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14:30:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:30:12 <trackbot> Date: 08 July 2016
14:30:35 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/018401d1d884$d8134800$8839d800$@illinois.edu
14:52:53 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
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14:55:06 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
14:57:44 <uskudarli> uskudarli has joined #annotation
14:59:06 <TimCole> Regrets:  Paolo Ciccarese
14:59:25 <Janina_> Janina_ has joined #annotation
14:59:31 <TimCole> Regrets: Frederick Hirsch
14:59:48 <TimCole> Regrets: Dan Whaley
15:00:04 <TimCole> Regrets+: Dan Whaley
15:00:30 <TimCole> Regrets+ Dan Whaley
15:00:33 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:00:42 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
15:00:47 <TimCole> Regrets+ Frederick Hirsch
15:01:05 <TimCole> Regrets+ Paolo Ciccarese
15:01:28 <azaroth> Regrets+ Randall_Leeds
15:01:34 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
15:01:35 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
15:01:39 <azaroth> Regrets+ Ben_De_Meester
15:01:43 <Jacob> Present+ Jacob_Jett
15:01:59 <azaroth> Regrets+ Shane_McCarron
15:02:20 <tbdinesh> Present+ TB_Dinesh
15:02:30 <TimCole> Regrets+ Randall Leeds
15:03:06 <TimCole> Regrets+ Ben De Meester
15:03:13 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:04:52 <TimCole> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the last WG call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/06/24-annotation-minutes.html
15:04:58 <azaroth> +1
15:05:02 <Jacob> +1
15:05:09 <ivan> +1
15:05:11 <TimCole> scribenick: azaroth
15:05:22 <azaroth> RESOLUTION: Minutes of the last WG call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/06/24-annotation-minutes.html
15:05:36 <TimCole> Topic: CR Status
15:05:58 <azaroth> Ivan: We have two published specs, model and vocab, on Tuesday. Went out with no problems
15:06:07 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
15:06:34 <azaroth> ... Had a hiccough with the TAG issue that wasn't properly handled, but we got closure on Wednesday, and have everything to get it published
15:06:41 <azaroth> ... Have a reply this morning that the document is ready to go
15:06:52 <azaroth> ... So don't expect any problems and it will be published on Tuesday next week
15:06:53 <Loqi> I added a countdown for 7/12 12:00am (#5867)
15:07:16 <azaroth> ... Editors and Chairs will be on the hook for any issues that might come up, as I'll be on vacation
15:07:40 <azaroth> ... Have some editorial feedback (Rob and Benjamin) already, but will deal with it after tuesday
15:07:49 <azaroth> TimCole: Any further comments?
15:08:10 <azaroth> Rob: Hooray! :)
15:08:20 <azaroth> Tim, Ivan: A very important milestone :)
15:08:22 <TimCole> Topic: Testing
15:08:58 <azaroth> TimCole: There was some notes from Shane, that he has closed his pull request
15:09:14 <azaroth> Benjamin: He had been asked to squash the commit history into a single commit
15:09:45 <azaroth> ... He was going to try and squash down to only the important commits, and rename to be more consistent
15:10:11 <azaroth> ... The reason to do it is to not have the master list expanded by many new commit messages that overwhelm other messages in the history
15:10:32 <azaroth> ... Shane now cleaning up his local history and will send a new PR
15:10:44 <azaroth> ... Hopefully doesn't restart the process, but it is blocked on Shane's work
15:11:09 <azaroth> TimCole: Trying to get local version up, ran into some issues. Also confused about spec-ops and w3c test environments
15:11:13 <azaroth> ... Are they the same thing?
15:11:31 <azaroth> bigbluehat: He has write access to spec-ops, w3c are the gatekeepers with the PR requirements
15:11:40 <azaroth> ... If not added there, then not part of the W3C test suite
15:11:49 <azaroth> TimCole: Relationship to our own annotation-test repo?
15:12:02 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Canonical source of where we keep the schema and tests, regardless of the infrastructure
15:12:12 <azaroth> ... decided to do that to avoid getting blocked on WPT if there's other tools
15:12:32 <azaroth> ... WPT can pull from it periodically, but regardless of how those politics go, we still have our schema for testing
15:12:44 <azaroth> TimCole: Test scripts are tailored for the runner?
15:12:56 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Yes, but could write code to handle those too.
15:13:12 <azaroth> TimCole: Have some runner scripts, as you can't test without a runner
15:13:50 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Best to keep them in web anno tests. If WPT fails, which doesn't seem likely just a little slowed, having our tests is useful to have in our own repo, so more tools can benefit
15:13:52 <TimCole> q?
15:14:00 <azaroth> ... they're not dependent on any run time, just descriptive docs
15:14:08 <azaroth> TimCole: This has been about the data model
15:14:15 <azaroth> q+
15:14:25 <TimCole> scribenick: TimCole
15:14:58 <TimCole> azaroth: when and how can we get the annotations that ??? produces to test?
15:15:14 <TimCole> bigbluehat: Are you wanting a place to past these examples?
15:15:40 <TimCole> azaroth: yes, so that we can demonstrate end-to-end, albeit incomplete.
15:15:53 <bigbluehat> http://shane.spec-ops.io:8000/
15:15:59 <TimCole> ... the sooner we get that done the sooner we get more implementations
15:16:23 <TimCole> bigbluehat: we can use Shane's server in the short term
15:16:56 <TimCole> ivan: in many respects from the CR point of view what counts is to get back an implementation report from ???
15:17:06 <TimCole> ... in a format that Greg K. can process
15:17:15 <TimCole> ack azaroth
15:18:04 <TimCole> azaroth: given Shane is not on the call and has to worry about the WPT process, can someone help with this first end-to-end
15:18:11 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
15:18:25 <azaroth> TimCole: It looks simple, but there were some difficulties
15:18:33 <azaroth> ... the runner doesn't work in my install
15:18:40 <azaroth> ... it gets hung making the manifest
15:18:44 <azaroth> ... What OS are you using?
15:18:51 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Windows, and ran into compile trouble
15:19:43 <azaroth> TimCole: I just cloned the repo and it started okay, but it got stuck.  If someone was able to get it running, and we had the japanese examples, we could then generate a report to send to Gregg
15:19:46 <azaroth> +1
15:20:09 <azaroth> ... Wondering if we need a place to save the annotations?
15:21:01 <azaroth> Rob: With the intent to save them and rerun with new tests, or a different feature matrix
15:21:51 <azaroth> Ivan: No analogy to it in other groups. No harm to storing them, closer to the tests would be good. Nice to have, not a requirement
15:23:18 <azaroth> TimCole: You were thinking of starting with the japanese demo?
15:23:32 <azaroth> Rob: Yes, did an implementation of a client for IIIF, could do the round trip test
15:23:44 <azaroth> TimCole: Should identify a folder in the Web Anno Test repo for storing annotations to test
15:24:11 <tbdinesh> kamazaki annotator does not seen to work... for me.
15:24:19 <azaroth> ... Seems simple enough.
15:24:26 <azaroth> Rob: Separate per implementation
15:25:27 <azaroth> Dinesh:  That implementation doesn't work for me. It just says preparing, it doesn't allow annoting the image
15:25:39 <azaroth> Rob: I tried only with the example images they have
15:25:51 <azaroth> Dinesh:  Will try more and write a report
15:26:12 <azaroth> TimCole: I know shane has other things going on, I wonder if we need an implementation of the platform we can use?
15:26:28 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Need to know what Gregg needs for the report.  Then just running AJV over it several times
15:26:44 <azaroth> TimCole: Let's try and get that going. Need implementations to get started with the tests as soon as we can
15:27:02 <TimCole> q?
15:27:30 <azaroth> Ivan: Would be worth reaching out to people we know are planning to implement to get them rolling
15:27:42 <azaroth> TimCole: Need to give them something to work with. Europeana is anxious to start
15:27:56 <azaroth> ... Need somewhere to put the annotations and how to run the tests.
15:28:09 <azaroth> ivan: Might be worth talking to the Pund.it people, what they plan to do
15:28:21 <azaroth> ... They said they want to transition to the model, but don't remember about timing
15:28:56 <tbdinesh> (FYI: it throws this error after a while. will write to him. image-annotator?u=http://static.zerochan.net/Uchiha.Sasuke.full.678195.jpg:31 Uncaught ReferenceError: tiledesc is not defined )
15:29:10 <azaroth> Rob: Don't recall if they were clean on timing
15:29:41 <azaroth> Ivan:  Europeana, Pundit, Hypothes.is, IIIF all good targets
15:29:57 <azaroth> TimCole: That gives us some work to do while Ivan is on vacation :)
15:30:03 <azaroth> ... Benjamin, protocol testing?
15:30:26 <azaroth> bigbluehat: I've begun reorganizing the tests I have, and the tests for the tester, based on the PR that Rob and I went through with the plan to put in after CR
15:30:33 <azaroth> ... Easier to test.
15:30:39 <azaroth> TimCole: Just editorial?
15:30:47 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Yes, just clearer and better structured
15:31:01 <azaroth> ... the code in WPT can be run separately from the wpt-serve system
15:31:17 <azaroth> ... server could be made standalone and generate its own reports, if we need to
15:31:45 <azaroth> ... protocol tester project has come a long way, so intend to finish that out and have people use to test protocol implementaitons
15:31:55 <azaroth> ... then finish my protocol implementation to let clients test against that
15:32:02 <azaroth> TimCole: Is it in github yet?
15:32:09 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Yes, in a weird spot at the moment
15:32:22 <azaroth> ... a work in progress
15:32:24 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests/pull/3
15:32:40 <azaroth> ... in need of rebasing
15:32:57 <azaroth> ... :tophat:
15:33:18 <azaroth> TimCole: thoughts on the issues with WPT PRs
15:33:44 <azaroth> bigbluehat: When you work with someone else's code, they have opinions about how it should all be done
15:34:06 <azaroth> ... not sure how broken it is. Sounds like he knows what's needed, just needs to have the time to do it
15:34:22 <azaroth> ... some of his commits are in front of my PR, so you can see what he was trying to curate
15:34:56 <azaroth> TimCole: For what you're doing and for the model, when do we go forwards? Only have a small percentage of the schemas written
15:35:09 <azaroth> bigbluehat: So long as the test structures don't change wildly, no need to wait
15:35:28 <azaroth> ... should ensure he can work on things when he has time, and not pulled off in other directions
15:35:37 <azaroth> ... How are you testing the scripts now?
15:35:43 <azaroth> TimCole: ajv command line
15:35:53 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Could write those up, and in lieu of WPT, could point at the readme
15:36:04 <tbdinesh> +1 bigbluehat
15:36:05 <azaroth> ... or wrap the commands in a script
15:36:26 <azaroth> TimCole: Other thing we've been doing is saving incorrect annotations to make sure the schema catches them
15:36:46 <azaroth> ... so can say annotation doesn't correctly implement as it leaves out a required key
15:36:57 <azaroth> ivan: same for the protocol.  THere's a number of MUSTs that need to be checked
15:37:16 <azaroth> ... the changes, should wait until Tuesday before committing
15:37:32 <azaroth> TimCole: We won't talk about them till after Tuesday :)
15:38:09 <azaroth> ivan: I won't be here, so I created a Release in GH. If someone can create a protocol release that would be good.
15:38:41 <azaroth> ... the changes on the protocol spec are good, fully behind it.  I ran into the same problems understanding the paging.
15:38:53 <azaroth> ... Made me realize my toy implementation is buggy :)
15:39:16 <azaroth> ... That's the real value of CR
15:39:31 <azaroth> TimCole: Both model and protocol for the next couple of weeks, we'll have something to point implementers to
15:39:37 <azaroth> ... that's what we're shooting for?
15:39:57 <azaroth> ... combination of documentation and a little client/server tester
15:40:05 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Ship everything as soon as possible
15:40:12 <azaroth> TimCole: Don't want to miss the window of interest
15:40:23 <azaroth> ... where are we on vocab testing?  Primarily the context doc?
15:40:50 <azaroth> ivan: Already have a test ... forgot to update the context and the new one works for the japanese demo
15:40:54 <azaroth> TimCole: A good data point
15:41:31 <azaroth> ivan: Not all the implementations will use the context. Most won't be RDF based. I know the guy is semantic, so he did some testing by putting the data into an RDF store
15:41:36 <azaroth> ... That can be documented
15:41:37 <azaroth> q+
15:41:42 <azaroth> ... same will hold for Europeana
15:42:04 <azaroth> Rob:  At least transform through RDF on the way in and out
15:42:24 <azaroth> ivan: vocab testing is really about that -- the context reflects the vocabulary the way it should.  A bit shallow but good data points
15:42:30 <azaroth> ... Need to record them.
15:42:36 <TimCole> scribenick: TimCole
15:42:44 <TimCole> azaroth: similart vocab data point
15:43:16 <TimCole> ... recent updates to my implementation of protocol transforms both ways json-ld to rdf to json-ld via context and frames
15:43:25 <TimCole> ... turtle to json-ld and vice versa
15:43:45 <TimCole> ... I could extract code and make stand-alone as a demo of ability to do this
15:43:57 <TimCole> ivan: yes, this is good,
15:44:00 <azaroth> scribenick:  azaroth
15:44:08 <azaroth> TimCole: Would be good to document it
15:44:23 <azaroth> Ivan: Do you have a feeling of the RDF terms we define are in use?
15:45:00 <TimCole> scribenick: TimColle
15:45:12 <TimCole> azaroth: client implementation is just images
15:45:36 <TimCole> ... so svg selector, uses format, textual body, created, no creator yet
15:45:47 <TimCole> ... all the core stuff, but not the text stuff
15:46:11 <TimCole> ivan: adding a single table that these are the terms that have been used by x implementation(s)
15:46:25 <TimCole> ... we asked each of the implementations to keep track
15:46:39 <TimCole> ... to help us keep track, nothing else than an HTML table
15:46:58 <TimCole> ... so when skos was defined it was always a question about actual usage of the vocabulary
15:47:10 <TimCole> azaroth: yes, I can generate such a table.
15:47:11 <bigbluehat> +1
15:47:21 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
15:47:26 <azaroth> TimCole: Anything else about vocab testing?
15:47:49 <azaroth> Ivan: can document usage and context mapping. That's what we said we'd do on the transition call
15:48:08 <azaroth> TimCole: What else today?
15:48:10 <TimCole> q?
15:48:15 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:48:57 <ivan> present+ takeshi
15:49:02 <tbdinesh> we have tried a bit. will see if i can put together a "team" :)
15:49:03 <azaroth> ... Nothing else?
15:49:32 <azaroth> ... should we invite the japanese and europeana folks to one of our calls to discuss testing with them?
15:49:41 <azaroth> ... assuming we have something for them to use
15:49:47 <bigbluehat> +1 to hearing from implementers we know about
15:50:16 <bigbluehat> takeshi++ for being awesome
15:50:16 <Loqi> takeshi has 1 karma
15:50:21 <azaroth> Rob: Hard for the combination of Europe and Japan!
15:50:28 <bigbluehat> takeshi++ for being way more awesome than 1 karma point!
15:50:29 <Loqi> takeshi has 2 karma
15:50:35 <azaroth> TimCole: By email then when we have something to show
15:50:45 <azaroth> ... Can adjourn unless there's other business
15:51:01 <azaroth> ... will make progress on the schemas. If anyone wants to help, please jump in
15:51:27 <azaroth> ivan: By the time I come back from vacation... ?
15:51:33 <azaroth> TimCole: Should at least have some test results :)
15:51:36 <bigbluehat> ivan: you've earned this vacation to be sure!
15:51:38 <azaroth> ... When do you come back?
15:51:41 <azaroth> +1
15:51:45 <azaroth> ivan: 1st of August
15:51:49 <takeshi> q+
15:52:00 <azaroth> ack takeshi
15:52:05 <TimCole> ack take
15:52:20 <azaroth> takeshi: Checking the json-ld, and looked at the RFC for the profile URI
15:52:38 <azaroth> ... have developed a profile URI in the protocol, and should provide the information to the RFC
15:52:44 <takeshi> https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc7284.txt
15:52:53 <TimCole> scribenick: TimCole
15:53:13 <TimCole> azaroth: at TPAC last year we discussed with Heather whether it would be possible to register
15:53:27 <TimCole> ... a profile without registering a media type
15:53:52 <TimCole> ... so we could register a profile
15:53:56 <bigbluehat> there's a separate profile registry iirc
15:54:01 <TimCole> ... we should do that
15:54:06 <bigbluehat> oh...right RFC7284 >_>
15:54:09 <TimCole> ivan: do we know how to do that
15:54:23 <TimCole> azaroth: not clear since no one has registered a profile URI yet
15:54:26 <bigbluehat> start now, I'd say
15:54:39 <TimCole> ivan: this worries me, having been through some of this before
15:54:51 <TimCole> ... there is no way to register a fragment id propertly
15:55:10 <bigbluehat> ...which means its not an official thing yet
15:55:16 <TimCole> ... not fully up to date with ietf, but this is just an informational document by Markus
15:55:18 <bigbluehat> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7284/
15:55:21 <bigbluehat> full status ^^
15:55:36 <TimCole> ... I presume Rob was in contact with Markus on some of this
15:55:55 <TimCole> ... so perhaps Rob should contact Markus directly to ascertain status
15:56:09 <bigbluehat> send it to me, I'll +1 it and send it back. promise
15:56:12 <TimCole> azaroth: in Example 3 of the document there is a sample registration submittal
15:56:29 <TimCole> ivan: with regard to media types there is a W3C agreement with ietf
15:56:45 <TimCole> ... such that media type defined in W3C document gets properly registered
15:56:55 <TimCole> ... not sure if it works the same way for profile
15:57:17 <TimCole> azaroth: will make an issue in git hub (PR milestone) to get in touch with ietf
15:57:22 <TimCole> q?
15:58:21 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/08-annotation-minutes.html ivan
15:58:31 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
15:58:31 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:58:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rob_Sanderson, Ivan, Benjamin_Young, Jacob_Jett, TB_Dinesh, Tim_Cole, takeshi
15:58:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:58:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/08-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
15:58:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:58:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items