18:38:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:38:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/26-aapi-irc
18:38:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
18:38:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:38:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:38:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:38:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:38:58 <trackbot> Date: 26 July 2016
18:39:44 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:39:58 <clown> agenda: this
18:40:20 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-676/ACTION-1739: (Joseph) Identify ATK/AT-SPI interfaces in role mappings.  done?
18:40:33 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-676/ACTION-2083: (Joanie) Review and update ATK/AT-SPI states.  - status?
18:40:50 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-583: (Rich) Children elements of ancesstor with aria-activedescendant should not all be focuable. - done?
18:41:03 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-645: (All) remove 'checkable' object attribute requirement from aria-pressed mapping requirements. - done?
18:41:17 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-663: (Rich) Presentational children of some widgets have doclick actions if make presentational who handles the click.
18:41:32 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-627: (All) Conflict between aria-autocomplete and HTML5.2 autocomplete. - APG?
18:41:52 <clown> agenda+ Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
18:42:05 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas:  https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:42:19 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:42:29 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:42:37 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:43:10 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 02-Aug-2016, 20:00 UTC)
18:59:39 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:59:50 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:02:05 <Rich> Rich has joined #aapi
19:02:15 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:02:33 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:04:20 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:04:22 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:04:57 <joanie> regrets+ Cynthia_Shelly
19:05:01 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:05:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-676/ACTION-1739: (Joseph) Identify ATK/AT-SPI interfaces in role mappings.  done?" taken up [from clown]
19:05:11 <clown> issue-676?
19:05:11 <trackbot> issue-676 -- Is it useful to identify MSAA+IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI actions, interfaces, and relations in the mappings? -- open
19:05:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/676
19:05:16 <joanie> JS: I want to see how far we can get with issue-676.
19:05:41 <clown> action-1739?
19:05:41 <trackbot> action-1739 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2016-07-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:05:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739
19:05:44 <joanie> JS: Jason Kiss suggested we add the appropriate MSAA+IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI actions, interfaces, etc. to the mappings
19:05:58 <joanie> JS: I've done much of this work on action-1739.
19:06:21 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-cell
19:06:37 <joanie> JS: But for the cell role, there was a question about the TableCell interface.
19:06:52 <joanie> JS: And the request to mark it as [ARIA1.1]
19:07:00 <joanie> JS: But the role was introduced in ARIA 1.1.
19:08:05 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-gridcell
19:08:49 <joanie> JD: I'm afraid I don't recall now.
19:10:51 <joanie> JD: To answer the question, no, I don't think any additional "ARIA 1.1" notation is needed.
19:10:58 <joanie> JS: Can I close this action then?
19:11:01 <joanie> JD: I think so.
19:11:05 <joanie> JS: Ok, will do.
19:11:39 <joanie> JS: That closes half of this issue.
19:11:43 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:11:43 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-676/ACTION-2083: (Joanie) Review and update ATK/AT-SPI states.  - status?" taken up [from clown]
19:11:47 <clown> action-2083
19:11:47 <trackbot> action-2083 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Review and update ATK/AT-SPI2 states in Core AAM -- due 2016-06-21 -- OPEN
19:11:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2083
19:11:51 <joanie> JD: I worked on this today.
19:11:56 <joanie> JD: I have added notes to the action.
19:13:35 <joanie> JS: Looking at the action, that's a lot of work.
19:14:54 <joanie> JD: Cynthia had a similar situation didn't she? With aria-value* on focusable splitters?
19:15:14 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaValueNow
19:15:28 <joanie> JS: Yes, she said you didn't have to list it for the role; it could be listed for the states and properties mappings.
19:15:46 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_state-property_table
19:17:05 <joanie> JD: Aha, yes. It would make sense for my states to be listed in the states and properties table.
19:17:11 <joanie> JD: Which they already are.
19:17:19 <joanie> JD: Which means I'm an idiot for duplicating things.
19:18:52 <joanie> JS: I'll take this and compare what you've provided to what is already in the spec.
19:19:27 <joanie> JS: And if I have question, I'll ask you.
19:19:37 <joanie> JD: Thanks!
19:19:46 <joanie> JD: I still need to review relations, etc.
19:19:56 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:19:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-583: (Rich) Children elements of ancesstor with aria-activedescendant should not all be focuable. - done?" taken up [from clown]
19:20:03 <clown> issue-583
19:20:03 <trackbot> issue-583 -- Elements that are descendants of an element having aria-activedescendant should not all be focusable -- open
19:20:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/583
19:20:22 <joanie> JS: Rich raised the issue.
19:20:43 <joanie> JS: David, Alex and I resolved it in action-1222.
19:20:47 <joanie> action-1222
19:20:47 <trackbot> action-1222 -- David Bolter to Look into ISSUE-583, and think about section 4.3, step 4A to see if that answers the question. -- due 2013-05-16 -- CLOSED
19:20:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1222
19:20:57 <joanie> RS: What did you change in the steps?
19:21:07 <joanie> JS: Absolutely nothing, as far as I recall.
19:22:02 <joanie> JS: You have a container with aria-activedescendant.
19:22:15 <joanie> JS: Only the elements with an id are focusable.
19:22:24 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
19:22:27 <joanie> JS: Because elements without an id cannot be referenced.
19:22:32 <joanie> JS: The URL is above.
19:22:42 <joanie> JS: In addition to an id, it has to have a role.
19:23:08 <joanie> JS: So if you think of a listbox, focusable is only applied to elements with role="option" and an id.
19:23:29 <joanie> RS: So every element with an id and role are focusable?
19:23:43 <joanie> JS: Well, if it has a tabindex, it would also be focusable.
19:23:50 <joanie> JS: That's what tabiindex means.
19:24:01 <joanie> RS: Did this resolve the issue with combobox?
19:24:20 <joanie> JS: It says "descendant"; not "direct descendant"
19:24:49 <joanie> RS: In the case of a combobox, you can have activedescendant on the combobox; but the listbox doesn't have to be a descendant.
19:24:53 <joanie> JS: Can I see the markup?
19:25:19 <joanie> RS: Sure
19:26:18 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#combobox
19:26:26 <Rich> <div role=“combobox”><input type=“text” aria-activedescendant=“foo”><div role=“listbox><div role=“option” id=“foo”>option 1</div?</div></div>
19:26:28 <joanie> JS: If you look at example 5 in the spec, I think that's what you're talking about.
19:26:35 <joanie> RS: Above is my example.
19:26:44 <joanie> JS: So the listbox is a descendant of the combobox, right?
19:26:53 <joanie> RS: aria-activedescendant is on the input.
19:27:15 <joanie> RS: So the listitem that contains "zoom" is not a descendant of the input with type "text"
19:27:30 <joanie> JS: It can't be because inputs don't have descendants.
19:27:32 <joanie> RS: Right.
19:27:36 <joanie> RS: And it's more than that.
19:27:48 <joanie> RS: I thought the lisbox would be inside the combobox.
19:27:53 <joanie> JS: It is.
19:28:03 <joanie> RS: I see an ordered list outside the combobox.
19:28:09 <joanie> JS: I'm looking at what you typed.
19:28:14 <joanie> RS: I'm looking at the spec.
19:28:31 <joanie> JS: In the spec, aria-owns is being used. That makes it a descendant.
19:28:59 <Rich> <div aria-label="Tag" role="combobox" aria-expanded="true" aria-owns="owned_listbox" aria-haspopup="listbox">
19:28:59 <Rich>     <input type="text" aria-autocomplete="list" aria-controls="owned_listbox" aria-activedescendant="selected_option">
19:29:01 <Rich> </div>
19:29:02 <Rich> <ul role="listbox" id="owned_listbox">
19:29:03 <Rich>     <li role="option">Zebra</li>
19:29:04 <Rich>     <li role="option" id="selected_option">Zoom</li>
19:29:05 <Rich> </ul>
19:29:10 <joanie> JS: There's a div with role combobox which has aria-owns and points to the listbox.
19:29:23 <joanie> RS: It seems to be acting on behalf of the combobox.
19:29:33 <joanie> JS: And there's no ownership relation either.
19:29:47 <joanie> JS: So the question is: Is there enough information here to mark the elements as focusable?
19:29:59 <joanie> JS: And they don't all have IDs.
19:30:04 <joanie> RS: So they are not focusable.
19:30:15 <joanie> JS: That's easily corrected; but I don't know about the others.
19:30:22 <joanie> RS: It's a descendant of the container.
19:30:30 <joanie> RS: So it's acting on behalf of the container.
19:30:37 <joanie> RS: (Reads from spec)
19:30:59 <joanie> RS: So they made a special case.
19:31:28 <joanie> "Authors may set aria-activedescendant on the textbox to a value that refers to the active element within the popup while focus remains on the textbox element."
19:31:39 <joanie> RS + JS: Not sure that will work.
19:31:45 <joanie> JS: Oh, focus is on the input.
19:32:16 <joanie> JS: It's not a problem for focused; I don't know about focusable.
19:36:01 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
19:42:49 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-activedescendant
19:44:41 <joanie> JD: (Long explanation about how focus versus selection are expected to work on her platform)
19:45:08 <joanie> JS: I'm telling you, focus changes are being emitted by Firefox; not selection changes.
19:45:15 <joanie> JD: Well that strikes me as broken.
19:45:35 <joanie> BG: I have some examples that might be helpful.
19:46:00 <joanie> BG: If you just leave focus on the input, the user can resume typing at any time.
19:46:16 <joanie> BG: And it works smoothly once it's coded.
19:46:28 <joanie> BG: I know what Joanie is talking about.
19:46:36 <joanie> BG: I've used aria-selected for this.
19:46:53 <joanie> BG: And it fires a selection event.
19:47:43 <joanie> JD: Brian is my hero!
19:47:53 <joanie> JD: Can that go in the APG?
19:48:05 <joanie> JD: And should someone take an action to address this?
19:48:49 <joanie> s/Brian/Bryan/
19:49:46 <joanie> BG: The value of using aria-selected is that it triggers a selection event.
19:50:01 <joanie> BG: And this causes the AT to present the newly-selected item.
19:50:28 <joanie> BG: But you still need to be able to use the arrow keys to change the selection.
19:50:55 <joanie> JS: I understand why aria-selected is useful.
19:51:06 <joanie> JS: I'm still not seeing why aria-activedescendant is.
19:51:14 <joanie> BG: I've seen this with a date picker.
19:51:25 <joanie> BG: Focus was on the input.
19:52:25 <joanie> BG: If you used aria-selected, focus would still be on the input and that would be confusing to the user.
19:52:41 <joanie> JS: So why wouldn't you use real focus in that case?
19:52:47 <joanie> BG: In my date pickers you do.
19:52:58 <joanie> BG: In others, it would involve lots of recoding.
19:53:09 <joanie> JS: Can we close issue-583?
19:53:24 <joanie> RS: Do I think it's been resolved?
19:53:36 <joanie> RS: The activedescendant doesn't quite work.
19:53:42 <joanie> JS: I'm not sure that's the same issue.
19:53:55 <joanie> RS: I think the focusable issue has been addressed.
19:54:04 <joanie> JS: I don't think the other issue is a Core AAM issue.
19:54:17 <joanie> JS: It might be an ARIA spec issue.
19:54:36 <joanie> RS: But focusable is a mappings thing; the spec doesn't say anything about that.
19:54:55 <joanie> JS: (Reads aria-activedescendant from the ARIA spec)
19:55:03 <joanie> JS: Note that the ARIA spec says "focusable"
19:55:27 <joanie> RS: But it doesn't say what defines "focusable"; only that it has "focusable" descendants.
19:55:51 <joanie> JS: It says "identifies the currently-active element when DOM focus is on a widget"
19:56:06 <joanie> JS: It also refers to alternative focus management.
19:56:30 <joanie> JS: It also says "active," but I'm not sure what "active" means in this case.
19:56:53 <joanie> JD: It means what I said before: It might mean "focused"; it might mean "selected." It depends on the context.
19:57:05 <joanie> JS: Ok, I'm closing this issue. If you want to open another one, please do.
19:57:14 <joanie> RS: I can do that.
19:57:22 <joanie> RS: Against Core AAM?
19:57:26 <joanie> JS: I guess.
19:57:42 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
19:58:13 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
19:59:17 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:59:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/26-aapi-minutes.html joanie
19:59:54 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:00:45 <joanie> issue-1037
20:00:45 <trackbot> issue-1037 -- Focus does not address aria-asctivedescendant when the element is not a descendant -- raised
20:00:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1037
20:00:46 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1037
20:01:56 <joanie> JS: You asked me about blockers?
20:02:02 <joanie> JS: I think this is going to be one of them.
20:02:07 <joanie> RS: How many issues are left?
20:02:13 <joanie> JS: There are tons of them.
20:02:23 <joanie> JS: But I don't think most will be blockers.
20:02:28 <joanie> issue-1030
20:02:28 <trackbot> issue-1030 -- Specify mappings for role="password" for all AAPIs -- raised
20:02:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1030
20:02:41 <joanie> RS: Move that one to ARIA 2.
20:02:57 <joanie> JS: I want to move it to ARIA 2 Core Mappings, but I don't think I can.
20:03:13 <joanie> RS: I can add a new product.
20:03:41 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/53
20:09:06 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:09:06 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:09:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:09:27 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop