 [aphillips]
chris: for single way if possble
15:42:18 [aphillips]
... technically markup optional
15:42:32 [aphillips]
... but always have to process as-if it has markup
15:42:42 [jasnell]
I'm very sorry all
15:42:46 [aphillips]
15:42:54 [jasnell]
I didn't have the call in my calendar and completely forgot about it
15:43:20 [aphillips]
RLM<p> -> <div dir=rtl><p>
15:44:07 [sandro]
jasnell, I think we've got it figured out.
15:44:28 [r12a]
jasnell, do you need call info ?
15:45:31 [rhiaro]
Tel: +1-617-324-0000 (Webex)
15:45:31 [rhiaro]
15:45:31 [rhiaro]
Meeting number: 310 818 734
15:45:34 [jasnell]
if it would still be useful for me to join, then yes
15:45:48 [cwebber2]
jasnell: it would be useful for us to summarize discussion to you
15:45:52 [cwebber2]
both for your sake and ours ;)
15:46:00 [jasnell]
ok, dialing in
15:46:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillips
15:46:57 [sandro]
Summary: AS2 consumers will use 'first-strong' for determining base direction, and AS2 producers MUST anticipate that, and add a leading RLM or LRM or whatever if they know the base direction.
15:47:43 [aphillips]
richard: modify slightly to say "add RLM/LRM where necessary"
15:48:05 [sandro]
sandro: rather not have producers do analysys,
15:48:06 [aphillips]
chris: don't want to analyze the sstring
15:48:12 [aphillips]
15:48:30 [sandro]
aphillips: but don't add a marker if there's one there already
15:48:34 [aphillips]
james: for document or by field?
15:48:39 [aphillips]
richard: by field
15:48:54 [aphillips]
... spec would need to require that base direction is indicator
15:49:18 [aphillips]
chris: is there a spec that defines first-strong?
15:49:21 [sandro]
aphillips: html 'auto' or bidi spec
15:49:26 [aphillips]
sandro: already link to bidi spec
15:49:38 [sandro]
15:50:20 [aphillips]
addison: look for the character if assembling markup
15:50:36 [aphillips]
... otherwise bidi handles it
15:51:56 [sandro]
aphillips: When you're putting a markup string, eg summary, into HTML, then you look for the leading marker and set that as dir on the enclosing HTML
15:51:57 [aphillips]
RLMfoo bar -> <bdi dir=rtl>foo bar
15:52:19 [aphillips]
name: "RLMfoo bar"
15:53:01 [jasnell]
name: "..RLMfoo bar"
15:53:46 [aphillips]
richard: when you consume things, when you create strings in AS
15:53:53 [aphillips]
... don't expec tto change markup in any way
15:53:59 [aphillips]
... might put an RLM before it
15:54:10 [aphillips]
... ensure that first strong character in the string
15:54:18 [aphillips]
... in a non-markup string represents the base direction
15:54:51 [aphillips]
richard: if dealing with markup, the markup will be strongly LTR (which is wrong)
15:54:58 [aphillips]
... need to look past
15:55:01 [aphillips]
... the markup
15:55:07 [aphillips]
richard: set this up so you can detect
15:55:13 [aphillips]
15:55:21 [aphillips]
ack aphillips
15:57:20 [aphillips]
got a name property
15:57:31 [aphillips]
... look at the property, the first character is an RLM
15:57:48 [aphillips]
... know the direciton, wrap this thing in a <span dir=RTL>
15:57:53 [aphillips]
next scenario
15:58:03 [aphillips]
... have a name with weakly direcitonal characters
15:58:19 [aphillips]
... then see a strongly rtl character
15:58:27 [aphillips]
... put in div with dir rtl
15:58:30 [aphillips]
15:58:37 [aphillips]
... strong ltr to start
15:58:46 [aphillips]
richard: one other possible, only numbers
15:58:57 [aphillips]
... have to have an assumptiont hat ltr is default
15:59:15 [aphillips]
as scanning, if not start with rlm, then assume ltr
15:59:55 [aphillips]
addison: can say auto
16:00:01 [aphillips]
summary fields
16:00:12 [aphillips]
... hopefully starts with markup that says rtl/ltr
16:00:24 [aphillips]
... if punctuation/numbers and then markup
16:00:36 [aphillips]
unless first strong is rtl
16:03:55 [aphillips]
addison: directly consume the string
16:04:01 [aphillips]
richard: RLM is just a marker
16:04:14 [aphillips]
... chris's idea of meta on every strong more logical
16:04:26 [aphillips]
... produciton of json is what's important here
16:04:33 [cwebber2]
I advocated metadata as a separate supplement to one string ;)
16:05:12 [aphillips]
james: for producers and consumers: MUST or...
16:05:13 [cwebber2]
(and I no longer think it's a good thing for as2 anyway)
16:05:52 [cwebber2]
btw I'm afraid even if we say MUST
16:05:55 [cwebber2]
it'll become a SHOULD
16:05:58 [cwebber2]
in practice
16:06:34 [cwebber2]
gotta go, all
16:06:48 [aphillips]
thanks chris
16:06:50 [cwebber2]
sounds like things mostly resolved though :)
16:11:59 [r12a]
using @language in the context seems to be the most straightforward way to provide language information in a unilingual situation
16:11:59 [r12a]
where properties are localised into multiple languages, then ...Map should be used for all natural language text
16:11:59 [r12a]
where one property is in a different language than others, use @language for the default language, and use ...Map for properties containing values in other languages.
16:17:14 [aphillips]
james: will spend afternoon writing
16:17:48 [aphillips]
... throw comments on the pull request
16:18:03 [aphillips]
richard: put something in the open issue so we can see
16:18:09 [aphillips]
james: okay
16:18:15 [aphillips]
richard: or refer to issue in pull request
16:18:38 [aphillips]
... notification on i18n label
16:19:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillips
16:19:19 [aphillips]
Topic: AOB
16:30:00 [aphillips]
zakim, bye
16:30:00 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been felix, addison, Chris, Webber, Sandro, Steve, Richard, rhiaro, r12a, JcK
16:30:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
16:30:46 [aphillips]
rrsagent, bye
16:30:46 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
16:30:46 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: ping Martin regarding progress on Unicode in XML update [1]
16:30:46 [RRSAgent]
recorded in