18:31:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:31:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/21-aapi-irc
18:31:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
18:31:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:31:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:31:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:31:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:31:19 <trackbot> Date: 21 June 2016
18:31:32 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:31:56 <clown> agenda: this
18:32:04 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI.
18:32:12 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1696/ACTION-1698 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI, IA2, and AXAPI mappings of aria-keyshortcuts.
18:32:18 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1706 (Joseph) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express.
18:32:24 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant.
18:32:30 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1739 (Joseph) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces.
18:32:37 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)
18:32:44 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values.
18:32:51 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2076 (Joseph) MSAA+IA2 mapping of separator when it is a splitter widget between panes.
18:33:00 <clown> agenda+ Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
18:33:06 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:33:13 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:33:18 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:33:23 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:33:59 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 28-Jun-2016, 20:00 UTC)
19:01:14 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:01:25 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:02:00 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:02:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:03:18 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:03:34 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:04:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:04:50 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:04:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]
19:04:57 <clown> action-1533
19:04:57 <trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI -- due 2016-05-24 -- OPEN
19:04:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533
19:05:36 <joanie> JD: This is a work in progress.
19:05:48 <joanie> JD: I have started the porting to GNU/Linux.
19:08:07 <joanie> JD: In a nutshell, it looks awesome, but I think we will probably want to make some changes/tweaks.
19:08:38 <joanie> JD: One being nitty-level stuff, like a common/shared API that handles differences in exposure in the various platforms (e.g. interfaces versus patterns).
19:08:54 <joanie> JD: The other potentially being additions needed to test what we need to test in ARIA.
19:09:06 <joanie> JD: But I won't be sure about that until I make more progress on the porting.
19:09:15 <joanie> JD: But, again, what Microsoft did is pretty cool.
19:10:53 <joanie> JS: Change the due date or weekly reminders?
19:11:02 <joanie> JD: Up to you. I'm actively working on it now.
19:11:15 <joanie> JS: I could move it to the 5th of July -- or the 12th.
19:11:24 <joanie> JS: If you want it added to the agenda, just say so.
19:11:26 <joanie> JD: Perfect.
19:11:48 <joanie> JS: My other question is: Are you greating a github repo for GNU/Linux?
19:12:01 <joanie> JD: My plan is ultimately for it to be in github.
19:14:40 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:15:43 <joanie> CS: I was thinking that the higher-level abstraction is called ARIA 2.0.
19:16:45 <joanie> RS: Control Patterns would fall under the branding for ARIA 2.0.
19:16:55 <joanie> RS: It's to look at things beyond just ARIA.
19:17:14 <joanie> CS: Control Patterns and Interfaces seem fairly similar.
19:17:23 <joanie> CS: And this is why I was thinking it's part of ARIA 2.0.
19:18:20 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:18:42 <clown> JD:  for example, we have new values for aria-haspopup
19:19:06 <clown> JD:  in the test, the way we get those values is dependent on the AAPI.
19:19:27 <clown> CS:  It sounds like you want something that works quick-n-dirty in the short term.
19:19:53 <clown> CS:  The way we did that is consider a mapping from the general ARIA to the platform specific values.  UIA in our case.
19:20:17 <clown> CS:  I would think you can do that platform specific stuff in ATK/AT-SPI.
19:20:37 <clown> CS:  I don't want to get sucked into a full blown abstract generalizaion of these test cases.
19:21:04 <clown> JD:  I hear you, and we can do the quick-n-dirty approach.
19:21:15 <clown> JD:  But, I'm not yet at a point to say exactly how to do that.
19:21:29 <clown> JD:  My plan is to contact your colleague and submit patches.
19:21:47 <clown> CS:  do you have examples of what you are thinking of?
19:21:54 <clown> JD:  I haven't gotten that far yet.
19:22:46 <clown> JD:  My plan is to figure out how to do this, and submit patches.
19:23:05 <clown> CS:  What you say sounds interesting.  I would like to see it more concretely.
19:23:10 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:23:42 <joanie> JS: I'll bring this up again July 12th.
19:23:48 <joanie> JS: Sooner if you let me know.
19:23:51 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:23:51 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1696/ACTION-1698 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI, IA2, and AXAPI mappings of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]
19:24:05 <clown> action-1696
19:24:05 <trackbot> action-1696 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts -- due 2016-06-14 -- OPEN
19:24:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1696
19:24:12 <joanie> JS: There has been some discussion with Alex Surkove about this.
19:24:27 <joanie> JS: This is on Joanie to come up with a way to expose aria-keyshortcuts.
19:24:51 <joanie> JS: Joanie's proposal recently was to use the AtkAction interface.
19:25:13 <joanie> JS: AtkAction has name, description, is connected to an accessible, and also has a do_action method.
19:25:27 <joanie> JS: The user can interact with the widget via this interface.
19:25:43 <joanie> JS: One of Joanie's proposals was to use this as a means to expose the keyshortcuts.
