12:08:39 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 12:08:39 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-dpub-irc 12:08:46 rrsagent, set log public 12:08:58 Meeting: DPUB IG Virtual F2F meeting 12:09:42 ivan has changed the topic to: F2F WebEx data: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2016_2nd_Virtual_F2F 12:09:51 Chair: Tzviya, Markus 12:09:55 baldurbjarnason has joined #dpub 12:17:44 I’ve been going through the mailing list archive and can’t for the life of me find the meeting password that’s supposed to be in some earlier message. Any pointers? 12:25:52 dpig 12:26:09 :-) 12:29:48 sam has joined #dpub 12:32:03 rdeltour has joined #dpub 12:33:08 dauwhe has joined #dpub 12:34:39 tzviya has joined #dpub 12:45:36 Excellent, thank you. 12:51:19 NickRuffilo has joined #dpub 12:54:32 Damn, I had hoped that could be my catchphrase. 12:55:37 rego_ has joined #dpub 12:56:25 HeatherF has joined #dpub 12:56:33 rdeltour has joined #dpub 12:57:21 present+ HeatherFlanagan 12:57:30 Avneesh has joined #dpub 12:57:45 present+ dauwhe 12:57:52 Present+ Ivan, Baldur, Nick, Tzviya 12:58:35 present+ Avneesh 12:59:13 tzviya has joined #dpub 12:59:39 paged view: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/ 12:59:45 scribenick: dauwhe 12:59:53 GitHub Repo: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr 12:59:57 chair: Tzviya 13:00:09 present+ bdjmeest 13:00:14 bjdmeest has joined #dpub 13:00:19 present+ Tzviya 13:00:27 Present+ Ben_De_Meester 13:00:31 regrets+ Markus, Bill_Kasdorf 13:01:14 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbyE5AncXKb77fufax8cXjtZsFmpEjI_C_-nAuym6bA/edit#heading=h.b11s5c58fxp9 13:01:20 (chatter about repos and google docs) 13:02:39 clapierre has joined #DPUB 13:03:23 s/feature/bug/ 13:03:51 tzviya: focusing on section 2 of the use cases 13:04:25 ... we've tried to build some model use cases 13:04:44 ... some are based on the web annotations use cases 13:05:28 present+ Charles_LaPierre 13:05:51 ... we hope to have a final version of the use cases for TPAC 13:06:06 ... and there's the usual summer slowness 13:06:17 ... feel free to add use cases on your own! 13:06:18 q? 13:06:29 ... let's go to the google doc 13:06:41 present+ George 13:07:03 ... let's start with 2.1.1. 13:07:16 ... (reads from use case) 13:08:35 Avneesh: how should we structure it? 13:08:37 present+ Avneesh 13:08:44 ... from tech POV or user POV? 13:09:13 ... we do the user POV, and then the technical issue 13:09:29 tzviya: we're using the structure that web annotations used 13:09:36 ... putting the requirement before the use case 13:09:54 ... because we feel the annotations use cases are very readable, in our opinion 13:10:10 ... we have a requirement and then examples 13:10:24 Avneesh: tech requirements first, then user POV? 13:10:27 tzviya: yes 13:10:41 ... we're focusing on section 2, which is why PWP needs to exist 13:10:45 It might be clearer to see the structure in the actual HTML than the Google doc: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/ 13:10:59 ... anything else that is missing from section two? 13:11:00 q+ 13:11:19 ... some say everything you can do in books can already be done in browsers? 13:11:24 ack iv 13:11:33 q+ 13:11:37 ivan: section two as it stands is incomplete 13:11:48 ... there are a number of requirements that I added to the list 13:11:54 ... that I think are fundamental 13:12:03 ... but I did not find the time to fill it 13:12:09 ... like 2.1.6 13:12:20 Present+ Benjamin_Young 13:12:30 ... this is something publishers would need as it's part of their business model 13:12:35 ... but needs to be described 13:12:56 .... 2.1.8 needs to be filled in 13:13:07 ... 2.2.3 and 2.2.4, we should fill those in 13:13:15 ... to complete those would be a good start 13:13:35 ... do we need any more of these fundamental things? 13:13:43 ack ni 13:13:51 ... how do we convince someone who works for a browser and things everything is already perfect 13:14:00 NickRuffilo: does this answer why we need PWP? 13:14:05 ... there's a duality here 13:14:14 ... publishers need things to get to the web 13:14:33 ... and there are things that need a package 13:14:49 ... mathml can exist inside or outside package 13:15:17 ... should we separate these things? 13:15:33 ivan: I would prefer to have all the requirements listed 13:15:57 ... once we have essential requirements, we can prioritize/filter 13:16:06 ... for the time being I want a laundry list 13:16:32 ... there are different communities now--when I re-edited section 2, I made subsections 13:16:45 ... some are for readers, some are implementation requirements 13:16:55 ... maybe it's worth separating later 13:17:17 ... let's complete the list, and only then think about reconfiguring 13:17:45 tzviya: we should focus on the uniquely portable, or the uniquely publishing-centric 13:17:55 ... let's focus on the ones that Ivan highlighted 13:18:03 ... 2.1.6 13:18:20 There's that scary "package" word! 13:18:21 ... (reads title) 13:18:45 ... this is related to distribution, archiving... it's the business model of publishing. Any suggestions for wording? 13:18:50 q+ 13:18:50 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbyE5AncXKb77fufax8cXjtZsFmpEjI_C_-nAuym6bA/edit?usp=sharing 13:18:53 ack h 13:19:27 HeatherF: the word "package" causes some people to focus on file formats... is there another word? 13:19:39 tzviya: maybe 13:19:59 ivan: I think you're right... everyone would think of zip, or non-zip 13:20:28 ... "...the publication as a unit" 13:20:53 dauwhe: is this word so toxic that we need to expend effort to avoid it? 13:21:21 NickRuffilo: can we use the word archive? 13:21:33 tzviya: archive has its own meaning 13:21:40 ivan: it has it's own use cases 13:22:09 s/it's/its/ 13:23:11 ivan: we need to talk about the single unit 13:23:35 ... what does it mean to be a single unit? 13:23:43 NickRuffilo: are we defining the technical solution? 13:24:15 ivan: we shouldn't think about the tech solution. What do we mean when we say a publication is a single unit? 13:25:25 tzviya: a pwp, no matter how many pieces it consists of ,must be distributable as a single unit so that readers can purchase/share/consume/acquire 13:25:39 ... then we talk about libraries, stores... 13:26:23 ivan: the current business model of publishers relies on the ability to sell or distribute a single unit over various channels 13:26:59 tzviya: we have the consumer and reader perspectives, now we need a publisher perspective 13:28:36 fwiw, Web Packaging used the word "Parts" for the "single unit" text https://www.w3.org/TR/web-packaging/#parts 13:28:39 (the topic which cannot be named was briefly named) 13:28:56 tzviya: do we want to mention archiving in this section? 13:29:15 ... we already have a section on archiving 13:30:00 q? 13:30:25 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbyE5AncXKb77fufax8cXjtZsFmpEjI_C_-nAuym6bA/edit?usp=sharing 13:30:49 luc: (asking for link to google doc) 13:31:18 ivan: I am wondering... 13:31:39 ... if I'm a user and I want to copy a publication from one place to another to back it up or give it to somebody 13:31:56 laudrain has joined #dpub 13:32:00 ... it is usually easier to do that if it's a single file rather than 200 files in a directory 13:32:04 tzviya: that's true 13:32:17 ... that's a simple use case 13:32:57 george: is that similar to saying a user wants to create their own private collection or library? 13:33:05 tzviya: can you clarify? 13:33:20 george: in print world, people fill their houses with bookshelves, now you just need a USB drive 13:33:40 ... they collect and purchase books they want access to, and it's not always available on the web 13:33:52 ... they want access always 13:34:11 dauwhe: I'd add that they want to keep the book if the publisher/distributer goes out of business 13:34:36 tzviya: users want to cultivate private collections 13:34:55 ivan: which is available regardless of online/offline status 13:35:01 NickRuffilo: this might not be relevant 13:35:09 ... what if content is taken down? 13:35:28 ivan: this is why you need archiving 13:35:29 q? 13:35:55 ivan: this is an archival use cases 13:35:58 see http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#use-cases---archival-interest 13:36:11 tzviya: going back to 2.1.6 13:36:33 laudrain: could we mention that the user wants ownership of the product? 