18:01:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:01:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/21-shapes-irc
18:01:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
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18:01:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:01:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
18:01:38 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:01:38 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2016
18:03:16 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
18:03:39 <kcoyle> present+
18:04:15 <pano> present+
18:05:12 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.07.21
18:05:19 <jamsden> jamsden has joined #shapes
18:05:23 <Arnaud> present+
18:07:24 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
18:07:48 <TallTed> present+
18:08:21 <hknublau> present+
18:08:26 <Arnaud> regrets: andys
18:08:56 <Dimitris> cannot enter the call with webex
18:09:03 <Dimitris> the application keeps crashing
18:09:47 <ericP> linux?
18:10:10 <Dimitris> android, linux doesnt work anyway :)
18:10:22 <ericP> yeah, codec prob
18:13:59 <kcoyle> scribenick: kcoyle
18:14:19 <kcoyle> topic: Admin
18:14:26 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 14 July 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/07/14-shapes-minutes.html
18:14:34 <Dimitris> Dimitris has joined #shapes
18:14:46 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 14 July 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/07/14-shapes-minutes.html
<kcoyle> topic: "In-scope" public comment
18:15:54 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Comment on public list about "scope"
18:16:29 <kcoyle> ... thanks to Dimitris for responding
18:17:02 <kcoyle> ... do we have an answer other than Dimitris'?
18:17:05 <hknublau> q+
18:17:06 <Dimitris> q+
18:17:12 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:17:55 <kcoyle> hknublau: Sympathizes - scope is overloaded; suggest trigger, because place to start
18:17:58 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
18:18:14 <ericP> +1 to select
18:18:23 <kcoyle> Dimitris: select or collect - nodes that are selected, e.g.
18:18:30 <ericP> q+
18:18:42 <Arnaud> ack ericP
18:18:45 <ericP> selectification
18:19:27 <kcoyle> ericP: One issue is that spec uses this as the only way to select nodes - e.g. CSS selectors
18:20:17 <Dimitris> q+
18:20:23 <kcoyle> ... could be like API to select nodes
18:20:36 <Dimitris> q-
18:21:16 <hknublau> sh:selectorClass, sh:selectorNode, sh:selectorObjectsOf, sh:selectedSubjectsOf
18:21:26 <Arnaud> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#shapes
18:21:27 <kcoyle> kcoyle: "selector" comes from a different angle
18:22:09 <kcoyle> Arnaud: illustration explains steps "scopes are used to select focus nodes" - define focus with a scope
18:22:38 <kcoyle> q+
18:22:40 <TallTed> maybe just "in focus" instead of "in scope"?  sh:focusClass, sh:focusNode, sh:focusObjectsOf, sh:focusSubjectsOf
18:22:43 <Arnaud> sck kcoyle
18:22:47 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
18:23:31 <hknublau> @TallTed focus node already has a different meaning, at runtime.
18:23:43 <kcoyle> kcoyle: had questioned "in scope" - which Dimitris has now removed
18:24:07 <TallTed> @hknublau - true...
18:24:23 <kcoyle> Arnaud: "Selector" and "selected" seem to work in the text
18:24:33 <hknublau> q+
18:24:40 <ericP> +1 to fixing
18:24:42 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:24:43 <Dimitris> q+
18:25:20 <kcoyle> hknublau: we could respond that we are open to hearing suggestions; could create a ticket or wiki page where we talk about names
18:25:38 <kcoyle> ... requires more thought
18:25:40 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
18:26:26 <kcoyle> Dimitris: select selectNode, selectObjectOf, etc.
18:26:39 <hknublau> This would benefit from being written down on a wiki page.
18:27:35 <Dimitris> e.g. selectNodes, selectInstancesOf, selectObjectsOf, selectSubjectsOf
18:27:43 <kcoyle> Arnaud: asks Dimitris to answer / follow-up
18:28:10 <kcoyle> ... Dimitris to create wiki page and refer to it in email
18:29:39 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Core SHACL Abstract Syntax
18:29:41 <kcoyle> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-abstract-syntax/
18:31:39 <kcoyle> ericP: Document is ok for a fpwd; has simplified view
18:32:51 <kcoyle> Arnaud: (make this more obvious at the top of the document)
18:33:22 <kcoyle> ericP: potentially out of scope as per use of path instead of inverse property scope
18:33:35 <kcoyle> ... does not have qualified cardinality restriction
18:33:53 <kcoyle> Arnaud: needs references
18:33:55 <Dimitris> q+
18:34:32 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
18:34:49 <kcoyle> Dimitris: also inverse property constraint, which is removed
18:35:27 <kcoyle> q+
18:36:16 <hknublau> q+
18:36:21 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
18:37:09 <kcoyle> Needs to coordinate with PWD of SHACL
18:37:16 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:38:15 <kcoyle> hknublau: overlaps with what we already have; current document is more precise; there can be mis-matches
18:38:23 <TallTed> q+
18:38:41 <kcoyle> Arnaud: every new document is additional workload; but we decided to have an abstract syntax
18:39:07 <kcoyle> ... add a disclaimer that this is a complementary document to SHACL spec
18:39:21 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
18:40:06 <Dimitris> in the status it writes "This is a Working Draft. It is not decided whether this will be a WG Note or a WG Recommendation."
