IRC log of auto on 2016-06-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:44 [RRSAgent]
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15:54:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:59:53 [AdamC]
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16:00:32 [junichi-hashimoto]
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16:03:28 [kaz]
Meeting: Automotive WG
16:03:29 [KevG]
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16:03:41 [urata_access]
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16:04:11 [kaz]
present: Adam_Crofts, Peter Winzell, Kevin_Gavigan, Junichi_Hashimoto, Kaz_Ashimura, Qing_An, Ted_Guild, Shinjiro_Urata
16:05:58 [kaz]
16:06:07 [kaz]
topic: f2f
16:06:12 [kaz]
peter: any questions?
16:06:32 [kaz]
kevin: initially approved but not final
16:06:44 [kaz]
peter: ok
16:07:23 [kaz]
topic: service interface
16:07:32 [kaz]
peter: looked at the data spec
16:07:46 [kaz]
... to see how to transfer the data to the service interface
16:08:22 [kaz]
son: coming to Portland
16:08:23 [kaz]
urata: also coming
16:08:33 [ted]
16:09:00 [kaz]
ted: will be in Portland
16:09:20 [kaz]
kaz: me too
16:09:35 [kaz]
s/topic: service interface//
16:10:10 [ted]
-> F2F registration
16:10:25 [kaz]
topic: service interface
16:11:19 [kaz]
kevin: shows the wiki
16:11:35 [kaz]
... tx for good input from Song
16:11:52 [kaz]
... Architecture session and Security/Privacy session
16:12:27 [kaz]
-> Vehicle Information Service Spec wiki
16:12:59 [kaz]
kevin: (goes through the Architecture section)
16:13:04 [kaz]
16:13:06 [kaz]
16:13:45 [kaz]
16:13:46 [kaz]
The following diagram provides a component view of a vehicle system that implements the W3C Vehicle and Data APIs. This includes a JavaScript library which implements a Web IDL definition of the APIs and an on-board vehicle server that exposes vehicle data via a WebSocket and/or RESTful Web Service API. The diagram also shows a number of different types of on-board and offboard clients that can consume vehicle signal data.
16:13:46 [kaz]
W3C Vehicle API Component Diagram v1.2.png
16:13:47 [kaz]
16:14:44 [kaz]
kevin: (goes through the component/description)
16:15:19 [kaz]
... the Server has the vehicle data
16:16:27 [kaz]
... 4 components corresponding to the Server: Browser, Web Runtime, Native/Managed App, or System
16:17:01 [kaz]
... on the Vehicle side
16:17:09 [kaz]
... Franca could be used
16:17:33 [kaz]
... this is a strawman diagram as starting point
16:17:45 [kaz]
peter: please go back to the diagram
16:17:55 [kaz]
... I wrote in my email
16:18:05 [kaz]
... we want to use WebIDL for the spec
16:18:20 [kaz]
... that would work fine, I think
16:18:46 [kaz]
... don't think there would be issues
16:19:16 [kaz]
... because the service interface is quite simple
16:19:47 [kaz]
kevin: we could create a JS library which people could use
16:20:19 [kaz]
peter: one thing to discuss is how WebIDL would work
16:20:49 [kaz]
... the current W3C Vehicle Data spec or some other source?
16:21:24 [kaz]
... you could probably use the current spec
16:21:52 [kaz]
... not sure and am just looking the difference with VSS, though
16:22:21 [kaz]
adam: one of the key issues is location
16:22:45 [kaz]
kevin: we've been having discussion internally
16:23:01 [kaz]
... the consensus is that vehicle data should be logical
16:23:38 [kaz]
... would be easier to transfer from one to another
16:24:22 [kaz]
... e.g., left front mirror and right front door
16:24:57 [kaz]
... it's more forgivable to have vehicle.door.left , etc.
16:25:11 [kaz]
... vehicle.communication.position style
16:25:39 [kaz]
... e.g.,
16:25:57 [kaz]
peter: there are implementations of the current draft spec
16:26:25 [kaz]
... should we try transition from that to the new proposal?
16:27:00 [rstreif]
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16:27:03 [kaz]
... the current vehicle data spec covers a lot of stages
16:27:16 [kaz]
present+ Rudi_Streif
16:27:27 [kaz]
... granularity issues
16:27:44 [kaz]
... how to map actual contents
16:28:14 [kaz]
... I have cloned the repo
16:29:07 [kaz]
... could put examples on the wiki
16:29:51 [kaz]
... should we have one sort of tree, or several possible trees in parallel?
16:30:10 [kaz]
... e.g., W3C tree vs. Genivi tree
16:30:19 [kaz]
... would not a good idea
16:30:25 [kaz]
rudi: you can have multiple trees
16:30:32 [kaz]
... but could have one standard tree
16:31:48 [kaz]
... would make it fit the actual industry
16:32:31 [kaz]
kevin: elements could have class
16:32:40 [kaz]
... each element has a unique ID
16:32:47 [kaz]
... JQuery-like approach
16:33:21 [kaz]
... class based on the ID
16:33:35 [kaz]
... could be very powerful
16:34:11 [kaz]
rudi: good to have a philosophy on the data model
16:34:36 [kaz]
... very powerful and flexible way
16:35:01 [kaz]
kevin: implicit knowledge for understanding
16:35:24 [kaz]
rudi: discussion internally
16:35:57 [junichi-hashimoto_]
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16:35:57 [kaz]
... perfect topic to discuss in Portland
16:36:21 [kaz]
peter: we briefly mentioned the f2f
16:37:04 [kaz]
... many people will come to Portland
16:37:38 [kaz]
-> registration results
16:38:04 [kaz]
kevin: would get the conclusion within a few days
16:39:19 [kaz]
peter: don't have any more questions
16:39:29 [kaz]
rudi: strawman initial agenda on the wiki
16:39:45 [kaz]
... feel free to add topics
16:41:09 [kaz]
kevin: Security and Privacy section
16:41:19 [kaz]
... open to criticism
16:41:53 [kaz]
... suggestion is having 2 levels
16:43:09 [kaz]
... one security principle is "User"
16:43:20 [kaz]
... another is "Device"
16:43:42 [kaz]
s/2 levels/2 principles/
16:44:20 [kaz]
... and suggestions on each security principal
16:44:41 [kaz]
16:45:30 [kaz]
... obtaining and renewing security tokens
16:47:18 [kaz]
... examples of token values
16:47:39 [kaz]
... User: Authorization
16:47:46 [kaz]
... Device: WWW-Vehicle-Device
16:48:47 [kaz]
... Use of Encryption
16:49:18 [kaz]
... signals are encrypted between the client and the server
16:51:21 [kaz]
... Token Renewal
16:51:41 [kaz]
... each security token will have a particular lifetime
16:52:46 [kaz]
... Error Handling
16:53:03 [kaz]
... 401: Unauthorized (token expired)
16:53:43 [kaz]
... got Song Li's comments by email
16:54:13 [kaz]
... TODO: Discuss requesting IANA reserves HTTP error number 461 (vehicle/device unauthorised) and 463 (vehicle/device forbidden)
16:54:57 [kaz]
... TODO: Add table with list of error codes
16:55:52 [kaz]
rudi: need to see formal granularity
16:56:47 [kaz]
... if I have authority to access data, need to have some certificate
16:57:15 [kaz]
... what kind of signal would it be?
16:57:59 [kaz]
kevin: need to achieve
16:58:22 [kaz]
... make sure it could be applied to different implementation
16:58:31 [kaz]
16:58:48 [kaz]
rudi: balance between the spec and interoperability
16:59:24 [kaz]
... have to be specific enough but can't specify too much details
16:59:30 [kaz]
kevin: agree
16:59:50 [kaz]
junichi: what if the network is unreachable?
17:00:05 [kaz]
... in that case, we can't talk with external servers
17:00:13 [kaz]
... so can't get certificates
17:00:25 [kaz]
kevin: that's possible
17:00:38 [kaz]
... but could have hardware chip on the vehicle
17:00:43 [kaz]
... don't have to go out
17:01:23 [kaz]
s/certificates/security tokens/
17:01:32 [kaz]
rudi: need to leave now
17:01:42 [kaz]
peter: different questions
17:01:48 [kaz]
... looking VSS
17:01:54 [kaz]
s/VSS/at VSS/
17:02:10 [kaz]
... W3C should look into it?
17:03:02 [kaz]
... thought something we might need to consider
17:03:11 [kaz]
s/into it/into the license/
17:03:22 [kaz]
rudi: should not be a show stopper
17:03:28 [kaz]
ted: will take a look
17:03:38 [kaz]
rudi: leaving
17:04:16 [kaz]
peter: anything else to discuss today, Kevin?
17:04:17 [kaz]
kevin: no
17:05:35 [kaz]
topic: WG charter update
17:05:56 [kaz]
kaz: Ted brought the extension to W3M and got approval for 3-month extension
17:06:21 [kaz]
... now we should update the charter with the new deliveralbles including the service interface
17:06:44 [kaz]
... each TF moderator and editor is encouraged to generate bullet points on their work
17:06:55 [kaz]
junichi: new deadline is the end of Sep?
17:06:57 [kaz]
kaz: yes
17:07:55 [kaz]
kevin: good feedback from Rudi and Powell
17:08:09 [kaz]
... request for server and response to client
17:08:20 [kaz]
... timestamp for responses
17:08:55 [kaz]
... we'll go through and finish the changes
17:09:06 [kaz]
peter: tx
17:09:16 [kaz]
... will also continue to look at the spec
17:09:28 [kaz]
... need to discuss what data we should use
17:09:52 [kaz]
... ACCESS, etc., have implementation of the current vehicle spec
17:10:37 [kaz]
urata: about this service spec, the discussion makes sense to me
17:11:05 [kaz]
... which request corresponds to which response
17:11:11 [kaz]
... timestamp would be useful
17:11:22 [kaz]
... those discussions make sense
17:12:38 [kaz]
kaz: maybe we need some kind of session id as well?
17:12:41 [kaz]
kevin: possibly
17:12:58 [kaz]
... the whole websockets will be used by a single instance
17:14:07 [kaz]
... using natural request/response pair
17:14:46 [kaz]
kevin: some sequence diagram might be useful
17:15:42 [kaz]
peter: the server might keep different sessions at once
17:16:30 [kaz]
... the client can open more than one connections
17:18:09 [kaz]
s/... the/kevin: the/
17:19:37 [kaz]
kaz: we should generate some Use Case descriptions, scenarios and then sequence diagrams
17:19:44 [kaz]
peter: would be useful
17:20:04 [kaz]
urata: difficult to follow the discussion by emails
17:20:19 [kaz]
... maybe we can use GitHub issues, can't we?
17:20:25 [kaz]
peter: ok
17:20:34 [kaz]
adam: we can raise issues
17:21:05 [kaz]
kaz: do you have any images/issues to be added?
17:21:40 [kaz]
urata: getting clear images for this service spec but want to record the discussion clearly
17:22:10 [kaz]
kevin: will bring the discussion to the GitHub from now on
17:22:15 [kaz]
urata: tx
17:22:40 [kaz]
kevin: Adam and I are working on some implementation
17:23:14 [kaz]
peter: would polish up before the f2f
17:23:48 [kaz]
s/would polish/also have one and would polish it/
17:24:20 [kaz]
kaz: you mean implementations of this service interface?
17:24:37 [kaz]
kevin+peter: yes
17:26:23 [kaz]
[ adjourned ]
17:26:29 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
17:26:34 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:26:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
17:28:21 [kaz]
Chair: Peter
17:28:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:28:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz