15:03:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #alreq
15:03:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/28-alreq-irc
15:03:13 <mostafa> present+
15:03:15 <Shervin> present+
15:03:59 <Shervin> Shervin has changed the topic to: ALReq Weekly Meeting, 28 June 2016: Agenda and Details
15:04:09 <mostafa> ScribeNick: mostafa
15:04:19 <Shervin> Chair: Shervin
15:04:30 <najib> present+
15:05:15 <Shervin> agenda+ Reviewing “2.3 direction” draft[2]. Mostafa will have an initial
15:05:32 <Shervin> agenda+ Discussing drafting start of the justification section
15:05:43 <Shervin> agenda+ Status review of action items
15:05:55 <Shervin> agenda+ Review of Github issues [4] and pull requests
15:06:53 <najib> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/wiki/Draft-for-%E2%80%9C2.3-Direction%E2%80%9D
15:07:03 <mostafa> Shervin: In the wiki page for the “2.3 direction’ draft I’m seeing this draft.
15:09:02 <mostafa> Mostafa: I didn’t go into fine details and edge cases in this draft.
15:11:15 <mostafa> … It’s just a big picture overview of how the Arabic text is rendered.
15:14:19 <Shervin> http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/bidi.jsp?a=%DA%A9%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87+word&p=Auto
15:14:31 <mostafa> Richard: The image for the logical/visual order can be a little confusing.
15:15:06 <mostafa> … An arrow could help.
15:15:22 <mostafa> Shervin: Another option is to add position numbers.
15:17:51 <najib> s/Heh/Teh/
15:18:11 <najib> s/U+0647/U+0629/
15:21:25 <mostafa> Richard: We can use “display order” instead of “visual order” to make it more clear.
15:21:58 <mostafa> Shervin: We can also use something like “memory order” for “logical order”.
15:22:14 <mostafa> … Or “reordered string” instead of “visual order”.
15:24:12 <r12a> q+
15:28:11 <Shervin> ack r12a
15:30:17 <mostafa> … So, do you want me to merge this PR?
15:31:14 <mostafa> Mostafa: No, I have to update this using your feedbacks.
15:31:23 <mostafa> http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jep/3336451.0013.105?rgn=main;view=fulltext
15:31:53 <mostafa> Shervin: On the justification, there are two schools of thought.
15:32:21 <mostafa> … One is discussed in the article “Justify Just or Just Jusify”.
15:32:41 <mostafa> … The other is writen about by Thomas Milo.
15:34:52 <mostafa> Richard: Azzedine’s approach is based on adding more kashida.
15:35:07 <mostafa> … Tom’s approach also uses extra spaces between words and inside words.
15:35:55 <mostafa> Shervin: In reality there should be a mix of kashida and inter-word spaces.
15:36:33 <mostafa> Najib: Kashida and inter-word spaces are the main justification mechanisms used in type-writers.
15:37:07 <mostafa> … Justification using ligatures is more complicated and not easy to achieve using mechanics.
15:38:13 <mostafa> Richard: In InDesign they do allow you to use ligatures and swash kaafs in the end of the words, which is not actually kashida.
15:38:41 <mostafa> … Tom’s application, Tasmeem, is used in InDesign.
15:39:06 <mostafa> … But he also thinks that you have to use more spaces than what Azzedine suggests.
15:39:54 <Shervin> q+
15:39:56 <mostafa> … In type-writers a tatweel is used, not a kashida. They are different.
15:40:54 <mostafa> … These are the tools used for streching the lines for justification.
15:41:09 <mostafa> … And there are the rules for each writing style and each tool.
15:41:39 <mostafa> Shervin: I agree that it’s not black or white.
15:42:41 <mostafa> … It’s also totally dependant on the environment.
15:42:56 <mostafa> … More complex environments can have, for example, longer kaaf.
15:43:10 <mostafa> q+
15:43:23 <Shervin> Shervin-
15:43:40 <Shervin> q-
15:43:52 <Shervin> ack mostafa
15:44:30 <mostafa> … Plain text environments are more limited and can probably only use tatweels and extra spaces.
15:44:44 <mostafa> … We just have to cover the nuances of using these models.
15:45:49 <mostafa> Mostafa: We can only cover all these tools and solutions, and mention that there are different approaches to mixing these tools. We don’t have to make a decision ourselve.s
15:45:57 <mostafa> Shervin: +1
15:46:46 <mostafa> Richard: At a later step, we can also cover how browsers implement Arabic justification.
15:47:23 <mostafa> … I suggest to use Tom Milo’s definitions for tatweel and kashida.
15:47:43 <mostafa> … When he says “tatweel”, he means the Unicode character.
15:48:40 <mostafa> … But when he says kashida he means extending the horizontal line of the letters.
15:49:36 <mostafa> Shervin: Behnam calls that elongation.
15:54:43 <mostafa> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/wiki/Arabic-numerals-%281st-Draft%29
15:55:20 <mostafa> … Moving on to Najib’s new text.
15:56:10 <mostafa> Najib: I want to cover different families of numbers, what are their origins, and some of the issues regarding the number families like fonts and keyboards.
15:57:00 <najib> Writing and reading numbers, bidi with numbers
15:58:23 <mostafa> Shervin: I suggest avoiding Arabic digits term for the U+0030—U+0039.
15:58:38 <mostafa> … It’s defined in the glossary, we can use that.
16:00:35 <mostafa> q+
16:01:48 <Shervin> ack mostafa
16:04:05 <mostafa> Najib: I have a concern about pronounciation and how the Arab read their numbers
16:04:06 <mostafa> q+
16:04:11 <mostafa> … What about Persian?
16:05:02 <mostafa> Shervin: I’m not sure about that section. We are talking about text, not how different languages read their texts.
16:05:12 <mostafa> Richard: +1
16:05:31 <Shervin> ack mostafa
16:07:45 <mostafa> Najib: Action-37 is done.
16:08:00 <mostafa> Mostafa: Action-55 is still ongoing.
16:08:52 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/28-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:08:59 <Shervin> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/blob/gh-pages/misc/scripts/generate-glossary.groovy
16:09:36 <r12a> rrsagent, make log public
16:09:53 <Shervin> Zakim, please leave us
16:09:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please leave us', Shervin
16:10:27 <Shervin> zakim, excuse us
16:10:27 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been r12a, mostafa, Shervin, najib
16:10:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #alreq
16:10:41 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/21-alreq-minutes.html
16:12:35 <najib> najib has left #alreq