18:40:08 <kcoyle> TallTed: 1) not yet decided if this is note, recommendation, appendix... non-normative. should be in the abstract. this is an AS drawn from core document
18:40:08 <Dimitris> 
18:40:55 <kcoyle> Arnaud: add that this is derived from SHACL
18:41:49 <kcoyle> TallTed: should be 'non-normative" -
18:42:03 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Note is non-normative by definition
18:42:33 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Eric will address this
18:43:19 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Do we need to republish SHACL? What changes have been done?
18:43:39 <hknublau> q+
18:43:43 <Dimitris> q+
18:44:45 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:44:45 <kcoyle> Arnaud: maybe publish both at the same time
18:45:23 <Arnaud> you guys don't have any noise anymore?
18:45:29 <Arnaud> because I do!
18:45:38 <kcoyle> hknublau: there are 2 more big syntax changes in the pipeline before republish
18:45:38 <Dimitris> q-
18:45:49 <kcoyle> no, we don't hear it anymore, so it's you
18:46:05 <Dimitris> Agree with Holger
18:47:37 <ericP> [[ This Working Draft is an alternate representation of the SHACL specification. It is not decided whether this will be a WG Note, a WG Recommendation, or an appendix of the SHACL specification. ]]
18:48:45 <kcoyle> topic: ISSUE-133
18:49:07 <hknublau> q+
18:49:12 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-133:_syntax
18:49:16 <hknublau> q-
18:50:28 <kcoyle> q+
18:50:39 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
18:53:56 <hknublau> q+
18:54:19 <kcoyle> kcoyle: does anyone else have examples? this would be used with flat data
18:54:55 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:55:21 <kcoyle> hknublau: merging node constraint and shape
18:56:48 <kcoyle> ... just Topic 4 for now
18:57:17 <kcoyle> q+
18:57:29 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
18:58:51 <Dimitris> q+
18:58:57 <ericP> q+ to ask how i recognize an unknown "parameter" from an annotation property on the shape
18:59:03 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
18:59:10 <kcoyle> kcoyle: what happens to non-sh comments in code?
18:59:34 <kcoyle> Dimitris: shacl allows other properties; doesn't make a different
18:59:41 <kcoyle> s/different/difference
19:00:14 <kcoyle> ... you can have other properties
19:00:14 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:00:14 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how i recognize an unknown "parameter" from an annotation property on the shape
19:00:42 <kcoyle> ericP: challenge is that because you don't forbid additional properties you don't know a new parameter from an annotation property
19:01:14 <kcoyle> ... there are 3-4 things attached to a shape right now; but there are ~20 on a node constraint
19:02:07 <kcoyle> ... hard to know which things you need to pay attention to
19:02:31 <kcoyle> Arnaud: also things like typos in the name - can warn about what is recognized
19:02:55 <hknublau> I don't think this is much different whether we merge the two or not.
19:03:17 <TallTed> q+q?
19:03:27 <TallTed> ack q?
19:04:18 <kcoyle> TallTed: 4 alternatives in this section, but only discussing 4a
19:05:03 <kcoyle> hknublau: these four are not either/or - they all could be done (4a-4d)
19:05:27 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/ISSUE-133
19:06:19 <jamsden> q+
19:06:30 <Arnaud> ack jamsden
19:07:02 <kcoyle> jamsden: relating to OSLC resource shapes: a graph has nodes and edges; edges are properties
19:07:18 <kcoyle> ... you would think that constraints would follow that - node and property constraints
19:07:56 <kcoyle> ... how do they relate to each other? nodes and edges are organized by nodes and edges - what is the shape in this?
