13:47:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:47:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-irc
13:47:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:47:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
13:47:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:47:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:47:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:47:38 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2016
13:50:55 <allanj> chair: Jim and Andrew
14:03:29 <allanj> Agenda+ comments needed on github
14:03:31 <allanj> Agenda+ Section 2.5: Functional Vision https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/73
14:03:32 <allanj> Agenda+ Disclaimer draft (action-58)  https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/67
14:03:34 <allanj> Agenda+ User Access to Necessary Customization
14:03:35 <allanj> Agenda+ Begin working on SC - acceptance criteria (review), walk the gap analysis (proposed - WCAG needs SC before Dec 2016)
14:04:26 <allanj> regrets+JohnR, JonA
14:55:03 <allanj> present+ Jim, Wayne
14:57:35 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
14:58:02 <shawn> present+ shawn
14:58:52 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:04:08 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #lvtf
15:04:58 <Wayne> Scribe: Wayne
15:05:23 <Wayne> zakim, close item 1
15:05:23 <Zakim> agendum 1, comments needed on github, closed
15:05:25 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:25 <Zakim> 2. Section 2.5: Functional Vision https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/73 [from allanj]
15:05:50 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:06:07 <Wayne> zakim, open item 2
15:06:07 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Section 2.5: Functional Vision https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/73" taken up [from allanj]
15:08:55 <laura> present+ Laura
15:09:19 <shawn> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:19 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Wayne, shawn, Laura
15:09:24 <shawn> present+ Scott
15:09:41 <ScottM> +1
15:09:54 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: Accept point 1a
15:10:36 <ScottM> Did te meeting start before 11?
15:13:53 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: Accept point 1b
15:14:03 <shawn> ok
15:14:35 <allanj> will change effective to functional
15:15:53 <allanj> wd: visual clutter is a design issue
15:16:32 <Wayne> shawn: What is the user need?
15:16:41 <allanj> lc: do we address clutter in the document...need to add visual clutter as a term
15:16:46 <Wayne> laura: a way to remove clutter.
15:17:23 <Wayne> scott: After my surgery my brain would shut down with too much clutter.
15:17:45 <Wayne> ...: Give guidelines as to what is color.
15:18:33 <allanj> ja: add 'visual clutter' to 'other factors'
15:19:13 <allanj> wd: yes, but we need explanation and perhaps a user need (explains his issues with clutter)'
15:19:38 <allanj> sh: is a user need, separate or expansion of another.
15:21:19 <allanj> wd: clutter is separating figure from ground
15:21:41 <ScottM> Aree it's both
15:23:52 <Wayne> sh: It is tha aspect of the environmental design.
15:25:17 <allanj> wd: the architecture of the environment - doesn't matter how or what caused the clutter. Clutter is still an issue
15:25:57 <Wayne> Sh: We all agree it is an environmental factor.
15:26:17 <Wayne> ..: We are just talking about physical environment.
15:26:59 <shawn> SM: then it's a user need, not environment
15:27:57 <Wayne> sh: The point is so important we don't want to just add it to our list, we aer making it a UN.
15:28:43 <shawn> s/It is tha aspect of the environmental design./It is tha aspect of the information design.
15:29:01 <shawn> s/We all agree it is an environmental factor./We all agree it is a user need.
15:30:54 <allanj> ja: change 'Environmental factors include:' to 'Environmental factors include (but not limited to):'
15:31:43 <Wayne> ja: Change title of list to include but not limited to.. should do it.
15:32:40 <allanj> sh: make it too formal
15:33:41 <ScottM> I think we just need to make sure it states that environmental factors are PHYSICAL (real world) environmetal factors and not design elements of a page
15:36:05 <allanj> sm: we are not trying to be all inclusive. clutter is a design aspect, not a physical environmental factor.
15:37:48 <ScottM> •Clarity of the device, for example, dots-per-inch (dpi)
15:38:33 <allanj> ... we need to clarify that we are talking about Physical environment
15:39:39 <laura> Physical Environment: http://www.wmpho.org.uk/topics/page.aspx?id=1538
15:39:45 <shawn> I'm OK with "Environmental factors include:"
15:39:55 <shawn> I'm OK with "Physical environmental factors include:"
15:40:00 <ScottM> Environmental (Physical) Factors include: ?
15:40:00 <Wayne> present+ Wayne
15:40:57 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: We will create or extend a user need regarding clutter.
15:41:19 <ScottM> Visual clutter on a web page = ADS
15:41:19 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:41:37 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
15:42:12 <Wayne> zakim, open item 3
15:42:12 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Disclaimer draft (action-58)  https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/67" taken up [from allanj]
15:42:15 <shawn> action items in GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/73#issuecomment-224936049
15:42:15 <trackbot> Error finding 'items'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:46:38 <shawn> How about something simple like this for a short paragraph right under the [h2] Overview of Low Vision?:
15:46:38 <shawn> This section provides basic information about low vision related to information and communication technologies. It is not intended to provide formal definitions of terms. It is intended to provide background information for understanding user experiences and user needs.
15:46:55 <shawn> in this section: http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#overview-of-low-vision
15:47:37 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: Adopt disclaimer language above.
15:49:07 <Wayne> zakim, open item 4
15:49:07 <Zakim> agendum 4. "User Access to Necessary Customization" taken up [from allanj]
15:49:37 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/74
15:51:01 <shawn> WD: ok if acceprt principle that users adjust doc to meet their needs. that's kinda an overriding guideline
15:51:24 <shawn> "Users must be capable of adjusting the visual interface to meet their exact visual needs."
15:54:08 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn consider how the main point of <https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/74> is addressed in current User Needs doc - probably in text under 3. User Needs <http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#user-needs> (see also 9 June minutes)
15:54:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Consider how the main point of <https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/74> is addressed in current user needs doc - probably in text under 3. user needs <http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#user-needs> (see also 9 june minutes) [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-06-16].
15:54:38 <shawn> ... [Wayne more about this GitHub issue]
15:56:34 <allanj> wd: interface with COGA and Personalizations
15:57:02 <Wayne> zakim, close item 4
15:57:02 <Zakim> agendum 4, User Access to Necessary Customization, closed
15:57:03 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:57:03 <Zakim> 2. Section 2.5: Functional Vision https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/73 [from allanj]
15:57:20 <Wayne> zakim, open item 5
15:57:20 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Begin working on SC - acceptance criteria (review), walk the gap analysis (proposed - WCAG needs SC before Dec 2016)" taken up [from allanj]
15:59:04 <allanj> Acceptance Criteria WCAG 2.1 (very draft)
15:59:05 <allanj>     Ensure that requirements may be applied across technologies including markup and not markup, open and proprietary, web technologies.
15:59:07 <allanj>     All success criteria will be mapped to the function requirements it aims to meet.
15:59:08 <allanj>     Ensure that the conformance requirements are testable (Automatic or human)
15:59:10 <allanj>     Utilize the WCAG 2.0 A/AA/AAA structure.
15:59:11 <allanj>     Success criteria need to be as broad as possible without becoming a 'catch-all' for any given requirement. (But the wording must be such that it CAN apply to all — or wording has to limit its application to what it should (can) apply to  )
15:59:13 <allanj>     Candidate success criteria will be peer reviewed and if too great in scope will be broken into more granular requirements.
15:59:14 <allanj>     They must not be technology specific.
15:59:16 <Wayne> aj: W3 wants to get out the requirements for 2.1 by the end of 2017 (DEC)
15:59:16 <allanj>     They should be worded as statements that are true or false.
15:59:17 <allanj>     They are statements of 'what is'- when the statement is true - then you have met the SC.
15:59:43 <allanj> All in proposal stage - Strawman
15:59:58 <Wayne> aj: The proposed structure for SCs is still in draft (straw person)
16:00:52 <Wayne> aj: Proposal: Starting with gaps try to work in SCs to fill in the gaps.
16:01:36 <Wayne> aj: WCAG is going to want WCAG SCs. However, we should write UA changes while we are at it.
16:03:13 <allanj> wd: user need element navigation apart from AT
16:04:24 <allanj> sh: user needs X, that need may be met by UAs, given current state of real world do these things still need to be in WCAG.
16:04:27 <Wayne> sh: We need to talk about. In the real word people need. Do user needs need to be located in WCAG.
16:05:42 <Wayne> sh: Users can do X then content developers can determines if UA does it.
16:05:43 <ScottM> Content autors are not locking things down more now than less
16:05:48 <allanj> accessibility supported covers "until user agents to X"
16:06:22 <ScottM> sorry content authors are locking things down more now than not
16:07:11 <allanj> wd: most of the user needs can be accomplished in HTML. If a site meets responsive design, then can replace style sheet to do whatever through media queries.
16:07:36 <allanj> ... technology independent. must have structured content.
16:07:59 <allanj> ... UAs have lots of information about structure.
16:08:16 <allanj> ... many are look to WCAG:Next
16:08:44 <allanj> ... currently the burden is on the author
16:08:48 <ScottM> the average user is going to be totally dependant upon their UA or AT to make customizations
16:09:26 <allanj> sh: what can be done vs what the average user can do
16:10:02 <ScottM> authors are locking things down blocking UA changes even with responsive design, for example some users are using desktops at 1024x768 and then getting tablet pages
16:10:07 <shawn> not thinking of adding burden to authors
16:10:28 <allanj> wd: if you design your page properly much is easy to do.
16:11:46 <allanj> sm: even with responsive design, authors are locking more things down. Making it difficult to change
16:13:03 <Wayne> SM: Authors lock down displays. The issue is that the average user is going to be dependent on the user agent.
16:13:04 <allanj> sm: authors looking at screen dimensions not UA identification for presentation
16:13:57 <Wayne> ..: Some users need low resolution. As a result where the RWD force him onto mobile. Things are locking things down.
16:14:28 <Wayne> ja: In many cases RWD can be inflexible design.
16:14:44 <Wayne> sh: We need to give the user the choice.
16:14:45 <allanj> sh: user should be given the choice as to what view the user wants at whatever resolution
16:15:06 <Wayne> sm: BART in sf gives you a mobile site.
16:15:18 <Wayne> q+
16:15:56 <Wayne> SM: They did RWD, the user must go through a lot of UI oberhead.
16:16:02 <allanj> THIS IS A GOOD SC - authors should give users a choice of view (desktop, tablet, mobile) depending on viewport size
16:16:28 <Wayne> SM: At lower screen size functionality is lost.
16:17:33 <allanj> wd: agrees with SM. things have gotten very complicated with stylesheets
16:17:40 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn think if choice of view in a responsive design (desktop, tablet, mobile) is a user need?
16:17:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Think if choice of view in a responsive design (desktop, tablet, mobile) is a user need? [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-06-16].
16:18:18 <allanj> +1 to action 63
16:19:06 <allanj> wd: users will never write their own stylesheets. just like they dont write their on screen reader. Users need a profile.
16:21:39 <allanj> wd: authors cannot limit users ability to change visual environment
16:22:45 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn consider with action 63 "authors cannot limit users ability to change visual environment"
16:22:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Consider with action 63 "authors cannot limit users ability to change visual environment" [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-06-16].
16:26:36 <ScottM> +1
16:27:12 <ScottM> Do we have a list of tese SCs we need to write?
16:29:14 <allanj> https://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/WC-UA-alignment.html
16:33:20 <Wayne> trackbot, end meeting
16:33:20 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:33:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jim, Wayne, shawn, Laura, Scott
16:33:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:33:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:33:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:33:29 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn consider how the main point of <https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/74> is addressed in current User Needs doc - probably in text under 3. User Needs <http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#user-needs> (see also 9 June minutes) [1]
16:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-irc#T15-54-08
16:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn think if choice of view in a responsive design (desktop, tablet, mobile) is a user need? [2]
16:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-irc#T16-17-40
16:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn consider with action 63 "authors cannot limit users ability to change visual environment" [3]
16:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-lvtf-irc#T16-22-45