13:37:03 ... everlasting ownership 13:37:11 tzviya: I would prefer not to get into sales models 13:37:19 ... it's more a business issue than a technical issue 13:37:34 "ever lasting ownership" is likely done through archival also...or really awesome offline features :) 13:37:46 ... if we start talking about who owns a publication, then nobody wants to touch this stuff 13:37:58 ... going back to 2.1.6, if people want to review this 13:38:16 q? 13:38:20 ... have we left anything out? 13:38:32 clapierre: what about customizable PWPs? 13:38:48 tzviya: is that related to the single unit use case? 13:38:58 q+ 13:39:04 clapierre: I was just thinking about physical books, bookplates, personalization 13:39:19 ivan: this is not related to single unit 13:39:36 ack bjd 13:39:38 HeatherF: we have the glint of a use case in section 10, a11y 13:40:01 bjdmeest: what about verifyability? 13:40:15 q+ 13:40:21 ... is the publication you recieved the same as the one the publisher distributed 13:40:33 ivan: I could could checksum each resource in a directory, and document that 13:40:36 or completeness 13:40:51 ... so it's not dependent on having a single object 13:41:10 ... it's probably more efficient to do as single unit 13:41:21 q+ 13:41:23 tzviya: arguments for efficieny make sense 13:41:36 NickRuffilo: but what do you checksum? 13:42:13 ack he 13:42:46 HeatherF: it's interesting to have checksumming as an option, but I'm not sure it should be a requirement 13:43:01 ... we have shared references, etc. 13:43:11 ... and we also have use cases around people actually altering documents 13:43:22 NickRuffilo: checksumming is usually used in application distribution 13:43:53 ack cl 13:43:56 tzviya: we're getting way into the weeds 13:44:14 clapierre: my point was that you'd want to do it to the whole file 13:44:29 ivan: I did add one item to the use cases, with some conditionals 13:44:34 tzviya: that looks good 13:44:50 q? 13:44:55 q? 13:44:56 darobin has joined #dpub 13:45:11 tzviya: anything to add to the section? perhaps time to move on to 2.1.8 13:45:19 tzviya: reads 2.1.8 13:45:50 george: in time-based media, time controls everything 13:46:04 ... I need to be able to navigate through time-based material, based on semantics 13:46:08 ... like headings 13:46:23 ... I need to navigate forward and backwards in time 13:46:44 ... hopefully in a meaningful way, like fast forward, fast backward 13:46:50 ... you hear little snippets 13:46:57 ... this is something daisy players do 13:47:14 ... one requirement is ability to move quickly backward and forward in time 13:47:26 ... also need to do flexibly, increasing speed as you move 13:47:32 ... just like with a TIVO 13:47:47 ... we already have text and syncronization here 13:48:00 ... it would be good to vary the amount of text that's highlighted 13:48:56 ... variable granularity 13:49:09 (missed some minuting due to Jehovah's Witnesses at the door) 13:49:19 Avneesh: need to navigate while offline 13:49:34 ... so the media needs to be downloaded already 13:49:47 ... need pause and resume 13:50:15 ... needs to resume playback on a different device at the correct time 13:50:43 ... the pwp should be able to provide sync media experience without need to connect online 13:51:09 (use case writing happening in document) 13:51:28 tzviya: let's flesh out these use cases 13:51:41 ... user needs to navigate through semantically-tagged headings 13:51:49 ... and navigating through timed text 13:51:51 q? 13:52:24 george: the essence is that the text-based structure of the document is used in the multimedia setting 13:53:25 ... must be able to navigate the media using the text 13:53:30 ... an example: 13:53:42 ... act/scene or chapter/section 13:54:07 ... like a screenplay behind a movie, you can navigate via the screen play to get to parts of the movie 13:54:31 tzviya: you mentioned fast forward/fast backward 13:54:43 george: it's called scrubbing 13:55:20 ... you hear the squeaking of voices as it's moving forward, comes from the time tapes were dragged quickly past the head 13:55:38 NickRuffilo: you could say "think playing a tape on fast forward" 13:55:45 ivan: are we done here? 13:55:55 ... I'm looking at the doc from a higher level 13:56:06 ... I was wondering whether this use case is in the right place 13:56:16 ivan: [ expletive deleted ] 13:56:30 ... we are collecting use cases/features that are fundamental to the pwp 13:56:36 ... and the reasons why we need this work 13:56:45 ... if we only had web pages, and that's all we needed 13:56:54 ... then this use case could fit into this picture 13:57:10 ... we haven't really discussed the structure of the rest of the document 13:57:20 tzviya: maybe we move this one to the a11y section 13:57:33 george: this is an audio book requirement 13:57:47 ... whether they have text or not, should be able to live here 13:58:06 ivan: we have a more general use case that should be listed here 13:58:25 ... the notion of publication we are working with must include or enable audio books or audio publications 13:58:30 tzviya: that's a good point 13:58:34 ivan: it's not in the text yet 13:58:43 tzviya: let's create a section about audio books 13:58:47 picture books? 13:58:53 ivan: we'll have to have a separate section 13:59:45 ivan: (typed something) 14:00:51 ... now we need a description and some use cases 14:01:15 tzviya: and there was vook (video book) 14:01:15 I like the new text in 2.1.9, but what should happen now to 2.1.8? A whole new section? Move to Accessibility? Other? 14:01:20 Avneesh: it's a huge market 14:01:57 george: this is a good use case for portability 14:02:14 ... I want to be able to hear my book 14:02:15 tmichel has joined #dpub 14:03:02 Avneesh: you download audio book via high-speed connection at home, then use in low-connection-speed environments 14:03:29 q+ 14:03:40 George: in 2.8, even though we're thinking of audio book as complete, there will be items in books where there are chunks of video or audio 14:03:50 ... that are dispersed through the document 14:04:13 ... you have videos or animations that are time-based that need to be supported 14:04:27 tzviya: is there a volunteer for a new scribe? 14:04:34 I'm scribing in the HTML 14:05:05 ack h 14:05:11 scribenick: laudrain 14:05:12 scribenick: Luc 14:05:42 scribenick: laudrain 14:06:14 ivan: should keep 2.1.8 where it is 14:07:02 Avneesh: alternate media should also been always available 14:08:15 Ivan adds notes to section 2.1.9 14:09:05 Tziya: lot of details in 2.1.8 14:09:41 Avneesh: A11Y can be used as a strong arguement for PWP 14:10:58 Tzviya: 2.1.9 seems to be complete 14:11:18 multi-modal reading :) 14:11:43 eyes-free reading? 14:13:14 Tzviya: time to 1 o’clock 14:13:44 Move to section 2.2.3 14:14:28 Tzviya: from a RS perspective 14:15:08 Tzviya duplicate from 2.2.1? no brek to duplicate : delete 14:15:21 New 2.2.3 14:16:15 Ivan: notes on implementation optimization 14:19:19 Notes on essential and non essential resources 14:19:41 Tzviya : also on extended descriptions 14:20:23 Ivan: datasets for scholarly publications 14:23:32 bkardell_ has joined #dpub 14:23:40 Ivan: do we have the whole thing in section 2? 14:24:57 Ivan: shower idea : unique id for the collection, but the web doesn’t have this. 14:25:05 See 2.1.6 14:26:05 Tzviya: are there locator usecases in this doc 14:26:38 Heather: in distribution, offline pub, in requirements sections 14:27:10 Tzviya: the TF had several specific use cases. Where are htey? 14:27:22 s/htey/they/ 14:28:17 Tzviya: anything missing? 14:28:36 Tzviya: short break, 15 mn 14:29:46 UCR doc on github has been updated with this morning's edits: see http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/ 14:31:40 rdeltour_ has joined #dpub 14:36:03 Where is the list? 14:44:14 rdeltour has joined #dpub 14:45:52 scribenick: nickruffilo 14:49:28 Tzviya: "Github has been updated - so we can review the actual repository. We have a use-case there about identifiers..." 14:49:48 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#fundamental-features-of-a-pwp 14:49:52 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbyE5AncXKb77fufax8cXjtZsFmpEjI_C_-nAuym6bA/edit# 14:50:06 Tzviya: "Above are links to the github and google doc which we are dicsussing the use-cases." 14:50:34 q+ 14:50:44 ack h 14:50:50 ...: "Section 2 - fundamental features of PWP. " 14:51:16 heather: "Earlier dave posted a list of use-cases from epub. Since I don't understand all the things that are here, did we miss anything that are essential?" 14:51:17 cmaden2 has joined #dpub 14:52:10 q+ 14:52:25 ack iv 14:52:32 Dave: "We talked about personalization as an accessibility issue, but it's a usability issue for everyone - changing font size for example. Browsers typically make this harder. Browsers do not have an easy way to change font, which is a universal ebook experience. It's about personal preference. There's the whole remembering where you are thing. If I've scrolled halfway down a web page, if 14:52:32 I open it later, I don't return to where I left off - unless someone has done a huge amount of work. It's expected in long-form reading." 14:53:09 Ivan: "The first one is listed later - I think I agree that this should be moved up to the fundamental features. It's in 10.1 "" 14:53:47 ...: "The second one may not be part of the document, so it's a new item. The problem, Dave, is that no good deed goes unpunished. We have the GoogleDoc - so we should try to put both of them in so that later heather can put it into the main documnet. " 14:53:58 Dave: "I'll try to put in something about remembering where you are in the google doc." 14:54:49 George: "The last place to read seems to be a particular type of bookmark." 14:55:37 tzviya: "the bookmark seems to be added by a reader. Whereas the last-place-read is automatic and done by the browser" 14:56:11 GeorgE: "Do we want to talk about educational requirements - analytics - such as time spent read?" 14:56:55 q+ 14:57:07 Nick: "I think the mechanisms we have will allow someone to write the stats on top of it - but having it inherant in the document seems a bit much." 14:57:20 q- 14:57:35 Tzviya: "If we start getting into things like analytics, we start getting into an area that is controversial. Controversy can be OK but doesn't seem necessary here." 14:57:39 bookmarks and reading state can be stored as annotations fwiw 14:58:33 Dave: "We might have to touch things from the other side - W3C sections are now required to ahve sections on security and privacy - so we may need some privacy statement somewhere. It is probably a fairly fundamental use-case for a reader - to be able to read online without someone knowing what the user is doing." 14:59:18 Ivan: "I'm not sure that's part of the fundamental thing, as it's part of the web in general. Tzviya, I think we are again, thinking the same thing. The next item I wrote..." 14:59:45 q? 14:59:53 Ivan: "Where is what Dave did?" 15:00:03 Dave: "I'm going to try to type in my text editor - then paste in." 15:01:43 Tzviya: "We have a use-case of a dyslexic student who wants to customize the experience. A user who is reading in sunlight and wants to invert the colors - and a user who is reading a programming book and wants fixed-width." 15:01:46 q+ 15:01:50 Nick: "Needing night-mode is good." 15:02:06 Luc 15:02:41 acl l 15:02:55 Luc: "The special rendering could be prepared by the PWP producer - in that they could embed specific stylesheets or functions for different rendering strategies that could be distributed with the content. The use case would be load a specific stylesheet for specific people/use cases." 15:03:17 George: "Are these themes? A collection of stylesheet that adjust the presentation?" 15:03:23 ack l 15:04:13 Ivan: "I wrote that it should be either a list of options, or user defined properties." 15:04:47 Ivan: "An interactive dialogue." 15:05:16 q? 15:06:18 Luc: "If the author of the PWP has created things so the syllabic colors are different - but the question becomes - how do we make the user aware." 15:06:35 Tzviya: "Anything else on the overview for section 2 - for the fundamental features of PWP." 15:06:46 Ivan: "Lets still wait for Dave's input, but we need to go through section 3." 15:06:57 George: "Do we have the concept of multiple renditions here?" 15:07:12 ...: "One version that uses math as an image VS Math as MathML?" 15:07:30 Ivan: "We're getting into the weeds here. Eventually we'll have to face that, but... I don't know." 15:07:55 Tzviya: "If you look at the google doc, I pasted section 13 in. We need to go through this and see what we've already covered. " 15:08:45 ...: "I think the first part is covered under the essential part." 15:08:53 Ivan: "Kill it with the delete button" 15:08:55 Heather: "AHAHHAHA" 15:09:36 Tzviya: "Differentiation between a format independent and format dependent locator." 15:10:41 Ivan: "These both are - on the whole - locator mechanisms. Those are the use-cases coming from them. We'll have to have a section on that, but not fundamental." 15:10:49 Tzviya: "I'm going to skip the ones on identifiers." 15:12:23 Tzviya: "Possibility to follow the provenance chain for archiving." 15:12:52 http://pav-ontology.github.io/pav/ 15:13:21 Nick: "So this is like a changelog - but a list of authors/creators who have touched the document and possibly some notes - stored in metadata." 15:13:30 Tzviya: " Locators, locators, locators for all!" 15:14:12 q+ 15:14:20 Tzviya: "People would want to be able to update a publication when online or offline. Such as a publisher issuing a version - or an annotation. " 15:14:33 Heather: "Would this also be a publication with static or updated information?" 15:15:01 Tzviya: "Could be an accessibility provider adding an accessibility layer on it. " 15:15:20 George: "Could be that you travel to a resource that no longer exists in a newer version." 15:16:02 q+ 15:16:05 Tzviya: "I'm not sure who came up with this - but if it is just taht updating information is necessary - and it needs to go to both online and offline editions. Then that is a fundamental use-case. " 15:16:10 q- 15:17:20 I can scribe 15:17:38 ack lau 15:17:43 scribenick: baldurbjarnason 15:18:27 Luc: “You could for example let the reader know that a phone number for a specific restaurant has changed.” 15:18:47 Luc: “Factual data could be updated dynamically.” 15:19:17 Tzviya: “This is a differentation between versioning and revision. Major versus minor updates.” 15:20:08 Tzviya: “Nick was probably alluding to the possibility that the user might not want updates. Avoiding situations like in the past where users have been forced to accept updates." 15:20:35 Ivan: “Can we mark up those we should put in section 2” 15:21:06 Tzviya: Refers to the write control requirement 15:21:25 Tzviya: Is the write control requirement DRM? 15:21:44 Tzviya: Is this a part of the fundamental nature of PWP? 15:22:28 ?: PWP can’t rely on internet connection and serverside programming to control read/write. 15:22:46 ?: You log into web pages, you don’t log into your book 15:22:47 s/?/Avneesh/ 15:23:40 Tzviya: Refers to requirment on queryable manifest 15:24:25 Tzviya: Refers to requirement on javascript and processing engines. 15:24:35 Ivan: we may remove this in the future. 15:25:00 Tzviya: References to outside resources. 15:25:32 Ivan: points out that this is already a part of the “has to support web platform features” 15:26:14 Tzviya: packaging for javascript? 15:26:48 Tzviya: Content in package should be fully annotatable. 15:27:02 Ivan: We already have some references to annotation. 15:27:40 Ivan: A lot of these are just use cases for the first requirement (must support Open Web Platform). 15:28:04 they could be a resource that's contained within the PWP package, or one that you get separately as perhaps an "add-on" 15:28:10 Call-in User_3: This may be a part of a separate PWP product. 15:28:17 Alice in Wonderland + "The Annotated [Alice]" 15:28:20 Tzviya: This is covered by the annotation spec. 15:28:47 Tzviya: We get annotation for free if we fully support the open web platform. 15:29:18 Call-in User_3: Big for accessibility if we want to add additional information. 15:29:40 s/Call-in User_3/George 15:29:44 Tzviya: What we actually need to say is that the package is annotatable and that annotations can be a part of the package. 15:29:52 George: And be discoverable. 15:31:01 Tzviya: There needs to be metadata on package components. 15:31:18 Ivan: Leave it there for now but not a fundamental thing. 15:31:34 Tzviya: We have covered manifest with metadata. 15:31:56 Tzviya: Updating requirement. 15:32:04 Ivan: Points out that we’re in the weeds. 15:32:42 Tzviya: Refers to the intact and complete collection requirement. 15:33:02 Nobody knows who wrotes that req 15:33:31 Heather: thinks that we have something about that already 15:33:51 Tzviya: Delete? 15:33:54 Ivan: Yes. 15:34:14