19:08:09 <kcoyle> ... it looks like shape also plays a role to constrain a node
19:08:10 <hknublau> q+
19:08:35 <kcoyle> hknublau: they do overlap, and that's one of the reasons to merge them - they both can have filter shapes
19:08:47 <kcoyle> ... a property constraint also starts at the node
19:09:06 <kcoyle> ... so it is easier to merge them
19:09:43 <kcoyle> jamsden: thinking the same way, once concepts are covered, graph can contain node and property constraints; don't need something different for that
19:09:45 <TallTed> q+
19:10:16 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:10:17 <kcoyle> ... all we need is graph as a container, a scoping mechanism, a node constraint, and a property constraint, to be combined with and/or/not
19:10:31 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
19:11:19 <kcoyle> TallTed: looking at Wiki issue-133 page. Q: remove sh:constraint? but not obvious what else might be paralle to sh:constraint
19:11:41 <kcoyle> ... removing that container means that things in it become parallel to other things - what are those things?
19:12:15 <kcoyle> hknublau: only other thing that shape defines is scopes (in SHACL)
19:13:01 <kcoyle> TallTed: what other attributes might be applied to sh:closedShape that might cause a duplication because applies to node
19:13:31 <kcoyle> hknublau: replace sh:constraint with sh:shape - can still use sh:shape in other places
19:14:11 <kcoyle> TallTed: need to make the optionality clear
19:14:21 <kcoyle> hknublau: e.g. constraints with different severities
19:14:45 <ericP> q+
19:15:25 <Dimitris> q+
19:15:31 <kcoyle> Arnaud: we started with shapes, node constraints, property constraints - has a certain symmetry
19:15:32 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:16:04 <kcoyle> ericP: a parllel between what is in a pth constraint and what is in a node constraint; if we merge node & shape, we save one triple
19:16:39 <kcoyle> ... and we mix models : shape has paths, and we mix with node constraints in one bag
19:16:51 <kcoyle> .... could be harder both for users and implementers
19:17:05 <kcoyle> ... most cost than value
19:17:14 <Dimitris> q+
19:18:17 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
19:19:12 <kcoyle> Dimitris: agree with eric to says that shapes have scope and that contains constraints - although this is a syntax simplification, but I prefer not to do this
19:19:23 <jamsden> q+
19:19:29 <Arnaud> ack jamsden
19:19:54 <kcoyle> jamsden: property graphs are become popular for managing persistent data;
19:20:34 <kcoyle> ... graphs with nodes and edges; if we have a graph of data and graph of constrains, and both have nodes and edges
19:20:52 <hknublau> q+
19:20:53 <kcoyle> ... this might allow use of shacl in graph databases
19:21:02 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: a) merge Shape and NodeConstraint, b) don't merge Shape and NodeConstraint
19:21:15 <hknublau> a: +1 b: 0
19:21:22 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:21:27 <jamsden> a: +1, b: 0
19:21:29 <TallTed> a +1  b -0.5
19:21:33 <ericP> a: -.5, b: .5
19:21:40 <kcoyle> a) -.5 b) +1
19:21:47 <Dimitris> a) -0 b) +1
19:22:12 <pano> a: +1 b: 0
19:22:42 <kcoyle> 4,2
19:23:24 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Issue-139
19:25:02 <kcoyle> hknublau: keep extension mechanism as currently specified; but drop sh:context
19:26:07 <kcoyle> Dimitris: proposal ok, with a minor change; ok to leave extension mechanism as is
19:26:42 <kcoyle> Arnaud: do folks understand this compromise? (silence)
19:27:03 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-139, adopt Holger's compromise proposal https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Jul/0062.html
19:27:48 <Dimitris> +1
19:27:49 <TallTed> +1
19:27:50 <kcoyle> 0
19:27:55 <hknublau> -0.9
19:27:56 <jamsden> +0
19:28:24 <pano> 0
19:30:14 <kcoyle> ericP: justification may not be accurate.... in 2nd paragraph of text of 139
19:30:17 <TallTed> issue-139?
19:30:17 <trackbot> issue-139 -- Can all constraint properties be applied in all scenarios? -- open
19:30:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/139
19:31:28 <kcoyle> Dimitris: compromise is that we have universal applicability; with compromise on sparql extension, where it can be defined without universal applicability
19:32:12 <kcoyle> ... universal applicability but you can have more than one sparql query
19:32:42 <ericP> +ε
19:32:58 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-139, adopt Holger's compromise proposal https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Jul/0062.html
19:34:03 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
19:34:03 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:34:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been kcoyle, pano, Arnaud, TallTed, hknublau, ericP, jamsden
19:34:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:34:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/21-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
19:34:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:34:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:34:14 <Dimitris> Dimitris has left #shapes