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15:00:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:00:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:00:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:00:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:00:45 <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2016
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15:02:50 <dbooth> Present: EricP, Chad Albert, Rick Kiefer, Amol, Shahram, Harold Solbrig
15:03:19 <dbooth> Topic: ShEx Validation of FHIR RDF
15:04:05 <dbooth> harold: we have an incomplete steady state.  All of the core FHIR examples validate in ShEx.  We have a known set of things that we need to do, such as minValue, maxValue.  And some bigger issues to work through.
15:04:41 <dbooth> ... There are three resource bundling mechanisms, by reference and by value.
15:05:01 <dbooth> ... Grahame thinks the shex should included validating everything that you could put inside.
15:05:35 <dbooth> ... For the moment we do not validate the referents.   Discussion will continue.
15:06:13 <dbooth> ... I propose two modes: complete shex, and a mode that only validates the non-referents.
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15:06:48 <dbooth> ... The other thing is extensions.  At the moment we're faithful with the FHIR approach.  Josh had proposed representing extensions as first-class predicates, and there's a huge value in doing that.
15:07:30 <dbooth> ... I'll propose a hybrid to carry them both as tagged values, to make it easy to roundtrip.  But also add a URI as a predicate into the RDF.
15:07:52 <dbooth> ... That's important because as soon as we add extensions, closed and complete validation becomes more of an issue.
15:08:20 <dbooth> ... Slicing does not work right now.  If you give it slicing it generates invalid shex.
15:09:54 <dbooth> ... The most difficult one is the declaration of the discriminator.  Even if it is one attribute, often the discriminant is  a coding that has multiple properties.  That will be the biggest challenge in shex.
15:10:42 <dbooth> eric: The discriminator allows you to write a simple verifier.
15:11:03 <dbooth> harold: The simplest form is one with only the discriminator.
15:11:12 <dbooth> eric: That will require 'unique' in shex.
15:12:04 <dbooth> harold: I did a rough review of the constraints in the FHIR core -- 400 constraints.  While the patterns were not consistent enough to characterize, the majority were existential combinations.
15:12:46 <dbooth> ... Diminishing returns for the extension model.
15:14:03 <dbooth> ... I looked for comparisons with paths on both sides, and there were only about 5 of them.  Not sure if they're worth doing.
15:14:41 <dbooth> ... Much of our funding comes from someone in the academic world, and papers are important to them.  We wrote a paper on this.
15:15:02 <dbooth> ... Reviews and coauthors welcomed.
15:16:00 <dbooth> eric: Most of the shapes can now be easily captured.
15:16:35 <dbooth> harold: If you look at the lastest FHIR distro, they have an RDF template language that is consistent with the XML and JSON.
15:18:48 <dbooth> harold: Propose using shex, with added comments, instead of this made-up pseudo-Turtle
15:21:03 <dbooth> dbooth: With grahame we discussed possibly having both the pseudo-Turtle and shex.
15:22:36 <dbooth> harold: We'll try the shex, and then we can do an A-B comparison.
15:23:48 <dbooth> dbooth: An example is in the structure definition of AllergyIntolerance: https://hl7-fhir.github.io/allergyintolerance.html
15:24:42 <dbooth> harold: Also proposing a REST service for the validator.
15:25:07 <dbooth> dbooth: You can put it on yosemiteproject.org site.
15:26:38 <dbooth> dbooth: How do we know if we're done?   i.e., covered all of FHIR?
15:27:36 <dbooth> eric: we can either do formal coverage analysis, or we can hope that grahame notifies us if he adds anything.
15:28:14 <dbooth> harold: we have a pretty good list in the paper.
15:28:21 <dbooth> dbooth: We should use that as our punch list.
15:28:48 <dbooth> ACTION: Harold to provide the list of remaining items that need to be implemented in FHIR RDF
15:28:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Provide the list of remaining items that need to be implemented in fhir rdf [on Harold Solbrig - due 2016-06-21].
15:29:05 <dbooth> harold: Also need to verify round tripping.
15:29:17 <dbooth> ... That's indirectly in grahame's court.
15:29:42 <dbooth> ... There are skeletons for round tripping.
15:30:08 <dbooth> dbooth: I wonder if michael would be willing to look at that.
15:30:35 <dbooth> ACTION: Dbooth to ask Michael about implementing the round tripping.
15:30:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Ask michael about implementing the round tripping. [on David Booth - due 2016-06-21].
15:30:56 <dbooth> harold: Also need failing tests.
15:31:59 <dbooth> dbooth: Grahame already has some of those for XML and JSON.  We should mimic those for RDF.  But we may want more also.
15:33:06 <dbooth> eric: Grahame said he would look into that.
15:35:51 <dbooth> ACTION: Harold to prepare slicing and extension examples for discussion next week
15:35:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Prepare slicing and extension examples for discussion next week [on Harold Solbrig - due 2016-06-21].
15:38:27 <dbooth> harold: A selling point of RDF: there are 4-5 different modeling paradigms in FHIR.  Some are more obvious than others.  Converting it to RDF and shex gives you a uniform representation and a single constraint model.
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15:40:59 <dbooth> Topic: Agenda planning
15:42:39 <dbooth> marc: We should brainstorm on a call
15:43:33 <dbooth> dbooth: want to include renato ianella and grahame and marc on discussiong FHIR on schema.org
15:44:59 <dbooth> ACTION: Dbooth to contact Renato, grahame and marc about joining a call on fhir and schema.org
15:44:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Contact renato, grahame and marc about joining a call on fhir and schema.org [on David Booth - due 2016-06-21].
15:46:35 <dbooth> Issues list: https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues
15:48:04 <dbooth> Topic:  What should the type of fhir:link target be in the ShEx? Issue #30
15:49:30 <dbooth> eric: We could move the rdf:type arc down to the actual (referenced) patient
15:50:21 <dbooth> ... That does not enable full validation of the referent.  But it avoids using a different type arc.
15:51:19 <dbooth> https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/30
15:53:35 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:53:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
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15:53:38 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth
15:54:35 <ericP2> <Obs1> a fhir:Observation; fhir: Observation.performer [     link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;     Reference.reference [ fhir:value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
15:55:50 <dbooth> here it is again, hopefully a little more readable:
15:55:51 <dbooth> <Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
15:55:51 <dbooth>   fhir: Observation.performer [
15:55:51 <dbooth>     link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
15:55:51 <dbooth>     Reference.reference [
15:55:52 <dbooth>       fhir:value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
15:56:35 <ericP2> damn, i was being so elequent
15:58:24 <ericP2> type arc on referrent: <Obs1> a fhir:Observation; fhir: Observation.performer [     link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;     Reference.reference [ fhir:value "Practitioner/f005" ] ]; <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005> a fhir:Practitioner .
15:58:57 <ericP2> type arc on referrence: <Obs1> a fhir:Observation; fhir: Observation.performer [     link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;     Reference.reference [ fhir:value "Practitioner/f005" ] ; a fhir:PractitionerReference .];
16:00:38 <dbooth> here is the second example again:
16:00:39 <dbooth> type arc on referrent:
16:00:39 <dbooth> <Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
16:00:39 <dbooth>   fhir: Observation.performer [
16:00:39 <dbooth>     link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
16:00:40 <dbooth>     Reference.reference [
16:00:41 <dbooth>       fhir:value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
16:00:43 <dbooth>   <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005> a fhir:Practitioner .
16:02:02 <dbooth> the third example again:
16:02:02 <dbooth> type arc on referrence:
16:02:02 <dbooth> <Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
16:02:02 <dbooth>   fhir: Observation.performer [
16:02:02 <dbooth>     link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
16:02:04 <dbooth>     Reference.reference [ fhir:value "Practitioner/f005" ] ;
16:02:06 <dbooth>     a fhir:PractitionerReference .];
16:08:58 <dbooth> Present+ Brian Pech, David Booth, Sajjad Hussain, Marc T
16:10:09 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
16:10:20 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
18:57:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #hcls
21:05:43 <dbooth> trackbot, start meeting
21:05:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
21:05:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
21:05:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
21:05:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
21:05:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
21:05:48 <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2016
21:06:01 <dbooth> Topic: ============== 5pm Call ===============
21:06:29 <dbooth> Notes from earlier today: http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-hcls-minutes.html
21:06:43 <dbooth> Topic: Status
21:07:31 <dbooth> grahame: Got shex working in the build, then tried to validate with fhir.shex, got some validation errors, and i could not figure out how to tell it which graph to connect to the starting point.
21:08:13 <dbooth> s/Status/ShEx Validation Status/
21:08:30 <dbooth> eric: Could a parameter be passed indicating where to start?
21:08:54 <dbooth> grahame: Yes, but maybe not always.
21:09:28 <dbooth> ... In a stream you'd have to look into the stream and figure out where it is.  I guess you could always look at the RDf triples first, to find the entry point.
21:09:55 <dbooth> eric: You're mostly using type validation in XML Schema, but you use element validation for the resource roots.
21:10:49 <dbooth> ... Because element validation is very simple, because you know what the root element is.
21:10:57 <dbooth> dbooth: We have treeRoot in FHIR RDF
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21:11:53 <dbooth> grahame: we could have shex be told what node to validate.
21:13:43 <dbooth> grahame: but my API says "here's a graph and here's the shex.  go validate" and it wouldn't know what starting node to use.
21:15:18 <dbooth> eric: my temptation is to leave it to the caller to decide how to tell shex the starting node.
21:16:00 <dbooth> grahame: v3 features are not widely supported.  Even if we can get them through the standards process, they probably won't be adopted.
21:16:31 <dbooth> ... So I'm wary of saying "let's do this cool fhir".   But the "where do i start" is not just a shex problem.
21:21:20 <dbooth> eric: For FHIR RDF, we coudl have it look for treeRoot, then pick up the type from that.
21:21:42 <dbooth> grahame: we could put that in the spec, but i suspect that's not the last you've heard of the problem.
21:27:08 <ericP> we want something more specific than simple validation as a Resource; we want something more like a LeafResource, which is a disjunction of ~140 resources
21:27:16 <dbooth> dbooth: How about a shex execution mode that allows a set of types to be specified, and it will validate any instances that are found?
21:28:10 <dbooth> Present+ Grahame Grieve, EricP, David Booth, Rob Hausam
21:32:27 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
21:32:30 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:32:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-hcls-minutes.html dbooth