18:41:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:41:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/19-aapi-irc
18:41:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
18:41:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:41:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:41:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:41:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:41:36 <trackbot> Date: 19 July 2016
18:43:13 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:43:34 <clown> agenda: this
18:43:39 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-1029/ACTION-2089 (Cynthia) Check for value events for splitters in UIA.
18:43:45 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-1029/ACTION-2075 (Joanie) Check AXAPI mappings of separator role.
18:43:53 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-676/ACTION-2083 (Joanie/Joseph) Identify ATK/AT-SPI states in the mappings
18:44:06 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-540:  Section describing AAPI differences.
18:44:11 <clown> agenda+ Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
18:44:18 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:44:25 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:44:30 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:44:36 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:45:22 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 26-Jul-2016, 20:00 UTC)
19:00:25 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:00:37 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:00:54 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:01:08 <clown> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:03:42 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:03:48 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:03:48 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-1029/ACTION-2089 (Cynthia) Check for value events for splitters in UIA." taken up [from clown]
19:03:51 <clown> issue-1029
19:03:51 <trackbot> issue-1029 -- Add mappings for interactive separator (window splitter). -- open
19:03:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1029
19:03:53 <joanie> JS: I really want to close this issue.
19:04:13 <joanie> JS: Which is the different mappings for hr versus splitter versus focusable splitter.
19:04:15 <clown> action-2089?
19:04:15 <trackbot> action-2089 -- Cynthia Shelly to Double check potential value events on windows when window-splitter changes position. -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN
19:04:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2089
19:04:18 <joanie> JS: There are two actions left.
19:04:24 <joanie> JS: One for Cynthia.
19:09:31 <cyns> Thumb events: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671652(v=vs.85).aspx#RequiredTextEvents
19:09:48 <cyns> bounding rectangle change event *might* get you what you're looking for?
19:10:23 <joanie> CS: The interactive splitter is a thumb.
19:10:33 <joanie> CS: The thumb isn't exactly tied to the window it's moving.
19:10:48 <joanie> CS: There's a bounding rectangle event that changes when you move the splitter.
19:10:59 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-separator
19:11:02 <joanie> CS: Which I suspect is not what you're asking about.
19:11:17 <joanie> JS: Ok, what do we want to put in the mapping?
19:11:37 <joanie> CS: We don't have a value property.
19:11:46 <joanie> CS: You can tell where the splitter has moved to.
19:11:55 <joanie> CS: From which you can derive the value.
19:12:03 <joanie> CS: But that would be work on the AT side.
19:12:15 <joanie> JD: Could the user agent do the calculation?
19:12:34 <joanie> CS: I think I would have a hard time convincing developers to do that.
19:12:52 <joanie> CS: They would probably want to add features to UIA instead.
19:13:18 <joanie> CS: What are you looking for Joanie?
19:13:45 <joanie> JD: My platform is fine because authors have to provide the values and my platform has a place to put those values.
19:14:20 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#separator
19:15:02 <joanie> CS: UIA has two different kind of values.
19:15:11 <joanie> CS: And valuenow is only supported on things with ranges.
19:15:22 <joanie> CS: So putting a range value on a splitter seems bizarre.
19:15:27 <joanie> JD: Not to me.
19:15:41 <joanie> CS: So we'd have to change the mapping of valuenow if it's on a splitter.
19:17:54 <joanie> JD: (Explanation of why values are needed on her platform)
19:18:18 <joanie> CS: When I looked last, there didn't seem to be a need for the current value.
19:20:35 <joanie> JS: The spec says that if the separator is focusable, authors MUST set the value of valuenow.
19:20:49 <joanie> JS: And authors SHOULD set the value of valuemin and valuemax.
19:20:54 <joanie> CS: We could stick it in range value.
19:21:09 <joanie> CS: I'm just now sure how useful or usable it's going to be.
19:21:37 <joanie> s/now sure/not sure/
19:21:51 <joanie> CS: Since the mapping should just happen, I can play with it now and see how it works.
19:22:12 <joanie> JS: This might come up again when we get to testing.
19:22:27 <joanie> CS: I think that aria-valuenow is used, it will automatically get mapped.
19:22:45 <joanie> JS: That leads me to believe that I don't need to do anything to the mapping spec.
19:23:23 <joanie> CS: For UIA, I don't think you do need to do anything.
19:23:35 <joanie> JS: Bryan, do you have a test case in the APG yet?
19:23:38 <joanie> BG: No.
19:23:47 <joanie> JS: Let me do a quick check to see what Dojo does.
19:23:55 <joanie> JS: Because I know they have them.
19:24:57 <clown> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/layout/test_SplitContainer.html
19:25:18 <joanie> JS: The above URL has the test case.
19:25:49 <joanie> JS: Looking at it with the inspector....
19:26:30 <joanie> JS: I can see elements for the container.
19:26:41 <joanie> JS: Oh, the splitter comes into existence when I click on it.
19:26:45 <joanie> JS: But it has nothing on it.
19:27:27 <joanie> JS: The top value keeps changing.
19:28:19 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
19:29:11 <joanie> (Side discussion about group and pane)
19:29:53 <clown> action-2089
19:29:53 <trackbot> action-2089 -- Cynthia Shelly to Double check potential value events on windows when window-splitter changes position. -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN
19:29:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2089
19:30:46 <joanie> CS: I cannot guarantee Narrator is going to do anything useful with the valuenow, but we'll see.
19:31:01 <joanie> JS: I'm making a note in the action.
19:31:37 <joanie> JS: And I'm going to close the action unless anyone objects.
19:31:40 <joanie> CS: Works for me.
19:31:59 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:31:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-1029/ACTION-2075 (Joanie) Check AXAPI mappings of separator role." taken up [from clown]
19:32:14 <joanie> JD: I just commented on the action.
19:32:15 <clown> action-2075
19:32:15 <trackbot> action-2075 -- Joanmarie Diggs to AXAPI mapping of role="separator", when it is a widget (window splitter). -- due 2016-06-02 -- OPEN
19:32:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2075
19:34:13 <joanie> JS: I'm inclined to close this as well, and nothing needs to change in the Core AAM.
19:34:50 <joanie> JS: Objections?
19:35:14 <joanie> JD: No. If it turns out we need to say anything in the mapping spec regarding value, we can create a new action.
19:35:22 <joanie> JS: It's probably AXValue.
19:35:28 <joanie> JD: That would be my guess.
19:35:41 <joanie> JS: This action is closed.
19:35:52 <joanie> JS: That means the issue is now closable too. Finally.
19:36:00 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:36:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-676/ACTION-2083 (Joanie/Joseph) Identify ATK/AT-SPI states in the mappings" taken up [from clown]
19:36:11 <joanie> JD: I need another couple of weeks.
19:36:14 <clown> issue-676?
19:36:14 <trackbot> issue-676 -- Is it useful to identify MSAA+IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI actions, interfaces, and relations in the mappings? -- open
19:36:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/676
19:36:37 <joanie> action-2083
19:36:37 <trackbot> action-2083 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Review and update ATK/AT-SPI2 states in Core AAM -- due 2016-06-21 -- OPEN
19:36:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2083
19:36:56 <joanie> JS: I have a question.
19:37:21 <joanie> agenda?
19:37:49 <joanie> JS: I want to associate this action with issue-676.
19:38:05 <joanie> JS: And close issue-1033 as a duplicate.
19:38:10 <joanie> JS: Is that ok with you?
19:38:12 <joanie> JD: Sure.
19:39:14 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:14 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-540:  Section describing AAPI differences." taken up [from clown]
19:39:21 <clown> issue-540
19:39:21 <trackbot> issue-540 -- Should the UAIG have a section to describe the API differences -- open
19:39:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/540
19:39:25 <joanie> JS: I think this one is dead too.
19:39:32 <joanie> JS: Jason Kiss raised this a while ago.
19:39:39 <joanie> JS: Various people went off and wrote things.
19:39:53 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#comparing-accessibility-apis
19:39:57 <joanie> JS: All the actions associated with this issue are done.
19:40:09 <joanie> JS: The URL above has the relevant content.
19:40:18 <joanie> JS: I'm inclined to close this as complete.
19:40:23 <joanie> JS: Does anyone think otherwise?
19:40:31 <joanie> CS: Let me look at it a bit more.
19:40:53 <joanie> CS: I think it's fine.
19:41:04 <joanie> JS: Anyone else want to keep it open?
19:41:38 <joanie> JS: Hearing no objections, I'm closing it.
19:41:41 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:41:41 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23" taken up [from clown]
19:42:01 <clown> issue-541?
19:42:01 <trackbot> issue-541 -- Text Alt Comp too specific to ARIA attributes (aria-valuetext and aria-valuenow) -- open
19:42:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/541
19:42:18 <joanie> JS: Aside from being in the wrong place.... James Craig raised this back in 2012.
19:42:27 <joanie> JS: He said it's too specific.
19:42:47 <joanie> JS: He's mostly worried about aria-valuenow and aria-valuetext.
19:42:56 <joanie> JS: He proposes we change the text to reflect range.
19:43:14 <joanie> JS: I thought I had made this change independent of this issue.
19:43:25 <joanie> CS: I'm hesitant to make significant changes to the AccName spec.
19:43:32 <joanie> JS: (Reads text from spec)
19:43:58 <joanie> JS: It's almost the same as what James had suggested.
19:44:16 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#mapping_additional_nd_name#step2E
19:44:23 <joanie> JS: URL is above.
19:44:33 <joanie> JS: It's the fourth bullet James was concerned about.
19:45:13 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#step2E
19:45:24 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/541
19:45:27 <joanie> JD: Corrected (slightly) direct URL.
19:45:36 <joanie> s/URL./URL above./
19:45:45 <joanie> JS: His language is in issue-541.
19:46:32 <joanie> scribe: Text of 4th bullet If the embedded control has role range (e.g., a spinbutton or slider):
19:46:45 <joanie> If the aria-valuetext property is present, return its value,
19:46:45 <joanie> Otherwise, if the aria-valuenow property is present, return its value,
19:46:46 <joanie> Otherwise, use the value as specified by a host language attribute.
19:47:07 <joanie> s/scribe:/JD:/
19:47:24 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:47:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
19:47:26 <clown> "If the embedded control is a range (e.g., a spinbutton or slider), use the value of the aria-valuetext attribute if available, or otherwise the value of the aria-valuenow attribute."
19:47:52 <joanie> JS: Above is the text James suggested.
19:48:09 <joanie> JD: Wow, it is nearly identical. Great minds and all that.
19:48:16 <joanie> JS: I'm going to close this issue then.
19:48:42 <joanie> issue-587
19:48:42 <trackbot> issue-587 -- Consider allowing the aria-selected state on any focusable element, or add a new attr like aria-active or aria-current -- open
19:48:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/587
19:48:51 <joanie> JS: This one can probably be closed.
19:48:58 <joanie> JS: It goes way back to 2013.
19:49:27 <joanie> JS: Steve Faulkner wanted state selected on more elements, e.g. to identicate the current item in a table of contents.
19:49:33 <joanie> JS: We now have aria-current.
19:49:40 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaCurrent
19:49:51 <joanie> JS: We have mappings for it. I think it's well-documented in the spec.
19:49:59 <joanie> JS: Therefore I don't think we need this issue any more.
19:50:16 <joanie> JS: It has about seven actions which are all closed.
19:50:24 <joanie> JS: So I think it's done.
