12:58:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sdw
12:58:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-irc
12:58:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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12:58:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
12:58:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
12:58:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:58:26 <trackbot> Date: 06 July 2016
12:58:33 <aharth> present+ aharth
12:59:01 <kerry> present+ kerry
12:59:26 <jtandy> present+ jtandy
12:59:30 <ByronCinNZ> ByronCinNZ has joined #sdw
12:59:36 <kerry> chair: Kerry
13:00:15 <ahaller2> password: sdw
13:00:24 <ByronCinNZ> present+
13:00:38 <kerry> s/password: sdw//
13:01:02 <frans> frans has joined #sdw
13:01:11 <ChrisLittle> ChrisLittle has joined #Sdw
13:01:21 <billroberts> present+ billroberts
13:01:31 <billroberts> ...though struggling to get webex going at the moment
13:01:32 <DanhLePhuoc> DanhLePhuoc has joined #sdw
13:01:35 <phila> scribe: phila
13:01:37 <kerry> scribe: phila
13:01:40 <phila> scribeNick: phila
13:01:43 <phila> present+ phila
13:01:50 <Linda> present+ Linda
13:01:52 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
13:02:53 <roba> present+ roba
13:02:58 <ChrisLittle> Present+ ChrisLittle
13:03:01 <kerry> regrets: rachel, lars, simoncox
13:03:10 <kerry> regrets+ ed
13:03:10 <ahaller2> present+ ahaller2
13:03:17 <frans> present+ frans
13:03:41 <kerry> topic: approve minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-sdw-minutes.html
13:03:48 <kerry> +1
13:03:48 <ChrisLittle> +1
13:03:53 <Linda> +1
13:03:53 <ByronCinNZ> +1
13:03:55 <roba> +1
13:03:56 <phila> +0 (not present
13:03:56 <billroberts> 0 (sorry missed the last one)
13:04:00 <jtandy> +1
13:04:18 <phila> RESOLUTION: Last weekd' minutes accepted
13:04:36 <phila> s/weekd'/week's/
13:04:38 <kerry> topic: patent call https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
13:05:44 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #sdw
13:05:49 <phila> kerry: Yes, the minutes were from 2 weeks agao, i.e. the previous plenary meeting
13:05:52 <kerry> topic: FPWD for time ontology in owl
13:06:00 <jtandy> s/agao/ago/
13:06:18 <phila> -> w3c.github.io/sdw/time/ OWL TIme Ontology Editors' Draft
13:06:32 <phila> kerry: We talked about this 2 weeks ago and the action items have been done
13:06:41 <ahaller2> s/TIme/Time
13:06:42 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sdw
13:06:50 <phila> kerry: Andrea Perego asked for some references to be fixed, which have been done
13:06:56 <MattPerry> present+ MattPerry
13:07:02 <phila> kerry: I know Simon is ready to go ahead.
13:07:26 <phila> ChrisLittle: The underlying ontology hasn't changed much. Some constraints have been removed.
13:07:40 <phila> ... I added some explanatory text about the diff between clocks and calendars.
13:08:08 <phila> ChrisLittle: I'm happy with it as a FPWD. WE have some Notes and Issues but they seem right to me.
13:08:31 <phila> chair: kerry
13:08:47 <phila> ahaller2: We did some changes in SSN last week and updated it on Protege
13:08:53 <phila> kerry: So nothing to do with Time.
13:09:02 <phila> kerry: Any other questions and clarifications needed?
13:09:18 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
13:10:18 <phila> PROPOSED: That the Editors' Draft of the OWL Time Ontology at w3c.github.io/sdw/time/ be published as a W3C FPWD and OGC Discussion Paper
13:10:25 <ChrisLittle> +1 to feed
13:10:31 <jtandy> +1
13:10:40 <roba> +1
13:10:41 <frans> +1
13:10:41 <AndreaPerego> +1
13:10:43 <Linda> +1
13:10:44 <MattPerry> +1
13:10:45 <DanhLePhuoc> +§
13:10:45 <billroberts> +1
13:10:48 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
13:10:48 <kerry> +1
13:10:52 <jtandy> s/feed/fpwd/
13:11:15 <ahaller2> +1
13:11:20 <aharth> +1 (still wondering why DAML-S/OWL-S in Section 6.7 is still relevant in 2016)
13:11:20 <phila> RESOLUTION: That the Editors' Draft of the OWL Time Ontology at w3c.github.io/sdw/time/ be published as a W3C FPWD and OGC Discussion Paper
13:11:28 <frans> congratulations! Well done Time Team!
13:11:33 <phila> PROPOSED: Vote of thanks to Simon and Chris
13:11:37 <jtandy> well done Simon (& Chris)
13:11:40 <Linda> +1
13:11:45 <frans> +1
13:11:51 <phila> RESOLUTION: Vote of thanks to Simon and Chris
13:11:51 <AndreaPerego> +1
13:11:56 <kerry> +1
13:12:02 <billroberts> +1
13:12:05 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
13:12:22 <phila> kerry: Did you notice that comment from aharth?
13:12:46 <phila> ChrisLittle: Yes, I'll let Simon take that one. Simon was keen to maintain backwards compatibility.
13:12:54 <phila> ... We might end up removing that section
13:13:04 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:13:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-minutes.html phila
13:13:25 <phila> Topic: Best Practice Document
13:13:31 <kerry> topic: Progress on BP
13:13:36 <phila> kerry: I think Linda was proposing to do this?
13:14:26 <phila> Linda: Not much progress recently as we have all been very busy with otehr stuff but as of this week we have more time available
13:14:48 <phila> Linda: We are taking another look at DWBP
13:14:57 <jtandy> s/otehr/other/\
13:15:06 <phila> phila: Notes that my task afer this call is to prepare the DWBP for Candidate Rec
13:15:16 <ahaller2> s/afer/after
13:15:19 <phila> Linda: We want to work on the narrative and work on the examples
13:15:45 <phila> Linda: There has been some discussion on the mailing list. I have trouble following those discussions. Sometimes they are very long.
13:16:02 <phila> ... The way that people formulate their mails can be confusing.
13:16:14 <phila> ... For me personally, the list is more of a problem than a help.
13:16:32 <phila> kerry: So how can we work differently?
13:16:47 <phila> Linda: Am I the only one with this problem?
13:16:50 <phila> kerry: I;m sure not.
13:16:55 <jtandy> +1 to suggest that folks try to summarise discussions?
13:16:57 <phila> q+
13:17:10 <AndreaPerego> +1 to Jeremy
13:17:16 <jtandy> (I meant q+ ...)
13:17:17 <phila> kerry: If you don't follow them closely, it's easy to lose track of the conversation
13:17:18 <billroberts> I also don't always have time to keep up wiht the mailing list discussions
13:17:23 <kerry> q?
13:17:25 <phila> ack me
13:17:26 <jtandy> q+ to suggest that folks try to summarise discussions?
13:17:27 <kerry> ack phila
13:17:27 <ahaller2> s/I;m/I'm
13:17:57 <kerry> q?
13:18:34 <kerry> ack jtandy
13:18:34 <Zakim> jtandy, you wanted to suggest that folks try to summarise discussions?
13:18:49 <phila> phila: Suggests browsing the archive rather than using e-mail client. Threaded view can be arranged I think if needs be.
13:19:21 <phila> jtandy: Some of the e-mail threads are short and concise. Others are very long and you have to read a lot to find out what's going on.
13:19:50 <kerry> q+
13:19:56 <phila> ... You often find that there is a small number of protagonists. It would be helpful for them to summarise. That helps everyone, notably the editors who have to follow it.
13:19:58 <frans> Perhaps topic starters could be moderators and summarize etc.?
13:20:16 <kerry> ack kerry
13:20:17 <phila> jtandy: It's a bit more work but it makes a big difference.
13:20:39 <phila> kerry: I would add, if they're substantive, they should be more persistent, maybe on the wiki
13:21:09 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #sdw
13:21:32 <kerry> q?
13:22:01 <phila> kerry: Thanks Linda
13:22:13 <phila> jtandy: I wanted to add to Linda's update.
13:22:40 <phila> jtandy: When I go through the DWBP, I observe that many of the BPs that we were trying to write down oursleves are already represneted in some form in that doc.
13:22:55 <Nicky> Nicky has joined #sdw
13:23:12 <phila> ... I think we have a chance to restructure the BP doc a little by reaching back to DWBP more. Should make our doc easier to read and avoids duplication.
13:23:24 <Linda> q+
13:23:32 <phila> jtandy: It might appear dramatic, shortening the doc quite a lot, but we think it's as valuable as before but shorter.
13:23:39 <phila> q+ to talk about subsetting
13:24:00 <phila> kerry: That sounds sensible
13:24:23 <phila> jtandy: Now that Linda and I have got a whole load of other work done, I can get to this. 50% of my time on SDW in July
13:24:41 <phila> q?
13:24:45 <phila> ack l
13:25:03 <phila> Linda: I also have around 50% of my time for this in July.
13:25:32 <kerry> +1 i like that idea linda!
13:25:37 <jtandy> +1
13:25:38 <phila> Linda: More concretely, I think it would make sense to restructure it to put in the same order as DWBP, so that ours extends theirs. I'm starting to see it in my head
13:25:39 <AndreaPerego> +1
13:25:39 <Nicky> present+ nicky
13:25:41 <phila> ack me
13:25:41 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about subsetting
13:25:48 <kerry> ack phila
13:25:55 <ByronCinNZ> +1 for Linda
13:27:01 <BartvanLeeuwen> present+ BartvanLeeuwen
13:27:19 <jtandy> q+
13:27:25 <kerry> q?
13:27:33 <kerry> ack jtandy
13:27:38 <phila> phila: Gives update on DWBP status. Document now locked for CR.
13:28:14 <phila> jtandy: There are some examples where we can say more specific things as we're specially spatial. There's a set of BPs around establishing links between things that rean't in DWBP that we'll have to add.
13:28:41 <phila> jtandy: As we write our examples, you'll see us referring to DWBP, specialisations of those, and some new BPs that are particular to spatial
13:28:45 <kerry> q?
13:28:45 <phila> phila: Perfect, thank you
13:29:01 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:29:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-minutes.html phila
13:29:32 <kerry> topic: BP narrative: navigating one's way among multiple representations (see https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Conneg)
13:29:52 <phila> kerry: You might have seen roba's thread on this
13:30:10 <phila> roba: I'll try and summarise.
13:30:57 <phila> roba: There are a number of cases emerging that seem to boil down to a pattern that hasn't been identified in DWBP specifically, that differnet sets about the same world object aren't related.
13:31:25 <phila> ... The coastline of Europe, for example, has multiple properties of the same object.
13:31:55 <phila> ... The synatx for the Lined Data API offers named entities. This is similar to conneg.
13:32:03 <phila> ... Sounds related to features anda geometries
13:32:26 <phila> ... Do the examples that exist help us identify best practice? I think so, but there are implementation challenges.
13:32:37 <phila> ... jtandy Talked about profiles
13:32:41 <phila> q+ to talk about profiles
13:32:45 <frans> what is the e-mail thread on this subject?
13:33:09 <aharth> fwiw: the GADM data exposes geometries using content negotation, example linked from the home page at http://gadm.geovocab.org/
13:33:09 <phila> roba: I believe we do need ot get to a consensus what the BP is on this.
13:33:23 <phila> roba: I don't think we've talked about this.
13:33:41 <phila> ... And there was another use case coming from Frans that isn't quite the same is getting at the same idea.
13:33:43 <jtandy> q+
13:33:52 <phila> ack me
13:33:52 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about profiles
13:34:05 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2016/11/sdsvoc/ SDSVoc
13:34:40 <kerry> this is the email thread: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2016Jul/0025.html
13:35:14 <kerry> q?
13:35:45 <kerry> ack jtandy
13:35:48 <phila> phila: Talks about SDSVoc and the profiles aspect
13:35:59 <phila> jtandy: I'll try and get that in my diary.
13:36:41 <frans> q+
13:36:42 <Linda> q+
13:36:44 <phila> jtandy: When I listen to the problem Rob's describing, it's a pattern we see a lot. One real world object but lots of ways of describing it. Do others recognise this as a challenge?
13:36:48 <ByronCinNZ> +1
13:36:55 <phila> ack f
13:36:55 <billroberts> yes - it's a challenge
13:37:05 <frans> yes, it is a challenge
13:37:21 <kerry> ack linda
13:37:29 <billroberts> q+
13:37:30 <phila> Linda: We see it as a challenge too. it came up in the Geonovum test bed.
13:37:39 <phila> ... There are many aspects that you want to negotiate on.
13:37:46 <AndreaPerego> +1 also from me.
13:38:04 <phila> ack b
13:38:05 <kerry> ack billroberts
13:38:24 <frans> No one could hear me?
13:38:26 <phila> billroberts: This is a practical problem that we come across. Differnet geometries/resolutions, as well as serialisations.
13:38:51 <phila> billroberts: We can do it in RDF with data models that support it.
13:39:03 <phila> ... You can choose the representation that you want.
13:39:31 <phila> ... You also want things that chage over time. The representatiion as it is now vs what it was a year ago.
13:39:38 <phila> ... And then there's the open world assumption
13:39:49 <frans> I wanted to say that there is a difference between different data about a thing within a single data set and between different data sets. In the latter case the real world thing has multiple URIs
13:40:04 <phila> billroberts:  So we have a bunch of mechanisms. Lots of practices, but which is best? I don't know.
13:40:22 <kerry> q?
13:40:28 <phila> billroberts: I don't think there's going tyo be a single right answer.
13:40:35 <phila> kerry: try again frans
13:40:44 <phila> [Frans talks to his local mute button]
13:40:46 <frans> Sorry
13:40:57 <frans> I have just typed the things I wanted to say
13:41:08 <frans> at 15:39:48
13:41:15 <ahaller2> s/tyo/to
13:41:23 <kerry> q?
13:41:25 <jtandy> q+
13:41:45 <kerry> ack jtandy
13:41:50 <AndreaPerego> Just for our records, see this IETF RFC proposal from Lars (Svensson): "Negotiating Schemas in HTTP", http://files.dnb.de/svensson/I-D-accept-schema.txt
13:41:59 <phila> jtandy: Now that we have validated that this is an issue that people see in different places, we can go on to talk about what the BP is.
13:42:23 <phila> ... This is distinct from the technical implentation. Rob talked about named views in LinkedData API
13:42:35 <AndreaPerego> s/representatiion/representation/
13:42:54 <phila> ... Dret's Draft talks about different representations in JSON-LD, each one can declare which data model it uses.
13:43:23 <phila> jtandy: So we can try and identify a number of options at the November workshop.
13:43:50 <phila> jtandy: When I think aboiut the definition of a Feature, a feature type can only be of one type.
13:44:32 <AndreaPerego> s/aboiut/about/
13:44:49 <phila> roba: I think the distinction between a real world object and one or models of it... is a real one. I don't think we're fixed on only one feature type.
13:45:08 <phila> ... I only mention LinkedData API as a ref, not necessarily saying it's the best way to go.
13:45:32 <phila> roba: I'm not sure that there's a specially spatial aspect.
13:45:48 <phila> ... The general case is different info models for differnet purposes.
13:45:52 <jtandy> q=
13:45:57 <jtandy> q+
13:46:05 <jtandy> ack jtandy
13:46:37 <phila> ChrisLittle: +1 to Rob. Different data models are part of the represnetation. That suggests different search mechanisms might be more appropriate.
13:46:56 <phila> ... For example, you might see a 2D map but the underlying model might be a 3D point cloud but they're of the smae thing.
13:47:06 <kerry> q?
13:47:06 <frans> s/represnetation/representation
13:47:19 <jtandy> s/smae/same/
13:48:13 <ahaller2> +1 I think it is a general issue, not a spatial only
13:49:19 <kerry> q?
13:50:14 <phila> phila: Highlights specially spatial aspect of things like resolution which won't come up in the workshop without SDW people.
13:50:17 <AndreaPerego> +1 to Phil.
13:50:17 <phila> Topic: Actions
13:50:55 <kerry> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/overdue
13:51:00 <phila> action-25?
13:51:00 <trackbot> action-25 -- Jeremy Tandy to Help with glossary -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN
13:51:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/25
13:51:18 <phila> kerry: The glossary exists. Anything specific to be done? Can we close it?
