14:11:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:11:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/28-lvtf-irc
14:11:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:11:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
14:11:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:11:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:11:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:11:14 <trackbot> Date: 28 July 2016
14:11:23 <AllanJ> Chair: jim
14:11:30 <AllanJ> who is here?
14:11:36 <AllanJ> zakim, who is here?
14:11:38 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
14:11:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AllanJ, shawn, jeanne, trackbot
14:11:52 <AllanJ> present+
14:12:20 <shawn> regrets+ Shawn
14:12:34 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Review:  Techniques needed for Icon Fonts are there implications for LV users?
14:12:54 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Guidance for TF-submitted Success Criteria  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Jul/0043.html
14:13:05 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html
14:40:49 <AllanJ> AllanJ has joined #lvtf
14:41:03 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
14:41:03 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:41:04 <Zakim> 1. Review:  Techniques needed for Icon Fonts are there implications for LV users? [from AllanJ]
14:41:04 <Zakim> 2. Guidance for TF-submitted Success Criteria  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Jul/0043.html [from AllanJ]
14:41:04 <Zakim> 3. Gap analysis updated - existing SCs http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html [from AllanJ]
14:51:49 <AllanJ> regrets: shawn
14:53:21 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
14:56:10 <AllanJ> regrets+ JohnR
14:56:22 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
14:56:31 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/28-lvtf-minutes.html AllanJ
14:57:00 <AllanJ> present+
14:57:23 <AllanJ> s/who is here?/
14:57:48 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
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15:04:02 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:04:11 <Wayne> scribe, wayne
15:04:30 <AllanJ> agenda?
15:04:47 <laura> present+ Laura
15:05:01 <Wayne> Extra Agenda:
15:05:52 <Wayne> Jim: We will be sending out a poll, the conflict with Mobil hurts.
15:06:32 <Wayne> present+ Wayne
15:06:38 <AllanJ> zakim, take up item 1
15:06:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review:  Techniques needed for Icon Fonts are there implications for LV users?" taken up [from AllanJ]
15:06:58 <AllanJ> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/144#issuecomment-231309107
15:07:11 <Wayne> present+ AWK
15:07:23 <laura> Techniques needed for Icon Fonts #144
15:07:29 <laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/144
15:08:01 <laura> Using aria-hidden="true" on an icon font that AT should ignore
15:08:02 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-hidden%3Dtrue_on_an_icon_font_that_AT_should_ignore
15:08:07 <laura> Icon Font with an On-Screen Text Alternative
15:08:07 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Icon_Font_with_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative
15:08:13 <laura> Using aria-hidden="true" on Unicode characters that AT should ignore
15:08:13 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_a_Decorative_Unicode_Character
15:08:18 <laura> Unicode Character with an On-Screen Text Alternative
15:08:19 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Providing_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative_for_an_Icon_Font
15:10:37 <AllanJ> discussion of off-screen vs on-screen alternative
15:11:23 <AllanJ> with all the usability studies about the hamburger menu, on-screen alternative better for everyone
15:13:59 <AllanJ> is this a magnifier issue? or what is the issue with icon fonts and unicode characters?
15:15:05 <AllanJ> scott: Zoomtext had issues previously, seems to be fixed. Unicode character text to speech engine may or may not speak?
15:15:34 <AllanJ> awk: there are some unicode characters don't have a text alternative
15:17:01 <AllanJ> scott: some speech engines don't recognize the unicode characters. there is a problem with replacement unicode characters - substituting an icon for an unicode entitity
15:17:53 <AllanJ> ... then user gets a box - no icon, or a label that makes no sense in relation to context or the icon
15:18:34 <AllanJ> awk: need to mindful of issues. unicode private use area...
15:19:04 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:19:19 <AllanJ> ... on a page have a font as a ligature "home", announced as house, but the character is a picture of house
15:19:44 <AllanJ> awk: don't want to say "icon fonts are bad" need nuance
15:20:44 <AllanJ> wayne: icon fonts can be made very large. problem is with the naming - have things spoken with text to speech. they are very unpredicable
15:21:05 <AllanJ> ... chaotic with icon fonts
15:21:13 <laura> q+
15:21:46 <Wayne> scott: Because it is private use there is not map to the character?
15:21:54 <AllanJ> scott: hard to tell what the icon is, and speech doesn't help. hard to put a tooltip on an icon font.
15:22:22 <AllanJ> ... from LV perspective they are ok, IF authors are following the other rules.
15:22:41 <AllanJ> awk: so a screen reader issue (text to speech)
15:22:55 <AWK> http://timepiece.inostudio.de
15:22:57 <AllanJ> wayne: LV users use screen readers
15:23:54 <AllanJ> wayne: some work, some don't
15:24:24 <AllanJ> awk: when do they work, when don't they. need to define the work/non-work
15:24:52 <AllanJ> scott: clock, screen reader sees it, reads it.
15:25:40 <AllanJ> ... if one character so a screen reader says multiple words. or are we limited to one character?
15:26:06 <Wayne> I have these issues: 1) Sometimes I cannot see the icon because it has too little contrast or is too complex, 2) when I listen there is not text alternative.
15:26:41 <AllanJ> awk: then they use ligature (combined characters). data is 2 or more characters, but onscreen is 1 character. but screen reader sees word.
15:27:38 <AllanJ> ... need to word techniques to allow things done properly. and define what is "done properly"
15:28:27 <AllanJ> wayne: need simple, good contrast, and text alternative.
15:29:47 <AllanJ> awk: explains concept. will write page for examples of icon fonts, with ligature - so screen reader works, change fonts and word appears and icon vanishes. need some examples
15:29:56 <ScottM_> ScottM_ has joined #lvtf
15:30:42 <AllanJ> laura: can we review each technique
15:31:36 <AllanJ> scott: awk approach may work. may be cognitive issue. need some issue where icon makes no sense...need mechanism to have words -- fail gracefully
15:31:53 <AllanJ> ... tool time, or turn off icons and get words
15:32:30 <ScottM> something is wrong with IRC
15:32:37 <ScottM> I keep getting disconnected...
15:32:40 <laura> Using aria-hidden="true" on an icon font that AT should ignore
15:32:41 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-hidden%3Dtrue_on_an_icon_font_that_AT_should_ignore
15:32:56 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/iconfonts/decorative.html
15:32:58 <AllanJ> topic: aria hidden = true Icon Font
15:34:10 <AllanJ> showing heading with red triangle. private area character.
15:34:23 <AllanJ> not announce because hidden by aria
15:34:47 <laura> Icon Font with an On-Screen Text Alternative
15:34:52 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Icon_Font_with_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative
15:34:56 <AllanJ> topic: On screen
15:35:09 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/iconfonts/onscreen_alt.html
15:35:20 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/iconfonts/onscreen_alt_in_link.html
15:36:36 <laura> Using aria-hidden="true" on Unicode characters that AT should ignore
15:36:42 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_a_Decorative_Unicode_Character
15:36:43 <AllanJ> the ones with unicode are very similar. all work with a screen reader
15:36:56 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/unicode/decorative.html
15:37:10 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Providing_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative_for_an_Icon_Font
15:37:33 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/unicode/onscreen_alt.html
15:37:47 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/unicode/onscreen_alt_in_link.html
15:38:33 <AllanJ> must have empty span with aria-hidden=true to keep "anything" from being spoken
15:40:49 <AllanJ> wayne: serious authoring issue to get a character on the screen.
15:41:15 <AllanJ> ... Laura's are good techniques
15:41:50 <ScottM> KISS is always best (Keep it simple stupid) :)
15:43:01 <AllanJ> 3 points - need words, need good contrast, need simple icons
15:43:36 <AllanJ> awk: may be 1 technique, hiding disruptive content using unsupported font information.
15:43:51 <AllanJ> laura: different ways to code.
15:44:09 <AllanJ> awk: may get push back is always words.
15:44:29 <AllanJ> ja: add points to techniques...not the SC
15:47:39 <AllanJ> laura: all have aria-hidden, different ways to code.
15:48:09 <AllanJ> awk: are icon fonts a problem, and what is the problem.
15:48:37 <AllanJ> ... laura's techniques are about assistive technology.
15:49:06 <AllanJ> wayne: if you can't distinguish the character, you need the words
15:50:02 <AllanJ> scott: you need the words if you can't understand the 1 character (icon),
15:53:16 <AllanJ> ja: change the preamble to say not AT and AT users. include wayne's points
15:53:21 <laura>  New Low Vision SC to set baseline contrast for images & icons that convey information (WCAG Issue 96)
15:53:25 <laura> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/3
15:54:27 <AllanJ> awk: uncomfortable about defining icon fonts. some character/glyph/etc what has meaning to whom under what conditions
15:55:39 <AllanJ> ... unicode left facing triange, has meaning, and screen readers speak correctly... its a matter of use and context
15:56:06 <Wayne> AWK: We are not sure what icon fonts are. Icon font is not as clear. Letters like A or Chinese characters have unque identification. Icon fonts are not unique in their interpretation. What does an Icon font mean?
15:56:41 <AllanJ> ... information must be correctly expressed and presented/rendered properly
15:58:35 <Wayne> Scott: Limit letters to the natural language of the page.
15:59:02 <Wayne> s: An Icon is established, but what does it mean.
15:59:52 <Wayne> s: Has meaning in the context of the page. Words and letters have meaning in the context of their language.
16:02:04 <Wayne> trackbot, end meeting
16:02:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:02:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AllanJ, Laura, Wayne, AWK
16:02:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/28-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:02:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:02:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items