19:50:36 <joanie> JS: Objections to closing it?
19:50:39 <joanie> <crickets>
19:50:43 <joanie> JS: Closed.
19:51:09 <joanie> issue-594
19:51:09 <trackbot> issue-594 -- tablist role has implicit live region mapping in UIA guide -- open
19:51:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/594
19:51:33 <joanie> JS: This is back when we called it the User Agent Implementation Guide.
19:51:41 <joanie> JS: Back then tablist was a live region.
19:51:44 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=896400
19:51:56 <joanie> JS: Marco pointed it out (see above bugzilla link).
19:52:06 <joanie> JS: And they changed it to not be a live region any more.
19:52:10 <joanie> CS: Sounds done.
19:52:24 <joanie> JS: (Reads comments from bug)
19:52:32 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-tablist
19:52:39 <joanie> JS: There are a bunch of patches and it's marked RESOLVED FIXED.
19:53:27 <joanie> JS: Looking at the Core AAM, it's not mapped/exposed as a live region.
19:53:27 <clown> action-1435
19:53:27 <trackbot> action-1435 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Edit the ia2 and atk/at-spi entries for role tablist to remove the live region aspects of the mapping. -- due 2014-05-13 -- CLOSED
19:53:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1435
19:53:34 <joanie> JS: I have a note in action-1435.
19:53:46 <joanie> JS: I need this change back in may of 2014.
19:54:02 <joanie> JS: But I kept the issue open because there are test cases that pass back in ARIA 1.0.
19:54:12 <joanie> JS: So those test cases would have to change.
19:54:20 <joanie> JS: I don't think we're going to test this again.
19:54:32 <joanie> CS: If the test cases are still hanging around, then they'll fail.
19:54:44 <joanie> CS: So we need to update the test cases.
19:54:51 <joanie> CS: Assign that to me.
19:55:08 <clown> action: cynthia to adjust IA2 and ATK test cases for role tablist to remove the test of the liveregion properties as they are no longer supported.
19:55:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2101 - Adjust ia2 and atk test cases for role tablist to remove the test of the liveregion properties as they are no longer supported. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-07-26].
19:55:15 <clown> action-2101
19:55:15 <trackbot> action-2101 -- Cynthia Shelly to Adjust ia2 and atk test cases for role tablist to remove the test of the liveregion properties as they are no longer supported. -- due 2016-07-26 -- OPEN
19:55:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2101
19:55:35 <joanie> CS: Give me a month.
19:55:54 <joanie> JS: Ok. And I'll associate it with the test-plan product.
19:55:58 <joanie> CS: Sure.
19:56:40 <joanie> JS: I'm going to close the issue.
19:58:43 <joanie> issue-609
19:58:43 <trackbot> issue-609 -- Text Alt Comp section does not explicitly disallow empty strings as a valid label -- open
19:58:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/609
19:58:58 <joanie> JS: This is another raised by James Craig about AccName.
19:59:11 <joanie> JS: James wants verbiage to say that empty labels are not valid.
19:59:16 <joanie> JS: I tend to agree with him.
19:59:19 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112842
19:59:27 <joanie> JS: An empty string is not a name.
19:59:37 <joanie> JS: And he wants to fall back on title.
19:59:43 <joanie> JS: But that's already in the name computation.
20:00:20 <joanie> JS: Fred wants to know if labels which consist of nothing but whitespace are legitimate accessible names.
20:00:28 <joanie> JS: I'm tempted to say "no".
20:00:43 <joanie> CS: I think disallowing empty strings for aria-label makes perfect sense.
20:03:17 <joanie> (Discussion about which spec such a prohibition would belong)
20:03:34 <joanie> JD: And we're in theory feature-frozen for the ARIA spec.
20:03:47 <joanie> JS: I'm going to think about this a bit more.
20:06:05 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:06:26 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:06:26 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
20:06:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:06:35 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:06:43 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop