16:34:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:34:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-irc
16:34:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:34:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:34:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:34:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:34:55 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:34:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:34:56 <trackbot> Date: 04 August 2016
16:35:02 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:35:03 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria
16:35:04 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
16:35:22 <jemma> present+ JaEunKu
16:35:24 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:35:34 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:35:39 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:35:42 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:35:55 <jemma> scribe:JaEun
16:36:06 <jemma> scribe: JaeunKU
16:36:37 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:36:38 <jemma> Topic
16:37:14 <jemma> llst attendees
16:37:42 <jemma> Topic: testable state
16:37:52 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
16:38:18 <jemma> rs: we need to break up testable statement, michale
16:38:50 <fesch> q+
16:38:50 <jemma> mc: subgroup has been working on testable statement including Cynthia
16:39:03 <jemma> and other people
16:39:13 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:39:16 <jemma> cyn: made some progress and add info to wiki
16:39:59 <jemma> cyn: can you send me the location of actual statements, Rich?
16:40:02 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:40:09 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
16:40:20 <jemma> mc: Michael sent those
16:40:22 <clown> this url isn't working:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testsuites?testsuite_id=1 (ARIA 1.0)
16:40:25 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:40:49 <jemma> rs: testing each new feature in aria spec
16:41:45 <jemma> rs: go through the form and add info for expected results
16:41:49 <MichaelC> use https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=1
16:42:40 <clown> Okay, MichaeC, but that means the link on the testharness page needs fixing.
16:43:36 <fesch> q?
16:43:54 <jemma> cyn: I translated the test case into json format, open test harness, and look at testable statement, copy html content and I have to go back to container again, human reable stuff.
16:44:08 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables
16:44:24 <jemma> cyn:  curent items are pretty hard to make it machine readable format. we would like to have something machine readable with db
16:44:43 <jemma> rs: that is not possible for now.
16:44:54 <janina> janina has joined #aria
16:45:22 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Automated_Testing#Alternative_Draft_ARIA_Test_Case_Format
16:45:49 <jemma> fred:  made a file which put all the test files and I am flexible to make any file type you need for testing
16:47:17 <jemma> mc: testable statement is expected result but it is not one to one relationship with test case.
16:47:35 <jemma> mc: test file lives in git hub
16:48:26 <jemma> cyn: test harness is only place I need to look at for automated testing? is that correct?
16:48:30 <jemma> mc: yes
16:49:23 <jemma> cyn: if there are things that is not going to automated testing, it is helpful.
16:49:32 <jemma> rs: it is only 5
16:49:51 <Rich> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
16:49:56 <jemma> mc: we can do create test case for new features in aria
16:50:11 <jemma> using index and other doc
16:50:50 <jemma> rs: we need to writing testable statements for new or changed ARIA features
16:51:33 <jemma> js: how des this fit with automatically generated test?
16:51:49 <jemma> fred: they were basically copy and paste
16:53:00 <jemma> mc: it has been hard to use generator in filtering what is new and changed one.
16:53:28 <fesch> q+
16:55:01 <jongund> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Automated_Testing#Draft_ARIA_Test_Case_Format
16:55:35 <jemma> cyn: Microsoft is building testing demo cases using aira 1.1 (jason format) and runs aoutomatic tesitng, expecting human readable. - all the info is in the wiki.
16:56:18 <jemma> rs: something like object attribute is true?
16:56:35 <jemma> cyn: element is the id
16:57:35 <jemma> rs: I would like to see title is done at least
16:58:05 <jemma> rs:while cynthia is working on format, I can do title for test statement.
16:59:10 <jemma> fred: writing testable is possible by human readable ?
17:00:02 <jemma> rs: fred, will you put this in the wik?
17:00:24 <jemma> fred: it may need for svg too for the consistency
17:01:08 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Automated_Testing#Alternative_Draft_ARIA_Test_Case_Format
17:01:21 <jemma> fred: there are things pretty straight forward such as name calculation, etc
17:01:48 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables
17:01:51 <jemma> fred: the link includes the result
17:02:35 <jemma> rs: this is also test cases?
17:02:38 <jemma> fred: yes
17:02:52 <jemma> s/this is/these are
17:03:13 <jemma> rs; do you want keep this format?
17:03:27 <jemma> fred: yes, if we do have those, we can use perl script
17:04:38 <jemma> fred: whatever aam has can be captured in this kind of table.(In responding to Rich's question such as complex case?)
17:05:20 <jemma> jg: if we revise perl script a little bit, we can still use this structure
17:06:04 <jemma> fred: I think this is pretty human readable and can find errors easily
17:06:23 <jemma> rs:all up for this wiki?
17:06:58 <jemma> fred: all outliers can be taken care of separately but 90% can be taken care of.
17:07:06 <jemma> using this
17:07:21 <Rich> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
17:08:03 <jemma> rs: should we work on Michael's exit criteria?
17:08:11 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#changelog
17:08:42 <jemma> mc: we can refer appendix and Joannie was on top of updating this.
17:09:46 <jemma> rs: we need to break changelog up and assign works.
17:11:10 <jemma> jd: we need come up with net total first such as removing password role.
17:12:21 <jemma> jd: I don't think just dividing the work by date does not make sense. why don't we let John or John's people look over the net chage?
17:13:05 <MichaelC> action: cooper to do a ¨net change¨ list in preparation for test case development
17:13:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2105 - Do a ¨net change¨ list in preparation for test case development [on Michael Cooper - due 2016-08-11].
17:13:17 <jemma> mc: we need to find net change first.
17:13:26 <jemma> s/chage/change
17:13:58 <jemma> mc: we would not do complete test for CR exit
17:14:06 <jongund> q+
17:14:15 <fesch> ack me
17:15:25 <jemma> jg: so we would not do any testing for existing ones, only for changes?
17:15:31 <jemma> mc: yes for CR
17:17:09 <jemma> jg: I will send out doc so that Fred can look at it. It is pretty concrete template, so people in india does not need to from the scrach
17:18:13 <jemma> jg: we hope to do comprehensive testing but we will more focus on testing for CR exit review
17:18:25 <MichaelC> action-2105: talk with Joanie about this
17:18:25 <trackbot> Notes added to action-2105 Do a ¨net change¨ list in preparation for test case development.
17:18:34 <clown> issue-1043
17:18:34 <trackbot> issue-1043 --  -- open
17:18:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1043
17:18:44 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1043
17:19:03 <jemma> Topic: issue-1043
17:19:08 <Rich> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-details
17:19:29 <jemma> rs: publishers want to hide detailes
17:19:29 <joanie> Joanie will work with Michael to come up with a list summarizing the changes we must test.
17:19:53 <jemma> rs: we need to change one sentence
17:20:14 <jemma> rs: make it "should"
17:20:28 <jemma> js: what was it "must" at first?
17:20:36 <jemma> s/what/why
17:21:45 <jemma> js:they want to have "should" and have reverse relationship in a11y api. they can not have both.
17:23:45 <jemma> rs: Publishers want to hide details button, so put some visual indicator such as "more info" and let user turn on and off
17:25:06 <jemma> janina: not our battle, this is for non AT users
17:25:38 <jemma> rs: target is hidden and there is no mapping
17:25:59 <jemma> js: I would like to think about this.
17:26:36 <jemma> js: plus +0 for me ;-)
17:27:00 <jemma> rs:what do you think about this issue? do you want a survey?
17:27:10 <chaals> [is there any implementation of this?]
17:27:58 <jemma> rs: do you mean API mapping for "implementation"?
17:27:59 <Rich> [do you mean api mappings?]
17:28:27 <chaals> [I mean is there implementation of aria-details that I can test end-to-end]
17:28:28 <Rich> [charles, we need to create the api mappings]
17:28:29 <clown> there are implementations of <details>/<summary> which is one way to cash-in on aria-details, chaals
17:29:15 <Rich> [we have an example of that in the aria spec. using the <details>/<summary> pattern
17:29:23 <clown> [Example 17]
17:29:26 <Rich> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-details
17:30:03 <chaals> [that only applies to a particular form of the local case, where the details are in exactly the same place - except that in details/summary the details are hidden by default]
17:30:53 <Rich> [yes, but you do see a button when the cotent is hidden. publishers want to hide even that]
17:31:10 <chaals> [I'm not surprised they want to hide that]
17:31:26 <Rich> :-)
17:31:33 <jemma> RESOULUTION: change "must" to "should" in aria details.
17:32:01 <jemma> rs: Joanie, can you change that?
17:32:28 <jemma> rs: do you want me to create the branch?
17:32:51 <jemma> mc: I would recommend to create the branch if it goes out for CFC
17:33:28 <jemma> s/RESOULUTION/RESOLUTION
17:33:30 <Rich> Action: Rich create branch for the CFC for aria-details and the authors must going to an authors SHOULD
17:33:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2106 - Create branch for the cfc for aria-details and the authors must going to an authors should [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-08-11].
17:34:26 <jemma> rs: is there any blocker? any thing new, Joshep?
17:34:41 <jemma> js: nothing new since last week meeting.
17:34:50 <clown> s/Joshep/Joseph/
17:40:11 <jemma>  list attendees
17:40:27 <jemma> zakim, who's here?
17:40:27 <Zakim> Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, JaEunKu, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, LJWatson, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa
17:40:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see janina, bgaraventa1979, LJWatson, jemma, Zakim, RRSAgent, clown, jongund, fesch, Rich, chaals, dcooney, MichaelC, ShaneM, MichielBijl, JonathanNeal_, Josh_Soref,
17:40:30 <Zakim> ... timeless, trackbot, joanie
17:41:04 <jemma> present+ Michael Cooper
17:41:40 <clown> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2014-November/001852.html
17:42:14 <clown> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2014-November/001853.html
17:42:23 <jemma> present+ Janina
17:43:57 <jemma> rs; when will you publish the working draft?
17:44:43 <jemma> ms: I can start working on it tomorrow and may take two weeks or so.
17:46:23 <jemma> Chair: Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:48:21 <jemma> s/Topic: testable state/Testable Statements (Coordination) and test case Authoring
17:49:19 <jemma> s/testable statement/testable statements
17:50:18 <jemma> s/michale/Michael
17:50:56 <jemma> s/add info/added info
17:55:19 <jemma> s/if there are things that is not going to automated testing it is helpful./knowing that there are things that is not going to be part of automated testing would be helpful.
17:57:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
17:58:28 <jemma> s/wik/wiki
18:00:42 <clown> clown has joined #aria
18:01:26 <jemma> s/to from the scrach/do work from the scratch
18:04:25 <jemma> s/any blocker?/any other blockers for entering CR?
18:05:32 <jemma> s/rs; when will you/rs: when would you be able to
18:06:48 <jemma> regrets: michielbijl
18:07:12 <jemma> regrets:Matt_King
18:09:05 <jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-minutes.html jemma
18:09:56 <jemma> rrsagent, make logs public
18:13:19 <jemma> regrets:michielbijl
18:13:39 <jemma> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:13:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-minutes.html jemma
18:14:37 <jemma> regrets:Matt_King
18:15:23 <jemma> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:15:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-minutes.html jemma
18:18:42 <jemma> regrets+ michielbijl
18:18:53 <jemma> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:18:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-minutes.html jemma
18:32:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
18:37:11 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
18:43:41 <jemma> rrsagent, bye
18:43:41 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-actions.rdf :
18:43:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cooper to do a ¨net change¨ list in preparation for test case development [1]
18:43:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-irc#T17-13-05
18:43:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rich create branch for the CFC for aria-details and the authors must going to an authors SHOULD [2]
18:43:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-aria-irc#T17-33-30