13:51:42 <phila> jtandy: I think something that came out was related to use of the terms like Coverage that are already in the OGC glossary.
13:51:56 <phila> kerry: OK, I'll leave it open for now.
13:52:12 <phila> action-85?
13:52:12 <trackbot> action-85 -- Bart van Leeuwen to Write up a bp around properties in wfs to link a feature to its linked data version -- due 2015-11-03 -- OPEN
13:52:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/85
13:52:14 <kerry> action-85?
13:52:14 <trackbot> action-85 -- Bart van Leeuwen to Write up a bp around properties in wfs to link a feature to its linked data version -- due 2015-11-03 -- OPEN
13:52:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/85
13:53:17 <phila> BartvanLeeuwen: My comment - we have a demo near ready. Nicky's back from holiday today and we're working on it now. We should have something in 2 weeks' time.
13:53:23 <phila> kerry: Should we schedule time in 2 weeks?
13:53:42 <phila> BartvanLeeuwen: Tha should work.
13:53:53 <phila> kerry: That's a demo linking a WFS?
13:53:56 <phila> BartvanLeeuwen: Yep.
13:54:05 <phila> action-101?
13:54:05 <trackbot> action-101 -- Bill Roberts to Compile a list of geospatial vocabularies in rdf -- due 2015-11-25 -- OPEN
13:54:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/101
13:54:08 <kerry> action-101 ?
13:54:08 <trackbot> action-101 -- Bill Roberts to Compile a list of geospatial vocabularies in rdf -- due 2015-11-25 -- OPEN
13:54:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/101
13:54:30 <phila> kerry: I'm pretty sure that's done.
13:54:39 <phila> billroberts: I made a first pass and people contributed.
13:55:03 <phila> ... I could still trace back through the mails and try and do something with it. I can't remember what we wanted it for.
13:55:15 <phila> jtandy: We were trying to tell people what the choices were.
13:55:22 <phila> kerry: Is there more to be done?
13:55:41 <phila> jtandy: I think we can close this. if we need more, we'll create it again.
13:55:49 <Linda> +1
13:56:01 <phila> billroberts: There is more info associated with that. But I think it might be difficult to make a BP from it.
13:56:08 <phila> q+ to talk about Frans' work?
13:56:21 <roba> q+
13:56:33 <kerry> ack phila
13:56:33 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about Frans' work?
13:56:37 <phila> jtandy: The trick becomes how you would choose which vocab to use and providing hte infio to make that choice
13:57:01 <kerry> q?
13:57:05 <AndreaPerego> s/hte infio/the info/
13:57:14 <phila> phila: isn't that what Frans et al are working on?
13:57:15 <kerry> ack roba
13:58:01 <phila> roba: I think we have a situation where at the level of the individual implementation we'll be here forever. Think of measures vocab - there are many to choose from.
13:58:08 <Linda> q+ to suggest if we close action-101, we can close action-103 as well
13:58:27 <phila> roba: It's about choosing a vocab that your community of interest is already using.
13:58:46 <jtandy> [agree with Rob]
13:58:47 <phila> q+ to talk about https://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
13:58:49 <kerry> close action-101
13:58:49 <trackbot> Closed action-101.
13:58:57 <phila> ack Linda
13:58:57 <Zakim> Linda, you wanted to suggest if we close action-101, we can close action-103 as well
13:59:01 <kerry> ack linda?
13:59:03 <jtandy> +1
13:59:08 <phila> close action-103
13:59:08 <trackbot> Closed action-103.
13:59:17 <phila> ack me
13:59:17 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about https://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
13:59:18 <phila> https://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
13:59:49 <phila> kerry: I'm going to close the meeting there.
14:00:08 <phila> kerry: Thanks everyone. And congrats on another publication.
14:00:09 <AndreaPerego> Bye bye
14:00:09 <BartvanLeeuwen> thx bye
14:00:14 <billroberts> thanks, bye
14:00:17 <kerry> bye!
14:00:19 <frans> bye
14:00:25 <roba> bye
14:00:28 <roba> \quit
14:00:30 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:00:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-minutes.html phila
14:01:24 <Nicky> Nicky has left #sdw
16:09:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sdw