19:25:59 <joanie> JS: But the problem with this is that the action cannot actually be performed.
19:26:24 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:26:54 <clown> JD:  Originally, I emailed IA2 list for synchronicity between IA2 and ATK.
19:27:30 <clown> JD:  Jamie said that IA2 already have accKeyShortcut property.
19:27:57 <clown> JD:  So, I said ATK coudl either use an object attribute or AtkAction.
19:28:20 <clown> JD:  But object attributes are not performant.  AtkAction would be better.
19:28:34 <clown> JD:  I asked Alex what he would want to do.
19:29:18 <clown> JD:  And, he said AtkAction is fine, and the browser will guess what action to perform, or send a click action
19:29:36 <clown> CS:  We analyzed a whole bunch of stuff, and mapped it to a click.
19:29:54 <clown> CS:  But we did not do this for aria-keyshortcuts.
19:30:09 <clown> JD:  That is how my platform works.
19:30:46 <clown> JD:  I don't think we can use an action for ATK for aria-keyshortcuts.
19:31:00 <clown> JD:  I'm landing on just using object attributes.
19:31:33 <clown> CS:  We are not doing anything except putting the string in a property.
19:32:04 <clown> CS:  Actually, real widgets' shortcuts work the same way — it's descriptive. It doesn't do anything.
19:33:09 <clown> JD:  I can imagine authors scripting multiple keyboard shortcuts without there being any widget present at all.
19:34:03 <clown> JD: I'm going to email Alex, and just say object attribute.
19:34:12 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:34:23 <joanie> JS: I replied to Alex that there might not even be a click handler.
19:34:31 <joanie> JS: So doing a click might result in nothing.
19:35:02 <joanie> CS: There are a lot of cases where there is a click handler.
19:35:09 <joanie> CS: So that's why we went with that.
19:35:23 <joanie> CS: It usually will do what the author has already done.
19:35:36 <joanie> JS: There's even a section in the Core AAM about setting click actions as the default action.
19:35:38 <clown> http://localhost/~clown/GitHub/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_actions
19:35:48 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_actions
19:35:51 <joanie> CS: That was always a fallback that we intended to improve.
19:36:17 <joanie> JS: But what's here is a SHOULD.
19:36:47 <joanie> CS: In the short term, having it as a descriptive string sounds like the right thing to do.
19:37:22 <joanie> JS: I'll leave it to Joanie to follow up with Alex.
19:37:31 <joanie> JS: And I will leave the due date as-is.
19:39:00 <joanie> JD: I think this is ready for you Joseph.
19:39:10 <joanie> JD: It's expose as an object attribute
19:39:28 <joanie> JD: The exact name is, I think, keyshortcuts (i.e. chop off "aria-")
19:39:34 <joanie> JD: You should probably verify this.
19:39:45 <joanie> JS: I will try to have this done next week.
19:39:48 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:48 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1706 (Joseph) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express." taken up [from clown]
19:39:57 <clown> action-1706
19:39:57 <trackbot> action-1706 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-aam, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2016-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:39:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1706
19:40:07 <joanie> JS: I got the statement from Cynthia a while back.
19:40:18 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/dd087eaa68b9936bc8173ae92d3ec47b570860d6
19:40:23 <joanie> JS: I added that statement to the spec (URL above).
19:40:28 <joanie> JS: I did that last week.
19:40:46 <joanie> JS: You (Cynthia) can delete your branch after you verify it.
19:40:57 <joanie> CS: Looks good to me.
19:41:16 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/Action-1706/core-aam/core-aam.html#intro_aapi
19:41:51 <joanie> JS: I manually squashed and merged it.
19:43:28 <joanie> CS: I'm also going to close the pull request.
19:43:36 <joanie> JS: And I'm going to close the action.
19:43:46 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:43:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant." taken up [from clown]
19:43:55 <clown> action-2065?
19:43:55 <trackbot> action-2065 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add this statement to the core-aam: “user agents are not expected to validate that the active descendant is a descendant of the focused container. “ -- due 2016-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:43:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2065
19:44:19 <joanie> JS: This is your pull request for the statement regarding not needing to validate activedescendant.
19:44:40 <joanie> JS: I've merged in your text and added the link we discussed last week.
19:44:52 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/b51868eca0acc75bfe69601012437f0cef404001
19:45:03 <joanie> s/not needing/user agents not needing/
19:45:07 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
19:45:25 <joanie> JS: It's at the URL above. In the first paragraph, second sentence.
19:45:30 <joanie> JS: (Reads outloud)
19:45:47 <joanie> JS: Any objections?
19:45:52 <joanie> CS: Looks good to me.
19:45:58 <joanie> JS: You can close your branch (Cynthia).
19:46:03 <joanie> JS: I will close the action.
19:46:13 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:46:13 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1739 (Joseph) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces." taken up [from clown]
19:46:31 <clown> action-1739
19:46:31 <trackbot> action-1739 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN
19:46:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739
19:46:36 <joanie> JS: I'm supposed to add, based on Joanie's advice, all the relevant interfaces.
19:46:42 <joanie> JS: I've started, but not yet finished.
19:46:47 <joanie> JS: So nothing to review yet.
19:46:53 <joanie> JS: We'll come back to it next week.
19:47:00 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:47:00 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, joanie
19:47:06 <joanie> Zakim, close this item
19:47:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
19:47:07 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:47:07 <Zakim> 6. ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?) [from clown]
19:47:08 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:47:09 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)" taken up [from clown]
19:47:13 <clown> action-2022?
19:47:13 <trackbot> action-2022 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Followup with alex about ia2 discussion re: adding a landmark role, similar to atk -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
19:47:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2022
19:47:38 <joanie> JS: I came across this action, which I think is obsolete.
19:47:58 <joanie> RS: We discussed this with Alex.
19:48:07 <joanie> RS: We got agreement, but I don't know if they did it yet.
19:48:37 <joanie> JS: The mappings are already using it in the Core AAM.
19:48:44 <joanie> JS: We'll find out when we do the tests.
19:48:50 <joanie> JS: I suggest we close action-2022.
19:48:53 <joanie> JS: Objections?
19:48:55 <joanie> (None)
19:49:02 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:49:02 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values." taken up [from clown]
19:49:10 <clown> action-2056?
19:49:10 <trackbot> action-2056 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Coordinate the mappings for the various AAPIs of the enumerated aria-haspopup values -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
19:49:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2056
19:49:24 <joanie> JS: Before Rich went on vacation, he gave me some text.
19:49:39 <joanie> JS: I did that but would like your (Rich's) review.
19:49:49 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaHaspopupDialog
19:49:50 <joanie> JS: The first one is at the above URL.
19:50:00 <joanie> RS: I had put stuff in the spec for those things.
19:50:05 <joanie> JS: Right, and I've merged them in.
19:50:36 <joanie> JS: I think we have everyone's but Apple's.
19:50:45 <joanie> JD: There's an email on the list for that.
19:52:22 <joanie> RS: The reason we have this in here is because of combo box.
19:52:48 <joanie> RS: We want to avoid people getting confused by having people wind up in, say, a grid after activating a combobox.
19:53:22 <joanie> JS: I think James is going to come back with you can find out via examining the object associated with aria-controls/aria-owns.
19:53:40 <joanie> JS: So an AT can already figure this out.
19:53:45 <joanie> RS: So have them map it to true.
19:54:26 <joanie> JS: I think I just copied the "true" values for AXAPI. Or you did, Rich.
19:54:29 <joanie> RS: I did.
19:54:48 <joanie> RS: As long as VoiceOver can do the extra work, then there should be no problem.
19:55:18 <joanie> JS: Should I add a statement to this effect?
19:55:32 <joanie> RS + JD: No. That's what VoiceOver does. It's not a mapping.
19:56:33 <joanie> JS: We cannot close this because James has an objection.
19:57:18 <clown> Of note is that this change is not backwards-compatible with ARIA 1.1 because authors changing aria-haspopup="true" to one of the new enumerated types will find that this breaks all current implementations. It will currently be treated as aria-haspopup="false" (the default value for ARIA 1.0).
19:57:30 <joanie> JS: He also said the above.
19:57:50 <joanie> JS: I don't think that's right.
19:57:54 <joanie> RS: I don't either.
19:58:10 <joanie> q+
19:59:04 <bgaraventa1979> sorry guys getting booted from the room
19:59:05 <clown> "When exposing as a platform API Boolean https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#def_state, treat "", "undefined" or no https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#def_attribute present as false. Treat any other value as true."
19:59:12 <joanie> JD: I think James is correct.
19:59:18 <clown> "When exposing as a platform API Boolean state, treat "", "undefined" or no attribute present as false. Treat any other value as true."
19:59:24 <clown> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#document-handling_author-errors
19:59:38 <joanie> CS: For our platform, we plan on making everything that isn't "false" map to "true"
19:59:55 <joanie> JS: I found this quote from the 1.0 UAIG.
20:00:35 <joanie> s/this quote/the above quote/
20:00:59 <joanie> JS: Is there any conflict between the ARIA spec and mapping spec regarding error handling for booleans?
20:01:04 <joanie> RS: I think we're fine.
20:01:27 <joanie> JS: I'm tempted to put together some markup to test this with Safari.
20:01:35 <joanie> JS: And see how it gets mapped currently.
20:01:42 <joanie> JS: But I don't know if I'll have time to do this.
20:02:04 <joanie> RS: I think James' issue is addressed.
20:02:13 <joanie> RS: And there's no API change.
20:03:01 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:03:01 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:03:18 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:03:25 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/21-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:04:24 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:04:30 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop